Piano Forum
Piano Board => Instruments => Topic started by: outin on May 29, 2016, 04:31:58 AM
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How can it be so hard... I have been trying to get it done for the past 4 years and I am still stuck with my upright :(
Once again this week I decided to step up my game and looked at the options of used grands. I think I must mention that unlike in many other parts of the world, the selection of used good quality smaller grands is rather poor in Finland, because people have always had more uprights and most grands are in institutions.
Anyway I went to check out a Blüthner baby grand yesterday. It's from the 50's and it's not in pristine condition but it is cheap and at the moment I am desperate to get a grand to practice with. Since I live in a flat the really big grands are out of the question. It was not well tuned but it felt suitable for my hands and there were no major problems with the action. Felt 100 times better to play than my upright.
But then I made the mistake of trying out a 170 Bösendorfer that just happened to be there...the difference in sound was like night and day...I loved it. It's from the 70's-80's. And a lot more expensive. I could get a new Estonia 168 for just a few thousand euros more. So now I have no idea what to do again...I could afford the B if I sell my upright.
To make this even more complicated I have been told about 3 other grands that might be suitable. An 1981 175 cm Schimmel that would cost about half of the Bösendorfer and 1928 170 cm Steinway that would cost a little less than the Bösendorfer. The downside is that these are further away and I don't think it would be possible to try them out in my home. The dealer of the Bösendorfer actually would let me do that. But it's still very expensive and I could just buy the Blüther and upgrade some years later when my conditions might be changed. A small grand would not be that difficult to get rid of.
I hate making such decisions because when I get my hands on nice grands I just want them all...I like variety :(
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looking at a couple of photos of mid-1980s schimmel 175's, was surprised to see only two pedals. you deserve the full grand piano experience, no ? and it sounds like that piano is still much higher in price than the bluethner. as for the steinway M, it might be an exceptional instrument, but it is one of their mid size, mid price range and very popular models, with potentially lots of variation between instruments with more variations due to the age of the piano and its upkeep. and from what you've written it sounds like you already love the boesendorfer. does an instrument like that at its price appear in your market very rarely ? it seems there's a bit of market scarcity pressure at work, and you're the only relevant judge anyway. if you can't 'settle' for the bluethner without yearning for the boesie, you might have to be patient and wait to see what else appears in the market closer to your budget. however, the satisfaction of having a grand you really enjoy more than your upright, and didn't strain the budget might erase the potential boesie deprivation. as you commented, market scarcity would make it easy to sell later.
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looking at a couple of photos of mid-1980s schimmel 175's, was surprised to see only two pedals. you deserve the full grand piano experience, no ? and it sounds like that piano is still much higher in price than the bluethner. as for the steinway M, it might be an exceptional instrument, but it is one of their mid size, mid price range and very popular models, with potentially lots of variation between instruments with more variations due to the age of the piano and its upkeep. and from what you've written it sounds like you already love the boesendorfer. does an instrument like that at its price appear in your market very rarely ? it seems there's a bit of market scarcity pressure at work, and you're the only relevant judge anyway. if you can't 'settle' for the bluethner without yearning for the boesie, you might have to be patient and wait to see what else appears in the market closer to your budget. however, the satisfaction of having a grand you really enjoy more than your upright, and didn't strain the budget might erase the potential boesie deprivation. as you commented, market scarcity would make it easy to sell later.
The Schimmel is the only one of these with 3 pedals actually... But having the 3rd pedal is not that important...
I guess my problem is that Bosies are extremely rare here and a used one in my price range may not come up again...I tried a new one in a shop last year and loved that as well, but the price would be way out of my range...
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I don't know outin, if you keep going around ( and you certainly have) trying grands and are getting a repeat love for the Bosndofers, maybe that is your brand. nothing wrong with them anyway, they are a good reputable brand.
And you always have liked the Estonia line.
A very critical element for you is action.
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I don't know outin, if you keep going around ( and you certainly have) trying grands and are getting a repeat love for the Bosndofers, maybe that is your brand. nothing wrong with them anyway, they are a good reputable brand.
And you always have liked the Estonia line.
A very critical element for you is action.
I don't feel I have enough experience though. The few places to try out used grands have very few better ones. The new Grands in piano shops are almost always Yamahas or Kawais or European marks actually made in China. The new Bosie I tried was in Stockholm and even they only had that one. Since pianos are individual I feel I should have my hands on many more before making a decision, but where to do that...I think this is the main reason for my indecisiveness...
If I bought the Blüthner and then stumbled into something perfect it would not be the end of the world because it's not that expensive (everything is relative of course). But something used that costs closer to 20000 euros is a different matter...it's a big decision and I have trouble making it :)
EDIT: Just talked to the dealer. He'll make an offer on my upright and I will go there again on Wednesday...This time to really try out the Bosie. At least I am making some progress...
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Can't wait to hear your take on all that when Wed is over !! You're obviously not leaving the piano experience and you've also not been 100% satisfied with the upright experience. You know I pray, regardless of anyone else's view on that , I will be praying this goes well for you and that you can feel comfortable coming to terms with one of your choices/options. Maybe a calm resolve will come over you, you've been on this track for a long enough time to know what you want, lol.
On a grand you can physically look inside and see the condition of the hammers and most of the sound board. Look for separation and cracks in the sound board. Looking in from the top you will see physical splits or separation, IE space over the surface of the sound board if there is any. Looking up from the underside, you will see ribs or cross bars against the bottom side of the sound board, look that the board hasn't separated from any ribs, they should be tight against it. Hammers should be full looking and damper pads not tattered. The sound should be clear, not muddy, especially in the bass. You shouldn't hear buzzing or wringing sounds anywhere, unless it's a bell like clarity, some grand pianos have that sort of tonality especially in the upper mid tenor and it's natural for them ( I actually like that when i find it, it has a mesmerizing affect on me, I can work all over that tone playing with touch) . I hope the shop has the sense to tune the piano for you so you don't have to listen to odd overtones. Look that the tuning pins are standing proud to the harp, the string windings on the pins should be spaced well above the harp, not almost touching it. If they are very low then the pins have been driven into the pin block to gain tightness, not all together bad but the next loose pin will then require more serious action taken. And you know what you want in terms of action, I don't need to explain that. Against some common pre disposed opinions around here , some grands do have very light action . I have a certain disdain for an action I have to fight with but I don't care for it feather light either but that's me. Good luck outin !
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Gee, I don't see the need for a grand. I can get my console pianos to repeat a single note at 338 bpm, (two hands) are you faster than that? 2 notes per click of the Seth Thomas metronome at 168. I think the speed limitation is me, not the action. I'm 66 but I don't remember being any faster younger.
The middle pedal single note sustain is the only thing I miss on a grand.
Bosendorfers have a distinct ping and thinner strings. As such they are high maintenance, requiring more frequent tuning and string replacement in roughly 10-20 years instead of the 50-80 years of a Steinway or Yamaha.
Plus grands project the best tone out at the audience with the lid up, and uprights can bounce it off a hard wall 6" away right back at you. My Steinway 40 console has cloth covered holes in the front rail to allow good treble tones to pass through to the player. The Sohmer is so bright against the wall It doesn't need holes. The only thing uprights lack is powerful bass, but I find my two pianos have very satisfying bass, even though I know intellectually that the bass on my 40"ers is a beat tone of two higher frequencies, instead of being a "real" monotone. Some uprights go for the monotone bass, and I've found the Yamaha and Everett 44" versions of this to be rather boring and subdued. The whole 1982 Steinway 44" upright tone was subdued. The Steinway 44" probably needed a hard wall behind it to sound like anything to the player, but I played it in an open floor mall store.
There is a black 194? Sohmer "baby grand" near me for $400 this weekend. It "needs restoration" which might mean it has child damage to the case or might mean some of the action is sticky. You can buy a lot of felt for $18000. My 1982 Sohmer console with the Pratt Read action is one of the two consoles I own that will repeat at 338 bpm. The other is the 1941 Steinway 40", but not every key on that one. My piano teacher had a mid size Sohmer grand, 7' maybe, when I was a student.
