Piano Forum
Piano Board => Repertoire => Topic started by: thalbergmad on January 22, 2014, 12:07:58 PM
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I have given this some thought, but I need some input from you lot.
What is the most absurd piece of atonal rubbish that has ever been recorded?. I want to put a top ten together.
Please assist with you tube links if possible.
Luv
Thal
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I have given this some thought, but I need some input from you lot.
What is the most absurd piece of atonal rubbish that has ever been recorded?. I want to put a top ten together.
Please assist with you tube links if possible.
That's quite a tough challenge for anyone, I imagine, for several reasons.
Firstly, the piece has to be by a "ridiculous plinker"; as only a few members here if indeed any at all (besides your excellent self, that is) know what a "plinker" is, it would be difficult if not impossible for them to distinguish between one that might be deemed "ridiculous" and one that is not.
Secondly, the piece concerned must qualify as "absurd" which, as degrees and types of absurdity are by definition a matter of personal opinion rather than of scientific fact, risks reducing the likely emergence of a single definitive conclusion, or even a "top ten", as to which might be the "most" absurd.
Thirdly, it has also to be "atonal", which presents another problem as atonality is a matter of degree rather than something entirely specific.
Fourthly, it has to be "rubbish", for which read as for "absurd" above.
Hmmm. Yes, not an easy one, that (unless it happens by some mischance to be that famous "song" known as Sergey Vasilyevich Medtner's Moonfright Symphony, of course)...
The only possibly appropriate tube that occurs to me in this context in one that takes you to Mornington Crescent.
Best,
Alistair
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You are not entering into the spirit of this and you are supposed to post a youtube link.
You must know loads of plinkers and I was counting on you to nominate something really daft. Perhaps even the elusive P10.
Thal
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Vladimir Plinkovsky - Grand Plinkathon dramatique pour piano.
Schumann - Piano Concerto
and for sheer inappropriateness of the title,
Hommage à Georges Cziffra" by Régis Campo
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Well done old chap. These will be taken into consideration.
Luv
Thal
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taking the 'three-handed effect' into modern times:-D
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You are not entering into the spirit of this
Well, I'm doing my best!...
and you are supposed to post a youtube link.
Not if I don't have one - and, after all, from what I wrote in my previous post in this thread, it's pretty obvious that I wouldn't have one, surely?!...
You must know loads of plinkers
Is that an order or a stement of misplaced faith? If I do not know what a "plinker" is (and I have repeated asked you for a definition of this obscure technical term, since I have yet to encounter it in any reputable music lexicon, but you have yet to complay with my request), then how could I be certain of actually knwoing any?
and I was counting on you to nominate something really daft.
Well, keep counting! - but sorry to have let you down on this occasion!
Perhaps even the elusive P10.
Quoi?...
Best,
Alistair
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Vladimir Plinkovsky - Grand Plinkathon dramatique pour piano.
Never heard of the composer of the work; Thal specified recorded works, so even if you don't have a YouTube link to it, do you at least have details of such a recording? (label, catalogue number, artist/s, &c.)...
Schumann - Piano Concerto
Memory loss often afflicts people as they get older, but I could have sworn that, last time I looked, this work was in A minor.
and for sheer inappropriateness of the title,
Hommage à Georges Cziffra" by Régis Campo
Not much of a piece, I grant you, but the numerous tonal references within its rather substanceless nine or so minutes suggests that it disqualifies itself as anything remotely "atonal" so is undeserving of a place of the Thal Top Ten list...
Best,
Alistair
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Never heard of the composer of the work; Thal specified recorded works, so even if you don;t have a YouTube link to it, do you at least have details of such a recording? (label, catalogue number, artist/s, &c.)...
I can do better than that. The score is available in limited numbers from the Plinkovsky Archive, cost £2500. I agree that the last piece I cited is probably not fully atonal; however it is undoubtedly a plinker.
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What about this Bollox??
This is the kind of aimless nonsense that I am after.
Thal
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I can do better than that. The score is available in limited numbers from the Plinkovsky Archive, cost £2500.
I am greatly obliged to you for providing this information to me and will be even more appreciative if you could also confirm contact details for this organisation so that I might have a look and then consider pursuing any enquiries that might seem appropriate. I have to say that the price sounds incredibly hefty, though; unless it is a work of utterly monstrous proportions, it would seem to make even the most outrageously expensive items from the Stockhausen-Verlag seem quite reasonably priced! Do you have a copy yourself?
I agree that the last piece I cited is probably not fully atonal; however it is undoubtedly a plinker.
