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Non Piano Board => Anything but piano => Topic started by: donjuan on November 13, 2006, 01:22:40 AM

Title: The God Warrior
Post by: donjuan on November 13, 2006, 01:22:40 AM
In case you missed that infamous episode of Trading Spouses, here is your oppportunity to see the craziest woman on earth:



none of you are like that.... I hope?
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 13, 2006, 02:29:46 AM
at least she stands for something.  what if she said to her children - do whatever you want.  i think in parenting you have to take some responsibility for what you allow your family to do.  of course, easier said than done when they become older.  but, when they are little - you can sort of guide what they do and where they go and what they watch.

generally, the view of the harry potter generation is that the children are in charge and it's really little to moot point what the parents think.  they are somehow cast in the shadows and are of relatively little importance to their life.  as if they can figure out everything on their own. 

imo, a bit of guidance is need until about age 12 (when you know everything).  then you start making suggestions and hope for the best.  but, in some bigger decisions - that would be life protecting for instance - you tell them how it is.  for instance, my daughter who is turning 12 went to a dance at the YMCA (which is a chaperoned dance).  about 1/2 hour into the dance she calls and says 'we want to go to the highschool football game.'  i was assuming she meant that i would take her and her friend and be a chaperone.  come to find out - she wanted me to drop them off.  i said 'are you kidding me.'  so then she says 'well, at least drop my friend off.  her dad knows and will pick her up later.'  i said, 'no way.  i'm taking her home and her dad can take her to the game.'  they complained that i was old fashioned, etc. etc. - but i don't want to be the last person to see the girl. 

sometimes as a parent you just do what you gotta do.  i try not to make a big deal out of it.  but, i do stick to what i say as best as i can.  somehow 16 doesn't even seem that old anymore.  if the bible says 'satan goes around as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour' - he's not always polite and nice in the end.  sort of like the end of a drug addicts life.  completely unable to direct one's own life free from demonic influence.  it is allowing another being to direct and take over your thoughts by thinking that yours are not as good.  i say - liberty or death.  keep your thoughts your own and 'yes!' rebuke the devil for what he is.  a liar and a deciever from the beginning.  don't start down the path - and if you say 'yes' to one thing - rebuke it later and tell him to go away and that you have better things to do.  if there's one thing people don't need - it is satan's confusing influence in their lives.

ps i also believe that the scripture that says 'the peace of God - which passes all understanding - will keep your hearts and minds thru Christ Jesus.'  He doesn't possess us - but 'dwells in us' as a sort of guide to our thoughts.  we can choose to follow this guide or not - but it never says to us 'you MUST do this' - especially if it is hurtful to ourselves or others.

also, the Spirit of God gives you a feeling of 'rightness.'  not something to be necessarily overly proud of - but just joyful.  you know that there is no condemnation in being a child of God.  even if we slip - we can pray for forgiveness. with satan there is nothing but anger, revenge, hatred, and maliciousness.  no forgiveness.  he is the father of lies - and a murderer.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 13, 2006, 02:47:40 AM
I think I saw a little clip of this woman on Dutch tv. She is crazy. Parents lead by example. This kind of behavior will damage the children.


She stands up for something? You mean she uses the word 'god'. If someone stands up for killing fluffy animals will you say "Well, at least she stands up for something"?

If I believed in god I would be sure that this woman was possesed by the devil.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 13, 2006, 02:57:27 AM
i think she is well intentioned - in that she does not want to allow something which is seemingly taking over without it being judgementally her decision as a parent.  if you allow your children to rule you -what use is it to be a parent?  i think parents have a right to make decisions - no matter what the media portrays parents as.

perhaps they use videos such as this to ridicule christian parents.  perhaps you need to see a clip of a family eating dinner together and talking.  there are many christian parents that do not get attention because their behavior with their family isn't necessarily 'newsworthy.'  and, yet - their children are blessed.  they avoid a lot of traumas that other children might go thru without parental protection.

ask any child living on the streets - 'if you were to do it again, would you listen to your parents?'  i bet they would.  the trade off is that children don't make the same decisions and don't understand where the choices lead.  for instance, if you let them get into demon worship - where will that lead?  possibly to satanic rituals and becoming actually posessed.  what parent would willingly want that for their child?

if more  people visited prisons, they'd know what satanism is about.  there are a lot of cults everywhere.  in california we had people who went around killing pets - beheading them and leaving the bodies out in the street for people to drive by.  if this isn't wierd thinking - or satanic - i really don't know what is.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 13, 2006, 03:07:17 AM
As I said, at least people killing pets stand for something... Their acts were probably well intended.

This is not just a christian parent. This also an insane one. This isn't a mere delusion. This isn't just: issues.

Of course reality tv isn't to be trusted, it can all be staged, acted and fake, but if this is real this person is just nuts.

It has nothing to do with letting children rule you or not. These childrens will get traumas.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ada on November 13, 2006, 04:58:11 AM
i think she is well intentioned -

she's not well intentioned pianistimo, she's obviously mentally ill.

She should be getting appropriate medical care,  not being exploited by reality TV.

All your talk about demons and satan and possession, it's all crazy talk too.

I am sure you are neither a psychotic paranoid delusional screeching harridan nor morbidly obese, but you sure sound like you go to the same church.

That woman's behaviour amounts to emotional child abuse. Did you see how terrified that little girl was? I'm sorry, I just can't believe you would defend that sort of conduct by a parent. That is downright evil.

Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: rob47 on November 13, 2006, 05:51:29 AM
just do what you gotta do.

Such true words; pianistimo you and i are perhaps now at peace :)
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 13, 2006, 10:54:54 AM
glad we're at peace, rob47.  i'm not arguing that this woman might have more issues than satan worship.  perhaps in her own life she had some difficulties and despite her good intentions - she cannot express them to her daughter in a softer way because she feels too passionately about what she is saying.  perhaps she has even had mental problems - but that doesn't negate her belief structure.  in fact, she might be a newer christian and having come out of things that badly affected her and not want it for her daughter.  Christ put out seven demons from mary magdalene.  He was not judgemental of people who were demon posessed.  but, in the bible - he warns us to protect our minds and keep them 'swept.'  otherwise, more come and take the place of the ones that left.  as i see it, our minds are precious property of ourselves and a 'temple' of the Holy Spirit.  the place where it resides.  if we value the Holy Spirit - we then realize that it cannot live with satan - so we cannot be double-minded.  the scripture that i quoted above about 'guard your hearts and minds thru Christ Jesus,' to me, means that if we are dwelling on His message (the bible) and thinking about things that are true, right, and pure - then Satan would not even want to dwell with us.  and, if He attempts to bother our thoughts or use someone to 'get' to us - we can rebuke Satan in Jesus name (whether out loud or quietly) and he will be forced to leave. 

ps what i find sort of interesting is that those who are critical of people who in real life (or even supposedly) cast out demons (using the example of Christ who rebuked even one of his disciples for letting Satan get to his mind - peter) criticize the fact that they believe it to be true - while satanists have 'incantations' much more ridiculous sounding and longer.  it's as though that god has to be persuaded by much ritual -whereas the one true God is straightforward and to the point.   
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 13, 2006, 11:25:39 AM
As I do not have a sound facility on my computer I am unable to offer much comment, but even seeing the clip without sound suggests something pretty much akin to "ada"'s assessment. The world is not short of dangerous nutcases of all kinds.

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: Kassaa on November 13, 2006, 02:12:53 PM
OMG, I can't actually believe that you are still defending such a brainwashing and brainwashed retard Pianistimo.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 13, 2006, 02:36:15 PM
I think Pianistimo isn't very different from the woman in the video.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: donjuan on November 13, 2006, 03:16:47 PM
post deleted
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 13, 2006, 03:35:05 PM
She must also be dying because of her obesity.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 13, 2006, 05:03:17 PM
you guys know very little about statistics.  (so i, but no matter)  to have a sampling of a group you need more than one person. 

why don't you go around and ask other individuals on the forum what they believe and then set them up, too.  criticize their beliefs and make it that they don't listen to anyone else because they won't change their views. 

narrow mindsets don't allow anyone else to have a view.  i'm not sure exactly what your views even are donjuan.  you are so busy putting my views down that you don't say what YOu believe.  do you believe in God?  or are you in effect saying that you think worshipping Satan is A OK.  just remember, we are judged by our words at the ressurrection of the dead.  obviously, if a person does or doesn't believe this - it may or may not affect them right now.  but, later IF you find it true - you'll be eating the words of Christ himself - to REBUKE Satan instead of welcoming him.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ramseytheii on November 13, 2006, 05:18:43 PM
I was going to comment on your thing about evolution, but you edited it out the second I hit the quote button.  Any reason why, eh pianitisimo??  ???  8)

Walter Ramsey



you guys know very little about statistics.  (so i, but no matter)  to have a sampling of a group you need more than one person. 

why don't you go around and ask other individuals on the forum what they believe and then set them up, too.  criticize their beliefs and make it that they don't listen to anyone else because they won't change their views. 

narrow mindsets don't allow anyone else to have a view.  i'm not sure exactly what your views even are donjuan.  you are so busy putting my views down that you don't say what YOu believe.  do you believe in God?  or are you in effect saying that you think worshipping Satan is A OK.  just remember, we are judged by our words at the ressurrection of the dead.  obviously, if a person does or doesn't believe this - it may or may not affect them right now.  but, later IF you find it true - you'll be eating the words of Christ himself - to REBUKE Satan instead of welcoming him.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 13, 2006, 05:32:41 PM
She is talking glibberish again.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 13, 2006, 05:46:20 PM
ok.....why do people on the forum purposely bring things up to irritate pianistimo and make her go on the offensive?

1) they just enjoy controversy?

2) they enjoy upsetting her and trying to disrespect here beliefs?


There are a lot of us on this forum who are Christians who have strong beliefs, which are not fanatical.. we are choosing to not debate anymore since the real reasons for these subjects are not for debating or discussion but for others to put down our Christian beliefs.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: donjuan on November 13, 2006, 06:10:40 PM
post deleted
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 13, 2006, 06:12:16 PM
ok.....why do people on the forum purposely bring things up to irritate pianistimo and make her go on the offensive?


I love her to bits, but she does make herself an easy target.

I would be saddened if the intention of this thread was to irritate her.

Thal :'(
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 13, 2006, 06:14:09 PM
if you really don't believe in God anymore...then why don juan do you even care to discuss the issue?  are you trying to persuade yourself that you really don't believe? maybe deep down you do believe and you are trying to convince yourself by logical means that you don't.    It's all about faith:you either have it or you don't!    I choose to have it!  
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 13, 2006, 06:37:32 PM
ok.....why do people on the forum purposely bring things up to irritate pianistimo and make her go on the offensive?

Isn't she responsible for her own behavior? You seem to imply she isn't. Or do you mean we should just ignore a mentally ill person instead of making fun of her?

Quote
if you really don't believe in God anymore...then why don juan do you even care to discuss the issue?

What does belief have to do with it? Only Christians can respond to other Christians? One shouldn't question or ask what a christian says if the person itself isn't a Christian him/herself?

Why can't non-believers be interested in religion? Religion is such a huge part of the world. It also causes violence. Can't we oppose muslim terrorists when we don't believe Muhammed is god's prophet?

Quote
maybe deep down you do believe and you are trying to convince yourself by logical means that you don't. 

This doesn't make any sense.

Also, this isn't about religion or about god. But about a crazy person being abused for TV. And about a fellow crazy Christian defending her for no reason at all.

Even religious people should generally be reasonable enough to recognise there is something wrong with this woman.

Also, if someone 'put down' Christianity using arguments does it matter what the intention was? Either the arguments are wrong or right, strong or weak. Christianity should be 'put down' if reason demands it. Just like slavery, like nationalism, like xenophobia/racism, etc. And if the arguments are weak they can be countered.

If you want to avoid having your religion challenged; keep it private. If you think religion  shouldn't be challenged because it is religion; welcome in the 21th century. Every idea needs to be challenged. Otherwise we will have no idea how good or bad that idea is.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 13, 2006, 07:29:26 PM
This woman is obviously as mad as a hatter. Children growing up within that atmosphere are going to be mentally scared for life. religion should not be forced upon anyone. My children are free to make up their own mind. if they ask me my view i will tell them, but add, "this is only my view, not yours". their grand father was a vicar, and they spoke to him on the subject too.

there is really no place for religion these days, because we can explain most things through science. we don't need a divine being to be responsible for all the things we didn't understand.

personally, my opinion only, i think that any truely sane person cannot believe in god. but if they do, and don't force their beliefs on other people, or harm people in the cause, let them get on with it.

Cheers,

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 13, 2006, 07:36:21 PM
I agree with you. But you need to be careful. I think religion is a delusion. But surely having a delusion doesn't mean they are insane. Sure, they aren't 'one hundred percent sane', but probably no one is.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 13, 2006, 07:45:32 PM
yeah, i suppose its similar to the question, "are you normal?"

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 13, 2006, 08:05:46 PM
i think that many people are influenced by the media and by what their peers think.  for Christians it is different.  that is what makes them appear different.  but, probably not as different as this woman.  the first tip that is off is the fact that she is willing to 'trade spouses.'  i don't think this was a good idea.  to spread the faith - one shouldn't even consider it.  but, people get stuck sometimes on making money - and perhaps this woman made some money - but she also made a point.  albeit - one in a state of anger.  there are several strikes against her - but who are we to choose if she is insane, or just angry, or bothered.  God is her judge.  nowdays the media puts all kinds of things on tv for us to just stare at and make judgements about.  it's kind of pointless.  i mean - it's almost on the same par as deciding who the next swimsuit models are going to be.  it's all a matter of perspective and what one finds 'beautiful.'

what if God doesn't look on outward appearance, perfection of being, or even complete understanding - as a basis for judgement.  what if He judges fairly and considers each of us right where we are?  perhaps He is much different than our harsh judgements of each other (and, yes, mine of the pope).  sometimes leaving judgement to God is the best - because who can really know a person's mind.  the media can portray anyone in a bad light.  or a good one (for a person who might be shady).

i think it is a misnomer to throw the 'baby out with the bathwater' because of the hypocricy that we see in many churches.  just because a few are hypocritical doesn't mean that God works in that way.  He is far beyond us in love.  so, if He made us to conform to His image - then we shouldn't worry about the media's image.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 13, 2006, 08:18:44 PM
well pianistimo i guess you and i are insane since we believe there was a creator of this universe,instead of believing that everything just kinda "happened" and boom, here we are! Ok, i'll choose to be insane and be a Christian, how about you?
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 13, 2006, 08:22:35 PM
look, don't put yourself down. we are all entittled to our opinions, are we not??

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 13, 2006, 09:49:12 PM
agreed with jpianoflorida and shortyshort.  i was meditating (i know, uh oh) - and was thinking about how people accused various disciples in Jesus day of being crazy.  it's really that the accusers acknowledge the government of God is a challenge to the entire world.  when Jesus was born - He was born to be King.  nowdays, democracy is most popular.  but, what if ... what if we will return to a monarchy.  but, this time - to one that is fair and just.  if you read the bible and believe what it says - you kinda see handel's point of composing the messiah.  everything will return to God (from which it was created - dust to dust) - and we don't really know our own outcomes excepting that we know God grants righteousness by faith.  how can any one of us determine our saneness - other than by the Word of God.

what i find interesting is that isaiah foretold Jesus coming as king - but not by assuming a position of authority, or dressing particularly well, or speaking loudly.  quite the opposite:
isa 42 'He will not cry out or raise His voice, nor make His voice heard in the street, a bruised reed He will not break, and a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish (He doesn't care about how poorly we give light - he just wants to see light); He will faithfully bring forth justice.  He will not be disheartened or crushed, until He has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law.'

but, when Christ returns he is His OWN warrior.  of course, he'll have tens of thousands of 'saints' with Him - but revelations says that He will return and every eye will see Him.   even the ones that pierced Him.  rev 19 'and i saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 

and His eyes are a flame of fire, and upon His head are many diadems; and He has a name written upon Him which no one knows except Himself.  And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and His name is called The Word of God.  and the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.  and from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.  and on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "King of Kings, and Lord of Lords."

some of this dream of John's is probably symbolic - but we know that Jesus himself said that He would return to the earth. specifically to the mount of olives in jerusalem.  that every eye would see Him.  and, that it would be at a time when people least expect it - and that we should be 'awake' spiritually - and not fall asleep.  when He came the first time - his disciples fell asleep during the hours of prayer that He asked them to keep watch.  this, to me, is symbolic of the last days - when people will fall asleep and not recognize the times.  just as noah warned people - there are many ministries nowdays warning people that God is patient and longsufferring - but that His day of judgement is a not a figurative thing.  it is real and believable.  not something insane.  what we choose today - may affect and increase or limit our choices tommorrow. 

choose life and good.  that is always the choice God sets before us - but He never chooses for us.  otherwise people would say that He is a dictator.  But, in effect - the results for sinning are death - so there's not a whole lot of fudge room.  He's a good parent.  kind of like the ones that tell you - 'ok, if you don't want to live by the rules then you're out on the street.'  we might miss out on a long term relationship with our own Father the Creator - if we deny Him now.  at least consider His existence and how it might impact you in the future.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 13, 2006, 09:52:58 PM
good points pianisitimo... think about these

what about the wright brothers?    Did people think they were crazy when they said they were going to build a machine that would fly?

how about Thomas Edison?

how about people in Jesus time: what if you told them we would build a spacecraft that would take us to the moon?     

Think about all the inventors and how people told them they were crazy and look at what they accomplished!


In all of these, someone had to have faith in what they believed!.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 13, 2006, 10:13:44 PM
Yes, but they had faith in themselves, surely, not god.

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 13, 2006, 10:24:21 PM
something else to think about is found in matthew13:6-37 - but specifically verse 13 - 'and you will be hated by all on account of My name, but the one that endures to the end, he shall be saved...'  right before this verse we have parents accusing children - and brothers accusing brothers - and children accusing parents - and them being persecuted for loving God.  it has and is already happening in many countries.  the Word of God is a threat to governments that want to be 'world' dominating.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 13, 2006, 10:25:58 PM
Yes, but they had faith in themselves, surely, not god.

Shorty

how do you know that?
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 13, 2006, 10:28:55 PM
What's that all about???

I'm very sorry, but why do religious people always quote from their big book????

And, jp, how do you know they had faith in god???

Shorty

P.S. I don't want to fall out with anyone here. (just my opinions)
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 13, 2006, 10:38:00 PM
What's that all about???