That piano had very suitable action for a 90 lb adolescent with spindly hands.
I don't have the room for a grand and moving one in would be about $1000-2000 since 5 other keyboards would have to be moved to get the grand in the back room out of the way. I've got 1 arm this month until my injured tendons heal up. I'd have to hire qualified pro movers while I'm out of action. I'm going to let this grand piano pass, despite the once in a lifetime price, and concentrate on learning to repair the worn bits of the action on the Steinway.
Best of luck.
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Hmmm, I don't know why a woman can't buy what she has dreamed of buying for more than 3 years now, without interjection to the contrary. There are some decent uprights out there but it's not part of her dream. And I'm not sure under what authority we hear that a Bosendorfer is any higher maintenance than any other decent piano, in fact this article would kind of support stability within the case as a selling point. And anyone who doesn't love a singing tone in a nice grand ( or any piano) would be a rather odd piano lover. The same article speaks of that about Bosendorfer.
Here it is:
https://www.coloradopianobuyersguide.com/bosendorfer_features.htm
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Great tone, plus
great floor footprint, minus
moving cost of grand, minus
dealer support- plus care free
minus the cost
driving the neighbors crazy projecting sound through the apartment wall, minus.
I can see wanting a piano with great tone and speed, but I have two of them.
The grand market is crashing in price around here, WARNING Sohmer is not a bargain brand, it is just forgotten.
The world is being taken over by boring sounding Yamaha uprights. There is no rule that one has to buy one.
Estonia, Petrof, no opinion, there are none around here. Kawai uprights sound better than Yamaha to me, but not like the two I own. Not nearly as good as a 1946-1982 Baldwin Acrosonic 40 either.
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170cm is a decent size too.
Indianajo, when I got my grand I moved the clutter out and made the living room my piano room. It was pure desire to own a decent grand and that would sit square in my living room in plain view. I sold the old upright. Moving cost me 0. Not everyone's circumstances are the same as one particular individuals, be that yours or mine ( and I don't mean financial, I did this on a shoe string raising 5 kids a long time ago and on a less than average income for that time ). I was committed and devoted to own a grand piano, period. We can make up all kinds of reasons not to do something but when we "raise up" a true desire, it just seems that a way falls in place against every odd.
We can be and often are our own worst enemy, we shoot ourselves in the foot with doubt. Doubt is a sure fired tool of the devil ( and if you don't believe there is a devil, cool, call it a self imposed demon of defeat then) either way, it seeks us no good in life . Sometimes we just move forward with simple faith ( my particular faith is channeled to one I believe to be way more in charge of things than I am) and it all works because it was supposed to work. Something you could have done a long time ago was probably doable all along. Once you step forward, things fall in place and that stupid demon was defeated rather than you.
The lady is wanting a grand piano, it's on her heart and it has been for a long time.
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Thanks hfmadopter!
Of course things did get a bit more complicated again because I talked to my tech today. He thinks I should check out a few more options before deciding on this one and I guess he is right. So I'll try to arrange another piano trip before going to see the Bosie again, just to be a little more certain that it is what I really want. But I did also start to think how little difference there is on the price of this one and a new Estonia...
So my idea of a cheap little grand just to immediately get a better practice tool has suddenly vaporized...sigh...
@indianajo
There are a few reasons why I feel the need to get a grand. Maybe some uprights may be just as good, but I have not met such upright yet.
I am a sucker for resonant acoustic sound with beautiful overtones. But I really dislike the way the sound from an upright hits straight at me when I play. I am a bit over sensitive in my hearing and too loud feels almost physically painful. It's a little difficult to do anything for a harsh and loud upright, if I dampen the sound it just gets stuffy.
It's also a matter of playing technique. I have long, structurally weak fingers (hypermobile joints) and small hand span. With my handshape I end up playing very deep into the black key area and I have found that grands are much easier to play there. Practicing with my upright has caused me a lot of unnecessary tension over the years. I play with grands every week on my lessons, but it's difficult to drop the habits that I develope at home just to be able to play the notes audibly.
My upright really has a poor repetition, maybe because of the installed silent system. Playing the trills in my Scarlatti pieces nicely seems impossible. Yet I can do it on my lessons. If I will have to change my piano anyway, I really see no reason to get another upright. I live alone and can use the space in my flat anyway I want and it really isn't a problem for me to devote one third of my living room to a piano. I am also prepared to do whatever needs to be done with the acoustics. The neighbours will have to deal with it. There's no-one downstairs and the people upstairs are quite noisy themselves. I doubt they really care if I play 1-2 hours or even more daytime. I still have a digital for early morning and late night practice. But a digital could never replace an acoustic for me.
And just to be clear, I do not like the appearance of a grand piano at all, so it's definitely not a furniture issue...uprights look much nicer ;D
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Women definitely do have better hearing, less damaged, than most men. My upper frequencies stop at 14000 hz even though I've worn earplugs in loud areas ever since ROTC camp in 1969. However, when I had perfect hearing age 13 and played an ultra-bright Baldwin Acrosonic against a tile wall in a school cafeteria, I just played softer. I really like a bright sound. My Mother had a rather dull 1947 Everett, which morphed in the 80's into the Yamaha prototype sold here.
As far as banging the fingers against the back board, I've done that on pianos I do not respect. Not on the three I've talked about here. But you can't get those 3 models where you live, certainly not for the $300 a typical Baldwin Acrosonic goes for here. (The 1941 Steinway 40 sells for $4500 in galleries). I also have very weak fingers comparatively for a man, and find most of the grands I'm allowed to play, too stiff for me. Maybe the average grand is lighter than that. That Steinway 44 studio I tried in 1982 was waay to heavy a touch for weak old me. And I was 32 then, and in the US Army.
Sorry to hear your piano is slow. I've used some of those over the years, but never bought one. Some are quite respected by their owners, who play undemanding repretoire.
Do try to get out there and try some different pianos. Not just what the dealer is pushing this week. A trip to Germany or CZR might be in order if you have the vacation time, just to hear what is available out there. Moving a grand is minimum $600 here, and you might have a stair or elevator in an apartment which runs the costs up, so be sure you find what you want the first time.
Enjoy the shopping experience,
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Thanks hfmadopter!
Of course things did get a bit more complicated again because I talked to my tech today. He thinks I should check out a few more options before deciding on this one and I guess he is right. So I'll try to arrange another piano trip before going to see the Bosie again, just to be a little more certain that it is what I really want. But I did also start to think how little difference there is on the price of this one and a new Estonia...
So my idea of a cheap little grand just to immediately get a better practice tool has suddenly vaporized...sigh...
Well you have played two Bosendorfers you know you like. You could do worse than moving forward with those as your model to beat and or look for more of as you look around. At that, you're further ahead than last time then, because you know you can fall back on Bosi !
Which model/size Estonia will you be looking at ?
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as a bystander on the faraway eastern (relative to Midway island) shore of the pacific, am relieved to hear that patience is the course chosen for now. time to start believing that there's a beautiful estonia 190 cm grand(have not heard a bad word about this piano) at a price that won't break your credit in your future.
did my serious piano shopping more than ten years ago. with the size of our bungalow, and understanding Indianajo's valid point about facing the soundboard directly with an upright, plus the tradition of fine large uprights serving composers and top level pianists since the golden age of piano, did not focus on grands until my dear spouse expressed her strong preference for one. with the deterioration of my hand and wrist tendons since buying our vintage grand, am very glad we have a piano with a light, responsive action, easier to play than any upright in my experience. its tone is both sweeter and mellower than any upright I've tried, probably the top German uprights come close but they cost more than what we paid for our grand and its restoration.
Indianajo, should you ever travel to northern calif contact me and you have my invitation to play our grand -- stride piano and other music you favor would sound great on it.
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My grand is vintage and it's natural action is quite light but I weighted it slightly. It's still certainly not heavy and the weights removable or even moveable along the key core shank.
