Piano Forum
Piano Board => Repertoire => Topic started by: Ludwig Van Rachabji on November 23, 2004, 09:16:04 PM
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Hi everyone,
I just was wondering, what's your favorite movement of the Opus Clavicembalisticum? Mine would be "Fuga Tertia Triplex". I think the whole idea of an atonal fugue is quite interesting, though strange, to say the least.
- Ludwig Van Rachabji
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The Fantasia, Fuga Tertia Triplex: Dux Primus, and the Coda-Stretta.
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The Fantasia, Fuga Tertia Triplex: Dux Primus, and the Coda-Stretta.
I agree. I really enjoy the Fantasia, as well as the Fuga Tertia Triplex.
- Ludwig Van Rachabji
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I think the Introduction is very interestingly done. However, I have not listened to the whole work...
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I hate to be too negative, but the end. ;)
Actually, I'm being serious. I find the ending few minutes quite spectacular.
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I just was wondering, what's your favorite movement of the Opus Clavicembalisticum?
When it's finally over, and I can go to bed ;D
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I just was wondering, what's your favorite movement of the Opus Clavicembalisticum?
The best part of it is the wonderful silence that envelopes the listener after 4+ hours of cacophonous torture.
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I wonder why people hate this piece so much...... It isn't really that bad.
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Well, you need a certain way of listening to it. I think lots of people could like it, but you just have to get used to the style by listening to the pieces a couple of times. And that takes quite a while with Sorabji, especially with the Opus Clavicembalisticum. So, I suggest that people that have never heard any Sorabji start listening to his shorter works, like the Fantaisie Espagnole, "Quære reliqua hujus materiei inter secretiora" (great work!), "Prelude, Interlude and Fugue" or perhaps the first or second piano sonata.
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The silence between movements. And the Introduction. The whole opus, really...
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Well, you need a certain way of listening to it. I think lots of people could like it, but you just have to get used to the style by listening to the pieces a couple of times. And that takes quite a while with Sorabji, especially with the Opus Clavicembalisticum. So, I suggest that people that have never heard any Sorabji start listening to his shorter works, like the Fantaisie Espagnole, "Quære reliqua hujus materiei inter secretiora" (great work!), "Prelude, Interlude and Fugue" or perhaps the first or second piano sonata.
Read this, everyone! Maybe this will help you discover that Sorabji is not "crap". In fact, you might end up liking him.
Trust me, it took ME awhile too before it sunk in and I started to appreciate his music.
- Ludwig Van Rachabji
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i have the madge recordin and it soudns like a pile of crap
i have other recordings of other sorabji pieces and i like, and even love some of them
so my assesment - madge is crap
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https://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/reviews/story/0,11712,1044257,00.html
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https://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/reviews/story/0,11712,1044257,00.html
This is one man's opinion. I agree that it is strange that any pianist would want to learn this. Even if I'm ever good enough to play it, I probably never will. Why bother learning something this long and hard?
However, I enjoy listening to a lot of it. And if Jonathan Powell played it, I can't imagine why this guy didn't like it.
- Ludwig Van Rachabji
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https://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/reviews/story/0,11712,1044257,00.html
Well, that man is obviously an idiot.
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*shrugs*
I'm not a fan of the OC. I pretty much agree with the review posted above. Why play or even listen to this stuff when there is a whole other world of more accessible music out there?
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*shrugs*
I'm not a fan of the OC. I pretty much agree with the review posted above. Why play or even listen to this stuff when there is a whole other world of more accessible music out there?
Pssst, be quiet! Darkwind will come around in a moment and call your opinion "utter bullshit" and will tell you that you are an "incredibly ignorant person", "like one of those no-good critics", who should "sit down for a few hours each day and come up with a 4 hour long piece". Then, he will let you know that "there are actually people who like this kind of music, in case you didn't know". And then there will be others who will be "sick of you".
Hopefully, Darkwind won't see your post...
You have been warned!
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any1 know where i can buy the sheet music?
and a good recording to buy?
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*shrugs*
I'm not a fan of the OC. I pretty much agree with the review posted above. Why play or even listen to this stuff when there is a whole other world of more accessible music out there?
Pssst, be quiet! Darkwind will come around in a moment and call your opinion "utter bullshit" and will tell you that you are an "incredibly ignorant person", "like one of those no-good critics", who should "sit down for a few hours each day and come up with a 4 hour long piece". Then, he will let you know that "there are actually people who like this kind of music, in case you didn't know". And then there will be others who will be "sick of you".
Hopefully, Darkwind won't see your post...
You have been warned!
;D
Notice I didn't call the OC crap. I stated I would rather listen to and play something more accessible. ;)
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any1 know where i can buy the sheet music?
and a good recording to buy?