I'm very sorry, but why do religious people always quote from their big book????

And, jp, how do you know they had faith in god???

Shorty

P.S. I don't want to fall out with anyone here. (just my opinions)

I don't know they had faith anymore than you know they didn't have faith in God.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowolfi on November 13, 2006, 10:45:38 PM
Ok i admit I don't really understand why exactly this lady is so exasperated. I simply don't understand what she's talking about. She's nutty as a fruitcake, that's what I think. She needs to calm down. If that is a permanent state of her she needs professional help. And if the people around her are her family they also need professional help.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 13, 2006, 10:47:31 PM
the god warrior or jp?????

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 13, 2006, 10:48:36 PM
I think i need professional help after reading this thread.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 13, 2006, 10:50:05 PM
i viewed the video quite a while ago - and my impression was that she did not want others to influence her or her daughter - to believe in the occult.  i believe she is right.  she may seem crazy because of her mannerisms - but her points are good ones.  she doesn't want to defer her right as a parent to make decisions that are correct for her own family - even though she has no authority over another person's family (which is right).

suppose that it is the same for christians today.  we cannot tell others how to live - but if they challenge us or our views - at least we can stand up for what we believe is right.  as you get older you realize that if you make no stand at all - you are basically agreeing with the status quo.  people in jeremiah's day must have thought he was out of his mind when he pulled some people's hair.  i forget what it was over - but i remember the pulled hair part.  he was trying to get them to listen to God because God allowed him to see the future of their choices.  i don't know any prophet who has gone that far today - but it does say that in the 'last days' there will be two witnesses who will speak the Word of God - (rev 11:6) 'these have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.'  this all seems very strange behavior to us today - but what if it is no different than the plagues of egypt (which we given for worshipping false gods and the stubborness of the pharoah not to let the israelites worship the one true God). 

this seems like superstition to us - until we realize that God is King over the entire physical universe.  to turn water into anything He likes is no great feat.  when He walked the earth He turned it to wine.

what seems crazy to us - is just reality for God.  He has power.  He uses it for good.  If we listen to Him we are on the winning team.  and yes, it is something to have fear for (although i fail to see where 'asses' come in).  i mean if you are only worried about your 'ass' - then you'll probably go and do something that makes your 'ass' feel like it has a place in the world.  but - i don't think God is only concerned about our 'asses.'  i think he's thinking entire bodies.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 13, 2006, 10:53:41 PM
Is the occult much different to christianity????

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 13, 2006, 10:55:16 PM
Is the occult much different to christianity????

Shorty

You are gonna get a long response to that one old chap.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 13, 2006, 10:57:53 PM
hello thab,

oh well, I just want them to see that we all have the right to think for ourselves.

How do they know that they aren't actually worshiping the wrong thing??

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 13, 2006, 10:59:26 PM
thalb, sorry

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 13, 2006, 11:08:02 PM
...instead of believing that everything just kinda "happened" and boom, here we are!

Saying this is the religious equivalent of atheists saying: "You believe in satan."
What you describe is exactly the opposite of what science says.

And science and atheism are two totally different things. Atheism doesn't depend on science one bit.

I also don't understand how you can critizise those that critisize insane people, not even religious people, because scientists had the same faith that an average religious person had. First off, we weren't even talking about religion.

Second, science never made any progress because people wanted to keep 'faith' in their dogma's. This means that they couldn't be challenged. Science challenges everything.

If a scientist has faith then this person may end up wasting his or her entire career. Look at string theory right now. Some people 'believe' in string theory. It is very probable that string theory is a complete dead end. If so then all the people in the field all wasted their effort. They will never find out anything.

If you have too much faith you can't do an experiment. In science it is not that easy to really understand something. It takes a lot of critical thinking, thinking outside the box. It is so easy to fool yourself. Humans are so superstitious it is very hard to avoid. Even the smartest people in history made these kinds of mistakes. Some of the smartest people in the world have absurd non-religious delusions.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 13, 2006, 11:19:18 PM
i think christians are the most likely ones to believe that satan truly exists.  if people who dabble in the occult actually thought he did exist - they probably wouldn't experiment.  i don't seek to condemn athiests or say that they would even believe that satan exists either.  i have a friend back in arizona who studies astronomy and different things and agrees to disagree with me on religious issues.  he just doesn't see God the way i do.  i see God in everything.  i see God as what is holding the entire universe together.  he sees only the physical realities and isn't sure how it all came together, if there is a God, and wants proof.

even one of the disciples didn't believe Christ until he saw the wounds in Christ's hands.  but, there is a blessing in the bible for those who believe in faith.  faith seems like a crazy thing.  agreed.  prometheus is simply stating what he feels is obvious to him.  we can't see God - therefore He is not.  but, we cannot see electricity.  we cannot see wind.  we know that they have properties - and we can feel them.  God, to me, is the same.  we pray for protection, wisdom, healing, etc. - and when we see direct answers we think 'hmm.  let's try that again.'  so after a few hundred times - we say 'this is very cool.'

i don't worship God just to get answers to prayer - but because i have realized His immense love for every being that He has created.  we are created in His image and are basically His children.  He can do much more for us than our physical parents could ever dream.  He can recieve us from the dead.  He has power over death.  also, i believe that He created a future for us after death.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 13, 2006, 11:23:21 PM
I have a strong faith in God..I personally know he exists! I have no doubt.   I am however bowing out of this discussion because it's really pointless.   It's been interesting.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 13, 2006, 11:41:16 PM
to me, what people call "God", is just nature.

 
Quote
I personally know he exists! I have no doubt.
How do you know that?? I can just as easily say "I know he/she does not exist".

Quote
prometheus is simply stating what he feels is obvious to him.  we can't see God - therefore He is not.
You can't see god, yet you believe he is! why is this? Because you've been told to.

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 13, 2006, 11:49:59 PM
It is not that one cannot see god. It is that god has no observable influence on our reality; which makes her existance basically irrelevant.

Since there is no evidence one has to assume she doesn't exist.

Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 13, 2006, 11:51:03 PM
for me it has been life experiences leading me to know Christ.  i believe, as jpianoflorida believes, that i truly have a connection in prayer and bible reading to God.  i don't see visions, or feel that kind of connection - but i do feel 'inspiration.'  it's hard to explain as anything but joy.  happiness in any sort of situation - good or bad.  if it is good - i attribute it to God's blessing.  if it is bad - i feel that God expects me to rely on Him for help when i have done all that i can to remedy the situation.  i don't think that God is a 'cureall' formula.  i think he likes creativity, spontenaity, work...but also - that we would pray and ask for advice.  nothing really less than a parent would ask.  that we not neglect Him in our lives and pretend He isn't there.  obviously, to me, if He weren't there - we wouldn't be here.  nothing lives, in my understanding, without God first having made it alive.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 14, 2006, 12:02:34 AM
Is your God the same God as the Muslim God???

If so, then why are you killing each other about it??

If not, are there two Gods?? Or more??

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 14, 2006, 12:05:09 AM
Of course it's the same god. Muslims also follow Christ. Its one of the most important prophets of the god of Abraham in their eyes. They just think Jesus was a human, not 1/3 of the triad.

Still, there are thousands of other gods.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 14, 2006, 12:14:46 AM

Still, there are thousands of other gods.

I'm glad about that. I wouldn't want to think I was just ignoring only one God. I can sleep soundly tonight.

And so to bed, Goodnight all.

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowolfi on November 14, 2006, 12:23:30 AM
the god warrior or jp?????

Shorty

Gosh, the god warrior of course! :o
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 14, 2006, 11:24:00 AM
God doesn't really need anyone to be a warrior for Him.  He's beyond our reach and scope.  we're smaller than ants to him.  and, yet, He came to be with us for a little while on this earth.  that shows supreme love.  also, He willingly let us kill him 'as a sheep to the slaughter.'  that's how much we appreciated it the first time.  the second time - i believe - will be earth shattering.  no one will deny God's power at the judgement according to the bible - as 'every knee will bow.'  i believe that is why God made our knees in the first place.  too bad He has to make us bow - when we should be lovingly worshipping him willingly for all the good He does and for being gracious to us.

and, yes, I believe the one true God is Allah of the muslims.  the Great One of the indians.  the Mighty Spirit.  i do not believe buddism - because obviously that 'god' is stone.  buddah is nothing but an idol.  we are told not to worship god's made of wood or stone - but a God not made by human hands.  seems a rather stupid thing to worship something created anyways.  especially, if we came first - and then created it.  i think people like things to hang on to and feel - beads, statues, pictures - but God is above it all.  He says to worship him in spirit and in truth.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 14, 2006, 12:18:04 PM
according to the bible - as 'every knee will bow.'  i believe that is why God made our knees in the first place.

Sorry, if you really believe that then you really are as mad as the "God Warrior"

I thought it was so we didn't walk around like penguins.

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: donjuan on November 14, 2006, 04:41:51 PM
God doesn't really need anyone to be a warrior for Him.  He's beyond our reach and scope.  we're smaller than ants to him.  and, yet, He came to be with us for a little while on this earth.  that shows supreme love.  also, He willingly let us kill him 'as a sheep to the slaughter.'  that's how much we appreciated it the first time.  the second time - i believe - will be earth shattering.  no one will deny God's power at the judgement according to the bible - as 'every knee will bow.'  i believe that is why God made our knees in the first place.  too bad He has to make us bow - when we should be lovingly worshipping him willingly for all the good He does and for being gracious to us.

and, yes, I believe the one true God is Allah of the muslims.  the Great One of the indians.  the Mighty Spirit.  i do not believe buddism - because obviously that 'god' is stone.  buddah is nothing but an idol.  we are told not to worship god's made of wood or stone - but a God not made by human hands.  seems a rather stupid thing to worship something created anyways.  especially, if we came first - and then created it.  i think people like things to hang on to and feel - beads, statues, pictures - but God is above it all.  He says to worship him in spirit and in truth.
you preach and you preach and you preach.  and it's pointless because you are completely devoid of reason, and are incapable of staying on topic.  Sorry, I thought we could have a rational discussion here, but that seems to be impossible..
I think Pianistimo isn't very different from the woman in the video.
when I read this, I immediately agreed.  However, I wanted pianistimo to say something to make me think otherwise.  Something like "that woman's out of her ***ing mind, and she is an insult to christians everywhere."  No such luck..
i do not believe buddism - because obviously that 'god' is stone.  buddah is nothing but an idol.
Of course you don't believe it; youre a christian!  But can't you see that you see Buddhism the same way athiests see christianity?

I remember in another thread, you also expressed your objection to voodoo magic and how they don't wear enough clothes in Africa.  and now you bash Buddhism.  You are insensitive to others' cultures, yet you expect everyone to listen to what you have to say.

Good day, God Warrior. (https://www.dailypepper.com/mt/archives/marguerite_perrin.jpg)
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: shortyshort on November 14, 2006, 04:51:14 PM
Yes,

I was on this thread for ages last night, and not once was there a "well, I may be wrong, but this is my opinion", Just , "I know I'm right, you are all wrong".

I know all Christians are not like that, but the ones that are, are very annoying bigots.

Shorty
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 14, 2006, 05:44:23 PM
either you believe in the one TRUE God or you believe in false gods made of imagination, wood, and stone.  why would i want to say that i don't believe what i believe.  why do you want so badly to put me in a bad light for simply believing what i do?  i am only answering your questions.  i did not start this thread.  in fact, i don't recall starting any religious thread.  btw, i do not look like or act like the woman you mentione d- but i feel you are insensitive to people who are disabled or mentally unstable - using them as a comparison to all christians is also very unfair.

what if i used a monk who was 99 to represent buddism.  what if he mutterred nonsense.  would that be a representative of the buddist faith in totality.  i think you all are the ones without reason.  take a better sampling of the people you are talking about.  and, don't judge them for having an opinion.

it is not my place to tell people what to believe or not believe - so why should i offer apologies.  how do i know if i've affected anyone's personal decision.  we all have the right to free speech.  are you saying now that religious people have no right to talk because they are all 'mental.'  i think you lack an understanding of first amendment rights.  did you know that the founding father's of usa often talked (though not all agreed on religion) about religious topics and the bible.  in fact, the first printing of the bible here was an act of congress.  nowdays 'shame shame' to have any sort of belief in God.  i'm sorry - but i don't buy it.  go and convince others at university.  you'll have more luck - because what is popular is what is right.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 14, 2006, 06:58:24 PM
Buddhism isn't a religion. They don't have gods or supernatural powers. It is like Taoism and confucianism.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 14, 2006, 07:59:51 PM
budda, duh.  that's who started it.  worshipping budda.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: lisztisforkids on November 14, 2006, 08:02:52 PM
budda, duh.  that's who started it.  worshipping budda.

 
 Ignorant.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 14, 2006, 08:19:11 PM
my bro was in thailand for a couple of years.  i'm aware of buddism and that they are into 'mysticism.'  also, there are altars to budda where candles are lit and prayers are said.  what is the problem? as i see it - the question is - is your 'god' real?  if he/she is to you - i suppose that's all that matters.

the elijah of the bible took the prophets of baal to task one day and said - 'ok.  if your god/s are real - then prove it.  they offerred many sacrifices.  cut themselves.  did many things to appease the 'gods.'  some things were similar to christianity - but more involved.  more self flagellating.  religous appearing.  robes, etc. 

did you know that God sees through all this.  i'm not here to say anything more than what you are asking me.  prove your god/s are real!  what makes them real to you?  how can you go to a god for 'refuge' (as buddism claims) if you claim that you aren't even worshipping a god?
 
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 14, 2006, 08:54:24 PM
Don't you understand that I also see through all this as well.


You already told that story about Elijah many times. It's a story. So what?
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowolfi on November 14, 2006, 09:04:47 PM
my bro was in thailand for a couple of years.  i'm aware of buddism and that they are into 'mysticism.'  also, there are altars to budda where candles are lit and prayers are said.  what is the problem? as i see it - the question is - is your 'god' real?  if he/she is to you - i suppose that's all that matters.




Well I'm not a Buddhist. But am sympathizing with Buddhism. For me Buddha is not a God but a very wise human being. And he is not made from stone, he was a man of flesh and blood. So i think it is no question if you worship him or not but a question if you can have any benefit from what he taught.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 14, 2006, 09:30:52 PM
there are benefits to some of what he/she teaches because some is biblically based.  the other part is anti-Christ.  does that sound warriorish?  anti-Christ because it is denying Christ his place as God and substititing a false god.  no matter - because in the end - we will see who's God is most powerful.  i challenge you all.  the real God or the false gods.  it's a duel at the end of time.  who's can save you?  the thoughts of a man - or the true thoughts of the true God? 

no more posting for me, as i feel passionate about Christianity - but i also acknowledge that what goes around comes around naturally.  perhaps you'd like to call it karma.  i call it blessing or cursing and that God is aware of our thoughts, our speech, and our actions and i believe is intimately involved in our lives more than we realize.  we don't need to meditate Him to action in us - because if we are baptized into Christ - He is already actively and powerfully working in us for good.  for salvation.  there is no other god that offers salvation.

buddist faith offers cyclical rebirths.  reincarnation.  i do not believe this because i've not fully been convinced that someone has actually lived another life.  if you told me, i was a cow, and then a ...whatever - i'd probably laugh and tell you you're insane.  so that's where we stand.  i think you're crazy - you think i'm crazy. who is crazy?
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowolfi on November 14, 2006, 09:34:53 PM
there are benefits to some of what he/she teaches because some is biblically based.  the other part is anti-Christ.  does that sound warriorish?  anti-Christ because it is denying Christ his place as God and substititing a false god.  no matter - because in the end - we will see who's God is most powerful.  i challenge you all.  the real God or the false gods.  it's a duel at the end of time.


Sorry pianistimo, you know I like you very much but here I need to disagree. Buddha lived 600 years before Christ, so nothing that he said can be "Anti-Christ".
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 14, 2006, 09:35:08 PM
There is nothing in Buddhism that denies god. There are many buddhists that are also christians.

There are many buddhist spiritual leaders that tell you to become a Christian; for example the Daila Lama.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowolfi on November 14, 2006, 09:36:51 PM
There is nothing in Buddhism that denies god. There are many buddhists that are also christians.

There are many buddhist spiritual leaders that tell you to become a Christian; for example the Daila Lama.

Well said!
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 14, 2006, 09:40:33 PM
if they are truly Christian - (and, i don't doubt that God will call them at some later point because perhaps they are more humble than true Christians) - they will not deny Christ.

pianowolfi, if Christ calls himself the Word of God - then He existed from eternity.  He was born a man -but existed before He was born. 

i realize this all seems semantic - but to me - and probably for buddists - it is real. it is definite.  and it is one way.  buddists would probably say the same.  no thank you Jesus Christ - i want to find my own eight ways to perfection (or whatever 'steps' they follow).  these are not biblically prescribed steps from Christ.  Christ did not say anything about karma.  or luck.  or any such thing.  but, He does say that if we deny that He is God, that He came in the flesh, and that He is the Word (who existed from eternity) and was ressurrected back to His Father in heaven - as the 'firstfruits' of those that are called - then - we are not Christian.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: donjuan on November 14, 2006, 09:50:11 PM
there are benefits to some of what he/she teaches because some is biblically based.  the other part is anti-Christ.  does that sound warriorish?  anti-Christ because it is denying Christ his place as God and substititing a false god.  no matter - because in the end - we will see who's God is most powerful.  i challenge you all.  the real God or the false gods.  it's a duel at the end of time.  who's can save you?  the thoughts of a man - or the true thoughts of the true God? 
Sorry pianistimo, you know I like you very much but here I need to disagree. Buddha lived 600 years before Christ, so nothing that he said can be "Anti-Christ".
pianowolfi, if Christ calls himself the Word of God - then He existed from eternity.  He was born a man -but existed before He was born. 
wow, this is like a chess match..

only pianistimo keeps changing the rules to avoid having to admit she's been pwnd.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 14, 2006, 09:53:52 PM
changing the rules.  i'm following yours.  you started this thread with the intention of not following it through.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 14, 2006, 09:59:47 PM
changing the rules.  i'm following yours.  you started this thread with the intention of not following it through.

Following through can be very dangerous.