There are many differences in action between grands and uprights, not the least of which is key core length. The long key cores of a grand action changes the fulcrum behavior and if you are fully used to it you can feel the difference right away in an upright. And longer grands tend to have even longer cores than shorter grands, so this is part of the decision making process that will be felt, even if previously not knowing why, as length increases in a grand .
Additionally, is soft pedal action, which on a grand you can use as much for tonal color change within your composition as you can for quieter sound. On an upright, or most I know of anyway, depression of the soft pedal alters the throw of the hammer, moving them closer to the strings. On a grand the whole key bed shifts to the right. So now one string is removed from sounding except for sympathetic over tone, because of that position change. It gets to be quite the tool and something I do miss, be that on digital or upright, compared to playing my grand. And if the grand is regulated well, all this comes together as a way different experience from an upright for sure. It's just different and that's that. It's not all about strike speed or repeat. But in that regard on a grand you don't have to let a key fully up to re-strike a note either, which again has an effect on color. It's just how it is and anyone can argue about it till blue in the face but when you get used all this working together the change is noticeable. Course too, some folks hammer out their music, they don't do the fine touches for tonal color, it's wham bam. And if that is how someone plays or their music of choice and or personal compositions call for, then none of this matters anyway !
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Well you have played two Bosendorfers you know you like. You could do worse than moving forward with those as your model to beat and or look for more of as you look around. At that, you're further ahead than last time then, because you know you can fall back on Bosi !
Which model/size Estonia will you be looking at ?
The 168 cm parlour grands. The others are too big and too expensive.
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Women definitely do have better hearing, less damaged, than most men. My upper frequencies stop at 14000 hz even though I've worn earplugs in loud areas ever since ROTC camp in 1969. However, when I had perfect hearing age 13 and played an ultra-bright Baldwin Acrosonic against a tile wall in a school cafeteria, I just played softer. I really like a bright sound.
I like brigthness in upper registers as long as it's soft singing brigthness (how do you even try to describe these things in words?) but any metallic or harsh tones make it unpleasant. I have noticed that I can hear upper frequences better on one ear than the other (If I want to hear the crickets in my bedroom with the other ear I need to go to the window). But this may not be an age thing since I remember having some frequencies weaker already as a teenager. Could be the several ear infections I had.
A good piano tone goes deep into my brain and the sensations are almost physical. I cannot really explain what makes one piano so appealing and another not. But clearly the Bosie had a very firm, full and long sustaining singing sound in the individual notes of the middle register compared to the other grands there. It just kept going endlessly without changing much. I don't want a piano with a strong first attack that then dies out quickly. I like to play slow singing music. The overall tone was nothing but dull, when I listened to the dealer play it I almost wanted to go inside the piano to just enjoy the richness of the sound world. Then he played the same thing on another one and I remembered that I don't like that piece ;) But of course this may be just because I have not had much access to higher quality grands that are not Yamahas. I may feel the same from any Steinway...Yet even when recorded I am instantly drawn to the sound of some pianos, no matter what piece is played or who is playing. Others just leave me cold.
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Reading this thread reminds me of how completely personal is the interaction between a player and the instrument. You can perform every logical investigation and inspection, get technicians and experienced pianists to examine and test them for you, but in the end, if you don't feel the magic when you play it, if a piano doesn't infuse you involuntarily with uncontrollable surges of ideas, then you haven't yet found the right one, no matter how famous the name.
That is why I still have the Weinbach I bought at twenty-four. After the first thirty-four years I had reduced its action to tatters. I could have afforded a new one, anything I wanted. I wouldn't have had to work on the waterfront for three years first as I did back then. For months I did the rounds of all the piano shops and thrashed them all. Nothing, not even the really famous makes evoked the old magic. So I had it completely rebuilt ten years ago, and I've never regretted it.
I just tell this story to illustrate the point that it isn't all about famous names, technical knowledge, a lot of money or what certain notes do or do not sound like. The human response is a terribly complicated, chunked phenomenon, different from, and greater than the sum of its component parts. The ear and the heart override those things. A friend bought a new Fazioli a few years ago but I wouldn't swap with him. It's a beautiful piano, absolutely perfect, but the magic doesn't happen when I play it.
In short, beyond all the commonsense mechanical facts and the opinions of knowledgeable people, which are worth having, just go with your feelings.
I cannot really explain what makes one piano so appealing and another not.
Of course you can't, just trust that response completely. Use the force.
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I would think that 165 and up would be very decent, that translates to 5'5" and larger. 165 is about my lower limit. So 168 should be nice.
You describe something above, that you don't find in all brands and model of pianos, Outin. And if you like slower and melodic music and intermingling of harmonics etc, then of course what you are describing would very much be desired ( that long singing tone). C. Bechstein comes to mind as well, done up correctly, good strings, good sound board, proper tuning and voicing, it should have a bell clarity in the upper register and very rich bass. Bluthner to some extent, though it will probably be warmer in tone in the mid register and bass than the Bosendorfer. And much depends on the individual piano and how it was set up at that. It sounds like that Bosendorfer sings to your heart. Some of that singing may be how the pianist used the pedal too. Even so, if a piano can't sing then all the pedal in the world won't bail it out.
Again Estonia ? Hmmm, i don't know what to expect there, having no experience.
I bet you would love a Shigeru Kawai, very few used ones around and a new one more than twice your budget but just sayin. Again that clarity in the upper end of the keyboard, silk smooth action but crisp. I love them but surely they are not in my retiree budget !
I personally dislike a muddy bass and short singing upper register. Some builders seem to concentrate on that mid section tone and leave the two ends stranded. My own grand at this point could use re-stringing , especially the bass but generally it sounds very much like a Steinway O-L-M, somewhere between those. It has a powerful tenor to soprano and slightly above. The very top register a little woody but still sings. If I set the piano up with the top open coming out from a corner of the room, seating in the room facing the corner, then that strong tone will bounce off the wall and clock my right ear and it will ring for two days after. I have it set up instead to project across the room and that works fine, great actually, especially with the top up on the low stick. I also play it with the top down and just the music rack area opened up sometimes. That gives a slight muffling sound fairly warm tone. On a grand the sound board is on the bottom, a lot of sound is projected from up under the piano, you can feel the vibrations of that in the core of your body as it emits out from under. An upright has an open back and that hammers the wall behind the piano. I think that hammering would be more offensive to a neighbor than a melodic grand singing in the next apartment. If you have a dynamic grand you can play softly at that and with soft pedal you might mesmerize yourself in the process. And yet , sure open it up, get into the music and you could fill a concert hall.
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In short, beyond all the commonsense mechanical facts and the opinions of knowledgeable people, which are worth having, just go with your feelings.
Of course you can't, just trust that response completely. Use the force.
You're right Ted. My grand is a 1898 Henry F Miller ( thus my handle in the forum HFM adopter), it too is up for rebuild here before replacement. That would be my choice. HFM was a popular option back in the day, it was a quality piano and many tuners dub it the poor mans Steinway, because much of the design features are very similar. there is a rebuilder down the street from my house and he too feels they are a very well made piano. The new ones made today are made in China or someplace and not the same piano at all. You got to go back to around 1926 and back to get the real deal.
But on another note, these days I mostly play on my digital with Pianoteq software. I do a lot of my own compositions and changing piano types, brand s or even just the way I have them set up ( I have about 8 flavors of the Steinway D setup, for instance), well that changes the mood of my creativity and I'll come up with a whole different improv because of that , even though it's in the same key I was just playing in previously with another model. This is a valuable tool to me, I can't own that many grand pianos !
Your piano is sounding good !
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My grand is a 1898 Henry F Miller
Wow, that would have character !
The new ones made today are made in China or someplace and not the same piano at all.
Yes, I know. The piano shop were cheeky enough to suggest I trade in my Weinbach for a Wertheim made in Korea. Good grief, who are they kidding ? For one thing, the touch on them is shockingly light, no control at all. I played one in the shop for about an hour, all sorts of different stuff, and I couldn't "take off", just no response.
But on another note, these days I mostly play on my digital with Pianoteq software. I do a lot of my own compositions and changing piano types, brand s or even just the way I have them set up ( I have about 8 flavors of the Steinway D setup, for instance), well that changes the mood of my creativity ....