See what Jonathan Powell has to say:
I must stress that I would advise no-one to judge the merits (whatever they may be ...) of the piece on the strength of the two available recordings, simply because they are both hugely inaccurate. I strove to learn all the notes, and in my humble opinion, the piece doesn't sound random and ridiculous (which it does on those recordings) when played pretty accurately and with decent phrasing, pedalling, sense of proportion etc.
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*shrugs*
I'm not a fan of the OC. I pretty much agree with the review posted above. Why play or even listen to this stuff when there is a whole other world of more accessible music out there?
Notice I didn't call the OC crap. I stated I would rather listen to and play something more accessible. ;)
No, no, you said you agree with that review, which pretty much says the OC is crap (with more words). You are guilty by association. The mere fact that we are having this conversation is probably reason enough for both of us to get incarcerated, tortured and to suffer a horrible death at the hands of the OC Secret Police.
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*shrugs*
I'm not a fan of the OC. I pretty much agree with the review posted above. Why play or even listen to this stuff when there is a whole other world of more accessible music out there?
Pssst, be quiet! Darkwind will come around in a moment and call your opinion "utter bullshit" and will tell you that you are an "incredibly ignorant person", "like one of those no-good critics", who should "sit down for a few hours each day and come up with a 4 hour long piece". Then, he will let you know that "there are actually people who like this kind of music, in case you didn't know". And then there will be others who will be "sick of you".
Hopefully, Darkwind won't see your post...
You have been warned!
No, no, you said you agree with that review, which pretty much says the OC is crap (with more words). You are guilty by association. The mere fact that we are having this conversation is probably reason enough for both of us to get incarcerated, tortured and to suffer a horrible death at the hands of the OC Secret Police.
Poor Darkwind takes so much abuse... You mention me in your post too! I feel so honored... ;)
- Ludwig Van Rachabji
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*shrugs*
I'm not a fan of the OC. I pretty much agree with the review posted above. Why play or even listen to this stuff when there is a whole other world of more accessible music out there?
Pssst, be quiet! Darkwind will come around in a moment and call your opinion "utter bullshit" and will tell you that you are an "incredibly ignorant person", "like one of those no-good critics", who should "sit down for a few hours each day and come up with a 4 hour long piece". Then, he will let you know that "there are actually people who like this kind of music, in case you didn't know". And then there will be others who will be "sick of you".
Hopefully, Darkwind won't see your post...
You have been warned!
Oh please, what a cheap shot...
You may dislike a piece, even hate it. That's your opinion, I don't care. But, when you start calling the piece a useless trifle, a piece that has no musical merit, then that's when you should really rethink your speaking. You have no authority on making such a comment over a piece someone has toiled over for so long. Sorabji made around 4 versions of the piece, always heavily editing. To just demeanor its worth is ignorance. You can call it names if you want, make fun of it, draw little pictures of Sorabji throwing ink on a paper with the caption "Hey look, I'm writing the OC!" and thats all ok since its your opinion. But theres a fine line between opinion and attempting to call the piece useless or anything along those lines.
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What a pointless argument this is. Really xvimbi, nobody is forcing you to like the OC. Seriously, all I had to say was "I am sick of people trashing the OC", and you continue to hold that against me. Why? Why do you accuse me of "yelling" at people?
This has turned into something much more than it needs to be. Why is everybody so stubborn (including me)?
- Ludwig Van Rachabji
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What a pointless argument this is. Really xvimbi, nobody is forcing you to like the OC. Seriously, all I had to say was "I am sick of people trashing the OC", and you continue to hold that against me. Why? Why do you accuse me of "yelling" at people?
This has turned into something much more than it needs to be. Why is everybody so stubborn (including me)?
It has to do with simple courtesy and etiquette. There is no problem with disagreeing on opinions, but when people start name-calling games, then it becomes quite a personal matter, particularly when the presented arguments are less than weak. I include the expression "being sick of people who..." in the category name-calling. You and Darkwind went over the line, at least in my opinion. I'll leave it at that.
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To think that those nine words would turn into such a huge thing.
It was your post combined with Darkwind's post that you agreed with, as you may recall. You were therefore "guilty by association". I had the urge to let you young wippersnappers know that this was rude, and that's all.
None of my students would ever dare to talk to me like that, not to my face! The Internet is a very convenient way for people to behave however they want, and many take advantage of that.
I do not have to swallow everything that get's thrown at me; I do not take words lightly. I am too old and settled in my ways to get down to that niveau, and I get an allergic reaction when treated like that.
It's as simple as that!
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To think that those nine words would turn into such a huge thing.
It was your post combined with Darkwind's post that you agreed with, as you may recall. You were therefore "guilty by association". I had the urge to let you young wippersnappers know that this was rude, and that's all.
