Piano Forum
Piano Board => Repertoire => Topic started by: japanesepianist on June 24, 2012, 08:05:45 PM
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I am looking into starting to play ravel's works, however, I am curious as to start with Jeux D'eau, Ondine, Sonatine or Pavane. My past repertoire was: Fantaise Impromptu, WTC I Prelude and Fugue 5 by Bach, Poem Op. 32 No. 2 by Scriabin, Nocturne 72 No. 1 by Chopin, Sonata 8 by Mozart, Inventions 8, 11, and 13 by Bach. Can you guys give me some pointers?
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I wouldn't start with Ondine. The Sonatine is a great entry as if offers three different introductions to his writing. Overall, it is a pretty tough piece (some forum members say it's "easy", but that is entirely relative... they may have played Prokofiev's 2nd concerto, and the Hammerklavier... compared to those, the Sonatine may seem easy). The first movement has a lot of delicate writing, dense textures with pp markings. The second movement has some amazing expressive harmonies; the third movement has some instances of his fast passagework... I think this piece is very worthwhile.
Ondine kind of applies all of these together, but has many AWKWARD passages (if it is your first Ravel piece, even the first 8 bars may take too much time to really get sounding good). There are so many extremely quiet moments, but the amount of leaps for the right hand would seem very tough to execute.
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I agree with nanabush.
the first two movements of Sonatine are relatively accessible to someone with intermediate-ish piano skills. playing them really well is quite a challenge though. the third movement is rather difficult no matter how you look at it. jeux and ondine are both lightyears beyond it and not really the best way of starting on Ravel's works. the Pavanne is a great piece and not terribly technically challenging as far as Ravel goes, but again, it's easy enough to play badly, but difficult to play it well. another choice you didn't mention would be forlane. it would be a good introduction to some of the awkward hand crossings/interlacings that are typical of Ravel.
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In my amateur opinions, I would think the (technical) difficulty of the more popular Ravel's piano solo works is as follows:-
Less difficult
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Pavane pour une infante defunte
A la maiere de Borodine
Antique menuet
Sonatine
Le Tombeau de Couperin
Jeux d'eau
Miroirs
Gaspard de lat Nuit
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Most difficult
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I wouldn't start with Ondine. The Sonatine is a great entry as if offers three different introductions to his writing. Overall, it is a pretty tough piece (some forum members say it's "easy", but that is entirely relative... they may have played Prokofiev's 2nd concerto, and the Hammerklavier... compared to those, the Sonatine may seem easy). The first movement has a lot of delicate writing, dense textures with pp markings. The second movement has some amazing expressive harmonies; the third movement has some instances of his fast passagework... I think this piece is very worthwhile.
I want to start Ravel with Sonatine, just because it is so gorgeous, and I think it might be a good place to start. I want to tackle the movements in order, but should I do it in order?
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If you want to learn it in progressive order, from the easiest to the hardest movement, then the right order is: second, first, third.
Best regards, Dr
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I learned about eighty percent of the first mvt before starting the second. I keep dabbling wit the third intermittently but it's really way too hard for me to spend too much of my time on it. In retrospect, I wish I had done as dr Kilroy suggested. One thing I would recommend though is that you spend a few minutes to master the top voice of the very opening theme of the first mvt. You will find this motif throughout the work and you must have it absolutely perfect for the effect to work. (you can learn the accompanying figures later when you work on the first mvt in earnest)
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wouldn't start with ondine.... sonatine& pavane will be much more managable
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Well, I'm not sure what your technical skill is, but I've only played for five years (started when I was seven - twelve now), and Ondine is not that difficult. Le Gibet is very nice too. Much simpler than Ondine. If you want to play something beautiful, impressive, and a good example of "The Best of Ravel", do Scarbo (third piece in the set [Gaspard de la Nuit])
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Whenever I'm starting off with a new composer, I find it useful to begin with works that are technically amongst their easiest and comfortably within my abilities. They don't take long to get up to some sort of reasonable level, and so I can do a number of them in a resonably short period of time. The reason I do this is that it gives me an insight into the way the composer approaches music, the sorts of sounds, progressions, ideas and emotions they bring out. Odd little quirks they have. That sort of thing. These are readily apparent when you are not bogged down in learning something that is challenging you on other levels as well.