I see. Yes, that would certainly alter the creative process. I've never tried it but I don't think I'd be very good at it.
Your piano is sounding good !
Thanks, yes, I think so too. Luck probably can't be ruled out though. Jonathan Mason is an exceptional tuner and technician, at least in Auckland, and he said it is the best result of a rebuild he has managed. Some rebuilds are disasters. He says it is a very stable piano and should see me out, which event I hope is far enough in the future to record a few hundred more CDs.
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That is why I still have the Weinbach I bought at twenty-four. After the first thirty-four years I had reduced its action to tatters. I could have afforded a new one, anything I wanted. I wouldn't have had to work on the waterfront for three years first as I did back then. For months I did the rounds of all the piano shops and thrashed them all. Nothing, not even the really famous makes evoked the old magic. So I had it completely rebuilt ten years ago, and I've never regretted it.
I very much like the sound of your piano, Ted.
I do also like very old (historical) pianos because of their different sound. But I am aware that they are high maintenance and don't keep their tuning well. If I ever have to time, money and room I would like to get one though, in addition to my other pianos...I think I am really not a one piano woman, the more the merrier :)
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Yes, I know. The piano shop were cheeky enough to suggest I trade in my Weinbach for a Wertheim made in Korea. Good grief, who are they kidding ? For one thing, the touch on them is shockingly light, no control at all. I played one in the shop for about an hour, all sorts of different stuff, and I couldn't "take off", just no response.
Yes Ted, but people are dumb or just looking for the deals. The guy down the street has a particular brand, that slips my mind off hand, it starts with an H, but Chinese. You can buy a brand new and overly shiny 5'7" which would be a 165cm more or less for $7,900 US. The thing is, he says he can't fault one really ( I know him well enough that he would speak with me this way honestly), yeah it's cookie cutter made but he says because it's all computer laser cut pieces they fit like a puzzle, very consistent , very stable instruments, real wood, real laminates, no particle board etc. . Course they all play and sound pretty much the same, the first boring one sounds about the same as the next boring one ! He has various rebuilts in the shop too ( that's his real business, rebuilding) and they sit and sit in the shop because they cost more and don't have the dazzle/bling of these other "things". So people buy the new spiffy shiny ones for less. He had a really good condition Mason and Hamlin in there, it sat and sat, asking $11,000 ( not rebuilt but nice) it might still be there, I haven't been there in awhile. Ya know here is the thing, these piano's will catch on and you watch, slowly the prices will rise, just as cars have done. Well if you think about it, that is how Kawai came to America too.
As a matter of fact, another rebuilder I know sold Kawai back then and said just about what I just said now about them ( well machine cut, lasers weren't popular yet) ! Of course don't count the shigeru in with the rest, but overall, a Kawai is a decent piano today.
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outin, tomorrow is Wed already, would you be seeing and trying the Bluthner or the the Bosendorfer, both, maybe more than those ? I may have gotten the wrong idea of which it was ( not that it's any of my business).
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outin, tomorrow is Wed already, would you be seeing and trying the Bluthner or the the Bosendorfer, both, maybe more than those ? I may have gotten the wrong idea of which it was.
I'm on holiday so I seem to change my plans every day :)
I am not quite well, having a flu, so I decided to go to Helsinki on Thursday to try out one Schimmel and two Steinways. That's all I could find in the capital of this country...what a periphery. Then I will try the Bösendorfer more seriously again on Friday. On Saturday I will leave for my summer cabin for 3 weeks, so no more piano shopping until I get back.
One thing I am sure of now, I won't be getting something cheap that is just "ok" (the Blüthner). I have an idea of something better now so I won't feel comfortable with it...
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Hope you're feeling better !
I seems to skipping a lot of the bugs that have been around these parts since spiking my coffee and tea pretty heavy with ginger and other herbs and sweetening with local honey.. Seems to have knocked down the arthritis flare ups too.
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Hope you're feeling better !
I seems to skipping a lot of the bugs that have been around these parts since spiking my coffee and tea pretty heavy with ginger and other herbs and sweetening with local honey.. Seems to have knocked down the arthritis flare ups too.
I don't get flus much anymore. But I think my immune system was compromised from several weeks of stress and too little sleep. One of my cats nearly died from kidney failure after a routine operation (neutering). Has miraculously recovered but it took quite a lot of intensive treatmeant, both from the vets and myself. Added to that all the projects I had to finish at work before going on holiday plus the piano homework... I had to steal time from my sleep which is never good :(
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I don't get flus much anymore. But I think my immune system was compromised from several weeks of stress and too little sleep. One of my cats nearly died from kidney failure after a routine operation (neutering). Has miraculously recovered but it took quite a lot of intensive treatmeant, both from the vets and myself. Added to that all the projects I had to finish at work before going on holiday plus the piano homework... I had to steal time from my sleep which is never good :(
True.
We had to put yet another cat down this spring. That's number four in a little over a year. They were all getting some age on them and it seems each ones buddy went , then that one left behind being the next to get sick, over you name it for symptoms.
Get well anyway !
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I also think you have a connection to the Bosendorfer. When I first played one the sound and feel just immediately connected to me and I found an upright which I could afford.
Another thing is that my technician is always talking excitedly about how the Bosendorfer just responds perfectly and exactly to anything he does with the action, making it supremely adjustable and fine-tunable to your needs.
My thought is that if the Bosey is in pretty good condition, you will be happy now and happier in future that you bought it.
As another note perhaps, if you want a newer or larger piano in future, the Bosey will likely fetch a higher price and be easier to trade. But that depends on country and region a lot.
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I became a happy owner of a Fazioli piano, F212 model, from Euro Pianos Naples https://europianosnaples.com/ (https://europianosnaples.com/). After a lot of research and consulting with experienced pianists, I chose Fazioli as my dream piano. They are not the most expensive European brand piano - but worth every penny. Lucky to have Euro Pianos Naples in my area as so few dealers carry this brand. My pianist friends are lining up to visit. Can’t get over the clarity of the sound. If your budget is enough recommend to buy the same model. I think you will not regret)))
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My HFM is 180+ cm, I can totally rebuild it for 10-12K us and partially rebuild for less accordingly. So I have no need to buy a grand piano, this is as good as a Steinway L,O,M or somewhere in between those. So I don't want for a whole lot out of it. But I listened to a lot of various grand pianos online yesterday, all upper level grands. For my money Bosendorfer and C.Bechstein stood out consistently. They just have that presence about them, and ability to build and build from PP-FFF with superb clarity and tonal character . Each a little different, so personal preference prevails there.
There were other nice ones too but none quite matched these ( I did not listen to Fazioli but I know of someone who records on one in the genre of music I create , so I have an idea of that brand). I did listen to Estonia, be a nice chamber music piano. It has nice tone but it is not a Bosey or Bech. I did not find it's special redeeming quality, other than just nice tone, like I found in those other two brands. I'm sure it's different in real though but still, those others just stood out period.
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Outin following this and hope you feel better and find your right instrument.
I think you should , you owe it to yourself to try a couple of other pianos too if you can find them
1. Shigeru kawai, cannot praise these enough, it s a holy grail grail type instrument. A used one i think is probably the top value for a tier one instrument in the world. I have played these and estonia and much as i love the stoney, if i could squeeze into a shigeru, i honestly might.
2. Have not played but only read and heard incredible things about august forster. Try to get a viewing of one if these in for comparo and perpective
3. Let us kow what comes of it and what you decide. :)
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You never know, there was a lady in here a year or two back who looked all over and at all sorts of brands, looked into rebuilding Steinway's in terms of cost etc. And then she landed on a Kawai RX that was just singing to her heart. And the shop it was in had this particular piano for some time I guess ( I believe it was a left over new show room RX). They knocked off a couple of K on the deal and it now became the deal she couldn't refuse. Last we knew she had that delivered , set up , tuned to her house and that was that. She was in love and to my knowledge, we haven't heard from her since, lol !