None of my students would ever dare to talk to me like that, not to my face! The Internet is a very convenient way for people to behave however they want, and many take advantage of that.
I do not have to swallow everything that get's thrown at me; I do not take words lightly. I am too old and settled in my ways to get down to that niveau, and I get an allergic reaction when treated like that.
It's as simple as that!
First of all, it was not rude because it wasn't meant to be. That post was not aimed toward you directly, so I do not understand where you are coming from with all of this about "how the internet is a way for people to behave however they want".
And I am not allowed to agree with DarkWind? It is considered rude to be in disagreement with one person and agreement with another? What is this nonsense? And what about how your students would never talk to you the way we did? So they aren't allowed to disagree with you? Do you think you are God?! Let me tell you, if I was talking to you face to face, I wouldn't have said a word differently.
No, you do not have to "swallow everything that's thrown at you" but nothing was "thrown at you"! Where do you get this from?
And what do you mean by "young whippersnappers". Exactly how old are you? By that statement, I assume you are atleast 60, or else that statement is quite ridiculous.
Let's end this. I think you have taken this to the extreme, which is something that you would see more often out of an adolescent boy.
- Ludwig Van Rachabji
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And I am not allowed to agree with DarkWind? It is considered rude to be in disagreement with one person and agreement with another? What is this nonsense? And what about how your students would never talk to you the way we did? So they aren't allowed to disagree with you? Do you think you are God?! Let me tell you, if I was talking to you face to face, I wouldn't have said a word differently.
I would really like to end this, but you don't seem to realize what it is that I am upset about. Anybody has the right to disagree with anybody on matters of opinion. That is not the point. I am referring to the WAY one leads a discussion about opinions, and you are well aware of that. I do get angry at those who resort to name-calling and those who agree with this type of behavior. Why is this so difficult to understand and accept?
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And I am not allowed to agree with DarkWind? It is considered rude to be in disagreement with one person and agreement with another? What is this nonsense? And what about how your students would never talk to you the way we did? So they aren't allowed to disagree with you? Do you think you are God?! Let me tell you, if I was talking to you face to face, I wouldn't have said a word differently.
I would really like to end this, but you don't seem to realize what it is that I am upset about. Anybody has the right to disagree with anybody on matters of opinion. That is not the point. I am referring to the WAY one leads a discussion about opinions, and you are well aware of that. I do get angry at those who resort to name-calling and those who agree with this type of behavior. Why is this so difficult to understand and accept?
All right. I fully understand what you mean now. I hope that Darkwind agrees to have this settled. I'm sorry if I have offended you.
- Ludwig Van Rachabji
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Meh. I was just saying the things you said about the Opus Clavicembalisticum were just really demeanoring. Let me make an analogy. Say you didn't like the Catholic religion. Here are two different things you might say. "I don't like the Catholic religion, it's pretty annoying how some of the people act." Then there is, "The Catholic religion is pointless and stupid. Why would anyone follow it? It seems like a waste of time, whole people devoting their lives to nothing, since God doesn't exist and Jesus was most likely some sort of magician." See the difference? One demeanors the people who are involved in it, while the other one just dislikes it. If I were to say the latter remark to a Catholic, I'm sure they might possibly punch me, or at least, want to do something harmful to me. While if I say the first thing to someone, that's ok, it's just simply an opinion. Your comments on the Opus Clavicembalisticum, xvimbi, fall into the latter category. I just don't like how you basically insult Sorabji as a person and all the people who have spent hours studying the piece. I might try to make you want you to like, but I don't really care if you don't. But when you go so far as to outright insult a person's work, it just really pisses me off. I just hope that you at least acknowledge these words, and take them into some consideration. However, if you did not intend your comments to fall into the second category, then I send my deepest apologies and hope you will accept them.
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Are you sure about that?
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What a useful and well thought out reply! I can see you thought deeply on writing this comment. I'm sure you'll do well here.
... All joking and poking fun aside (:P), what exactly are you trying to say?
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What a useful and well thought out reply! I can see you thought deeply on writing this comment. I'm sure you'll do well here.
Hehe...
- Ludwig Van Rachabji
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What a useful and well thought out reply! I can see you thought deeply on writing this comment. I'm sure you'll do well here.
Hehe...
- Ludwig Van Rachabji
:) ;)
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What a useful and well thought out reply! I can see you thought deeply on writing this comment. I'm sure you'll do well here.
... All joking and poking fun aside (:P), what exactly are you trying to say?
I just find the hassle around a silly misunderstanding quite funny.
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All the movements are equally powerful and equally well written and deserve a much praise.
—Ryan
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There are very few movements of this piece that I don't find absolutely incredible. My favorites would probably be the two variation movements.