After that, the approach to more difficult works by that composer is much more likely to produce satisfactory results and will ultimately take less time and effort.
The temptation to dive in with the most difficult work one is capable of should be resisted; you'll get there faster and with better results if you start off light.
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Well, I'm not sure what your technical skill is, but I've only played for five years (started when I was seven - twelve now), and Ondine is not that difficult. Le Gibet is very nice too. Much simpler than Ondine. If you want to play something beautiful, impressive, and a good example of "The Best of Ravel", do Scarbo (third piece in the set [Gaspard de la Nuit])
if the above is true, i suggest you find yourself an agent and a record deal instead of wasting time on the internet...
While quite a number of pianists now play the Gaspard de la Nuit set very well, at the time it was written it was widely considered to be the "most difficult piano work composed." Other works have surely surpassed it for difficulty since then, and plenty would argue that there were harder pieces out there at the time of its composition, but the point is that it's really a quite technically challenging work, period. and if you want to experience a composer, why jump in with such a technical beast?
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I really don't think that anyone who has been playing for five years can even begin to express gaspard. I've played gaspard myself, after... 13 years of playing. I used it for my audition for graduate school. Gaspard is one of the most challenging pieces I've played, especially scarbo, and the climax of ondine is very very difficult. If it was as easy for you as you say, then I don't know why you're in here, and not winning van cliburn.
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I started learning Pavene first. I think my next Ravel piece will be Alborado del gracioso.
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Well, I'm not sure what your technical skill is, but I've only played for five years (started when I was seven - twelve now), and Ondine is not that difficult. Le Gibet is very nice too. Much simpler than Ondine. If you want to play something beautiful, impressive, and a good example of "The Best of Ravel", do Scarbo (third piece in the set [Gaspard de la Nuit])
I would like to see that.
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I would like to see that.
Somehow, I doubt that I would.
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;D
Hi, I am absolutely in love with Ondine, and If I were you(soon I too will be working on this piece) why introduce yourself to Ravel through only one piece? What good does it do you and/or your repertoire?
That said, I really enjoyed working on Valse nobles et sentimentales. They make for great Ravel warmups. While you look through those, work on dat Ondine(or any other difficult ravel piece. shoot, why not all three poems?)
Rock n' Roll!
-Julia
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Fantasie-Impromptu level? Start with the Pavane or Sonatine 1st and 2nd movements for sure.
Don't think about tackling the 3rd movement. I'd say it's as hard as Jeux D'eau
Although the difficulty of Jeux D'eau has been somewhat exaggerated, it still is significantly more difficult than Fantasie-Impromptu. I'd wait 2 years before tackling Jeux D'eau or the 3rd movement of the Sonatine
Liszt8 is either a troll or technically very proficient. You don't just play Ondine at age 12 after only 5 years of playing the piano. You play Ondine after 12 years with a good teacher and many hours of practice and at least as a high school senior. And that's pushing it. We have every right to be skeptical but I'm willing to shut up about it if you record yourself and post it ;)
I'd say the order of the pieces you mentioned (plus some other ones)
Sonatine 2nd mvt
Pavane
Sonatine 1st mvt
possibly Oiseaux Tristes from Miroirs
Tombeau de Couperin minus the Toccata
Sonatine 3rd mvt
Jeux D'eau
Rest of Miroirs
the Toccata
Gaspard
I haven't looked at the piano concerti so I'm not sure about those
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While I was at a non-specialist secondary music school, my piano teacher, who was head of music there, tried to get me to learn Balakirev's Islamey and Ravel's Alborada del gracioso. I was a relatively quick note-learner, but had poor technique and was a piano basher. I have always thought my teacher was a bit crazy (not in the literal sense of course).