We have a Kawai dealer about 35 mile away and I don't even go there afraid of what I might see. They might have a Shigeru in there ( one of my favorite instruments) and I'll find myself financing the foolish thing ! So I just don't tease myself.
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I am on my way back home from Helsinki... And not that much wiser.
The Schimmel was very uncomfortable for me to play so that one is out of the question...then tried the 2 old Steinways. The M was just sold while I was there. But it's ok, preferred the other one, an O model from 1919. I think I could get it in a reasonable price. But it was just fine, did not wow me. After trying out quite a few new grands as well (even a 77000 euro Bosie) I came to the conclusion that new pianos sold there all sounded horrible. So a used one it will be if I don't go and get the Estonia or suddenly get very rich... No sense paying huge money for something that needs to be played in and a lot of other work to not hurt my ears. And no guarantee it will ever please me.
@Visitor
A Shigeru Kawai in Finland? No chance, this is Yamaha land :(
The August Forster I tried in the other shop had a nice mellow sound and played very well in the lower dynamic range. But I hated the pedals, they were too close to each other and I doubt I would get used to it.
I think I have at least decided that whatever I buy it's a European one.
So right now I practically have 5 options:
1 The Bosenforfer which is quite expensive
2 The old Steinway O
3 The Bluthner which is cheap and would most probably be upgraded one day
4 A new Estonia which would leave me in a big debt
5 Just wait until I find something that is both wonderful and cheap. Which is highly unlikely but one never knows.
I have contacted all the major dealers now (there really aren't that many).
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I can only speak for myself, and I can say that if the difference in cost put me into a piano that I just really wanted to sit at and play and practice on and was going to increase my creativity vs one that just fixed say, the action, over what I own now ? For that I wouldn't mind and might even expect a small payment option, especially if I was single and didn't have other hobbies to bury money in or outside family obligations to cover etc.. It wouldn't be worth "big dept" though, I couldn't afford that anyway, being on a relatively fixed monthly income. Only you know all that stuff and not our business.
Now that said, you probably know what your heart really desires. And that is most likely to be the most satisfying pick, at least of your present 5 options..
Also, I'd say you learned a fair amount if you think about it. Some options are off the list, and that you did not know of before.
Surprised since you are square in Yamaha territory you haven't hit on any Yamaha grands ( G3's , C2's and such, just thinking out load).
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Have you tried out a C. Bechstein? Really wonderful instruments. The one I have played numerous times has a combination of both power and subtle delicacy I have yet to encounter in other instruments.
Since you are in the land of Yamaha, have you tried the S series? They are rather different then the instruments commonly found in music schools.
Regarding used instruments, I echo your sentiments completely. Playing a broken-in instrument is just so much more inviting to me, even if the action is not perfect. The piano in my home was purchased used. My own search for a grand that would be a good fit (financially, musically and size wise) took a good 10 years - but it was an incredible adventure and learning experience. Best wishes to you.
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the steinway M and O models were both engineered/designed by H.Ziegler. the O and its american variation L are widely considered among the finest grand pianos under six feet, and you are probably in the great majority to prefer the O over an M in comparable condition. there have been quite a few O's made over the years and another might appear close to you. it sounds like you have temporarily resolved to be patient for a used piano that reaches your sweet spot musically. a sensible decision.
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Surprised since you are square in Yamaha territory you haven't hit on any Yamaha grands ( G3's , C2's and such, just thinking out load).
Over the past years I have tried plenty of Yamahas in a reasonable size range and disliked the sound or touch of every one of them. So I have concluded that they are not an option for me. My teacher has one and I hardly ever play it anymore because I very much prefer the touch of her iBach.
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Have you tried out a C. Bechstein? Really wonderful instruments. The one I have played numerous times has a combination of both power and subtle delicacy I have yet to encounter in other instruments.
Since you are in the land of Yamaha, have you tried the S series? They are rather different then the instruments commonly found in music schools.
I am not sure if I have run into one of those... I think after yesterday I am just more convinced that a Yamaha is not an option for me.
I did run into a very old Bechstein 2 years ago and I did like it but because of the age and condition my tech recommended against it. Would have needed a lot of work and was also slightly larger than what I was looking for.
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the steinway M and O models were both engineered/designed by H.Ziegler. the O and its american variation L are widely considered among the finest grand pianos under six feet, and you are probably in the great majority to prefer the O over an M in comparable condition. there have been quite a few O's made over the years and another might appear close to you. it sounds like you have temporarily resolved to be patient for a used piano that reaches your sweet spot musically. a sensible decision.
I think you people still don't realize how small the market for used grands is here... It might take years for me to run into another O I could afford and even more to meet another Bosendorfer. There was a newer O being rebuild at the shop and after finished the price will be in the 30s. So while patience is good it may also be my worst enemy.
If I could travel to mainland Europe I could certainly find plenty of fine pianos. But such a trip is out of the question due to my health and time restrictions. Also I am not comfortable buying something not seen by my tech...
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Hi Outi, wow, good for you, you are getting a grand piano!!! I don't have enough time to read the whole thread right now but what I understood is that you are looking at a Boersendorfer that is slightly more money that you wanted to spend but you liked it a lot.
I would go with a Boersendorfer grand piano! I love that brand. I haven't played very many grands though, however every time trying pianos at the store Boersendorfers where my favorites to play bc of the key action and beautiful, rich tone.
Whereas every time I played a Steinway I would hate it. I may be weird LOL
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I may be weird LOL
no, you ARE weird.
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I get it outin, I'm hearing you.
Steinway O's are nice, however to me they don't have that tone in the upper register of the Bosendorfer or especially a C. Bechstein ( not any Bechstein but a C.Bechstein). I'm not surprised at your reaction. Mind you they are still a nice piano though and worth massaging to the right person looking for one. Also, massaged to taste it might be a bit of a different instrument. Not trying to confuse the issue though. Oh hell, you know you loved the Bosey. Second time round too !
Going to try the Estonia and get that out of your system next maybe ?
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Hi Outi, wow, good for you, you are getting a grand piano!!! I don't have enough time to read the whole thread right now but what I understood is that you are looking at a Boersendorfer that is slightly more money that you wanted to spend but you liked it a lot.
I would go with a Boersendorfer grand piano! I love that brand. I haven't played very many grands though, however every time trying pianos at the store Boersendorfers where my favorites to play bc of the key action and beautiful, rich tone.
Whereas every time I played a Steinway I would hate it. I may be weird LOL
Steinways are not the easiest instrument to set up, adjust action etc. And if that isn't done they are very rough to play, what should be a jewel turns to unpolished pewter.
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Gee, I wonder why C. Bechstein has such a draw on me, might be a bit much presence in an apartment situation though:
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I get it outin, I'm hearing you.
Steinway O's are nice, however to me they don't have that tone in the upper register of the Bosendorfer or especially a C. Bechstein ( not any Bechstein but a C.Bechstein). I'm not surprised at your reaction. Mind you they are still a nice piano though and worth massaging to the right person looking for one. Also, massaged to taste it might be a bit of a different instrument. Not trying to confuse the issue though. Oh hell, you know you loved the Bosey. Second time round too !
Going to try the Estonia and get that out of your system next maybe ?
I don't think an Estonia is an option right now. I would need to save some first and saving is not something I am good at...easy come easy go... ;D
I am still having the flu, woke up on the middle of the night feeling pretty lousy. So had to get up and play a little... I won't cancel tomorrow though. But I must not make the final decision in this condition. Don't trust my ears or my brain fully. I might just think of a price I feel more comfortable with and throw an offer on the bosie...
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I don't think an Estonia is an option right now. I would need to save some first and saving is not something I am good at...easy come easy go... ;D
I am still having the flu, woke up on the middle of the night feeling pretty lousy. So had to get up and play a little... I won't cancel tomorrow though. But I must not make the final decision in this condition. Don't trust my ears or my brain fully. I might just think of a price I feel more comfortable with and throw an offer on the bosie...
I give you credit for even attempting this with that flu !
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I give you credit for even attempting this with that flu !
Flu or not now I have the time for all these visits to piano shops...