It happened to me once in a posh restaurant.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowolfi on November 14, 2006, 10:13:11 PM
if they are truly Christian - (and, i don't doubt that God will call them at some later point because perhaps they are more humble than true Christians) - they will not deny Christ.

pianowolfi, if Christ calls himself the Word of God - then He existed from eternity.  He was born a man -but existed before He was born. 

i realize this all seems semantic - but to me - and probably for buddists - it is real. it is definite.  and it is one way.  buddists would probably say the same.  no thank you Jesus Christ - i want to find my own eight ways to perfection

You probably mean The Noble Eightfold Path:

    * Wisdom

    1. Right understanding
    2. Right intention

    * Ethical conduct

    3. Right speech
    4. Right action
    5. Right livelihood

    * Mental discipline

    6. Right effort
    7. Right mindfulness
    8. Right concentration

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eightfold_Path

Nothing in these rules seems to contradict the Bible imo.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 15, 2006, 01:14:18 AM
pianowolfi,  if someone were my neighbor and was a buddist - i wouldn't bother 'enlightening' them.  there are many positives in these ideas.  and, i truly do believe that people should mind their own business.  also, i know that many people who believe differently than i are good people.  i'm not challenging that.  i'm challenging the core of their beliefs only to those on this thread.

since you ask -  what they lack, imo, is a belief structure of where we go after death.  they believe in reincarnation.  minor difference, i guess, to those who want to combine christianity and buddism.  but, if you are realistic about combining religions - you can't have both equally.  something has to give.  in this case - Jesus is reduced to a prophet that really has less say than buddha.  i don't think He wants us to reduce Him in stature.  in fact, how can He even compare to a MAN.  if buddha was once a man - He must have challenged people to worship not only his ideas but himself.  i dare you to find out the history of this man and if he did not try to get people to worship him.  why else would they keep his portrait and statues so long?  just like Christ ( although i believe he told us not to worship anything made by human hands)  - excepting that Christ told us that He would return to the earth.  is buddha returning?  no.  we are supposed to do the returning - to another spirit.  i think this is mysticism. and mysticism leads somewhere else.  it's origin is in paganism.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 15, 2006, 01:25:04 AM
But reincarnation is not part of buddhism. It is part of the religion that exists in countries with a lot of buddhist people.

As you see how the noble eightfold path is defined, it is not clear what 'right'-something they mean. What is 'right' and what is 'wrong'?
They are also not commandments. No one is ordering you to follow them.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 15, 2006, 01:29:40 AM
part of the buddists in japan adhere to the zen philosophy - and they do not get married and do not eat meat.  the 'true pure land' philosophy - you CAN get married and eat meat.  how can buddha be so divided?  also, there is no prerogative in the bible that a 'minister' of God should not be married.  in fact, paul himself encouraged it.  why? so men would not be tempted when with other men, or women.  supposedly, it is a sign of holiness (such as nuns and monks of other faiths) - but there is nowhere in the bible that says you are more holy if you don't have sex.  the idea that sex is a sin is not actually found in the bible.  only the eating of the tree of the 'knowledge of good and evil' and adam and eve finding out they were naked.  they had already had sex, imo.  and probably had a ripping good time.   i don't think God minded.  if he created them for each other and then said 'no sex'  - He would be one wierd God.  especially since they saw the animals doing it all around them.

perhaps, in my limited understanding of buddism i think it's crazy.  if you live a good life - you miss being reborn over and over.  i guess that is the gist.  so - in buddism death is better than life?  i just don't get it ?  if you are good - you go into nothingness.  ok.  that's what they believe - but why do the bad (bad karma people) get reborn over and over.  i think that's a crazy idea.

there are many other things that i do not agree with - but i'll just save it.  this is my perspective and certainly nothing that i would pick up a samuri sword over.

ps i believe Christ did not get married because He knew that He was going to die and didn't want to leave a widow.  also, He is the husband of the church (bride) and His destiny isn't toward a woman (made as mankind) but the woman/man's destiny is toward Him (being god-like beings - above the angels).  in several places in the bible it mentions that 'crowns' await us.  for what?  not the eightfold steps.  for teaching the words of Jesus and not altering them.

Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 15, 2006, 02:15:23 AM
The idea is to eliminate suffering. To do this you have to eliminate lust because if you don't want to have anything you can't be unhappy. You will have everything.

Why do they get reborn? Because life is suffering. Especially with a consciousness like we have. Life is a puzzle that cannot be solved.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 15, 2006, 02:20:58 AM
i certainly don't suffer when i have sex.  i think it's a matter of perspective.  in my religion - there's no need to suffer needlessly thinking that you're avoiding it.  i mean - once someone told me he hadn't had sex in three years or something like that.  i said...'oh,  that's your problem.'  but, obviously, it seemed to him that it was.  now, why would one cause more sufferring to themselves to avoid it?

i still don't 'get it.'
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 15, 2006, 02:51:17 AM
That's exactly the point. You don't make a problem out of it.

If you have sex then you will probably think that you need it. So this means you create longing/suffering for sex that needs to be filled/neutralised.

To Christianity the human body is something sinful and the soul is something holy. So the mind needs to force the body into submission. In buddhism it is different. Buddhism doesn't teach that it is wrong to suffer. It only says that if you want to get rid of suffering then buddhism is one of the ways you can take.

Obviously when you stop having sex but while you still long for it it is no use. You need to stop longing for sex. Otherwise you will only torture your body and get the sexual problems that Christianity has.

So when you stop longing for sex it no longer is an issue. It won't matter if you have a lot of sex and no sex at all.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 15, 2006, 02:55:11 AM
i think you can take repression too far.  but, then again - there's not a lot of it in our society.  the fact that a person has standards, etc. seems right and good.  but, why put burdens on everyone around you - to hold to the same?  why is buddism a 'religion' and not something that one person chooses for himself or herself.  it seems like a millstone for everyone to be sexually repressed.  are you sure these monks can all handle it.  is there some kind of test to see which ones might not be able to withstand the pressure.  what happens if they make a mistake?  then they know that they're going to be karmalized?  or, do they make sure of it by neutering them?
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: penguinlover on November 15, 2006, 07:18:53 AM
This is a bothersome thread to me.  I admire Pianistimo's patience with it all.  She posts very clearly and elaborately, and tries her very best to answer every question with honesty and doesn't skirt issues.  She gives it her all, thanks.  Since you say it so well, the rest of us don't have to.

Anyway, I would like to respond to many things here, but I won't.  I just would like to say that everyone has a knowledge of God within them, no one is a true atheist.  It says that in Romans 1:19.  "because that which is known about God is evident within them, for God made it evident to them."  God puts the knowledge of Him within every human being.  Now, you can chose what to do with that knowledge.  Many try their best to ignore it, hoping it will go away.  But it doesn't.

Another thing that bugs me is all this talk about religion.  Jesus himself didn't come to offer a religion. That's  man's way of trying to reach God.  Jesus came to offer us a relationship with God, God reaching down to man.  Jesus wasn't too impressed with the religion of his day either.

There is only one true God, but men will make anything a god as a substitute for the real One.  So you are right in saying there are many gods.  Just remember, they are man made and have no power.  Only God is God, and deep down, everyone knows that.

There.  I have said my peace, at least for now.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: penguinlover on November 15, 2006, 08:03:08 AM
Just one more thing:  I don't think I have seen the media or television acurately portray a Christian.  Don't make up your mind about Christians by what you see there.  Mostly, the media has it wrong.  Sure there are crazies out there,  there always will be. But just because someone calls themselves Christian doesn't mean they are.  The term Christian just mean "little Christ",  an imitator of Christ.   A true Christian has had a heart change, not a religious title.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 15, 2006, 11:03:54 AM
Just one more thing:  I don't think I have seen the media or television acurately portray a Christian.  Don't make up your mind about Christians by what you see there.  Mostly, the media has it wrong.  Sure there are crazies out there,  there always will be. But just because someone calls themselves Christian doesn't mean they are.  The term Christian just mean "little Christ",  an imitator of Christ.   A true Christian has had a heart change, not a religious title.

I wasn't going to post in this thraed anymore but I can't resist!  EXCELLENT posts penguinlover!  extremely accurate and good posts!
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 15, 2006, 02:02:29 PM
i have one more thing to add, and that is the command that God gave in genesis for noah's family - 'be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.'  that is because God wants a family.  a religion which represses marriage, sex, and family - is not bibilically based.  basically that is negating the commands of paul in the NT so that people will not fall into 'temptation.' 

Christ never tells us to avoid sufferring, either.  in fact, He makes it quite clear that 'through sufferring' Christ entered into the kingdom (as King) and that we should be willing to suffer for the gospels sake.  the gospel is summed up in matthew 25 'for i was hungry, and you gave me something to eat; i was thirsty and you gave me drink; i was a stranger and you took me in; naked , and you clothed me; i was sick and you visited me; i was in prison and you came to me... and theKing answered truly i say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

this is the best way to avoid feeling sorry or that one is sufferring - to take on the sufferring of others and DO something about it. 

why am i still thinking about thal's statement.  it was rather bold of him to say.  i certainly hope it was a fulfilling experience - but well hidden.  was it in the coat closet?  or under the table?  that's a risky thing to do.  or, did you mean - you ate the entire meal and nothing more.  kind of hoping it was the latter.  thal, you need a wife!
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowolfi on November 15, 2006, 03:06:58 PM
Pianowolfi *thinks and does research*  ;D
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: maul on November 15, 2006, 06:13:38 PM
Idiocy is rampant.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 15, 2006, 06:17:32 PM
Idiocy is rampant.

aaah..what a nice thing to say maul! Such loving comments.   
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 15, 2006, 06:30:53 PM
i have one more thing to add

If only, but i doubt it.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowelsh on November 16, 2006, 01:10:34 AM
Any sane people out there?? atall??  I dont know how many times this thread went off topic - its insane..In fact im so confused I dont even know what this started out as anymore.  But with relation to 'christian bashing' - AGAIN! the reason the always quote from their 'BIG book' is simple 1. Its our book (given by God 2Tim3:16/17) and is applicable to every area of life (not just ours, but also the world in which we live) 2. it is the word of God and as Christians we believe in an almighty creator God who is at the same time intimate ie. we have relationship with him, by the blood of his son through the word and through direct access in prayer.  What I find startling is the number of people who feel qualified to attack Christians without having even the slightest knowledge of what the word of God actually teaches (which dosent mean randomly plucking out verses you like/dislike, it means reading in context and actually getting the whole concept).  Anyway thats my airing.  rather than mocking the woman and her kids if you really think there is a problem with the woman and im not going to comment. Then if you believe in God - pray for the woman. God hears and he is no mans debtor, he is faithfull to provide all the help that the woman and her kids need.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowolfi on November 16, 2006, 11:00:51 PM
Christ did not say anything about karma. 

From Mathew 11:

I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 He who has ears, let him hear.

I think for Jesus believing in previous lives was self-evident, according to these words. (And this is not the only passage in the NT)
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 17, 2006, 12:14:13 AM
yet...John himself denied that he was 'the elijah - and said he was unfit to tie the sandals of Christ or something like that.'  but, we know he prepared the way for Christ.  now enoch and elijah were 'taken' and yet, they physically died.  we know this because Christ was the 'firstfruits' of those risen from the dead.  if anyone rose before Him - it would negate His power.  john 1:30 - 'this is He on behalf of whom I said, ' after me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'  if John the Baptist were to reappear - he would not be 'karmalized' as a cat or dog or cow.  He would be himself - except in a better body.  but, this cannot happen until the ressurrection of the dead.  I Corinthians 15:22-26 'as in adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.  but each in his own order:  Christ the firstfruits, after that those who are Christ's AT HIS COMING.'  then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  for He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.   the last enemy that will be abolished is death.'
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianolist on November 17, 2006, 01:19:08 AM
Thal, you are a lone voice of wisdom. I think it's about time you and I buggered up this thread. It needs to be suffocated. Here's a nice poem about the English, with due deference to Michael Flanders and Donald Swann. It has nothing at all to do with God Warrior.

THE ENGLISH

The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers.
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot;
You'll find he's a stinker as likely as not.

     The English, the English, the English are best;
     I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

The Scotsman is mean, as we're all well aware;
He's boney and blotchy and covered with hair.
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And hasn't got bishops to show him the way.

     The English, the English, the English are best;
     I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

The Irishman now our contempt is beneath;
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth.
He blows up policemen, or so I have heard,
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third.

     The English are moral, the English are good
     And clever and modest and misunderstood.

The Welshman's dishonest, he cheats when he can;
He's little and dark, more like monkey than man.
He works underground with a lamp on his hat
And sings far too loud, far too often, and flat.

     The English, the English, the English are best;
     I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
For the French or the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch.
The Germans are German, the Russians are red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed.

     The English are noble, the English are nice,
     And worth any other at double the price.

And all the world over each nation's the same;
They've simply no notion of playing the game.
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won,
And they practice beforehand, which spoils all the fun.

     The English, the English, the English are best;
     I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

It's not that they're wicked or naturally bad;
It's just that they're foreign that makes them so mad.
The English are all that a nation should be,
And the pride of the English are Donald (Michael) and me.

     The English, the English, the English are best;
     I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: donjuan on November 17, 2006, 03:12:45 AM
yes, go on and s#$t all over my thread.. it's not as much fun as I had hoped it would be anyway..
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: Floristan on November 17, 2006, 07:03:38 AM
For what it's worth at this point in this interminable wacked thread...for what it's worth, DonJuan...the God Warrior clip is one of the best on You Tube in a long time.  I forwarded it to a couple friends, who each forwarded it to everyone they know.  It's all over the country by now, most of us howling our heads off at this total lunatic God Warrior b**ch.  Sure we feel sorry for the people who are forced to live with her, but her...she's surly the spawn of Satan, so evil is she.  She deserves no sympathy, only derision.  What a horrid creature!  How impossibly distant is she from the very teachings she thinks she espouses.  This is surely a grand delusion of a most destructive sort.

Of course posting this video brought out our own resident religious loonies, babbling about god and jesus and the bible, sounding remarkably like those Iraqi mullahs and Iranian ayatollahs carrying on in their fatwas about allah and mohammed and the koran.  Just what we need in the world right now...more "passionate" religious zealots!  They are doing such a good job of bringing people together in peace and harmony.  May god save us from the likes of them!
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowolfi on November 17, 2006, 10:34:17 AM
For what it's worth at this point in this interminable wacked thread...for what it's worth, DonJuan...the God Warrior clip is one of the best on You Tube in a long time.  I forwarded it to a couple friends, who each forwarded it to everyone they know.  It's all over the country by now, most of us howling our heads off at this total lunatic God Warrior b**ch.  Sure we feel sorry for the people who are forced to live with her, but her...she's surly the spawn of Satan, so evil is she.  She deserves no sympathy, only derision.  What a horrid creature!  How impossibly distant is she from the very teachings she thinks she espouses.  This is surely a grand delusion of a most destructive sort.

i must agree to this.

Quote
Of course posting this video brought out our own resident religious loonies, babbling about god and jesus and the bible, sounding remarkably like those Iraqi mullahs and Iranian ayatollahs carrying on in their fatwas about allah and mohammed and the koran.  Just what we need in the world right now...more "passionate" religious zealots!  They are doing such a good job of bringing people together in peace and harmony.  May god save us from the likes of them!

This part of your post makes me concerned though. For me religion is something totally different than what you describe here. Perhaps I'm too sensitive or so. But I have the impression as soon as I use for instance the word God as I would naturally use it some people here would put me in a corner where I don't stand. In the corner of taliban and fundamentalists and creationists. Where I definitely not am. As soon as I agree with something Prometheus said, for instance "It is not possible that the sun is only 6000 years old" the other people would come and bash me for that.  This is really annoying. There is a sort of intolerance on the forum about these subjects. Why can't it be possible to talk unprejudiced about subjects like that? For me religion is like music a part of my life. A natural part of it. It corresponds with the musical part of myself. It is an independent area of my personality. Sort of self-made and self-discovered. I find it very annoying to make a no-no out of this subject on a musical forum. So I seriously begin to feel uncomfortable here. :( >:(
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: penguinlover on November 17, 2006, 10:48:18 AM
I have felt uncomfortable here for a while.  I guess I am one of those loonies you need to be protected from .  I am passionate about my relationship with Christ and His teachings, but I would never shove them down your throat.  It is a personal matter.  Violence and hatred weren't the ways of Christ, and I need to be like Him.  Putting people down isn't the way of Christ.  He grew in favor with God and man, that means people actually liked him.  He was personable, and enjoyable to be around.

Sorry, I was going to not post anything else here.  At least that's what I said before, just couldn't help myself.    I guess I am rather impulsive.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 17, 2006, 12:33:01 PM
Penguin lover:   Just remind yourself that while we as believers may be in the minority on this forum...we're not a minority when it comes to the world!    Anyone want to guess how the percentage of the population that does believe?   I am sure it's extremely high.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: prometheus on November 17, 2006, 01:13:04 PM
Aah, the Calimero complex.

(Do you even have that kind of expression)

(It's unfair, they are big and I am small.)
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: penguinlover on November 17, 2006, 06:40:38 PM
I have no clue what that is all about.  I do believe that the majority of people believe there is a God, but even the demons believe that.  It's the Gospel that they don't believe or accept.  Many even believe it in their head, but can't accept it into their hearts and lives.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: donjuan on November 17, 2006, 07:00:43 PM
For what it's worth at this point in this interminable wacked thread...for what it's worth, DonJuan...the God Warrior clip is one of the best on You Tube in a long time.  I forwarded it to a couple friends, who each forwarded it to everyone they know.  It's all over the country by now, most of us howling our heads off at this total lunatic God Warrior b**ch.  Sure we feel sorry for the people who are forced to live with her, but her...she's surly the spawn of Satan, so evil is she.  She deserves no sympathy, only derision.  What a horrid creature! How impossibly distant is she from the very teachings she thinks she espouses. This is surely a grand delusion of a most destructive sort.