But surely the same applies, to a considerably greater degree, to the Schumann Concerto, wouldn't you say? That said, I am delighted to learn that at least someone besides the supreme leader of the Thaleban himself knows what a "plinker" is, although I am now confused because I'd gleaned the impression from him that a "plinker" is a certain as yet unidentified category of composer, whereas you appear to use the term as though it applies not to composers but to pieces of music. Any elucidation here would be most welcome, for which many thanks in advance.
Best,
Alistair
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What about this Bollox??
This is the kind of aimless nonsense that I am after.
I see that you are addressing forum member Bollox here, so do ot wish to intrude uninvited but, whilst I cannot agree with your description of the work, it's good to see that you are in any case after it! Out of interest, whose performance of it is this? I well recall listening to its UK première years ago. I'm not so sure that it fits too comfortably into your "atonal" category, though; isn't rather too much of it suggestive of being in B flat for that?
Best,
Alistair
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I misread the title as Most Ridiculous Stinker, in which case I was going to mention the Schumann concerto (it seems I was beat to it still).
In light of the actual request, this perhaps?
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In light of the actual request, this perhaps?
A most beautiful work from one of the finest composers of the early part of the last century, but one containing far too many tonal references to qualify as "atonal", so I don't think it would stand a chance of a place on the Thal list, really. But your posting of it and my reacquaintance with its opening embarrasses me, as I've only now realised for the first time how similar that opening piano figure is to the first notes of the subject in the Passacaglia which forms the fifth movement of my own six-movement piano work Sequentia Claviensis (premièred some yearsa ago by Jonathan Powell); I would like to tender the old chestnut about great minds thinking alike as an excuse, but I suspect that I would no more get away with that than I'd have any right to, frankly! I can only claim in my defence that this never occurred to me at the time of writing...
Best,
Alistair
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I am greatly obliged to you for providing this information to me and will be even more appreciative if you could also confirm contact details for this organisation so that I might have a look and then consider pursuing any enquiries that might seem appropriate. I have to say that the price sounds incredibly hefty, though; unless it is a work of utterly monstrous proportions, it would seem to make even the most outrageously expensive items from the Stockhausen-Verlag seem quite reasonably priced! Do you have a copy yourself?
I will notify the Plinkovsky Archive of your interest. It is truly a magnum opus; I do not have the full score but suffice it to say I am informed that it makes Satie's Vexations look like the Minute Waltz. Work is ongoing to provide a more concise edition which still fully represents in comprehensible form the complex, both algorithmic and aleatory, nature of the work.
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Well stuff my old boots. Hinty has sneaked in a Powell reference.
Thal
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A most beautiful work from one of the finest composers of the early part of the last century, but one containing far too many tonal references to qualify as "atonal", so I don't think it would stand a chance of a place on the Thal list, really. But your posting of it and my reacquaintance with its opening embarrasses me, as I've only now realised for the first time how similar that opening piano figure is to the first notes of the subject in the Passacaglia which forms the fifth movement of my own six-movement piano work Sequentia Claviensis (premièred some yearsa ago by Jonathan Powell); I would like to tender the old chestnut about great minds thinking alike as an excuse, but I suspect that I would no more get away with that than I'd have any right to, frankly! I can only claim in my defence that this never occurred to me at the time of writing...
Best,
Alistair
Fair enough me supposes. And no offense to the work, or fans or it, or composers influenced by it (in fact, how does the saying go, the good composers borrow, the great ones steal? ha ha, just kidding Mr. Alistair! :P ).
does this plink enough?
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I will notify the Plinkovsky Archive of your interest.
That's most kind of you, but can you not merely put me in touch with them directly? They're not going to disseminate much of the composer's work if they're overly secretive!
It is truly a magnum opus; I do not have the full score but suffice it to say I am informed that it makes Satie's Vexations look like the Minute Waltz.
Well, it might be useful to make them lkook at least like something, I suppose, but how it could be made to loook like Chopin's Op. 64 No. 1 is, I confess, quite beyond me, so I'll have to make a point of looking out for it (or at least a brief extract therefrom) as the signature tune for the next series of BBC Radio 4's panel game Just a Minute.
Work is ongoing to provide a more concise edition
Who's doing that?
which still fully represents in comprehensible form the complex, both algorithmic and aleatory, nature of the work.
If it's nature is part algorithmic and part aleatory it's hard to figure out how it could be made to look like either a Vexed Satie or a Minuted Chopin, howewver brilliantly gifted the editor might be...