Don't want to postpone going to the cabin more and I realize that if I wait until my vacation is over it might be another year before I have the time and energy for this sort of project again :)
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You'll kick that flu eventually LOL.
Good luck today !
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You'll kick that flu eventually LOL.
Good luck today !
I am not feeling well, so just a short update. I have decided against the old Steinway O for several practical reasons. I also decided that I want that grand before the summer is over. That means I have 2 options left.
I played a lot today with both the Bösendorfer and the Blüthner. Both are comfortabke for my hands and now it's a choice between them. Negotiated the price for the Bosie as much as I could and he'll give me a good price for my upright. But the Bluthner really isn't such a bad option for a first grand and would be a comfortable size and price. So I'll think about it a couple of weeks and then decide which one it will be.
I did also record a little to be able to listen later but too tired to do anything with the files today, I can post something tomorrow.
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That Bluthner all tuned up and if in good mechanical shape might be a good option for you and your apartment. What size is that one (you probably listed it, I'll look ) ? Suffice it to say that probably either would work and be better than your present piano.
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prices on steinway O's, newer or older, can be outrageously high, and access to a highly qualified technician (which apparently you have) essential. looking forward to hearing the audio samples and you sound fairly confident that either instrument will give you much joy. peace
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That Bluthner all tuned up and if in good mechanical shape might be a good option for you and your apartment. What size is that one (you probably listed it, I'll look ) ? Suffice it to say that probably either would work and be better than your present piano.
The Bluthner is 154cm.
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the 154 cm. grand is what Bluethner now calls its model 11, their smallest at just over five feet in anglo terms. those leipzigers are very rational, with their tallest upright at just under five feet, very serious for the configuration. my first grand was about the same size as the model 11 and to this day it was the piano that motivated me to play more than before or since, but life is simpler in one's stupid youth.
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The Bluthner is 154cm.
That should have a nice mid range in it when properly tuned. The little experience I have with them is the bass lacks a bit, still blends nicely though, but that's me and it may be fine for you at that( I'm at liberty in my own house to make a piano roar lol). Most Bluthners have a little unique tone to them due to aliquot stringing ( a fourth suspended string in the mid and upper notes that is not struck by the hammers but give a sympathetic resonance and something you should enjoy I would think). If you listen to some you tube videos you don't have to hear many to be kind of taken by this tone.
Bass strings are very high tinsel in these pianos, a tuner needs to proceed accordingly, very small movements of the tuning hammer. And of course it is a little unique to tune as well because of that fourth string.
Bluthner action should be nice, it's their own roller action.
How are you feeling today ?
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That should have a nice ;D range in it when properly tuned. The little experience I have with them is the bass lacks a bit, still blends nicely though, but that's me and it may be fine for you at that( I'm at liberty in my own house to make a piano roar lol). Most Bluthners have a little unique tone to them due to aliquot stringing ( a fourth suspended string in the mid and upper notes that is not struck by the hammers but give a sympathetic resonance and something you should enjoy I would think). If you listen to some you tube videos you don't have to hear many to be kind of taken by this tone.
Bass strings are very high tinsel in these pianos, a tuner needs to proceed accordingly, very small movements of the tuning hammer. And of course it is a little unique to tune as well because of that fourth string.
Bluthner action should be nice, it's their own roller action.
How are you feeling today ?
Just a bit stuffy and still coughing...it's also allergy season of course...
I have been packing all day and now finally on my way to the cabin with 6 cats and one digital piano ;D
Did not have time to edit the recordings yet. I have an internet connection at the cabin even if a bit slow so I'll do it after settling in...
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Enjoy !
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So I have sound samples from the 2 pianos I am now considering. I will post them separately, hopefully they are not too large for the forum.
It was not the best day to test play and record because there was a lot happening in the store. Some grands were leaving and there was a couple also piano shopping, so a lot of background noise. There were people talking and trying out different pianos beside me, so much of the recorded material is unusable, but I tried to cut samples with less background noise... Also they had moved the Bosie to a very tight place away from one of the grands leaving which meant I had not enough room to sit comfortably. Don't mind the playing, I had some trouble adjusting because both pianos felt very responsive and easy to play compared to what I am used to. Also had trouble playing any pieces from memory… enough with excuses, frankly I just suck ;D
I didn't put much effort into placing the microphone and didn't even adjust the recording level, just put the thing on the piano beside the music stand facing the strings. That and neither of the pianos not being perfectly in tune makes the recordings a bit harsh.
One of them had better keys and was more comfortable to play, but neither felt bad.
You may keep in mind that the price difference between these two pianos is 13000 euros :P
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Sample recordings of piano 1 attached.
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Sample recordings of piano 2 attached.
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The first is obviously in better, or clearer anyway, tune. This brings on a state of wonder, wondering which holds tune better.
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The first is obviously in better, or clearer anyway, tune. This brings on a state of wonder, wondering which holds tune better.
I don't think we can tell really. The piano 2 probably has not been tuned for a while. The first one had been tuned the week I was there, but it still wasn't quite perfect.
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I don't think we can tell really. The piano 2 probably has not been tuned for a while. The first one had been tuned the week I was there, but it still wasn't quite perfect.
would not be unreasonable to ask if the out of tune instrume t could given a quick retune, business should undrstand you need to make an apples to apples comparo, right now its apples to steak sauce. i think you will "feel" which is rightm if you like them both a lot, then consider it is a forever piano or you want to trade up to something else in 6-12 years or so :)
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To me, #1 has much more of a singing quality and #2 is very colorful in its tone but not as assertive as the former. It sounds like you were more comfortable playing #1, yet may have been pondering more about piano #2 when making the recording on it.
What were your impressions?
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To me, #1 has much more of a singing quality and #2 is very colorful in its tone but not as assertive as the former. It sounds like you were more comfortable playing #1, yet may have been pondering more about piano #2 when making the recording on it.
What were your impressions?
Actually my hands were more comfortable playing piano 2, but piano 1 was better placed with less hassle around.
I personally like the sound more on piano 2 even now when I listen to the recordings.
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Piano 2 sound much like my 1889 HFM when it needs tuning. A bit mellow with some color. Being out of tune of course brings unwanted color LOL ! I'd love to hear it tuned and hear if some of what I heard in the bass ( kind of thudding and or groaning)goes away, it may well do that. The treble might sing more too. But even out of tune you can tell it's warmer sounding than the other, though the other clearer presently. Well anyway Bluthner's are warm and Bosendorfer's sing, it's kind of the nature of both beasts.
As to playing , the bit of apprehension was probably brought on in trying to listen. It's easy to play a piano that is more in tune, you don't have to wonder if it sounds right or not.
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would not be unreasonable to ask if the out of tune instrume t could given a quick retune, business should undrstand you need to make an apples to apples comparo, right now its apples to steak sauce. i think you will "feel" which is rightm if you like them both a lot, then consider it is a forever piano or you want to trade up to something else in 6-12 years or so :)
I have trouble deciding still :)
I can ask piano 2 to be tuned better but I am not that worried about tuning. It only needs some TLC from my own tech. In the end our climate is such that nothing will stay in tune for long unless perfectly climate controlled. I'm used to pianos being out of tune most of the time really. I also have an option to try out the piano in my own place before deciding on the purchase and get it checked by my own tech.
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I have trouble deciding still :)
I can ask piano 2 to be tuned better but I am not that worried about tuning. It only needs some TLC from my own tech. In the end our climate is such that nothing will stay in tune for long unless perfectly climate controlled. I'm used to pianos being out of tune most of the time really. I also have an option to try out the piano in my own place before deciding on the purchase and get it checked by my own tech.
That option is worth more than gold, diamonds and rubies.
Hah, as far as trouble deciding, that's why I like Pianoteq, drop down menu and change it up, never out of tune unless I had dialed that into my preset. I can't stand a groaning out of tune piano, I won't play it.