Of course posting this video brought out our own resident religious loonies, babbling about god and jesus and the bible, sounding remarkably like those Iraqi mullahs and Iranian ayatollahs carrying on in their fatwas about allah and mohammed and the koran.  Just what we need in the world right now...more "passionate" religious zealots!  They are doing such a good job of bringing people together in peace and harmony.  May god save us from the likes of them!
glad you liked it!  :)

Many even believe it in their head, but can't accept it into their hearts and lives.
If I devote my life to Jesus, won't I be punished in the afterlife by other religions for not believing in them?   Won't all you protestants go to Hindu Hell, as well as be 'left behind' when Armageddon comes and the only people saved are Jehovah's Witnesses?  :) 

It seems so obvious to me (and probably other atheists) that religion is an important brainchild of culture.  ...but it doesn't actually MEAN anything!
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 17, 2006, 07:08:49 PM
it doesn't  mean anything until your life depends upon it.  but, then it's too late.  if we understand the bible to mean what it says - we're here on earth for a purpose.  and, the gospel is bringing 'good news' of a better world.  if you think this is the best that it gets- then no wonder so many are depressed.  all the world governments in the world cannot create peace.  but, Jesus Christ, when He returns WILL be a warrior against war, false gods, corruption, immorality, and deception.  none of us are exempt from judgement - but He says if we judge ourselves rightly now - then we will be under His saving grace by faith.  perhaps the woman in this video clip will be attributed some merits - instead of blindly following another families ideals.  of course, she may have some mental hang-ups - but God is a righteous judge and does not judge by sight - but by our hearts.  perhaps she has endured some sufferring that we do not know about.  God knows all things - especially relating to how we take care of our families and how we treat people in private as well as in public.  if she was concerned enough to express a distaste for the occult - more power to her.  i'd rather see someone 'half crazy' for God than 'totally crazy' for the occult.

to make things fair- we should have a video clip of some 'new age' meetings.  all dna ancestral encodings are electronically disengaged?  'karmalizing' people - to accept feelings over rational thought (and also a rational and engaged God).  this is deception of the highest order.  it demotes God and raises self to the highest position.  this is Satan's form of 'evil' looking 'good.'  anyone gone to a new age meeting and care to share their 'feelings.'  to me it sounds quite inward.  how can you learn if you are learning only from yourself and your subconcious?   say - they are put into a life and death situation - are they going to then pray to themselves.  what help with they derive then?  the true God is powerful and mighty and is not some kind of impersonal deity to discard in the trash.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: donjuan on November 17, 2006, 07:32:14 PM
it doesn't  mean anything until your life depends upon it. 
One could argue that 'your life depends upon it' only if you think it depends upon it.  In other words, you need God only if you think you need God.  Therefore, convince yourself you don't need God, and you won't!
to make things fair- we should have a video clip of some 'new age' meetings.
I like that idea.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 17, 2006, 08:05:44 PM
if you are for 'rational thought' - explain what is 'rational' in new age philosophy.  it is inward and subconsiously driven - and is drivel in my book.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: donjuan on November 17, 2006, 08:20:15 PM
if you are for 'rational thought' - explain what is 'rational' in new age philosophy.
Where in my posts did I claim to be a supporter of new age philosophy?  I don't know anything about it; it sounded like you did, so I was hoping you would explain it (or post videos, as you mentioned).
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 17, 2006, 08:52:04 PM
i don't think you picked the VERY BEST video to describe madness of thought.  maybe madness of action.  did you know the occult is very real?  otherwise, there would not be crazies who have followed the occult to extremes.  ie charles manson, adolph hitler, zodiac killer...etc.

one of my husband's friend's had a bad experience.  his wife started going to new age meetings and became suspicious of his intentions and changed her attitude, dress, demeanor, actions, superstitions - dramatically.  she divorced him within a year or so and has not been the same as a wife/mother to her children.  she is very inward. 
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 17, 2006, 09:01:04 PM
one of my husband's friend's had a bad experience.  his wife started going to new age meetings and became suspicious of his intentions and changed her attitude, dress, demeanor, actions, superstitions - dramatically.  she divorced him within a year or so and has not been the same as a wife/mother to her children.  she is very inward. 

A friend of mine had a similar experience when his wife started to go to the Baptists.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 17, 2006, 11:05:01 PM
one of my husband's friend's had a bad experience.  his wife started going to new age meetings and became suspicious of his intentions and changed her attitude, dress, demeanor, actions, superstitions - dramatically.  she divorced him within a year or so and has not been the same as a wife/mother to her children.  she is very inward. 
A friend of mine had a similar experience when his wife started to go to the Baptists.
He might have had an even worse one if the Baptists had come to them.

I wonder if it will soon be "time" not for yet further additions to the omnipresent word-association thread but for a new thread which someone initiates by checking and reporting the number of appearances respectively of the name "God" and of the word "piano" on this forum and then throwing it open to discussion and debate. We know the identity of He who, it is said, sitteth on the right hand of God, yet he/she who sitteth (and occasionally standeth) on the left hand side of the piano is known merely as the page-turner; useful as the latter functionary often is, does this not strike some members as somehow inequitable?

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowelsh on November 18, 2006, 01:40:19 AM
What exactly do you find so replusive about Baptists may I ask?? Let it be clearly known that comments like that are close to the line. Let me be really clear Baptist churches do not sanction divorce. They certainly dont encourage it. Indeed most bible believeing churches wouldnt.  JPflorida et al.. Just a reminder that it really doesnt matter what percentage of the world is Christian and whether we are majority or as in places like N.Korea and Kyrgyzstan we are the minority and being persecuted If God is for us who can stand against us. They who are with us are more than are with them(the army of the Lord is numberless - im sure you guys know the story).
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: penguinlover on November 18, 2006, 04:07:16 AM
I am a Christian first, Baptist second.   If you want to know what we believe, ask me. I will try to answer.  Don't just randomly bash us, call us crazy, etc.  Really, some of us are actually nice folks.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 18, 2006, 11:04:11 AM
My experience of the Baptists after attending several "alpha" courses is that they are a bunch of happy clappy, tambourine banging mind benders.

The preacher in charge of the course publicly admitted that he told his own 15 year old daughter, that she would burn in hell if she did not accept Jesus as her saviour. What kind and loving people, not.

Hopefully they are not all like that, but it was enough to turn me off religion for a few years. This thread is enough to turn me off for life.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 12:09:14 PM
My experience of the Baptists after attending several "alpha" courses is that they are a bunch of happy clappy, tambourine banging mind benders.

The preacher in charge of the course publicly admitted that he told his own 15 year old daughter, that she would burn in hell if she did not accept Jesus as her saviour. What kind and loving people, not.

Hopefully they are not all like that, but it was enough to turn me off religion for a few years. This thread is enough to turn me off for life.
Just as a matter of interest, what persuaded you to attend that course, Thal? Although I've never been on any such course, I have to admit that my own expeience of Baptists is almost exactly the same as Thal's and, whilst I would go farther than he does and assume that they surely CAN'T all be like that, this kind of attempted proselytising behaviour is just one thing that gives the practice of Christianity (as distinct from Christianity itself) a bad name; now I'd be the first to admit that this is not the fault of most Christians - still less is it Christ's fault - but it is also sadly true that such behaviour is not confined to those Chrstians of Baptist persuasion, for I have encountered it, in its various forms and guises, among Methodists and, to a lesser extent, Church of England and United Reformed Church folk, ALL of whom are, once again, "not like that". I've never personally encountered it among Roman Catholics, but I am aware that it has existed among Irish Roman Catholics in the past.

As to the mindless and unbearable happy-clappy guitar-playing praise-the-Lord persuasion which again affects not only many Baptists but also certain Methodists, United Reformed Church people and even some Church of England attendees, I find it anti-Christian and anti-religious, as though it somehow defiles - and perhaps even defames - the very thing that it is supposed to promulgate. As I have stated previously, I am not a Christian and I am likewise not an anti-Christian, but if ever I wish to attend a service in a Christian Church (which I very rarely do but which has been known) it is invariably sung High Mass in Latin. I cannot participate, of course, since, far from being confirmed in the Christian Church, I have not even been baptised in one, but at least I can accept and appreciate the dignity of such a service and recognise a desire to seek after something higher than temporal concerns. I can honestly say that on no occasion when I have attended a service in a Roman Catholic Church have any followers attempted to pressurise me into becoming a Christian, nor have I been frowned upon as an interloper. Indeed, the only time anyone questioned why I would not take Holy Communion and I explained why I was not entitled to do so, the only concern seemed to be that I might accordingly derive less from the service than those that did - no coercion or patronising attitude whatsoever.

I would doubt - or at least very much hope - that many Baptist ministers would never tell their own 15-year-old daughters that they would burn in hell if they did not accept Jesus as their saviour, but I imagine that those who would do such an unChristian thing would rarely cut any ice with such daughters, given the manifold influences upon those 15-year-olds from other sources; that in no wise excuses such behaviour, however - especially from a minister of the Christian Church.

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 18, 2006, 12:26:14 PM
uh oh! the baptist debate!   Well I was baptist for 30 years, my parents and family still are....I converted to Presbyterian... half my friends are still baptist....You have to find what's right for you!  there are all kind of people and ideas in every religion...    but this is one topic I'm going to stay neutral on!   Because without you knowing me in person and knowing my experiences there is no way I could accurately post my thoughts. With all of us, we are going to judge based on our experiences that were usually with one or 2 churches, and that's not really fair to do!
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianolist on November 18, 2006, 12:40:29 PM
I'm with ahinton. I go to church services sometimes, not because I believe in God, but because I like to be with people when they share their gentleness, their aspirations towards some sort of dignity in what can be a very base worldly existence. As members of the ape family, we are born with a great deal of innate aggression, but if we are to to live in an organised society, we have to temper that aggression with co-operation and tolerance. We use our capitalist system to deflect the aggression into commercial competition.

Most of what I see in this thread is religion being used to further the aggression and the tribal concerns ("we are this, they are that"). People get aroused (and contribute to threads) far more when they can passionately disagree about some topic or other. That is exactly the behaviour of the chimps, and I am amazed that humans can be so self-deceiving that they don't perceive the intimate similarity. I am fairly gloomy about humanity, because certainly at the moment we do not seem to have the ability to grow beyond our self-destroying instincts, and we now have nuclear and biological weapons that smaller groups can use.

It is ironic that those who most fervently deny their ape-like ancestry are sometimes the ones who most ape the apes.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 18, 2006, 01:21:55 PM
Just as a matter of interest, what persuaded you to attend that course, Thal?

To cut a long story short, I had just been released from the "funny farm" after a short visit. A lady i worked with dragged me along to her Church and thence to an "alpha" course, with the suggestion that i might find some peace.

I was also taken to another Church in Maidstone, where the whole congregation started to faint at the altar and then proceeded to shake uncontrollably on the floor.

This did actually help as it clearly showed me that there were a lot of people more mentally ill than i was.

I am now thinking of joining the Jedi Knights. According to this mornings Daily Mail, there are already thousands of members in England. It could certainly no more strange than what i have previously experienced.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowolfi on November 18, 2006, 01:40:08 PM


I am now thinking of joining the Jedi Knights. According to this mornings Daily Mail, there are already thousands of members in England. It could certainly no more strange than what i have previously experienced.

Thal

What will your Mullah say to this, Thali? ;D
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 18, 2006, 03:09:44 PM
What will your Mullah say to this, Thali? ;D

Good riddance probably.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 03:39:06 PM
To cut a long story short, I had just been released from the "funny farm" after a short visit. A lady i worked with dragged me along to her Church and thence to an "alpha" course, with the suggestion that i might find some peace.

I was also taken to another Church in Maidstone, where the whole congregation started to faint at the altar and then proceeded to shake uncontrollably on the floor.

This did actually help as it clearly showed me that there were a lot of people more mentally ill than i was.

I am now thinking of joining the Jedi Knights. According to this mornings Daily Mail, there are already thousands of members in England. It could certainly no more strange than what i have previously experienced.

Thal
I am truly sorry to hear that you underwent the problems that you allude to (by implication here) - but as to joining some other group, why would you do this when you can (are surely already do) find far more that is of value to you in your pursuit of music and in practising the piano?

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 18, 2006, 04:13:28 PM
to reply to the above...I think people all search for a connection to other people, to their world....piano is great! but I personally need interaction with other people and human contact.     If all I did was piano I would be miserable.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 18, 2006, 04:45:18 PM
I am truly sorry to hear that you underwent the problems that you allude to (by implication here) - but as to joining some other group, why would you do this when you can (are surely already do) find far more that is of value to you in your pursuit of music and in practising the piano?

Best,

Alistair

I did not really have a choice, hence my use of the word dragged and taken.

Religion is a bacillus that attacks when you are at your most vunerable.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 18, 2006, 04:57:44 PM
I did not really have a choice, hence my use of the word dragged and taken.

Religion is a bacillus that attacks when you are at your most vunerable.

Thal

see that is very sad...and i know people who have had your experiences...    it makes the rest of us Christians look bad! but please believe me, we are not all that way!   My circle of Christian friends are very open minded, nice, pleasant, caring, etc...      But I also know people that you are talking about who are racist,narrowminded, etc., I hate that they give the rest of us a bad name!
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 18, 2006, 05:20:17 PM
ahinton has once again made me wonder if i am not totally alone in the world of making mental associations to things that seem 'off topic.'  and, yet, as it seems - 'page turners' now have(and alwas have had, to me) a higher status.  i mean, if it weren't for the page turners - what would we have?  of course on the opposite side of things - we have 'hit the fan.'  i suppose that improvisers wouldn't care if the music hit the fan and they would just keep on playing and not worry.

i sort of equate improvisers to baptists 'gone wild' - or probably more likely southern baptists of the wildly improved sort from the media in movies like 'brother, where art thou.'  and, strict anglicized churches with strict music reading.  of course, there are many 'inbetween' states as well.

if you haven't seen 'happy feet'  (a penguin movie) and see it for nothing less than learning a bit more toleration for the idiosyncracies of others (and the amazing computer graphics nowdays) - you have to see it.  it makes me realize that on this large earth we are as little specks of penguins - occasionally moving out of our particular ice pack and into someone else's territory.  when we no longer 'fit in' - we simply do something really crazy.  in the main characters instance - it is taking flying leaps/jumps off of icebergs from great heights.  thus, gaining back any lost repect for the widly bizarre behavior if nothing else. 

i never really thought of one's music philosophy matching their general personality and religious views sort of.  but, it kinda follows that if you are able to improvise - you're probably not going to be in a church that won't allow clapping or spontaneous shouts of 'amen.'  now, clapping leads to another thing entirely.  bodily movement.  you know, a little hip wiggling.  all this brings me back to that penguin movie.

Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 05:40:40 PM
I did not really have a choice, hence my use of the word dragged and taken.

Religion is a bacillus that attacks when you are at your most vunerable.

Thal
OK - understood (and I think that I should indeed have understood that first time around) - but religion is only what you say it is when it is used as, for example, in the personal case to which you refer and, even then, only because the coercer is deliberately making it look like that in ored to try to satisfy his/her pesonal agenda. Correct me if you really believe that I am wrong here, but I cannot help but feel that you were pressed into being a victim not so much of religion as much of the person trying to pressurise you.

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 18, 2006, 05:58:19 PM
what thal needs  is a good experience. 
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 06:00:46 PM
ahinton has once again made me wonder if i am totally alone in the world of making mental associations to things that seem 'off topic.'  and, yet, as it seems - 'page turners' now have(and alwas have had, to me) a higher status.  i mean, if it weren't for the page turners - what would we have?  
As a casual glance at what I wrote would surely reveal, I did not undermine - nor did I seek to undermine - the rôle of the page-turner; indeed, I thought that I'd rather tended towards doing the opposite.

i sort of equate improvisers to baptists 'gone wild' - or probably more likely southern baptists of the wildly improved sort from the media in movies like 'brother, where art thou.'
On this basis, jazz musicians, Bach and Liszt would all qualify as some kind of "Baptists"; somehow, I don't quite see Charlie Parker, Stan Getz, Art Tatum, Miles Davis, the composer of the Passions and B minor Mass and the composer of Totentanz, A Faust Symphony and Csardás Macabre as occupying such a rôle at all comfortably...

it kinda follows that if you are able to improvise - you're probably not going to be in a church that won't allow clapping or spontaneous shouts of 'amen.'
How does that follow? Plenty of musicians who improvise never attend any kind of church at all; furthermore, plenty of improvising musicians that do attend church from time to time do not usually do so for the purpose of playing their instruments or singing while there.

now, clapping leads to another thing entirely.  bodily movement.  you know, a little hip wiggling.
Does it? How, Why, Where? When? Is there reliable and incontrovertible scientific evidence? Do you accordingly expect churchgoers to end up wiggling themselves following - and as a direct consequence of - having clapped? Whatever your answers - if any - here, as long as they don't ever do it in front of me, that's OK, I guess - even though its inherent connection to genuine religious worship seems to me to be a greater mystery even than the "ways" in which it is said "God moves". That said, I have to confess that, as a composer, I am obviously not as interested in the apparent wigglings that may arise as a result of clapping as I am in what precedes the clapping and, if the piece before that clapping is one of mine, I'm always grateful for the clapping that follows it and I really don't need or expect any subsequent wigglings...

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 06:04:18 PM
what thal needs  is a good experience. 
No doubt - but we all need those, susanistimo dear!

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 18, 2006, 06:11:57 PM
i forthwith divide some homemade bread between you and sprinkle you with some cinnamon.   and, if i catch you and thal looking up and snickering during the prayer - i will grab the bread back and make you both start all over again.  that is...if i were responsible for you both having a 'good experience.'
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 06:28:40 PM
i forthwith divide some homemade bread between you and sprinkle you with some cinnamon.   and, if i catch you and thal looking up during the prayer - i will grab the bread back and make you both start all over again.
I'm sure that's very kind of you, susanistimo dear - and it would accordingly be most uncharacteristically churlish of me not to appreciate, at least in principle, the motivation for your generosity of spirit here - but it seems either that you have not read, or have deliberately overlooked, my earlier remark about not having been baptised into the Christian Church or that you are prepared equally deliberately to overlook the tenets of your Christian faith in your apparent willingness to proceed to break bread with a non-member (and I do not mean a non-member of this forum, as I expect you realise). Although you didn't mention the wine, I assume that this would follow in your proposed scenario and, if so, a Chambolle Musigny Les Amoureuses would do nicely, thank you.

Seriously, though, it is not for me to defile the sacrament either with the dubious humour - still less with my presence at its celebration where said presence is neither appropriate nor required.

Nice touch with the cinnamon, though - except, perhaps, that since some say that cinnamon is an aphrodisiac, it's probably better that you sprinkle it over the "sexual dysfunction" thread rather than this one...

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 18, 2006, 07:01:18 PM
i forthwith divide some homemade bread between you and sprinkle you with some cinnamon.   and, if i catch you and thal looking up and snickering during the prayer - i will grab the bread back and make you both start all over again.  that is...if i were responsible for you both having a 'good experience.'