Best,
Alistair
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Well stuff my old boots.
With what? I can't anyway, as I do not have them. But what would you have preferred me to do - tell a barefaced lie and state that the work had been premièred by Martha Argerich?
Best,
Alistair
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Without a doubt, it has to be John Cage. I've had the misfortune of listening to the four books of the Etudes Australes and of having three kidney stones, and I'd prefer the kidney stones any day.
John Cage fell out of the womb for the sole purpose of torturting, defiling, and mutilating many a piano, and he did so with gusto.
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More like a Flinker I guess...
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An ironic thing to note would be that the single MIDI I have of Plinkovsky is not nearly as plinky as one would expect.
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Fair enough me supposes. And no offense to the work, or fans or it, or composers influenced by it (in fact, how does the saying go, the good composers borrow, the great ones steal? ha ha, just kidding Mr. Alistair! :P ).
does this plink enough?
Yes, this is the kind of rubbish I am after. Well done.
Thal
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More like a Flinker I guess...
Brilliant, what utter garbage this is.
Thal
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t=35[/youtube]
Here is another monumental pile of refuse.
This is what I am after. Something so spasticated and devoid of humanity that it could could have been composed by a starfish.
Thal
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taking the 'three-handed effect' into modern times:-D
Oh my God, that is absolutely incredible and extremely funny. How moronic that he has actually got a score in front of him as if this random dishrag could be written down.
That said, one must compliment him on the flexibility of his 4th toe.
Thal
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I am huge fan of Claude Debussy but this one I've never cared for very much, it doesn't go any where. (just my opinion)
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I am huge fan of Claude Debussy but this one I've never cared for very much, it doesn't go any where. (just my opinion)
Indeed, it does not.
Thal
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I am huge fan of Claude Debussy but this one I've never cared for very much, it doesn't go any where. (just my opinion)
Well, if lack of direction indicates plinky, there are quite a few composers who perfected plinky. *coughAlkancough*
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Lack of direction does go towards a P rating, but the work MUST be atonal.
Thal
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Lack of direction does go towards a P rating, but the work MUST be atonal.
Thal
Define atonal.
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More like a Flinker I guess...
I thought my computer had broken at first. Tremendous.
taking the 'three-handed effect' into modern times:-D
Oh my God, that is absolutely incredible and extremely funny. How moronic that he has actually got a score in front of him as if this random dishrag could be written down.
That said, one must compliment him on the flexibility of his 4th toe.
From the same composer and pianist, you may also appreciate this offering:
A particularly fine moment occurs shortly after 5 mins in.
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Yes, this is the kind of rubbish I am after. Well done.
Thal
And this would make a good encore. It is misnamed. A few choice words come to mind, but love and Bach are not them.
My ears are bleeding.
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taking the 'three-handed effect' into modern times:-D
I think the only incredible thing about that video is that people *** CLAPPED??? How is that possible???
That had to be the most awful, vomit-inducing, ear-bleeding, sanctimoniously performed, piece of sh!t I have EVER HEARD!!!
How moronic that he has actually got a score in front of him as if this random dishrag could be written down.
Actually - someone was nice enough to give me the sheet music for it. You can have it if you want. ;D
(https://s27.postimg.org/elxwr76w3/Publication1.jpg) (https://s27.postimg.org/rtxak54f7/Publication2.jpg) (https://s27.postimg.org/kpfhb3x5v/Publication3.jpg) (https://s27.postimg.org/5ffm3x1nn/Publication4.jpg)
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Try this one! Pianists have been know to break their hands on this piece, but besides it's difficulty (which I respect greatly) this piece has the direction of mad man. That's Russians for you though. ;D
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My vote would have to go to Cage's Etudes Australes (and probably to his related works Atlas Elipticalis, Song Books and Etudes Boreales, though I manage still to resist the temptation to check by listening to them).
(Number32 of the 32 of them). There are apparently 4 full recording of the set.
From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etudes_Australes) (edited)
The pieces are built on two basic ideas. Cage made a catalogue of what triads, quatrads (four-note aggregates) and quintads (five-note aggregates) could be played by a single hand without the other assisting it; overall some 550 four- and five-note chords were available for each hand. The second idea was to use star charts as source material.
