Piano Forum
Piano Board => Student's Corner => Topic started by: cwjalex on December 29, 2014, 10:37:10 PM
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i probably use a metronome about 40% of the time but recently i haven't used it at all. what do you guys think about its use? do you guys think it's okay to use fairly often or do you think it can be detrimental to use? i can understand why always playing with one can be damaging but using it 40% of time? like i said recently i haven't been using it but i am tempted to put it on.
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It's absolutely detrimental to musical expression. But if you are playing in a large ensemble, it can help since large ensembles tends to be conducted rather metronomically.
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I personally use it for fast passages so that I have the passage under my fingers before I use any rubato. I also try to never play even dynamic in anything when first learning. For instance, I'm working (slowly) on Chopin's first ballade, and the Presto Con Fuoco is a nominee for a metronome. Rubato is not appropriate there (at least to me) in anything but a little pulling back (like what Horowitz did in one recording). Some could also argue that the A major section of that piece deserves RH practice with a metronome (triplet octaves) but I disagree out of personal preference of interpretation.
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I count instead of using metronome. First thing about counting - you can count and play rubato (slow down couting when you slow down playing, etc) - with metronom it's impossible. Counting helps develop inner pulse, metronom usually doesn't. In my opinion using metronom too much can lead to lack of the inner pulse, because you start to rely on its taping instead of your inner pulse.
I use metronom rarely to check the tempo and check my counting, if the piece doesn't have a tempo fluctuations.
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For any use I might have for a metronome, I find a rock works just as well.
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To say that metronomes are useless, is probably quite an overstatement.
To have them while you practice performance is clearly a bad idea, but if you have a difficult rhythm, or simply want to see how free you are, I find it quite good.
An idea is to start playing, and use the metronome to see how fast it is. Then you turn it off, and turn it back on at a different spot, to see how far you have, or haven't, gone.
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I have to disagree with you J. Metronomes can be used to increase speed and accuracy, albeit at the expense of rubato (and inner pulse, was very interesting to read about). Even Beethoven himself used metronomes in his daily practice. Did he use them for every single piece he played? No, of course not, and neither should we today, especially with newer, more resonant pianos, and composers like Chopin and Liszt.
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Even Beethoven himself used metronomes in his daily practice.
Do you have a reference for that?
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This very website. Let me see if I can find the forum post.
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This very website. Let me see if I can find the forum post.
I've heard it claimed for Chopin, but Beethoven was into the Op 90s and already profoundly deaf by the time the metronome was invented. He is the first major composer to indicate mm tempi in his published compositions (though argument rages about the accuracy of them), but he was well past "daily practice" by the time using one was even an option.
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I do use a metronome, now and then -- mostly to see how my chosen tempo for a piece agrees with published markings once I begin to get a real feel for how I want the piece to sound. I do not use it for practicing, however; if I am playing so fast that my mental time keeping and beat is erratic, I'm playing too fast for my knowledge of the piece at that moment (exception: when I am very very first reading a piece -- say the first time or two or three through -- my tempos will be erratic and I know it. And then a metronome would be worse than useles...).
I admit, too, that I frequently find that my interpretation of a piece will be somewhat different from published metronome markings. I'm much too old a bunny to let that bother me!
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I use a metronome when there is a tempo marking in the note sheet and I want to figure this out. I can also use is occasionally if I feel that I have got the piece somehow uneven (easily happens when you practice and learn the piece in small sections, for example).
But otherwise I prefer my "inner metronome", which has turned out to be rather reliable. I believe you can destroy your own sense of rythm if you overuse the metronome. If the piece has an odd rythm I rather listen to a realiable recording until I "know" the piece.
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In my practice I only use metronome to measure speed of a pulse, it is never used (aka abused) as play along device. In my books musical expression trumps any obsessive want for metronomic playing at all stages of learning music.
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I don't think it's the best idea to "learn the notes and then add expression later." Notes and expression aren't separate entities.
That said, metronomes can be helpful in a number of situations (i.e. checking if your piece is up to tempo, fixing something that you know is uneven). But they're not something to be constantly using.
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If you can play with a metronome, you don't need it.
If you can't play with a metronome, then you also can't do rubato correctly; rubato is variation around a steady beat, and if you can't keep a steady beat then your rubato is just random error.
I use a metronome frequently to keep myself calibrated, but not all the time.
I use it when playing by ear to keep myself honest. If you haven't recorded yourself playing by ear with and without a metronome you may be in for a shock.
If you can't play with a metronome, please don't come and play or sing with any of my ensembles. You don't meet the basic requirements of being able to accomodate to external time.
One place I find a metronome extremely useful is in working through a passage with complex syncopated rhythms. it is very easy to get off a beat and not realize it, but if you have a metronome that gives you a different click on beat 1, you know when you went wrong.