Your incoherent ramblings are more than sufficient to put me off religion for life.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 07:10:33 PM
Your incoherent ramblings are more than sufficient to put me off religion for life.

Thal
Now, come on - hands off susanistimo, Thal! Where's your gentlemanly chivalry? (the kind of which you'd probably need abit if you really did go ahead and join those "Kinghts" you mentioned). You've already stated quite clearly that both the baptist preacher and this thread have already "put you off religion for life"...

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 18, 2006, 07:22:36 PM
true Hinty, very true.

I have decided to join the Templars and hunt for the Holy Grail.

I is going to Glastonbury next month anyway, so might get lucky.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 07:31:45 PM
true Hinty, very true.

I have decided to join the Templars and hunt for the Holy Grail.

I is going to Glastonbury next month anyway, so might get lucky.

Thal
I don't wish to spoil any part of your fun at the prospect of so doing before you've even set out on your quest in your new-found capacity of Knight Templar Sigismond of Schloss Thalberg (probably "Knight Errant" [pace Medtner] in your case), but any oboist could tell you what the Holy Grail is, even if they cannot actually lead you to it; it's the perfect double reed.

Glastonbury has, as no doubt you know, a famous tor, which no doubt it would do you the world of good to walk up and down a few times first, in order to render you fit for the quest. Once you've failed to find that perfect double reed, however, you may at least console yourself (if you wish) with the thought that Glastonbury is only a short distance from the city of Bath, so perhaps a visit to The Sorabji Archive on your way back to Le Fin des Graves might appeal?

Best,

Alistair

Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 07:36:57 PM
Most of what I see in this thread is religion being used to further the aggression and the tribal concerns ("we are this, they are that"). People get aroused (and contribute to threads) far more when they can passionately disagree about some topic or other. That is exactly the behaviour of the chimps, and I am amazed that humans can be so self-deceiving that they don't perceive the intimate similarity. I am fairly gloomy about humanity, because certainly at the moment we do not seem to have the ability to grow beyond our self-destroying instincts, and we now have nuclear and biological weapons that smaller groups can use.
Plenty of welcome, reasoned and non-combative good sense here, as usual - but why be "gloomy" about the fate of humanity when it includes people like you who are not only able to grow beyond those things but who have done so and can and do write about it as you have done here? Apparently, humanity also includes one human who is prepared momentarily to discard a certain vital tenet of her faith and offer Holy Communion to an infidel; now, bizarre as that may appear to some, one has to award such a gesture full marks for human generosity, surely?(!)...

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 18, 2006, 09:00:01 PM
as usual - i am on pianoforum instead of getting ready for a big night of liszt from a 'rock keyboardist.'  i am sort of reluctant to go and even less reluctant to eat - so i think i see where you are coming from, thal, when you feel uncomfortable about eating bread and being sprinkled by a person who in the real sense is probably some form of a baptist.  i mean, the main tenent of that faith is being baptized for the remission of sins.  perhaps this is uncomfortable thinking for you right now - but for me, it is feta comple.  is that how you spell it? 

ahinton really puts himself out to experience whatever there is to experience without much complaint.  in fact, suggesting the best wine to use with homemade bread.  if i weren't baptized - i'd drink the entire bottle with him - knowing that he'd probably pick a pretty good wine for the occasion.  and, prayers not being said for infidel parties - who knows what the cinnamon would lead to.  but, being of faith and waiting for a better party at the ressurrection - i leave the bottle after a glass for each of us - and pray for the both of you to dunk yourselves in the river sometime before the end of your lives.  perhaps even when you are old and simply taking a bath.  just ask the nearby local minister to dunk you completely - head and all - and say a quick prayer for your baptism in the name of the Father and Son by the power of the Holy Spirit.  this will assure your 'sealing' and recording in the book that God keeps on all of us.  there is the 'book of life' which records all the names of those who choose willingly to be 'with God.'

you can be sure, if it was up to me, you'd be soaking wet at sometime in your 'good experience.' 
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 18, 2006, 09:10:17 PM
just ask the nearby local minister to dunk you completely - head and all - and say a quick prayer for your baptism in the name of the Father and Son by the power of the Holy Spirit.  

If any of those morons come anywhere near me again, it will be them getting a dunking.

I won't even tell you what i will do with the tambourine.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 09:51:44 PM
as usual - i am on pianoforum instead of getting ready for a big night of liszt from a 'rock keyboardist.'  i am sort of reluctant to go and even less reluctant to eat - so i think i see where you are coming from, thal, when you feel uncomfortable about eating bread and being sprinkled by a person who in the real sense is probably some form of a baptist.  i mean, the main tenent of that faith is being baptized for the remission of sins.  perhaps this is uncomfortable thinking for you right now - but for me, it is feta comple.  is that how you spell it?
Bread and cheese now, is it? Well, sorry, but you did mention feta! What you meant to write was "fait accompli", which is French, unlike feta cheese, which is Greek. And by "tenent" I think you meant "tenet".

Does your sector of the Christian Church sanction women baptising people? (just curious); as I'm sure you know, there is a vast array of differences of opinion as to the "legitimate" rôle of women in the various branches of the Christian Church, so I have no idea whether even the one to which you personally subscribe approves of women serving the Church by giving Holy Communion. Not that it's really any of my business, of course...

ahinton really puts himself out to experience whatever there is to experience without much complaint.  in fact, suggesting the best wine to use with homemade bread.  if i weren't baptized - i'd drink the entire bottle with him - knowing that he'd probably pick a pretty good wine for the occasion.
Well, I'd try my best, of course - but please don't let this circumstance prompt you to consider blaming me (not that you are necessarily doing so) for your having been baptised! And why would your prior baptism into the Christian faith discourage you from sharing an entire bottle of fine wine? God gave us grapes, didn't He? And God made Man in his own image, so that Man could use God-given intelligence to figure out how best to grow, tend and work with grapes (not those of wrath, I mean - I was thinking rather more along the lines of pinot noir, which is a darn sight harder to deal with successfully than wrath any day).

and, prayers not being said for infidel parties - who knows what the cinnamon would lead to.
The top of a cappuccino?

but, being of faith and waiting for a better party at the ressurrection - i leave the bottle after a glass for each of us
Well, that's at least a darn sight better than what some Methodists of my insufficiently distant acquaintance would do - which is pass it up altogether. But you reckon that the resurrection (only one "s", please) will be "a better party", do you? You don't say whose resurrection, who's to organise the party or who will issue the invitations...

- and pray for the both of you to dunk yourselves in the river sometime before the end of your lives.  perhaps even when you are old and simply taking a bath.
Why do we have to get wet? Britain has more than enough rainfall as it is; one is often made very wet unless one goes out with a suitable umbrella. Although I live in the city of Bath, I never take a bath, by the way; I always have a shower.

just ask the nearby local minister to dunk you completely - head and all - and say a quick prayer for your baptism in the name of the Father and Son by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Why a "minister", specifically? (i.e. the kind of person that officiates in what we call a "non-conformist" - i.e. protestant but not establishment - Church over here); not a "priest" (Roman Catholic) or a "vicar" (Church of England)? Anyway, I reckon that if I were to ask any one of these kinds of Church official to "dunk" me, I would expect them to immerse me in a sufficient depth of water "head and all" (as you so invitingly put it) and then to hold that head down until the life-not-so-everlasting had been drained from me; after all, what would I ever have done for them during my lifetime other than merely to try to discourage some people's animosity towards those who hold a genuine faith just because they do so?

this will assure your 'sealing' and recording in the book that God keeps on all of us.  there is the 'book of life' which records all the names of those who choose willingly to be 'with God.'
This isn't the "Book of Seven Seals", is it? Now I suggest that you take the first opportunity to go and listen to Franz Schmidt's oratorio by that name (if you are not already familiar with it) - one of his most powerful compositions. Anyway - who's the publisher of this "book"? And what about publisher's rights? And author's rights? What does God think about the 70-year rule?

you can be sure, if it was up to me, you'd be soaking wet at sometime in your 'good experience.' 
Now I'm not quite sure what you may mean by that, but it could be interpreted by some as though you were subtly changing the subject (if I dare suggest such a thing...).

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianolist on November 18, 2006, 10:03:08 PM
humanity also includes one human who is prepared momentarily to discard a certain vital tenet of her faith and offer Holy Communion to an infidel; now, bizarre as that may appear to some, one has to award such a gesture full marks for human generosity, surely?(!)...

I have no problem with ladies who offer this poor sinnerman some cinnamon as sustenance! But I think our goddess knows that. In truth, I am not so troubled by the God Squad as I am by those who feel it is thoroughly right to kill in the name of religion. My gloominess comes from the fact that is is so easy to kill in large numbers these days. There is virtually nothing that we ordinary mortals can do about it, other than to trust in the efficiency and honour of our security services, neither of which is as certain as it used to be.

In the meantime though, we may as well eat, dunk and be merry. Here's my début as a concert pianist.

(https://www.rexlawson.com/images/winterwind.jpg)
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 18, 2006, 10:20:59 PM
What happened to the beard?

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianolist on November 18, 2006, 10:29:34 PM
I removed it with Adobe Photoshop. I bet you can put it back again, though!
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 10:31:45 PM
I have no problem with ladies who offer this poor sinnerman some cinnamon as sustenance!
Delightful!

But I think our goddess knows that.
I hope and would like to think that she does...

In truth, I am not so troubled by the God Squad as I am by those who feel it is thoroughly right to kill in the name of religion.
Moi aussi - although I would naturally extend that concern also to cover those who might seek to do the same in any other name or none.

My gloominess comes from the fact that is is so easy to kill in large numbers these days. There is virtually nothing that we ordinary mortals can do about it, other than to trust in the efficiency and honour of our security services, neither of which is as certain as it used to be.
I understand and cannot in principle argue with that.

In the meantime though, we may as well eat, dunk and be merry. Here's my début as a concert pianist.

(https://www.rexlawson.com/images/winterwind.jpg)
"Eat, dunk and be merry
For tomorrow we début - with 25/11".

Cher Pianolist (and anyone else who may happen to be interested) - I do not know if you are aware of this, but some years ago my very good friend Marc-André Hamelin wrote a piece called Triple Étude after Chopin, which is a study for piano based on all three études by Chopin that are in the key of A minor; his motivation for so doing was to reflect the fact that Godowsky is supposed to have done this but the results have never yet come to light. Unbeknown to Hamelin, I had attempted to do something similar in 1977 with a piece called Les Trois Chopins; my motivation had been similar to his, but, unlike him, I had not realised at the time of writing that Godowsky had done this himself. Once I discovered that he had, it occurred to me that, one day, it might eventually surface, so I did the honourable thing by introducing my efforts to the waste bin and then transferring the copyright in my transcription (transgression?) to the local government organisation that provided the garbage collection and disposal service in my area. Years later, when Hamelin played his Triple Étude after Chopin to me here, I told him what I had done and he said that he wondered what my piece was like. Perhaps he should not have done this, because his wonderment prompted me to attempt to reconstruct it from memory with the new title Étude en forme de Chopin and dedicate it to him. Chopin's Op. 25 No. 11 (the one colloquially known, of course, as the "Winter Wind" study) is obviously one of those three A minor études featured in both Hamelin's and my own transcriptions and, bearing in mind that this is the one of the three that acts as a kind of cantus fermus throughout almost all of my piece, I wrote on the title page of my score:

"Blow, blow thou Winter Wind -
How Art-knots so entwined
Chopin’s ingrate-Études..??"
(with appropriately abject apologies to Shakespeare)...

This work, however - unlike you, Maître Pianolist - has yet to have its début...

Now, we have taken the subject matter from God to Chopin; did anyone notice?

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 10:32:58 PM
I removed it with Adobe Photoshop.
Does that removal constitute an act of Adobe PhotoChopin?

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: mephisto on November 18, 2006, 10:36:48 PM
Is your version very different from Hamelin's?

Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianolist on November 18, 2006, 10:37:49 PM
Maître

Someone on Piano Street used the circumflex! I bow in humble admiration. I didn't know Microsoft allowed it.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianolist on November 18, 2006, 10:44:21 PM
Is your version very different from Hamelin's?

I was only 18 months at the time of this photo. I was still playing it straight then, but after my second birthday I put away childish things and concentrated on the Godowsky.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: mephisto on November 18, 2006, 10:47:04 PM
Well don't we all?
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowolfi on November 18, 2006, 10:48:45 PM
Yes piânolist, maître of the piânola, microsoft allows that ;D
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 10:55:23 PM
Is your version very different from Hamelin's?
Yes.

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: mephisto on November 18, 2006, 11:00:02 PM
Post me a copy, please, hopefully in pdf, format. I'll give you something great as a thank you.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 11:04:49 PM
Post me a copy, please, hopefully in pdf, format. I'll give you something great as a thank you.
I'm sorry to have to tell you that I don't actually have it in .pdf format so am unable to send it to you electronically; I am able only to get it to you in paper format, if you still want it in this way.

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianolist on November 18, 2006, 11:06:13 PM
This work, however, has yet to have its début...

Perhaps I might make a roll of it?
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: mephisto on November 18, 2006, 11:15:32 PM
I'm sorry to have to tell you that I don't actually have it in .pdf format so am unable to send it to you electronically; I am able only to get it to you in paper format, if you still want it in this way.

Best,

Alistair

Thanks for at leats thinking about it :)
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 11:18:22 PM
Perhaps I might make a roll of it?
That's kind of you to offer, but it seems that Fredrik Ullén wants to play it some time, so I'd like to see what comes of that first, if that's OK. Much appreciated, though!

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianolist on November 18, 2006, 11:25:10 PM
Isn't he the one who has played all the Minute Waltzes?
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: mephisto on November 18, 2006, 11:27:48 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 18, 2006, 11:36:25 PM
Indeed - the very same - on a CD entitled "Got a Minute" (not "God every Minute", susanistimo, dear!) on the Swedish BIS label; he's also recorded all the Ligeti piano music and released the first (and recorded the next two) of six(?) volumes of the complete 100 Transcendental Studies of Sorabji for the same label. He has an additional life as a neuroscientist...

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianolist on November 18, 2006, 11:41:13 PM
I wonder whether he's a member of Piano Street?
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 19, 2006, 12:43:05 AM
I wonder whether he's a member of Piano Street?
Who? God? Susanistimo? Ligeti? Sorabji? Ullén? God is everywhere, of course, so that must surely include Pianostreet, even if Nils Johan is not actually aware of his presence in the sense of having formally sanctioned and recognised Him as a member. Susanistimo is most definitely a member of Pianostreet, as every other member of Pianostreet knows very well. Ligeti died before becoming a member. Sorabji died before Pianostreet was even so much as a something-or-other in Nils Johan's mother's eye. Fredrik Ullén, the splendid Swedish pianeuroscientist - who, of course, I realise is the one that you're actually asking about - is almost certainly not a member of Pianostreet...

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianolist on November 19, 2006, 12:50:06 AM
I'm not surprised, really. I don't suppose he has a minute to himself.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 19, 2006, 05:09:50 AM
so much ground has been covered!  i see there hasn't been God every minute, either.  i suppose i should shake some cinnamon over things again.  i did laugh about the depth of water and your funny outtakes on life, religion, piano, and triple etudes of chopin.  what bizarre things composers do.  but, i suppose - no more bizarre than what 'religious folk' do.  i mean, it's kind of all the same.  we just 'ooh and ahh' over different things.  marc andre-hamelin, although genius that he is - is just another ordinary person to me.  i don't put him way up here - but i also wouldn't dare to rub shoulders with him for fear of saying something utterly stupid.  i would - gaze from a distance and always appreciate his playing.

God, on the other hand - whom i want to meet and shake hands with - has got to be one of the most mysterious things (God) i should ever know.  that is why i anxiously await His return.  i want to see Him in the clouds, experience His divinity, feel the reality of the spiritual world that He speaks of as 'seeing through a glass darkly' for us right now, and to be amazed at His ability to allow the deaf to hear, the lame to walk, the blind to see - and for me to finally play the piano perfectly (thus eliminating competition like marc andre-hamelin - or at least evening the score).  now, this may not seem like a very good reason (being that there might be a tinge of jealousy reeking out of a green puff cloud on one side of my brain.  but, really - it's not competition that i wish to destroy - but rather that i should like to at least be in the running - say fifth or sixth.  i do not wish to be in the thousandths rank.  then, once that is accomplished - i shall drink the wine - as you say - should be drunk.  and, at that point will not do anything stupid that i should regret. 

as i see it - the invitations were sent out for this party when Christ came at pentecost to divide up the Holy Spirit.  He said it was a down payment and that more was coming.  He also spoke of crowns, and cities, and joyful triumph of the saints.  but, there is no triumph in small numbers - so, dutifully - i again implore thal, ahinton, and pianolist (and mephisto - and anyone else who might be reading this) to consider baptism a sort of quick dunk and not a drowning.  and, whomever you truly feel has the spirit that you are seeking - for repentance from sin - is who you should have lay hands upon your head when you come up for air.  now, if i understand correctly, mostly men do this in almost all churches except perhaps presbyterian.  if ahinton is needing the assurance that he will come up after going down - i suggest a man to bring him back up to the surface.  we don't want a woman parishner going down trying to bring him up.  i'm not sure what the 'worst case' scenario has ever been for a baptism - but i'd say a near drowining would not be a 'good experience.'  this is not to say that a few women of other faiths wouldn't try to baptize.

typically, i thought God left the physical procreation to women and the spiritual to men.  using Christ as the ultimate role model - and Him coming as a man - and John the Baptist being a man.  and, basically all the other disciples that baptized - as men.  but, in many cases- women can and do run to bat when the men are not around or are few in number.  even in seemingly orthodox places - women fill in if there are less than 10 men.  i haven't seen any revolts.  i think there's a scripture about women not 'teaching men' - but baptism isn't really 'teaching' per se.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianolist on November 19, 2006, 05:51:26 AM
Our alarm went off an hour early, so I might as well stay up.

We have women priests in most divisions of Christianity over here, except the Romans, so a lot of baptisms are done by women. I don't think they drown anyone, or they might be de-frocked. There's a thought!

If you are going to play the piano for God, then you must think there will be pianos in heaven, P? Will there be piano tuners? Or will the pianos be perfect and never need tuning? If you are to play music whose structure you know, then you will need them to be well-tempered. Will there be factories in heaven which make them? Will capitalism be allowed, so that the Steinway name can live on, or will they all be called Paradise Pianos, or something similar?