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The condition of the sound board and keyboard is much better on piano 2 (Bösendorfer). There's a little crack on piano 1 (Blüthner). Also the Blühner is about 25 years older than the Bösendorfer. But for the low price I don't think the Blüthner is a bad purchase. Then again I doubt I would be happy with it for more than a few years... While it does sing, I'm not really happy with the lower register and the tone colour. The keyboard also could be a bit more responsive. It does not hurt my ears though, as some other cheaper grands and all the new Yamahas did.
As an added bonus the Blüthner is small enough to fit our elevator which makes it a lot cheaper to move if necessary. The Bösendorfer would require quite a lot of manpower to get in and out of my place with some tricky stairs.
But I still cannot decide...because grands such as the Bösendorfer are extremely rare here and I might not stumble into one again...and there really isn't anything I don't like about it, except the price of course.
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That option is worth more than gold, diamonds and rubies.
Hah, as far as trouble deciding, that's why I like Pianoteq, drop down menu and change it up, never out of tune unless I had dialed that into my preset. I can't stand a groaning out of tune piano, I won't play it.
Here we are different. I would take a slightly out of tune acoustic piano any day over a digital.
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Here we are different. I would take a slightly out of tune acoustic piano any day over a digital.
Me too if it were just a digital piano without Pianoteq and a decent sound system. No comparison. I rarely play my grand piano now. Maybe quarterly I touch up the strings and play a tune, then go back on the digital. But to just play a digital piano as it comes out of the box, no thanks.
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Me too if it were just a digital piano without Pianoteq and a decent sound system.
Haven't tried that but honestly I have just grown to really like the unpredictability of acoustics pianos and to try to emulate that seems far too much work...time better spent playing :)
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Haven't tried that but honestly I have just grown to really like the unpredictability of acoustics pianos and to try to emulate that seems far too much work...time better spent playing :)
Well there is no getting around the fact that an acoustic piano is real, regardless of what it reveals.
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Outin, you're describing number 2 as the better investment, if I'm reading this all correctly. You felt better on the keys, you like the tone better and you stated it's in better condition. Forgetting about the money ( for a minute anyway), which piano will you want to come home to and look forward to playing and practicing on ?
I'm not sure if i would willingly/knowingly buy a piano with a crack in the sound board. Especially if I planned on flipping it in a few years. A dealer is going to try and sell that for all he can get, by the same token use that as a severe downgrade on trade in. it may not even effect the tone but it's there and you know it's there. it's one thing to own it and a crack appears, you deal with it. But to knowingly buy into that is another matter to at least weigh into your thought process.
It's me thinking out loud again lol !!
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Outin, you're describing number 2 as the better investment, if I'm reading this all correctly. You felt better on the keys, you like the tone better and you stated it's in better condition. Forgetting about the money, which piano will you want to come home to and look forward to playing and practicing on ?
If they cost the same I would of course take nr 2. But the more I think about it the more my reason tells me to just get the cheaper one now. I don't want to end up with another year without one and I am not sure I am ready to decide on such a big investment right now. And I hope my tech can the Bluthner sound better than it does now. In the end I am looking for a practice tool (although it would be nice to be able to make good sounding recordings as well).
Although... I don't think I mentioned that the bosie has ivory keys...they felt really good to play...
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If they cost the same I would of course take nr 2. But the more I think about it the more my reason tells me to just get the cheaper one now. I don't want to end up with another year without one and I am not sure I am ready to decide on such a big investment right now. And I hope my tech can the Bluthner sound better than it does now. In the end I am looking for a practice tool (although it would be nice to be able to make good sounding recordings as well).
Although... I don't think I mentioned that the bosie has ivory keys...they felt really good to play...
In tune that is going to be a different sounding instrument, number 2. But you should ask your tech if he is really comfortable tuning a Bluther, it's a little different . i think i mentioned that already some posts ago now.
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In tune that is going to be a different sounding instrument, number 2. But you should ask your tech if he is really comfortable tuning a Bluther, it's a little different . i think i mentioned that already some posts ago now.
He's quite skilled and does plenty difficult work so that's not a problem. Besides he suggested the Bluthner in the first place when we were looking at the options online.
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He's quite skilled and does plenty difficult work so that's not a problem. Besides he suggested the Bluthner in the first place when we were looking at the options online.
Hmmm.
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Hmmm.
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Just to clarify, the Bosie came to the picture later... it was never advertized since it was reserved but had been cancelled the day before I went there.
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Just to clarify, the Bosie came to the picture later... it was never advertized since it was reserved but had been cancelled the day before I went there.
Hmmm, was kind of like saying "I see". Now I say it again, I see. It would seem un important which one was there first ?
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Hmmm, was kind of like saying "I see". Now I say it again, I see. It would seem un important which one was there first ?
Ok, I thought you had some problem with him recommending I go check out the Bluthner :)
(Only because where I come from "hmmm" is usually used as a cynical/negative statement)
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Ok, I thought you had some problem with him recommending I go check out the Bluthner :)
(Only because where I come from "hmmm" is usually used as a cynical/negative statement)
It can be here too but that's not how I meant it, maybe I should have dropped the H. I tend to use that when texting relatives and people who know me well because its how I speak sometimes.. Call it habit. Probably not the greatest one.
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It can be here too but that's not how I meant it, maybe I should have dropped the H. I tend to use that when texting relatives and people who know me well because its how I speak sometimes.. Call it habit. Probably not the greatest one.
It's no problem for me, when in doubt, better just ask :)
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I'm going to be so interested to see which one you settle on, if you do! Myself, I'd pick the Bosendorfer from what you have said, and figure out how to get it into my place (there's almost always a way... though I don't recommend having to hire a crane, which I had to do once! ;D).
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I may be biased, but I think everything that is posted points to the Bosendorfer except money.
Bluthner is a wonderful piano, no doubt, but ion this case I think it loses out. Even after listening.
I think money should be the last concern (I had the same issues before buying mine. Still suffering from severe credit card debt, but so worth it and when I play, the sing of the Bosendorfer puts a smile on my face every time).
I want my piano to be perfect, so any cracks will worry me. As you said the Bosendorfer is not common at all and in great condition. That means it will keep its value and it will be easier to trade if you want to get a larger one some day. A dealer will absolutely hammer you on imperfections if you try to trade the Bluthner.
A further thing on the cost. My personal view is to never compromise. Buy the best and greatest you can afford that appeals to you (within sensibility). The quality shows in the long run and the cost will not seem so much after a few years!. You will never have doubts and second thoughts that you should have done better and you don't have to go through the process again in the future. Its much less stressful and you can enjoy your purchase to the fullest.
Good luck with your decision!
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I may be biased, but I think everything that is posted points to the Bosendorfer except money.
Bluthner is a wonderful piano, no doubt, but ion this case I think it loses out. Even after listening.
I think money should be the last concern (I had the same issues before buying mine. Still suffering from severe credit card debt, but so worth it and when I play, the sing of the Bosendorfer puts a smile on my face every time).
I want my piano to be perfect, so any cracks will worry me. As you said the Bosendorfer is not common at all and in great condition. That means it will keep its value and it will be easier to trade if you want to get a larger one some day. A dealer will absolutely hammer you on imperfections if you try to trade the Bluthner.
A further thing on the cost. My personal view is to never compromise. Buy the best and greatest you can afford that appeals to you (within sensibility). The quality shows in the long run and the cost will not seem so much after a few years!. You will never have doubts and second thoughts that you should have done better and you don't have to go through the process again in the future. Its much less stressful and you can enjoy your purchase to the fullest.
Good luck with your decision!
Course it's not our money and not for us to say but I feel about the same way. In the end though, it makes a difference if this cleans out the bank account entirely and if that bank account was mad money, saved money just for this purpose or the purchase cuts into essential money . Again none of our business.
That's ok, I'm not even sure I know which piano is which any more lol !!
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did i miss something? updates? :D ;D ;) 8)
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did i miss something? updates? :D ;D ;) 8)
Nothing to update really... I've been enjoying my holiday and given myself some time off making any decisions. Instead I went to a recital today to hear some wonderful piano music live like Scriabin's 8th and (I have to whisper so that Thal won't hear) Sorabji's 1st sonata.
One more week before I will return home and then I'll probably be able to let you know...