The process of composition ran as follows. First, Cage put a transparent strip of about three-quarter inch over the maps. The width of the strip limited the number of stars used. Within this width Cage was able to discern the twelve tones of the octave. Then through chance operations using the I Ching, he transferred these tones to the available octaves for the left and right hands. The resulting notes reflect only the horizontal positions of the stars, and not all stars are used, because the maps used a variety of colors, and Cage's chance operations limited the choices every time to specific colors. In the end Cage would have a string of notes and ask the I Ching which of them are to remain single tones and which are to become parts of aggregates. In the first etude this question is answered by a single number, in the second by two numbers, etc. So as the etudes progress, there are more and more aggregates: in the first, most sounds are single tones, in the final, thirty-second etude, roughly half of the sounds are aggregates. The aggregates themselves were selected from the list of available aggregates, described above.
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If this isn't total chaos, then i don't know what is...
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Try this one! Pianists have been know to break their hands on this piece, but besides it's difficulty (which I respect greatly) this piece has the direction of mad man. That's Russians for you though. ;D
WHAT??? I have never heard of a piece being so difficult or technically frustrating that people have BROKEN THEIR HANDS??? Is this true??? Can anyone verify this?
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scriabin...
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WHAT??? I have never heard of a piece being so difficult or technically frustrating that people have BROKEN THEIR HANDS??? Is this true??? Can anyone verify this?
I have a piece where the score requires you to slam the fallboard down hard at a particular point. I see a potential hazard.
(I also don't know how that works if you've got one of those soft-close numbers)
I always skip that bit. My piano has enough against me already.
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And this would make a good encore. It is misnamed. A few choice words come to mind, but love and Bach are not them.
My ears are bleeding.
Is that high note in measure 11 (0:21) supposed to be from the Violin??
In general though, I think I'd rather listen to plinkers than Bach judging from this thread :P
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Is that high note in measure 11 (0:21) supposed to be from the Violin??
In general though, I think I'd rather listen to plinkers than Bach judging from this thread :P
Q1 - Yes.
You'll be pleased to know, then, that this guy has a lot of his compositions on YT (https://www.youtube.com/user/pseudotonal/videos). You'll be disappointed that his hour+ long piano sonata "Euvangelion" is not among them.
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Q1 - Yes.
Then why not make it sound like it? Too high?
You'll be pleased to know, then, that this guy has a lot of his compositions on YT (https://www.youtube.com/user/pseudotonal/videos). You'll be disappointed that his hour+ long piano sonata "Euvangelion" is not among them.
I didn't really refer to this last one, but there are some other pieces listed above that I do like...
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Q1 - Yes.
You'll be pleased to know, then, that this guy has a lot of his compositions on YT (https://www.youtube.com/user/pseudotonal/videos). You'll be disappointed that his hour+ long piano sonata "Euvangelion" is not among them.
I must admit, I actually was a fan of the Piano Song and Metamorphosis.
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I think the only incredible thing about that video is that people *** CLAPPED??? How is that possible???
That had to be the most awful, vomit-inducing, ear-bleeding, sanctimoniously performed, piece of sh!t I have EVER HEARD!!!
Actually - someone was nice enough to give me the sheet music for it. You can have it if you want. ;D
(https://s27.postimg.org/elxwr76w3/Publication1.jpg) (https://s27.postimg.org/rtxak54f7/Publication2.jpg) (https://s27.postimg.org/kpfhb3x5v/Publication3.jpg) (https://s27.postimg.org/5ffm3x1nn/Publication4.jpg)
Brilliant. Laughed my tits off.
This is excellent work chaps. We have the makings of a top ten of worthless crap.
Thal
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Brilliant. Laughed my tits off.
This is excellent work chaps. We have the makings of a top ten of worthless crap.
I'm uncertain of either your motivation and your intended goal in encouraging this exercise, but that's up to you, I guess. All that I can really do at this point is be thankful that the thread has gotten this far and my name has yet to be mentioned; perhaps that may be because, for one reason or another, I fail to qualify as a "plinker" but, as I still do not know what a "plinker" is, I cannot be sure about that, so maybe it's because I've not written anything atonal (or, more accurately, I've not kept anything that is).
You didn't answer my question upthread about Martha Argerich, by the way. You don't have to, of course, but I'd be curious as to what it is nevertheless.
Best,
Alistair
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There have been some excellent contributions to this thread, but you have yet to make one.
I am dismayed as I expect you probably know more plinkers than anyone else.
Thal
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Brilliant. Laughed my tits off.
This is excellent work chaps. We have the makings of a top ten of worthless crap.
Glad you like it. I'm kind of proud of that one. ;D
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There have been some excellent contributions to this thread, but you have yet to make one.