I'm not mocking you, by the way. You know I'm not, but others may not realise. If I had to choose between a world of intellectual wickedness, and one of (in my terms) unperceiving innocence, I'd plump for the innocent one every time. But then, there is no choice; the real world is a mixture, and many of the apparent innocents are not innocent of violence against others.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 19, 2006, 09:14:36 AM
so much ground has been covered!  i see there hasn't been God every minute, either.
One does one's best...

i suppose i should shake some cinnamon over things again.
For baptismal or aphrodisiacal reasons?...

i did laugh about the depth of water and your funny outtakes on life, religion, piano, and triple etudes of chopin.  what bizarre things composers do.  but, i suppose - no more bizarre than what 'religious folk' do.
Not for nothing did Sorabji use the phrase (although I'm not certain if he actually coined it) "composers and other lunatics".

i mean, it's kind of all the same.
Oh, no, susanistimo, it isn't - it REALLY isn't the same at all! For starters, we composers rarely make frequent posts to piano fora that are sprinkled (like your cinnamon) with quotations from, references to and thoughts about verse x from chapter y of WTC or the Études Op. 10.

we just 'ooh and ahh' over different things.  marc andre-hamelin, although genius that he is - is just another ordinary person to me.  i don't put him way up here - but i also wouldn't dare to rub shoulders with him for fear of saying something utterly stupid.  i would - gaze from a distance and always appreciate his playing.
But then no one is suggesting that Marc-André should be accorded deity status (well, not in this thread, anyway). But isn't he one of your near neighbo(u)rs in Philly?

God, on the other hand - whom i want to meet and shake hands with - has got to be one of the most mysterious things (God) i should ever know.  that is why i anxiously await His return.  i want to see Him in the clouds, experience His divinity, feel the reality of the spiritual world that He speaks of as 'seeing through a glass darkly' for us right now, and to be amazed at His ability to allow the deaf to hear, the lame to walk, the blind to see - and for me to finally play the piano perfectly (thus eliminating competition like marc andre-hamelin - or at least evening the score). 
Neatly put, but I don't think that Marc-André believes that he plays "perfectly" at all..

now, this may not seem like a very good reason (being that there might be a tinge of jealousy reeking out of a green puff cloud on one side of my brain.  but, really - it's not competition that i wish to destroy - but rather that i should like to at least be in the running - say fifth or sixth.  i do not wish to be in the thousandths rank.  then, once that is accomplished - i shall drink the wine - as you say - should be drunk.  and, at that point will not do anything stupid that i should regret. 
Yes, it's usually wiser to play the piano first and drink the wine afterwards, les you happen to be Fats Waller...

as i see it - the invitations were sent out for this party when Christ came at pentecost to divide up the Holy Spirit.
Well, I didn't receive one; now whether that is because one was not sent to me as an non-baptised-Christian or because it got lost in the post like not only the proverbial cheque but almost half the mail around these parts these days, I cannot say with certainty.

He said it was a down payment and that more was coming.
OK, so maybe I did get that invitation after all but, since it referred to down payments, I probably chucked it straight in the shredder because I assumed it was yet another of these special offer loan deals, or something of the sort.

He also spoke of crowns, and cities, and joyful triumph of the saints.  but, there is no triumph in small numbers - so, dutifully - i again implore thal, ahinton, and pianolist (and mephisto - and anyone else who might be reading this) to consider baptism a sort of quick dunk and not a drowning.  and, whomever you truly feel has the spirit that you are seeking - for repentance from sin - is who you should have lay hands upon your head when you come up for air.  now, if i understand correctly, mostly men do this in almost all churches except perhaps presbyterian.  if ahinton is needing the assurance that he will come up after going down - i suggest a man to bring him back up to the surface.  we don't want a woman parishner going down trying to bring him up.  i'm not sure what the 'worst case' scenario has ever been for a baptism - but i'd say a near drowining would not be a 'good experience.'  this is not to say that a few women of other faiths wouldn't try to baptize.
My reference to the "not baptising but drowning" scenario was not meant to be taken as seriosuly as you appear to suggest here that you have done; what I meant was that any official of the Christian Church about to "baptise" me would probably feel inclined to use this situation as an opportunity to indulge in a little drowning. When you write that
we don't want a woman parishner going down trying to bring him up
I rather think that you're playing right into Thal's hands for one of those special kind of curt, salacious retorts for which we all know and admire him.
But let's be serious now. Why, in any case, would I want "a quick dunk"? and, even if I did, why would I want someone else to do this for me? and, again, why would such a person have to be an official of the Christian Church? I know that I could be baptised into the Christan faith if I were so minded, but I am also well aware that to ask for and expect this would be dishonest of me, so I would not dream of insulting the Christian Church by doing so. Repentance from sin? Now just how honest would THAT be from me, especially were I to leave the Church building afterwards and then return promptly to my desk to continue work on my latest sin (it's a piano quintet, incidentally).

I know that your motives are well-meaning, susanistimo dear, but it's really a non-starter, I'm afraid; put it down, perhaps, to the fact that, for me, "distance lends enchantment" - by which I do not, of course, mean to imply distance from you, but the kind of distance from formal Christian practice that allows me to be an onlooker but debars me from being a participant.

By the way, since you mention "sin" (show me a preaching Christian that doesn't!), I've often been intrigued by the expression "miserable sinner"; it is intended to distinguish that type of sinner from a happy one with a well developed sense of humour?

To a string player, "sin" is the latter 60% of what he/she treats bow hair with, anyway.

To be serious again for a moment, the customary use of the term "sin" when it emerges, as so often it does, from Christian preachers (especially those of the so-called "born-again" variety) is invariably in a holier-than-thou patronising context; I'm not necessarily suggesting that this is how you use it when addressing others about it, but that kind of use of the word is certainly unpleasantly common parlance.

I wonder if can can ever sprinkle cinnamon over a cappuccino again without thinking of you, susanistimo dear, and your apparently fervent desire for me to be baptised into the Christian faith...

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 19, 2006, 02:29:28 PM
considering that the 'holy grail' to one of you is the perfect 'double oboe reed' - i'm not surprised by your misreading of baptism and getting it all confused with sprinkling cinnamon over cappuccino.  remember liszt.  he will be your guide.  he had a raving good time - but when all was said and done - he was quite serious at the end of his life about God and religion and not as joking and making fun with the 'mephisto' who rules death.  imo, everyone who comes close to death realizes it's not of God.  sin and death go together like a hand to a glove.  but, if we realize God created man originally good and to live forever - death is a blight.  it is nothing but a temporary thing for those who are baptized into Christ.  it is death that is being overcome!  adam and eve didn't set us up very well.  Christ came and changed the rules of the game...telling us to 'follow' Him.

Christ gave up many things so that we would 'have life...and have it more abundantly.'  if you were to give up composing things that did not fit your belief structure any longer and turned it to praise for God - you might be surprised at how much return you would have in the long run.  i'm not attempting any more proseletizing because i realize this is neither polite nor necessarily wanted by most.  i simply say - the harder way is the right way.  that's from my experience.  Christ usually makes us give up seeking money and fame for righteousness.  although, he allows some to carry on and still 'be rich' with what they share!  Christ was buried by a wealthy man - and so the wealthy man returned the favor.  matt. 27:57 'and when it was evening, there came a rich man from arimathea, named joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus.  this man went to pilate and asked for the body of jesus.  then, pilate ordered it to be given over to him...'

now, even if this man hadn't become a Christian at that time - i believe that by his deeds he would be saved.  obviously he wasn't antagonistic or evil to Christians and instead - went out of his way (as i see you do for people of other faiths) and actually gave to the very people that perhaps were once a sort of distasteful bunch to him.  the parable of the 'good samaritan' is much the same.  noone really knows if the good samaritan was baptized or was doing anything but carrying on his business.  but, it shows that God sees all of our actions - good and bad - and He remembers and even writes down our works.  that our evil works will be burned up and the only ones left will be our obvious 'judgement' of ourselves. 
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 19, 2006, 04:03:29 PM
i want to add that i do not believe in salvation by works - but that 'faith without works is dead.'  if a person comes to Christ and begins to work by faith - even that little 'mustard seed' can move a mountain.  and yet, that is because it is God working in us for good.  we, of ourselves can do nothing.  'i can do all things thru Him who strengthens me....'

realizing this is all gibberish to some - i don't wish to make myself unclear about the cinnamon and fanning flames to gibberish.  (or about pianos in heaven - but we'll get to that later)  i believe it is God Himself who gave us our five senses.  and, if smell is a tool for teaching - then the fact that the wise men brought sweet smelling incense of frankencense and myrr (sp?) was an indication that God himself is appeased by smell.  that it represents holiness - as with the 'soothing aromas' of various sorts of sacrifice in the old testament.  we are told in the new testament to present our bodies as a 'living sacrifice'  holy and acceptable to God.  so, when i sprinkle you with cinnamon - it would mean nothing without holy actions.  sorry if this sounds too 'bart simpsonish.'  i'm really quite serious about the qualities of holiness smelling beautiful to God, though.

in proverbs, wisdom is as an enticing woman.  the opposite of a harlot in actions.  wisdom 'calls from on top of the heights beside the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand (before choices made in life); beside the gates, at the opening to the city, at the entrance of the doors, she cries out:  to you, o men, i call - and my voice is to the sons of men.  o naive ones, discern prudence; and discern wisdom - listen, for i shall speak noble things; and the opening of my lips will produce right things (it does for anyone who asks God for wisdom and uses the bible for a foundation of knowledge).  for my mouth will utter truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips...for wisdom is better than jewels; and all desireable things cannot compare with her.  i, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and i find knowledge and discretion.  the fear of the Lord is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way, and the perverted mouth, i hate.  counsel is mine and sound wisdom; I am understanding, power is mine.  by me kings reign, and rulers decree justice.  by me princes rule, and nobles, all who judge rightly.


***as i read these passages - i see that a woman's love is so temporary - but God's wisdom is like a woman because a true seduction is one where you actually see something beautiful that you want to obtain or be with and dwell with.  it is not a mirage.  and it is something that makes you feel loved and cared for.  and, also - smells as good as she looks.  in other words, produces the kind of fruit of the tree that it is from LIFE.

i don't claim to have perfection or wisdom, but i have that portion of the Holy Spirit which was granted to me.  so, when i read this passage - i can't help but think of Christ's parable of the kingdom and the table that he is preparing as a 'wedding banquet.'  matt 22 - everyone had an invitation - but some were busy.  so then, he goes into the streets and invites as many has He finds there.  'and they gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.' 

about the pianos - i think that pianos are similar to large harps.  and, who knows if there will be pianos, harps - steinway companies - i don't know.  i do know that revelations mentions a full choir.  a few trumpets.  will we care - at this point?  i don't know.  i think i would.  i think i would ask to be caretaker of the heavenly pianos.  of course, they wouldn't go out of tune!  and, also - i should like to think that they would be dressed in white as everyone else.  but, of course - we'll have to just remember that the black keys used to be black and are now white.  just guessing.  it's all a bit of a joke - as i really haven't a clue what awaits us.  'eye has not seen, nor ear heard - the wonderful things that God has in store for those that love him....'

Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 19, 2006, 05:42:27 PM
Your posts might even become readable if they were not 500 pages long.

Perhaps a change in your medication might help.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianowolfi on November 19, 2006, 06:36:44 PM
i want to add that i do not believe in salvation by works - but that 'faith without works is dead.'  if a person comes to Christ and begins to work by faith - even that little 'mustard seed' can move a mountain.  and yet, that is because it is God working in us for good.  we, of ourselves can do nothing.  'i can do all things thru Him who strengthens me....'

realizing this is all gibberish to some - i don't wish to make myself unclear about the cinnamon and fanning flames to gibberish.  (or about pianos in heaven - but we'll get to that later)  i believe it is God Himself who gave us our five senses.  and, if smell is a tool for teaching - then the fact that the wise men brought sweet smelling incense of frankencense and myrr (sp?) was an indication that God himself is appeased by smell.  that it represents holiness - as with the 'soothing aromas' of various sorts of sacrifice in the old testament.  we are told in the new testament to present our bodies as a 'living sacrifice'  holy and acceptable to God.  so, when i sprinkle you with cinnamon - it would mean nothing without holy actions.  sorry if this sounds too 'bart simpsonish.'  i'm really quite serious about the qualities of holiness smelling beautiful to God, though.

in proverbs, wisdom is as an enticing woman.  the opposite of a harlot in actions.  wisdom 'calls from on top of the heights beside the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand (before choices made in life); beside the gates, at the opening to the city, at the entrance of the doors, she cries out:  to you, o men, i call - and my voice is to the sons of men.  o naive ones, discern prudence; and discern wisdom - listen, for i shall speak noble things; and the opening of my lips will produce right things (it does for anyone who asks God for wisdom and uses the bible for a foundation of knowledge).  for my mouth will utter truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips...for wisdom is better than jewels; and all desireable things cannot compare with her.  i, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and i find knowledge and discretion.  the fear of the Lord is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way, and the perverted mouth, i hate.  counsel is mine and sound wisdom; I am understanding, power is mine.  by me kings reign, and rulers decree justice.  by me princes rule, and nobles, all who judge rightly.

i love those who love me; and those who diligently seek me will find me.  riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and righteousness.  my fruit is better than gold, even pure gold.  and my yield than choicest silver.  i walk in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of justice, to endow those who love me with wealth, that i may fill their treasuries.  the Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.  from everlasting I was established, from the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth (!) when there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.  before the mountains were settled, before the hills I was brought forth; while He had not yet made the earth and the fields, nor the first dust of the world.  when He established the heavens, I was there.  When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep (no one who closely reads the bible would say the earth is flat), when he made firm the skies above, when the springs of the deep became fixed (springs in the ocean).  when he set for the sea it's boundary, so that the water should not transgress His command. 

when He marked out the foundations of the earth; then I was beside Him, as a master workman; and i was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him, rejoicing in the world, His EARTH, and having my delight in the sons of men (so wisdom and knowledge isn't something we regret having).  now, therefore, o sons, listen to me, for blessed are they who keep my ways.  heed instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it.  blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at my doorposts. for he who finds me finds life, and obtains favor from the Lord. but he who sins against me injures himself; all those who hate me love death.'

***as i read these passages - i see that a woman's love is so temporary - but God's wisdom is like a woman because a true seduction is one where you actually see something beautiful that you want to obtain or be with and dwell with.  it is not a mirage.  and it is something that makes you feel loved and cared for.  and, also - smells as good as she looks.  in other words, produces the kind of fruit of the tree that it is from LIFE.

going on in proverbs 9 - this woman goes out of her way to 'prepare a table'  - 'she has prepared her food she has mixed her wine; she has also set her talbe; she has sent out her maidens, she calls from the tops of the heights of the city; whoever is naive, let him turn in here!  (unlike a prostitute who will cause a man grief)  to him who lacks understanding she says, come, eat of my food and drink of the wine i have mixed.  forsake your folly and live, and proceed in the way of understanding.'

***i don't claim to have all this - but i have that portion of the Holy Spirit which was granted to me.  so, when i read this passage - i can't help but think of Christ's parable of the kingdom and the table that he is preparing as a 'wedding banquet.'  matt 22 - everyone had an invitation - but some were busy.  so then, he goes into the streets and invites as many has He finds there.  'and they gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.' 

about the pianos - i think that pianos are similar to large harps.  and, who knows if there will be pianos, harps - steinway companies - i don't know.  i do know that revelations mentions a full choir.  a few trumpets.  will we care - at this point?  i don't know.  i think i would.  i think i would ask to be caretaker of the heavenly pianos.  of course, they wouldn't go out of tune!  and, also - i should like to think that they would be dressed in white as everyone else.  but, of course - we'll have to just remember that the black keys used to be black and are now white.  just guessing.  it's all a bit of a joke - as i really haven't a clue what awaits us.  'eye has not seen, nor ear heard - the wonderful things that God has in store for those that love him....'




Legendary lol ;D have you founded a company now? With 200 employees who write posts for you 24/7? You might be looking for a name for that company. Well, forumers, let's think about it. Perhaps "The Pianistimo Enlightenment Corporation" or "Bible For Piano Forumers inc."  ;D ;)
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 19, 2006, 06:56:45 PM
it did cross my mind to go back and nix half the post - due to the fact this is a piano forum.   ok.  i've said my peace - and eaten 1/4 of the dorito bag.  if there is anything ahinton and i have in common - it's persistence.  well, and a love of music.  i would say that i am not anti- new music or anything.  i feel music is an expression of ourselves, our personalities, and things that impress us that we wish to share.  also, i feel that there is a portion of all of us (at least a 10th) that we should willingly share back with the Creator who made us.  that is the part of us that could, if we wanted, go to church and praise Him.  He enjoys our praise and i think that it makes Him happy He created us when we appreciate all He does.  after all, He is willing to share it all!
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 19, 2006, 07:27:24 PM

Legendary lol ;D have you founded a company now? With 200 employees who write posts for you 24/7? You might be looking for a name for that company. Well, forumers, let's think about it. Perhaps "The Pianistimo Enlightenment Corporation" or "Bible For Piano Forumers inc."  ;D ;)

Yeh, there must be a least 200, all taken from the local mental ward.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 19, 2006, 07:29:09 PM
considering that the 'holy grail' to one of you is the perfect 'double oboe reed' - i'm not surprised by your misreading of baptism and getting it all confused with sprinkling cinnamon over cappuccino.  remember liszt.  he will be your guide.  he had a raving good time - but when all was said and done - he was quite serious at the end of his life about God and religion and not as joking and making fun with the 'mephisto' who rules death.
Liszt is as good a guide to us all in many ways as is anyone else - but please understand (as I thought you already did) that I am not mocking anything to do with religious belief in general or Christian belief in particular. A "double reed" is the kind of reed that oboists (and bassoonists) always use; the search for the perfect one has oft been described by oboists as a quest for "the Holy Grail".

The idea of cinnamon sprinkling and its possible association with the baptismal act was yours and yours alone - I did not bring this up, so I am not "getting confused" about it at all.

imo, everyone who comes close to death realizes it's not of God.  sin and death go together like a hand to a glove.  but, if we realize God created man originally good and to live forever - death is a blight.  it is nothing but a temporary thing for those who are baptized into Christ.  it is death that is being overcome!  adam and eve didn't set us up very well.  Christ came and changed the rules of the game...telling us to 'follow' Him.
Too many people come along and change the rules, especially when they don't happen to like the game or the way it's being played; I'm not suggesting for one moment that Christ did this, however. I did tell you earlier that the products of scientific research will eventually make life and death a lifestyle choice (much as I deprecate that term per se) rather than the inevitability that they are today, so I really cannot bring myself to accept some of the rest of what you say about this.