Oh, and to the original author of this thread - the OC is hardly atonal. Yes, it does use quite a bit of polytonality and "dissonances," but atonal? I think not.
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LOL, Omg, I can't wait to see this forum in the morning!
Ryguillian is now a Sorabji Fanatic or something!? ;)
To answer this really old question though (can't beleived I missed a Sorabji Thread!?) I would say the Fantasia, but the Nexus Corale comes close, then one of the Fugues in the Quadruplex (can't remember which off hand) ^_^;;
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All the movements are equally powerful and equally well written and deserve a much praise.
—Ryan
You are getting absolutely ridculous. Quit behaving like a angry 8 year old. I mean really, grow up.
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Oh, and to the original author of this thread - the OC is hardly atonal. Yes, it does use quite a bit of polytonality and "dissonances," but atonal? I think not.
;D
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You are getting absolutely ridculous. Quit behaving like a angry 8 year old. I mean really, grow up.
Please don't think that I seek to undermine what you write here, but I cannot help but notice that you use the name "lisztisforkids" and, were that actually true, some of the attitudinisings of the person whom you upbraid here might be seen by some as suggestive that sorabjiisforbabies...
Of course I am not, however, seriously suggesting that this is really the case.
As to the writer being complained at here, may I gently urge the complainant that, sadly, neither the said writer nor anyone else so afflicted can be made to metamorphose from an "angry 8 year old" into an intelligent and thoughtful adult in the time that it takes to read the above advice that he does so...
Best,
Alistair
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the last chord, after the whole piece, is just awesome... the way the sound just dies away... armageddon in a piece of music... i love it....
my favourite movement is the tocatta...
Tom
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any1 know where i can buy the sheet music?
and a good recording to buy?
I didn't see an answer to your first question. You get it from Alistair at the Sorabji Archive.
https://www.music.mcgill.ca/~sorabji/sor_scre.html#pno
It sounds expensive, but copyright rules and this is the way to get it. I have suggested that OC should be made available more cheaply for dissemination purposes, but there are solid arguments for its current pricing and it is not up to me. Cheers!!!! 8)
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I didn't see an answer to your first question. You get it from Alistair at the Sorabji Archive.
https://www.music.mcgill.ca/~sorabji/sor_scre.html#pno
It sounds expensive, but copyright rules and this is the way to get it. I have suggested that OC should be made available more cheaply for dissemination purposes, but there are solid arguments for its current pricing and it is not up to me. Cheers!!!! 8)
The website is currently being redesigned and its URL will be
www.sorabji-archive.co.uk
It is not possible to purchase direct from the website in any case, but orders for any of Sorabji's material may be placed by email at
sorabji-archive@lineone.net
We will send catalogues by email to anyone who writes to that address and requests them.
We would add that the price of OC (and all the other material that we supply) is governed not only by copyright but also by the practical matters of actual production costs and shipping charges; it may be worth bearing in mind that the first of these is vastly greater in UK than it is, say, in US or Canada. In determining our prices, we have also had to factor in our initial setup costs. Just for the record (and we apologise to anyone that already knows this), we receive no public or private subsidy and do not enjoy charitable status - so it's all down to us, really. This is not a whinge! - merely an explanation to anyone who might wonder how we go about certain things.
For anyone who wants to know, OC itself comes as an A3 landscape format score containing 260 pages, ring-bound in hard card covers - so it's not exactly small!
Best,
Alistair
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The website is currently being redesigned and its URL will be www.sorabji-archive.co.uk
Alistair, I do hope (for several reasons) the new site will include a Forum for discussion of Sorabji-related material...
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Alistair, I do hope (for several reasons) the new site will include a Forum for discussion of Sorabji-related material...
When it is up and running, I will certainly ask the site designers to consider such a facility.
Best,
Alistair
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Alistair, I do hope (for several reasons) the new site will include a Forum for discussion of Sorabji-related material...
Seconded.
My favourite movement of the Opus Clavicembalisticum... I guess the Fantasia/Variations.
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The first fugue is SUPERB. If I could play any amount of OC I'd probably choose that and not even bother with the rest, as I believe it sums up a lot of essence of the piece in 13 short minutes.
I've never cared for the shorter movements, with the exception of the Introito. The Fantasia and Cadenzas just seem too reckless and disagreeable for me. I used to be thrilled by the last four minutes of the Passacaglia and although the very last minute is some of the best stuff in the piece, I've stopped liking the climax before that because it lacks any compositional attempt to incorporate the theme as part of some larger dramatic germ, instead just setting it against buzzing chords that in my opinion take away from the moment if anything.
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The closest I will be to ever hearing the OC before the Powell recording is when JCarey, Etude and others are finished transposing it to sets of MIDI and digital recordings. Hopefully that will make the debates around here put less focus on inaccurate recordings, at least..