I am dismayed
Sorry to dismay you, Thal, old chap, but I did give detailed reasons about the complexities of the exercise in post #2 which ought of themselves to indicate why furfther contributions to this thread in terms of what you are seeking from it are something that's pretty much outside my scope, not least as a consequence of my lack of understanding of the term "plinker".
as I expect you probably know more plinkers than anyone else.
Why so? - especially as I'd be unble to recognise any of them as such...
Best,
Alistair
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Alistair, as you are keen for information on the reclusive Plinkovsky, perhaps you might be interested in this documentary on his teacher, Artur Mistek. ;D
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No - far too many octaves and common triads; it just won't do! Sorry.
Alistair, as you are keen for information on the reclusive Plinkovsky, perhaps you might be interested in this documentary on his teacher, Artur Mistek. ;D
Thank you for this. I tried - I really did - to avoid typing in my response "shome mis(h)tek, surely?" but, as you will see, ultimately failed. I didn't hear this when it was originally broadcast, but the moment I heard mention of the name Eleanor Bron before it even began, the game had already been given away as a sort of "(grand)son of Piotr Zak". Ah, well.
That said, I'm confused about which Plinkovsky is which; Thal - surely the ultimate authority in such matters - has mentioned at various times both Alexander and Vladimir of that ilk...
Best,
Alisztair
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For the record, Vladimir Plinkovsky changed his name to Alexander in honour of his Scottish ancestors.
Thal
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For the record, Vladimir Plinkovsky changed his name to Alexander in honour of his Scottish ancestors.
Ah - thank you; I'd not realised that he's one and the same person, nor indeed that he had/has Scottish ancestors.
Best,
Alistair
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My vote would have to go to Cage's Etudes Australes
Brilliant. I have listened to these today at work. It was amusing looking at the bemused look on peoples faces.
Thal
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I'm not sure whether she is mad or a genius:
If it has lots of flats is it (not) atonal?...
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I'm not sure whether she is mad or a genius:
If you keep listening to her, you may well find yourself leaning heavily towards the latter. That was my experience - and I started with much the same question.
Lots of flats do not preclude atonality. I note kakethewolf asked earlier what atonality actually was, and no-one has dared an answer yet.
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I'm not sure whether she is mad or a genius:
If it has lots of flats is it (not) atonal?...
Quite possibly the worst thing I have ever heard with the exception of the other video of the guy playing with his foot.
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Though this isn't good, I do see what the person was aiming for with this, and it's somewhat interesting as a concept.
If you keep listening to her, you may well find yourself leaning heavily towards the latter. That was my experience - and I started with much the same question.
Lots of flats do not preclude atonality. I note kakethewolf asked earlier what atonality actually was, and no-one has dared an answer yet.
That's because no one can Handel the truth.
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That's because no one can Handel the truth.
Ignoring the pun (because I am beset by a rare fit of niceness :P ), I suspect it is because many simply don't know, and those that do know how contentious and fraught the term is.
Schoenberg, who most would regard as an exemplary example of an atonal composer, and who many would blame for the whole thing, rejected the term entirely as wrong headed.
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Ignoring the pun (because I am beset by a rare fit of niceness :P ), I suspect it is because many simply don't know, and those that do know how contentious and fraught the term is.
Schoenberg, who most would regard as an exemplary example of an atonal composer, and who many would blame for the whole thing, rejected the term entirely as wrong headed.
Well, you must also consider that true atonality doesn't really exist.
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Well, you must also consider that true atonality doesn't really exist.
Perhaps, but Plinkism does.
Thal
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Concerning atonality, would I be wrong to suggest that it would be easier to write a truly atonal piece for a single "melodic" line? It seems to me that the interaction of multiple strands would imply harmonies, even against the composer's wishes: Thirds, fifths, and other "pregnant" intervals. I suppose one could try to confine oneself to seconds, ninths, etc. That might work.
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For Thal, not that he will thank me:
from 8.08
The ridiculous unintentional plinker.
For comedy value, though clearly not atonal, and I didn't make it all the way to the end:
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A new talent on the scene:
I enjoyed it more than the Ustvolskaya
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Concerning atonality, would I be wrong to suggest that it would be easier to write a truly atonal piece for a single "melodic" line? It seems to me that the interaction of multiple strands would imply harmonies, even against the composer's wishes: Thirds, fifths, and other "pregnant" intervals. I suppose one could try to confine oneself to seconds, ninths, etc. That might work.
Another approach is to write in many key signatures, but have none be consistently showing up. I took this route once when writing an etude, using 42 key signatures in about 6 minutes.