Christ gave up many things so that we would 'have life...and have it more abundantly.'  if you were to give up composing things that did not fit your belief structure any longer and turned it to praise for God - you might be surprised at how much return you would have in the long run.
Well - in the spirit of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", may I make to you the entreaty "let she who might wish to see me composing in a more godly manner cast the first composition lesson"? How might you wish me to go about this? And on what basis might you perceive that the way I compose is somehow not as it should be? This is not intended as a combative question but as a literal one, so please answer it as best you can; the better your foreknowledge of my work from which you could quote music examples in illustration of your points in support of your theory, the more credible one may presume it will be.

i'm not attempting any more proseletizing because i realize this is neither polite nor necessarily wanted by most.
Well, I'd not noticed this, but it's a blessed relief to know it!

i simply say - the harder way is the right way.  that's from my experience.
And the way I go about composition is the "easy way", is it? If you really believe that, you know something that I've never known...

Christ usually makes us give up seeking money and fame for righteousness.  although, he allows some to carry on and still 'be rich' with what they share!
Christ never worked for the Performing Rights Society! Have you any idea how hard it is to "give up seeking " money as a composer when there's so little to give up in the first place and such little as there is has in any case to be fought for with no small amount of forceful persistence?

God sees all of our actions - good and bad - and He remembers and even writes down our works.
Can he use Sibelius? If so, I'll be after you for his phone number to ask if he'll act of my editor / copyist.

that our evil works will be burned up and the only ones left will be our obvious 'judgement' of ourselves. 
So do I assume that God knows better than I do about which of my works should be burned or otherwise destroyed due to their general inadequacy? It has famously been said that no one has ever put up a statue to a critic; presumably, no one will therefore put one up to God in his capacity as a music critic...

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: donjuan on November 19, 2006, 07:34:53 PM
post deleted
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 19, 2006, 07:35:00 PM
if it makes you any happier - even my children roll their eyes to the bible.  but, i don't really force it on them.  if they ask me something - i'll usually tell them what i think about 'whatever.'  thankfully, my son is past the tattoo days.  he used to say he was going to have at least three girlfriends at a time and get a bunch of tattoos.  this used to make me worry.  i'd try to talk to him occasioanlly (hoping he was joking) and come to find out, he was.  but, i'd tell him these 'what if's'  - like 'what if you accidentally tattooed a girls name and then didn't like her anymore - then you'd have to subtly change the name and it would be more pain all over again.'

now, with my daughter - it's suggestive lyrics to songs.  i say 'do you know what they just said?'  she says 'i'm only listening to the rhythm and just humming.'  'smack dab' has to be my nemesis song - but she's always turning it up in the car.  one day,  (like yesterday) - i finally had enough and said 'i'm not listening to this anymore - and changed it back to the classical station.'  yes.  we may be at the beginning of a long quiet war.  but, at least i say it like it is.  i mean - what guy is treating a girl right in music lyrics.  i keep telling her - 'don't date any guys that don't treat you right.' 

i feel somewhat good about what i say - though - because there's shows on tv with the parents ill at ease with a current boyfriend and telling reasons why.  my daughter doesn't have a boyfriend yet, thankfully - but i'm trying to 'set her up' to know how to pick one.  right now - it's cool and tough that counts.  i think she deserves gentle and nice.   
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 19, 2006, 07:47:04 PM
dear ahinton,

i was not really aiming to jab at your compositions or your person at all!  you just mentioned that you don't feel some would set you right with the ministers that baptize - and they might drown you.  i know you were joking.  but, as i see it - we all have this 'inner voice' that is improved upon when you receive the Holy Spirit.  things you don't typically 'see' the first time around.

basically like a composition that you are continually improving and changing a few notes to fit the scheme of things.  as i see it - our lives are compositions - and each day we live determines the notes and the harmonies.  it would be really neat if each one of us was a literal 'song.'

you and don juan are completely right about not being overly concerned with other's lives to the omission of our own perfection (not that it's perfectly achievable in this life).  there are many times i am on the computer too long.  some of it is because i have a lot of work stacked up.  and, some is that my children are a very busy sort.  my five year old, last night, must have pulled every toy out of the toybox whenwe were gone last night to a concert.  i spend many evenings with her during the week -but she also goes out and plays with some of her friends.  she likes to bicycle, too, and is often two or three houses to the right or left playing with her friends. 

mentally, talking about music and God help my outlook as well.  they are two things i am most interested in.  it gives me something to meditate on (whether a musical score or a passage) and prove true or false or just have some kind of opinion about.  this week, being holiday week - i will be at the park, the dentists office, and Kindergarten parent/teacher meetings.  i am never lacking something to do.  oh yes.  and this kindergarten musical.  i'm helping play the piano for it.  yikes.  if i don't do this right - where are my next load of students coming?
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 19, 2006, 08:14:41 PM
if it makes you any happier - even my children roll their eyes to the bible.  but, i don't really force it on them.  if they ask me something - i'll usually tell them what i think about 'whatever.'  thankfully, my son is past the tattoo days.  he used to say he was going to have at least three girlfriends at a time and get a bunch of tattoos.  this used to make me worry.  i'd try to talk to him occasioanlly (hoping he was joking) and come to find out, he was.  but, i'd tell him these 'what if's'  - like 'what if you accidentally tattooed a girls name and then didn't like her anymore - then you'd have to subtly change the name and it would be more pain all over again.'

now, with my daughter - it's suggestive lyrics to songs.  i say 'do you know what they just said?'  she says 'i'm only listening to the rhythm and just humming.'  'smack dab' has to be my nemesis song - but she's always turning it up in the car.  one day,  (like yesterday) - i finally had enough and said 'i'm not listening to this anymore - and changed it back to the classical station.'  yes.  we may be at the beginning of a long quiet war.  but, at least i say it like it is.  i mean - what guy is treating a girl right in music lyrics.  i keep telling her - 'don't date any guys that don't treat you right.' 

i feel somewhat good about what i say - though - because there's shows on tv with the parents ill at ease with a current boyfriend and telling reasons why.  my daughter doesn't have a boyfriend yet, thankfully - but i'm trying to 'set her up' to know how to pick one.  right now - it's cool and tough that counts.  i think she deserves gentle and nice.   

Well that's cleared that question up then ???.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 19, 2006, 08:24:01 PM
dear ahinton,

i was not really aiming to jab at your compositions or your person at all!  you just mentioned that you don't feel some would set you right with the ministers that baptize - and they might drown you.  i know you were joking.  but, as i see it - we all have this 'inner voice' that is improved upon when you receive the Holy Spirit.  things you don't typically 'see' the first time around.
No, that was not the whole of what I meant. The drowning thing was purely a joke based on the notion that if what the average Christian preacher might perceive as a lost cause - i.e. a composer
like me - came along and requested baptism, he/she might well be irritated into thinking "OK, how big's the face and how much deeper do we have to make the water?". I know you were not seeking to undermine my work as such, but whilst I do not go out of my way to try to be approachable in it, I do not go out of my way to be unapproachable in it either, believing as I do that those who do seek deliberately to do either will likely compromise themsleves. Things that one does not see first time around is a very good point of yours - I experience it all the time about my work, especially in the presence of really gifted and perceptive performers and this is most rewarding. I just cannot get to your notion of some formal "reception of the Holy Spirit" as though this can be achieved by listening to some hot gospeller or being "dunked", as you graphically put it. I do not at all deny the kind of thing of which you write, but the "inner voice" of which you quite correctly write is something that develops - as long as one lets it and encourages it as far as possible - by means of all manner of "receptivity", so for all that one should seek to aspire in what one does, I would be wary of claiming anything about the "reception of the Holy Spirit" in direct relation to what I am trying to do., even if only because this might seem unwarrantably arrogant of me (and I don't do arrogance, folks).

basically like a composition that you are continually improving and changing a few notes to fit the scheme of things.  as i see it - our lives are compositions - and each day we live determines the notes and the harmonies.  it would be really neat if each one of us was a literal 'song.'
I think that in many ways you are not far off the mark here - but, again, I simply cannot equate this kind of questing with contriving some easy acceptance of the proselytising of the preacher who would seek to persuade me that as long as I just go along and accept this and that, salvation will be mine and not otherwise.

mentally, talking about music and God help my outlook as well.  they are two things i am most interested in.  it gives me something to meditate on (whether a musical score or a passage) and prove true or false or just have some kind of opinion about.
That's fine - but I have to tell you that I think (rightly or wrongly) that you have brought yourself to find many things easy - or seemingly so - by the sheer extent of your unquestioning adherence to those aspects of your faith association with which you regale us all with remarkable frequency; I have to admit that I do not find so many things in life so simple to rationalise, accept and promote. I am not, of course, trying to pretend that you do not also have a busy life with your children and other commitments, but then this is not what I am referring to here, which is that I simply cannot just arbitrarily go along to "God" in the allegedly manifest form of some preacher or other and confess my sins, repent and request that thereafter I be made a paid-up life member of the Christian Club. You and "pianowelsh" may well despair - but you surely each have better things to do! That said, I hope that you know - as indeed you shold by now - enough of my views on religion in general and on Christianity and Christians in particular not to take offence at anything I have written here.

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 19, 2006, 08:26:03 PM
Well that's cleared that question up then ???.

Thal
What question? Where? When? I must have been failing to pay due attention, for I missed that one entirely...

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: penguinlover on November 19, 2006, 08:39:08 PM
God is not something, or someone, you just add to your live.  He is my life.  There is nothing better to do with my time than please Him.  That doesn't mean that I go around preaching or praying all the time, but it give focus on the things I do or don't do.  If I please God, nothing else in this world matters!
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: thalbergmad on November 19, 2006, 08:40:21 PM
What question? Where? When? I must have been failing to pay due attention, for I missed that one entirely...

Best,

Alistair

See Don Juans post a little while back and about 50,000 words back.

Thal
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 19, 2006, 10:31:10 PM
See Don Juans post a little while back and about 50,000 words back.

Thal
Oh, dear; must I? No disrespect intended to anyone here, but this entire thing has surely gotten so out of hand that it's run past any usefulness that it might ever have had. We know who the principal "God warriors" are on this forum; we also know that the forum is supposedly intended to be dedicated to matters pianistic. May I formally invite "pianistimo", "pianowelsh" and/or any of the other forum members who happen also to be principal members of God's PR company to post examples of His playing of Chopin Op. 10, Alkan Op. 39 - and, of course (since their God is a Christian God) Messiaen's Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant-Jésus and Liszt's Bénédiction de Dieu dans la Solitude - and then forummers can, regardless of their personal beliefs or otherwise, discuss these performances on their own merits and we can all then perhaps begin to consider God as someone other than a "warrior" or some one who has to be represented by "warriors" - for there is surely more than enough war-mongering going on in His name (not that that's His fault, of course) already...

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 20, 2006, 03:18:52 AM
you surely do make some difficult requests, ahinton.  first, i am seeking to show you an easy step by step process to eliminate the pains of death in your life - and you go on about how shortly it will be a choice.  apparently you are one of those belivers in cryonics or something?!  as far as i see - we're made to die.  our hearts only last so long - and if we were revived in our present state at 100 years or so - we'd shortly die again.  unless you're wanting to have a babies heart transplanted in a 1oo year old body.  but then, what about the brain.  we'd all be 'goo gooing' again at 101.  and crawling around on the floor.  and filling diapers with who knows what kind of mess.  of course, that could already have been a problem. 

no, ahinton, you've got it backwards.  the song, that is.  it is not 'the song that never ends.'  the song - simply ends with 'eghhsaosdfjkasl;fja' i can't breath - gasp.  dead.  although, i'd have to say that alkan was one of the more creatively dying individuals.  i'm abit confused why God would want to play the piano at all - since He could barely fit his feet on the earth as a footstool.  not sure if we can accomodate God fully at the piano.  i'd say - there's no piano big enough for his little finger.  He'd have to return in human form (which He probably will do - come to think of it- so we can see him) stop the trumpet playing - find a decently tuned piano - and then - begin something of bach's or handels.  but, then He'd be 'singing to the choir.'  obviously, if he has a choir already - he doesn't need to sing and play. 

i don't know, ahinton, about you - but i feel that there is no arrogance at all in being simple minded about baptism.  take the fellow in the bible (naaman?) that was plaged with leprosy.  he was told to go wash seven times in the jordan.  he didn't want to and did pretty much everything but that.  his servants suggested he do as he was told - so grudgingly he went.  sure enough.  a miracle happened and he was cured.  strange as it seems - simple things can lead to amazing results.  the only time one might be arrogant is if they thought they found the 'cure' themselves.  the cure for death, that is.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: donjuan on November 20, 2006, 03:31:34 AM
as far as i see - we're made to die.
at my uncle's funeral yesterday, the preacher at the podium told us that it's all Eve's fault we die because she ate the apple and created a 'genetic defect' to pass on to all humans.

of course, the preacher was an idiot -he said death is the same thing as sleep.  and he said this directly to my 6 and 9 year old cousins about their daddy, which really pissed me off.

I'm all for looking tragedy in the face rather than lying to little girls.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 20, 2006, 03:44:19 AM
people told me my dad 'fell asleep' too - and from there on out for a few years i had some serious sleep disturbances.  i think you have to be careful - as you say - what you say.  espeically if they don't understand LITERAL sleep with death sleep.  the bible does say that there is a ressurrection of the dead.  thus = a period of death - rather than a perpetual state of death.  but, to explain this to 6 and 9 year olds who just lost their father and might be a bit anxious to see him again - i'd probably say 'you won't be seeing your father again in this life - unless Jesus Christ himself returns in our lifetime.  but, you can rest assured that Jesus Christ will now be your real Father as well as your spiritual Father.' 

this does not negate your love, though, don juan.  i'm so sorry to hear of the death -especially for such young girls.  seemingly, we can turn bad situations into good by extending ourselves beyond what we thought we had time for.  i'd show up occasionally and take them out - and do stuff with them.  go to their volleyball games, whatever!  cheer them on.  they'll need it.  ps how did your uncle pass away?
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: donjuan on November 20, 2006, 05:02:56 AM
this does not negate your love, though, don juan.  i'm so sorry to hear of the death -especially for such young girls.  seemingly, we can turn bad situations into good by extending ourselves beyond what we thought we had time for.  i'd show up occasionally and take them out - and do stuff with them.  go to their volleyball games, whatever!  cheer them on.  they'll need it.  ps how did your uncle pass away?
thanks for your support susan.  It has indeed been a terrible week for my whole family and I.  I don't know what it is with families and wanting to be together when we lose a family member; personally, I just wanted to be alone so I could try to concentrate on something else..

What ripped my heart out was that at the funeral, my little cousins placed a few of their toys inside the coffin along with a picture of them hugging their daddy.

He was only 43, and on Nov. 10 he was having dinner with his mom; on Nov. 11, he was violently ill (he thought it was stomach flu); on Nov. 12, he was dead. 

We still don't know what he died from; the medical examiner has to do some toxicology tests and we wont get results for 3-4 months.

As for his girls, they are so young they don't grieve like adults grieve.  You should have seen them on the day their father died; they were telling jokes from school and happy they don't have to go to class the next day.  And at the funeral home yesterday, they were playing tag in the banquet hall.  I dont think they will really miss their father until they grow up a bit.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 20, 2006, 06:42:34 AM
first, i am seeking to show you an easy step by step process to eliminate the pains of death in your life - and you go on about how shortly it will be a choice.  apparently you are one of those belivers in cryonics or something?!  as far as i see - we're made to die.
That's very kind of you to do that - really, it is - but what are these "pains of death" of which you write? At the moment, I am not dead (otherwise it would almost certainly be very difficult for me to type this) and, as far as I can tell, I am not suffering in the throes of impending death (although one cannot currently know for certain, of course, when the latter may occur). Cryogenics is certainly one possibility, but it was not this that I had in mind. Medical research has made many advances over the years; one effect of these has been increased life expectancy in certain parts of the world. Of course it is - and will remain - vital that any continuing research that further extends human lifespan must accommodate the need to ensure that the life so extended is worth having - i.e. that one is not merely enabled to survive but to live - actively, profitably and meaningfully, including continuing to work, for those who choose to. Organ replacement has done much to extend lifespan but remains severaly problematic (albeit less so than in its early days); stem cell research may well turn out in due course to be of considerably greater significance in the ways that it may enable organs, tissue, nerves, etc. to repair themselves and protect themslevs against damage and deterioration, rather than having to be replaced in various forms of "spare part" surgery. So - I am writing not about putting people in the freezer and thawing them out years later but about the business of working towards the goal of delaying, stalling and eventually preventing the deterioration of human physical form that you and I and everyone else has so far had to take for granted. Of course, if and when this becomes successful and widespread, it will create many potential problems of population numbers, space, etc. - but then humanity has always been faced with monumental problems and it will be up to humanity to set about resolving these, just as has been the case with all the problems that have beset it in the past.

no, ahinton, you've got it backwards.  the song, that is.  it is not 'the song that never ends.'  the song - simply ends with 'eghhsaosdfjkasl;fja' i can't breath - gasp.  dead.
What, precisely, have I "got" "backwards"? I presume you to be suggesting some kind of anaolgy beween a song and a lifespan - not an unreasonable thing to do, in some ways, perhaps -  but, as I implied earlier, whereas human life still has a "span" at present, our expectations of it - at least in the wealthier parts of the world - have already increased and there may be no limit to the increase in those expectations or to their eventually being met in reality. I think that you assume that human life must by definition have a limited span, regardless of the advances of medical science and I suspect that your stance on this is largely, if not entirely, down to your interpretations of your religious beliefs which you find impossible to reconcile with the notion of unending human life ("threescore years and ten" and all that - try telling that one to the still-working Elliott Carter who is due to reach age 98 in just three weeks' time).

although, i'd have to say that alkan was one of the more creatively dying individuals.
You just would have to say it, wouldn't you?! I know what you mean by this, of course, but the story of how Alkan met his death is just that - a story, wholly unsubstantiated and now of legendary status, notwithstanding the efforts of Alkan scholars to debunk it! Just be careful about taking books down from the top shelf and don't ever keep any of your Bibles up there (not that I could ever really imagine you being prepared to keep a Bible that far from you at any time, mind...).

i don't know, ahinton, about you
No, very probably not - but I really wouldn't let this worry you too much if I were you!

i feel that there is no arrogance at all in being simple minded about baptism.
But I did not say that there was or is; please have another look at the context in which I placed the word "arrogant" to observe exactly what I did say. The only thing that I find "simple minded about baptism" here is the apparent notion that anyone can just go and be "dunked" by a Christian minister, vicar, priest or what you will, in order that some miracle will have occurred such as the one you mention as having occurred to the leper in the Bible story below; life - however long or short - just ain't that simple...

and take the fellow in the bible (naaman?) that was plaged with leprosy.  he was told to go wash seven times in the jordan.  he didn't want to and did pretty much everything but that.  his servants suggested he do as he was told - so grudgingly he went.  sure enough.  a miracle happened and he was cured.  strange as it seems - simple things can lead to amazing results.  the only time one might be arrogant is if they thought they found the 'cure' themselves.  the cure for death, that is.
We don't all live near that river - and I'd seriously recommend discouraging anyone from trying this in the Thames. But, seriously - this is potentially dangerous talk. If taken literally and applied without discretion, what you write here might be seen as tantamount to accusing all successful medical researchers as arrogant in claiming that they have discovered the means to cure or alleviate any disease. Yes, of course, it could perhaps be argued that the requisite knowledge to enable such effects is a pre-existing resource just waiting for medical researchers to use their powers of reasoning to tap into it and make their discoveries - rather as Busoni (a human visionary if ever there was one) suggested that there is no such thing as "new" music as such, only music out there waiting to be discovered and communicated - a notion that prompted him to suggest the term "diviner" rather than "composer" as more appropriate for those who practise the art which I practise. Nevertheless, humans work with the resources around them in nature. It is indeed folly to try to defy nature completely, but to work in ever-increasing harmony with it (as the best medical researchers and others do) is surely a potentially beneficial thing for humanity as a whole.