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This very website. Let me see if I can find the forum post.
yes, I was surprised myself to read this. I never came across this Beethoven issue. Beethovens metronome markings, like most of all are really ridiculously fast. Editing and wrong interpretations, but damage done anyway.
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For any use I might have for a metronome, I find a rock works just as well.
To see a statement like this from the j_menz poster is so .... not surprising :)
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To see a statement like this from the j_menz poster is so .... not surprising :)
I'll have to lift my game.
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I'll have to lift my game.
Metronomes and alarm clocks work well for target practice, too -- particularly the older wind up ones, which make a nice "sproing" if you hit them right...
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Metronomes and alarm clocks work well for target practice, too -- particularly the older wind up ones, which make a nice "sproing" if you hit them right...
Such activity probably produces much more musical sounds as well ;D
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I use the metronome as a sanity check that I use to make sure I haven't strayed too far from reality once I've learned a new piece to my satisfaction.
Occasionally I have learned a new piece and got to the point where I'm happy with my playing of it, only to find that the metronome tells me I've taken leave of my senses.
Very much agree with this:
"In my books musical expression trumps any obsessive want for metronomic playing at all stages of learning music. "
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Very much agree with this:
"In my books musical expression trumps any obsessive want for metronomic playing at all stages of learning music. "
I bolded the part I don't agree with.
In the early stages musical expression is indistinguishable from sloppiness. I think the beginner should learn to play metronomically, then as they develop they can do "expression" deliberately rather than accidentally.
The advanced player is of course a different case.
Although, I know a number of advanced players who are good soloists but couldn't accompany a choir or congregation to save their lives.
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In the early stages musical expression is indistinguishable from sloppiness. I think the beginner should learn to play metronomically, then as they develop they can do "expression" deliberately rather than accidentally.
Interesting - I use a metronome in precisely the opposite way.
I only use it ONCE I've learnt a piece, to rein in and correct any nonsense and errors I've introduced with my 'expression'.
I imagine the result is much the same as the approach you suggest.
That said, I am going to try your way - maybe I'm missing a trick.
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I think the beginner should learn to play metronomically,
And this is where I disagree... What one must learn is to play in correct rhythm with consistent pulse.
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And this is where I disagree... What one must learn is to play in correct rhythm with consistent pulse.
I see your point, it's probably my background showing. I've spent the last 50 years playing in ensembles almost exclusively. I have to have a consistent pulse, BUT it must be calibrated to an external standard or I'm not a team player.
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I see your point, it's probably my background showing. I've spent the last 50 years playing in ensembles almost exclusively. I have to have a consistent pulse, BUT it must be calibrated to an external standard or I'm not a team player.
Yes, it would be different...I've never been much of a team player anyway...unless I'm the leader ;D
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I tend to think the top 3 inputs to musical expression are dynamics and articulation.
Voicing is 4th, rubato 5th.
Though I hear plenty of people who start and end with rubato.
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I bolded the part I don't agree with.
Indeed I believe that such bolded part a key element in the sentence.
IMO, expression is not an accessory to music, but is its core function. It's not something that gets added on at a later time, but rather is something that needs to exist in all forms of musical delivery, in all stages of learning and development. It is what differentiates a collective of pitches, rhythmical patterns, and mathematical relationships, and transforms them into a communicative medium.
Metronomic pulse is indeed essential to our understanding of musical organization, but it is not point of music.
I think one of the key elements in musical expression is awareness. Especially in the art music tradition, we are often urged to chase after idealistic interpretations - that these "masterpieces" we play require such respect. Ironically, it is quite often that this obsessive desire is what ends up choking the music we so much wish to emote. Musical expression is not solely about planning and executing the perfect game plan, but it requires us to be aware of the very thing we are doing. Music is influenced by so many elements out of our control: the acoustic space, our instrument, the prevailing environmental conditions - that need to be included as part of the music making process. Stubbornly dictating our idealistic and perfectionistic desires with reckless disregard towards awareness in-the-moment does not do anything good for our music.
So how does this relate to the metronome? It is a tool used to help us understand music better, however it is not the goal nor the prerequisite to music making. Expression is not something that emerges out of metronomic exactitude, but rather is the heartbeat of music itself.
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I tend to think the top 3 inputs to musical expression are dynamics and articulation.
;D
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Indeed I believe that such bolded part a key element in the sentence.
It is good to be reminded at even the earliest levels that we are supposed to be making music rather than playing notes.
To that extent I agree with you, although the inherent difficulty does force some attention to mechanics in the earlier stages.
However it doesn't necessarily follow that even the rawest beginner can improve on the composer's efforts. I am one of those who prefers not to rewrite everything the composer asked for in the name of expression, and that's what tends to happen.