Piano Forum

Piano Board => Performance => Topic started by: Derek on May 11, 2007, 01:11:09 AM

Title: 4-5 trills.
Post by: Derek on May 11, 2007, 01:11:09 AM
This is probably the six trillionth time I've brought up this topic. But one of my favorite physical problems that I've been learning how to conquer is the 4-5 trill.  Even when not playing the piano I practice trills with my fingers, on whatever surface is near.   For the longest time it really seemed like the 4-5 trill (particularly in my right hand, I suspect playing the guitar eventually made it easy for my left hand) was unattainable by me.

However in recent months I've noticed it becoming remarkably easier, without tension, to play a 4-5 trill in my right hand.   I think I've figured out why------when you're a beginner at piano, you only think about the "down" muscles in your fingers.     Later, you think, "oh, there are UP muscles too!"  but then that doesn't work because it makes your fingers tense, and you finally realise the motion you want is not just moving up but moving up AND RELAXING AT THE SAME TIME.   I think this is the secret to really fluent physical movement at the piano.  I don't care whether you call it finger strength or arm weight or whatever else,  but that is what is really going on "behind the scenes" in our fingers, I think..  That's just my perception anyway.
Title: Re: 4-5 trills.
Post by: jakev2.0 on May 11, 2007, 02:46:01 AM
When 4-5 trills are called for I instead play 4-N.
Title: Re: 4-5 trills.
Post by: pita bread on May 11, 2007, 08:30:40 AM
Quote from: jakev2.0 on May 11, 2007, 02:46:01 AM
When 4-5 trills are called for I instead play 4-N.

What?
Title: Re: 4-5 trills.
Post by: pseudo.naivete on May 11, 2007, 10:51:58 AM
I think the bottleneck with 4-5 trills is the fact that finger 5 is shorter than the 4th, and they're more or less dependent on each other's position (especially the 4th finger).

What helped for me was to practice tremolos involving 4th and 5th fingers alternating and acquire the speed from the rotating wrist, concentrate on conditioning myself to allow the 5th finger dominate the rhythm and pushing the 4th finger further up the key so that the
wrist is angled [to right] horizontally (so the "distance" both fingers had to "travel" down on each keypress were about equal), and then move towards the 4-5 trill (taking the thumb out but maintaining the wrist movement and trying to progressively compensate it with fingers' motion independently).

Title: Re: 4-5 trills.
Post by: invictious on May 11, 2007, 11:37:59 AM
What I do is I use my forearm.
But it's good do practice 4-5 trills
Title: Re: 4-5 trills.
Post by: jakev2.0 on May 11, 2007, 04:33:04 PM
Quote from: pita bread on May 11, 2007, 08:30:40 AM
What?

"N" stands for "Nose".
Title: Re: 4-5 trills.
Post by: ramseytheii on May 11, 2007, 08:56:55 PM
Bernhard commented that the fourth finger can move much easier if you turn your hand palm-up, and bring it towards you, and that was his approach to playing with the fourth finger.  When the hand is palm down, you shouldn't attempt to lift the fourth finger, but only control the muscles from the palm of the hand that enable it to move down.  The pinky benefits from the well-developed muscle on the end of your hand, and when these two are coordinated, you can trill with 4-5!

Walter Ramsey
Title: Re: 4-5 trills.
Post by: thalberg on May 11, 2007, 09:24:07 PM
Quote from: jakev2.0 on May 11, 2007, 04:33:04 PM
"N" stands for "Nose".

hahaha.....I actually knew that.


Anyway, I've done a 4-5 trill quite reliably in performance.  (goldberg variation 28) It's not a problem.
Your second and fifth fingers are key.  Use an unfolding (pushing) fifth finger (not a pulling 5th finger), and at the same time raise your second finger slightly up and out.  This will raise the 4th finger automatically.  Second finger comes down when the 4th finger plays.

Title: Re: 4-5 trills.
Post by: Derek on May 12, 2007, 01:59:59 PM
Quote from: ramseytheii on May 11, 2007, 08:56:55 PM
Bernhard commented that the fourth finger can move much easier if you turn your hand palm-up, and bring it towards you, and that was his approach to playing with the fourth finger.  When the hand is palm down, you shouldn't attempt to lift the fourth finger, but only control the muscles from the palm of the hand that enable it to move down.  The pinky benefits from the well-developed muscle on the end of your hand, and when these two are coordinated, you can trill with 4-5!

Walter Ramsey


I recall Bernhard's post on this issue, I believe I looked it up when I was first reading about it a couple years ago. That definitely helped in my quest to improve my 45 trill.    Perhaps there is more individuality than we thought between hands of various pianists, because my fourth finger (in both hands) does lift when I do 45 trills. (unless you have all three other fingers down, then its harder to lift the 4th).
Title: Re: 4-5 trills.
Post by: thalberg on May 12, 2007, 10:50:44 PM
I just played my 4-5 trill.....my 2nd finger doesn't move like I thought it did....sorry.  I suppose I don't know how I do it.