I am genuinely happy that your baptised state gives you positive feelings about things, as long as you try at the same time not to let it prevent you from bringing yourself to recognise that humanity, by definition, embraces an infinite variety of beliefs, thought processes, desires, aspirations, emotions, as well as the constant metamorphoses of all of these, just as nature itself is an ever-developing thing; at present, you seem not to do this, preferring instead to try to put finite limits on the infinite (if you'll pardon my saying so) by giving out inflexible recipes for life in the guise of nuggets of religious truth. We are, in other words, not all the same; recalling the words of a once popular music-hall song that claimed that "we all go the same way home", the composer Delius once wrote about the various dance crazes in the years immedately following the end of WWI, "Dixie, Duncan, Dalcroze, Dyaghilev: we don't all dance the same way home!". And please don't grasp this statement to justify trying to persuade me to go salsa-ing and tango-ing, susanistimo, dear, for the results of that would almost certainly be more infinitely disastrous even than having me "dunked" by one of your preachers!...

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 20, 2006, 06:47:22 AM
at my uncle's funeral yesterday, the preacher at the podium told us that it's all Eve's fault we die because she ate the apple and created a 'genetic defect' to pass on to all humans.

of course, the preacher was an idiot -he said death is the same thing as sleep.  and he said this directly to my 6 and 9 year old cousins about their daddy, which really pissed me off.

I'm all for looking tragedy in the face rather than lying to little girls.
How disgusting! I cannot imagine how the person who conducted your uncle's funeral ever got to be a preacher in the first place with sentiments like that. If I were you, I'd almost feel inclined to sue. This would have been utterly irresponsible - as well as wholly tasteless - behaviour at the best of times; foisting it on you and other bereaved members of your family at a time of particular vulnerability serves only to make it far worse.

I am very sorry both to hear your news and to learn that you and your family have been so gravely insulted, especially since this insult originated with one who is supposed to be a servant of a religious faith.

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: jpianoflorida on November 20, 2006, 12:50:42 PM
Oh, dear; must I? No disrespect intended to anyone here, but this entire thing has surely gotten so out of hand that it's run past any usefulness that it might ever have had. We know who the principal "God warriors" are on this forum; we also know that the forum is supposedly intended to be dedicated to matters pianistic. May I formally invite "pianistimo", "pianowelsh" and/or any of the other forum members who happen also to be principal members of God's PR company to post examples of His playing of Chopin Op. 10, Alkan Op. 39 - and, of course (since their God is a Christian God) Messiaen's Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant-Jésus and Liszt's Bénédiction de Dieu dans la Solitude - and then forummers can, regardless of their personal beliefs or otherwise, discuss these performances on their own merits and we can all then perhaps begin to consider God as someone other than a "warrior" or some one who has to be represented by "warriors" - for there is surely more than enough war-mongering going on in His name (not that that's His fault, of course) already...

Best,

Alistair

while i totally agree with you that this has gotten out of hand.....  it is in the "anything but piano" section...    What we should do(I'm talking about myself as well) is just ignore the threads we don't care about....and leave them to others to discuss.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 20, 2006, 02:06:07 PM
i had no idea eliott carter was still carrying on at 98.  more power to him, i guess.  and forgive me for bringing up alkan.  sometimes i do stir the pot - just to tease you.  you have to admit - you do a lot of teasing too, alistair.  amidst all this teasing - you are right.  i will never see death as something overcome by anything but Jesus sacrifice for our 'death' to be a temporary 'sleep' as don juan put it.  of course, for children to comprehend 'sleep' in this matter is nigh impossible.  i remember attempting to stay awake all night whenever possible after the death of my father (at 2).  noone really knew about it - or figured that one out.  i do remember going to a church and being handed a nightlight in church school and thinking that was a really great thing.  odd things one remembers about childhood!

ok.  here's why i think the way i do.  i peter3:21 goes on about noah - where 8 people were brought safely through the water (you may not believe this - but i do) then 'corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the ressurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.'

vs 18 is interesting, too 'for Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.'

the effect of this baptism, agreed, is not instantaneous.  but, we cease to find pleasure in the typical things this world offers.  perhaps you have already.  i think you're a case by yourself - and quite a loving person.  'therefore since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has sufferred in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.'

now, i don't consider you lustful man in your own right.  perhaps the only things you seemingly lust for would be more stave paper and ink.  also, you have a good lust for musical facts and composition practices.  i don't thing God is bothered by this.  what happened in my own life was a realization that God thinks differently than we do.  we can set goals (which are all good and right) - but sometimes he changes them.  say, we're going off to a piano lesson (me) and see someone in an accident.  do we drive by and go to the lesson and forget the person who is hurt?  obviously no.  and many people think like this already.  having kindness in their heart.  but where does this care come from directly?  God!  he wants us to put other humans in front of temporary objects such as pianos and paper.  especially if they are in need.  i speak to myself more than you - because at times i have been known to practice the piano through all kinds of howls and crying.  it sort of depends upon 'the cup being full or empty.' 

as i see it - we refill this 'coffee cup' of the Holy Spirit in the morning by prayer and study.  this morning - i drank my fill of the story about jeremiah telling baruch (the scribe) to write a bunch of stuff down.  then, it gets told to everyone.  everyone thinks that the king should hear it (being that it is words that are inspired by God to tell the people) - and the king takes a pen knife and slices it up and uses it for his fireplace kindling.  so, then, of course, jeremiah and baruch are in trouble and have to go hide.  while hiding, baruch is forced to write the whole durn thing over again - and add the bit about the king's deeds and why it's not going to be so good for him after this.  the king, in fact, will never again have a man on the throne that is from his bloodline.  why do i tell you this?  i don't know.  i really haven't a clue why i try so hard with you alistair.  i think it is because you show seeming interest by answering this thread - only to be as stubborn as my own son when it comes to 'seeing God.'  my son was three and when he went out on the patio table and stood at his highest - he said 'i don't see God.'  therefore, from that day on church and God were nonexistent.  someday, I say!
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 20, 2006, 03:09:30 PM
i had no idea eliott carter was still carrying on at 98.  more power to him, i guess.
Indeed!

and forgive me for bringing up alkan.  sometimes i do stir the pot - just to tease you.
I wasn't aware that you were stirring anything, actually: I had merely assumed - incorrectly, as now it would seem - that you did not realise that the tale of Alkan's demise courtesy of a certain heavy religious tome other than the Christian Bible is as mythical as the Scottish castle in which Sorabji was once said to have lived.

i will never see death as something overcome by anything but Jesus sacrifice for our 'death' to be a temporary 'sleep' as don juan put it.
We know well what you believe here - and that's fine for you, of course - but do you assume and/or expect such belief to be universally applicable, in the sense and to the extent that Christ's "sacrifice" and its relevance to and effect on individual human deaths applies equally to Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Hindus, atheists, etc., as well as to those who just happen to be non-subsribers to any specific religious group? - for, if so, that sounds to me to be all too uncomfortably indicative of a contention that the Christians are the only ones with the right answers on this subject.

here's why i think the way i do.  i peter3:21 goes on about noah - where 8 people were brought safely through the water (you may not believe this - but i do) then 'corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the ressurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.'

vs 18 is interesting, too 'for Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.'
I know that you believe this, whereas I do not claim to be in any position to be able to believe or disbelieve it, but what I do believe is that it's all completely Christ-specific, so it seems to me either that it is applicable only to those Christians like you who believe the whole of this or that you are using your belief as an excuse to seek to foist it all on everyone else as though it applies universally (see above).

the effect of this baptism, agreed, is not instantaneous.
Oh. How long does it take, then? And is its effective time-frame different for Christians than it is for non-Christians? and are there any other factors affecting that time-frame?

but, we cease to find pleasure in the typical things this world offers.  perhaps you have already.  i think you're a case by yourself
I think that we all find things that are pleasurable and things that are not among the many things that "this world offers"; I think also that we are all "cases by ourselves".

now, i don't consider you lustful man in your own right.  perhaps the only things you seemingly lust for would be more stave paper and ink.
Thank you, but I have to tell you that, instead of "lusting after" such things ,I tend to purchase good quality plain paper and then print on it from my computer whatever staff systems I want at any given moment; likewise, I tend to buy ink rather than lust after it.

also, you have a good lust for musical facts and composition practices.  i don't thing God is bothered by this.
I'm quite certain that He isn't!

what happened in my own life was a realization that God thinks differently than we do.  we can set goals (which are all good and right) - but sometimes he changes them.
We none of think alike anyway. And how does God "change" goals that we set ourselves? Where's the evidence for that? Does He only do this for those who believe in Him? - or is it only possible for those who believe in Him to recognise that he does this and how He does it?

say, we're going off to a piano lesson (me) and see someone in an accident.  do we drive by and go to the lesson and forget the person who is hurt?  obviously no.  and many people think like this already.  having kindness in their heart.  but where does this care come from directly?  God!  he wants us to put other humans in front of temporary objects such as pianos and paper.
Again, whilst I do not doubt your belief in what your God wants, were you to be taken literally here it would be necessary to extrapolate from it your contention that those who do not believe in God, as well as those of other religious persuasions who see God differently to the way that you do, can accordingly have no kindness in their hearts. You don't really believe that, do you?

i speak to myself more than you
I must confess that sometimes it does rather feel abit like that!

i really haven't a clue why i try so hard with you alistair.
Perhaps it's because it is you, rather than I, that are the stubborn one!

i think it is because you show seeming interest by answering this thread - only to be as stubborn as my own son when it comes to 'seeing God.'  my son was three and when he went out on the patio table and stood at his highest - he said 'i don't see God.'  therefore, from that day on church and God were nonexistent.  someday, I say!
My inability literally to "see" God (as you, "pianowelsh" and others put it) has nothing whatsoever to do with any stubbornness on my part; indeed, far from being "stubborn" in this, I have an open mind and also do not claim that my views are "right" - merely that they are my views. Perhaps it's just because my sight is not as good as I'd like it to be! But to return to being serious, it's pretty clear to me that, for reasons best known to yourself, you have convinced yourself that I do not believe in God; I'm not sure if you've ever bothered to notice, but, although I admit to having stated that I am unable literally to "see" God, I have never, anywhere on this forum, actually stated that I do not believe in God, so I must conclude that, like so much else in these matters, you have taken it upon yourself to decide that I do not believe in God despite having no evidence one way or the other about my beliefs or otherwise.

Susanistimo, dear - DO please stop troubling yourself with this on my behalf and go and do some piano practice; be a piano warrior and fight for Alkan! (I know he was Jewish, but he was a wonderful piano composer too!)...

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 20, 2006, 05:25:59 PM
fight for alkan.  what do you take me as?  i would rather die fighting for God.  but, i see your point about assumptions.  forgive me on that one! 

well, off to the dentist.  checking those four wisdom teeth holes in my son's mouth.  he seems to be in much better spirits with them out.  i think his teeth were so crowded that he was experiencing some kind of tension from his teeth.  now, they have room. 

well, rambling aside - i did hear a rather interesting composition you might want to know about.  it was by behzad ranjbaran (born in 1955) and was incredibly amazing!  it's inception was in 2000 and the name of the piece is 'seven passages.'  if you haven't heard it - you might want to.  the orchestration is truly amazing, too. 
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 20, 2006, 05:52:23 PM
fight for alkan.  what do you take me as?
I don't "take" you at all, susanistimo, dear! You are susanistimo already, so there's no need. But, to try to answer your question literally, I suppose that I could say that I'd not "take you" as either a Jew or a Frenchwoman (let alone a French Lieutenant's woman - oh, forget that bit!)

i would rather die fighting for God.
But we don't want you to die fighting for anyone, susanistimo! Apart from any other considerations, who'd fill your shoes on Pianostreet?

but, i see your point about assumptions.  forgive me on that one!
No need to "forgive" anything!

well, off to the dentist.  checking those four wisdom teeth holes in my son's mouth.  he seems to be in much better spirits with them out.  i think his teeth were so crowded that he was experiencing some kind of tension from his teeth.  now, they have room. 
Good luck!

well, rambling aside - i did hear a rather interesting composition you might want to know about.  it was by behzad ranjbaran (born in 1955) and was incredibly amazing!  it's inception was in 2000 and the name of the piece is 'seven passages.'  if you haven't heard it - you might want to.  the orchestration is truly amazing, too.
Thanks. I've not heard of the work or its composer, so I'll try to check it out. Do I presume this to be a complete change of subject, or does the work have some connection with what you've been writing about here?

Best,

Alistair
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: pianistimo on November 20, 2006, 06:48:03 PM
oh dear, alistair.  you lead me on.  why do you yet ask another question?  it is as if you want to drain it all from me.  i shall be a heap on the floor if you continue. 

i accidentally thought my son had a 1:15 appointment - but it is now apparent it is at 2:30 - so i am 'whitterring' again - as thal so politely puts it. 

ok.  what i liked about this piece of ranjbaran's is that it is #1 inspired by a poem (an epic poem at that - which i tend to love - whether real to life or not) #2 has incredible creativity #3 has unusual instrumentation.  now, it is very unclear as to who delivers this 'rostam' from the encounters he has with 'wild beasts, witches, demons, and dragons' - but if it is a true deliverance - that's all we care about at this point.  rostam, the hero of the book, goes through seven trials.  throughout these trials, rostam emergest triumphant.  the story depicts life with all it's pain, joy, triumph, tragedy, and struggle.  you can hear it very well in the music!  and, at a certain point i heard a bit of saint-saens influence as well. 

i really  liked the creativity of this man - and do not usually judge things from a 'strict' baptist convention performance standard when going to public concerts.  i just liked it.  that's all i can say.  perhaps i was moved by the wrong spirit - but it was effective to moving passion and quite descriptive.  i tend to have an overactive imagination - so perhaps it was not so good for me in the long run.  i wanted to stay and hear it over and over.  i cannot say that for very many 'new compositions' although i hope you hear that from some of those who heard your work.  amazingly this work was much shorter than i was envisioning.  i think 14 minutes total.  but it sounded like at least 20 minutes.  how can that be?  it was gripping.  lots of action.
Title: Re: The God Warrior
Post by: ahinton on November 20, 2006, 08:52:43 PM
oh dear, alistair.  you lead me on. 
Er - no, pianistimo, dear; I do not "lead" you anywhere...

why do you yet ask another question?  it is as if you want to drain it all from me.  i shall be a heap on the floor if you continue.
Pianistimo, I do not seek to drain anything from anyone - still less to leave anyone as a heap on the floor; any question that I may ever have asked of you will have ben prompted solely by remarks that you have yourself made. If any of my music has that kind of effect on any of its listeners, well - but then who says that it might do so?...

ok.  what i liked about this piece of ranjbaran's is that it is #1 inspired by a poem (an epic poem at that - which i tend to love - whether real to life or not) #2 has incredible creativity #3 has unusual instrumentation.  now, it is very unclear as to who delivers this 'rostam' from the encounters he has with 'wild beasts, witches, demons, and dragons' - but if it is a true deliverance - that's all we care about at this point.  rostam, the hero of the book, goes through seven trials.  throughout these trials, rostam emergest triumphant.  the story depicts life with all it's pain, joy, triumph, tragedy, and struggle.  you can hear it very well in the music!  and, at a certain point i heard a bit of saint-saens influence as well.
OK - well, since I know nothing of this material so far, I will take what you sy in good faith (yes, dear susanistimo, I do actually happen top know what "faith" is...).

i really  liked the creativity of this man - and do not usually judge things from a 'strict' baptist convention performance standard when going to public concerts.
Thank God - yes, pianistimo, "God"(!") - for that...

i just liked it.  that's all i can say.  perhaps i was moved by the wrong spirit - but it was effective to moving passion and quite descriptive.  i tend to have an overactive imagination - so perhaps it was not so good for me in the long run.  i wanted to stay and hear it over and over.  i cannot say that for very many 'new compositions' although i hope you hear that from some of those who heard your work.  amazingly this work was much shorter than i was envisioning.  i think 14 minutes total.  but it sounded like at least 20 minutes.  how can that be?  it was gripping.  lots of action.
I can't say about this kind of thing - except, perhaps, that I am always relieved when (as, for example, following Jonathan Powell's recent première of my Sequentia Claviensis) people tell me that they think that what they have been listening to seemed to occupy far less a duration than actually it did in real time - and, by the way, you might (or might not!) like to know that, at the end of the score of that particular work of mine, I wrote "In Nomine Patris, Fi...(even as a Baptist - if that's what you are - you know the rest...)...because that's simply what had to be written at the end of that score. Please do not trouble yourself to ask for any explanation...

Best,

Alistair