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Finally an update:
I called the dealer yeasterday and told him that I will buy the Blüthner. It will be delivered some time next week. I really appreciate all your help and opinions. But of course in the end I take full responsibility for my decision :)
There were other things but basically I wanted to keep my options open in case I decide to move in a few years and have more room and more choices. I think this one will serve me well for a few years after my tech has worked his magic on it. And because of the size and price it will be easier to get rid of if I run into something I really cannot live without...
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Right on! I think wise choice and as you exorcise.its own little demons you may find you like it more than eexpectex I know that was the case w my little sleeper of a grand, after a few years of tinkering and having my tech shore up some factory shortfall and lack if dealer prep, i addoremy litttle grand (for now :) )
(https://rs643.pbsrc.com/albums/uu151/jdh5484/mysnooop2.gif~c200)
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Nice Outin !! I'm sure your tech will iron it right out. Congratulations ! Smiling with you over here in the US this morning !
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Congratulations Outin!
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Hooray! Enjoy it!
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Enjoy the new piano!
And please upload a snippet once its been regulated and tuned to your satisfaction.
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There has been some delay due to my schedules, but the piano will finally be delivered tomorrow evening... I hope it will be a beginning of a beautiful relationship. I do understand that relationships need work, so I have been told ;)
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There has been some delay due to my schedules, but the piano will finally be delivered tomorrow evening... I hope it will be a beginning of a beautiful relationship. I do understand that relationships need work, so I have been told ;)
That's awesome , Outin !
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Update:
The Blüthner arrived finally!
I will not be able to make recordings yet, because the damper pedal is making so much noise, which the dealer has to repair. It will be done when it is tuned after settling a little. The dealer does offer 5 year guarantee on used pianos, which is good when buying such an old one. If something actually breaks at least I won't have to pay everything from my own pocket.
After this is done I will ask my tech to come and evaluate what he thinks should be done with it now and how much is worth it considering the age and model. Since it's from 1950 it is surely in need for work, and I am prepared to pay for it to a certain level. But I do also need to consider if I want to instead update in a few years.
I have only been home late in the evening after it arrived, so I have only been able to play briefly yesterday and haven't tried it with the lid open yet...
But despite the problem with the pedal and one of the lowest bass dampers stucking I think it sounds nice in my living room (which is a concrete block). It's mellow and singing, very different to most new pianos I have played. Even if the tuning is what it is, there's no such harshness that disturbs me in most pianos I have played. The bass is not that deep as is expected with this size, but I don't mind, since my upright has a bass that is far too loud and I am sick of it... High volume isn't even something I wanted, I don't have a large space for the piano and my ears hurt very easily.
It also fits my hands much better than my upright, the keys are more responsive and I think they may actually be slightly smaller. I don't know if and when it has been regulated, so there's probably lot to do in that depertment...
Good thing I have some Baroque pieces to practice, so I can play without the pedal for now. Will be able to really try it out this weekend. I am a realist, so I do expect little things to come out in use...
Oh, and the cats really love it! ;D
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Good to hear! Any chance of photos while we await the recording?
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Good to hear! Any chance of photos while we await the recording?
Of course, I can take some this weekend. I personally couldn't care less how pianos look though, only how they sound and play...as long as they are not white of course ;)
Edit: Just called the dealer and they will come tomorrow to fix the pedal. So need some other excuse to not record something this weekend ;D
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Outin, about the cats: Watch them closely for a time with the grand piano in the house, in two ways. One is they may try to bat your dampers around. And secondly, that they don't go inside the piano and want to try and mark territory. I like to keep my piano top up on the low stick and when I do that and leave it that way overnight my music rest assembly can be slid over the dampers on mine. Any cats we have owned over the last 30+ years were only interested in this for a period of time but if I left the top fully open I could find a cat sleeping in there. In my case, the piano sounds best in this room on the low stick anyway. Of the many cats we have owned , one tried to urinate inside my piano. But with the piano on the low stick everyting becomes a bit awkward for the cats, that's the good news.
And what ever you do, regardless of how many music books you have seen with flower arrangements on top of a grand piano, never ever do that with water in a vase with cats around. You surely will find it tipped over and the water will run right down through the hinged area and on top of your dampers and strings and ultimately rest on your sound board. If you are lucky you will find it in time to mop it up quickly with no damage done..
Just a word to the already cat conscious wise, lol !!
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That is good news ! Once you get used to it your playing will likely improve out of sight.
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Outin, about the cats: Watch them closely for a time with the grand piano in the house, in two ways. One is they may try to bat your dampers around. And secondly, that they don't go inside the piano and want to try and mark territory. I like to keep my piano top up on the low stick and when I do that and leave it that way overnight my music rest assembly can be slid over the dampers on mine. Any cats we have owned over the last 30+ years were only interested in this for a period of time but if I left the top fully open I could find a cat sleeping in there. In my case, the piano sounds best in this room on the low stick anyway. Of the many cats we have owned , one tried to urinate inside my piano. But with the piano on the low stick everyting becomes a bit awkward for the cats, that's the good news.
And what ever you do, regardless of how many music books you have seen with flower arrangements on top of a grand piano, never ever do that with water in a vase with cats around. You surely will find it tipped over and the water will run right down through the hinged area and on top of your dampers and strings and ultimately rest on your sound board. If you are lucky you will find it in time to mop it up quickly with no damage done..
Just a word to the already cat conscious wise, lol !!
No, worry, I have no intention to put flowers on my piano...or anywhere else in my house... ;D
The cats will have no access to the insides of the grand ever, the lid is always closed when they are around... They can lie on it while it is covered and not in use. The room with the grand is a cat free zone whenever needed.
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How exciting! Congratulations!
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This is how the cats think a grand piano should be used :)
(https://korat.kuvat.fi/kuvat/kuvia/IMG_2476.JPG/_full.jpg)
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But I prefer this:
(https://korat.kuvat.fi/kuvat/kuvia/IMG_2482.JPG/_full.jpg)
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Yeah, cats are cats, they might each have their own personality but they still act like a cat lol !
Nice piano outin ! Reminds of a Chickering I played a small recital on years ago.
I think I see a baseboard heat strip under it though. Can you live with that one strip shut off in the winter or would you be freezing ?
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I think I see a baseboard heat strip under it though. Can you live with that one strip shut off in the winter or would you be freezing ?
What's a heat strip? I am pretty certain I don't have one...
The only heating source is in the other side of the room by the window, and that's one reason why I chose this place.
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BTW I will have to get another humidifier now, since the upright needs to have one too. The automatic one I have was pretty expensive but worth it in our conditions.
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What's a heat strip? I am pretty certain I don't have one...
The only heating source is in the other side of the room by the window, and that's one reason why I chose this place.
It doesn't matter, I guess I was wrong in any event. Good news on your pedal being repaired tomorrow !
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The pedal was fixed. Took a bit of work but it's now silenced.
I just have to get used to the touch. This one is so much easier to play than my upright that it's almost confusing...and this piano really sings :)
I cannot help it, I am just really pleased with the sound...
I also had to go to the hardware store to get some more light fixtures and set them up because it was far too dark for my eyes in that corner of the room. And now I am hungry and tired, so wasn't able to record anything...maybe tomorrow...
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The pedal was fixed. Took a bit of work but it's now silenced.
I just have to get used to the touch. This one is so much easier to play than my upright that it's almost confusing...and this piano really sings :)
I cannot help it, I am just really pleased with the sound...
I also had to go to the hardware store to get some more light fixtures and set them up because it was far too dark for my eyes in that corner of the room. And now I am hungry and tired, so wasn't able to record anything...maybe tomorrow...
Yes, from your description going into this I had a feeling you would like the sound of the Bluthner. They have a little bit unique sound to them but very pleasing, one certainly can not say they are without character. You will get used to the touch and you very likely will find new ways to express yourself on this piano as well. I'm very happy for you Outin and wish you the best with this piano going forward !! Welcome to the world of grand piano ownership and all it's about. And just think, it gets better from here as the new tunings come along etc. Nice .
Was the tech able to work on that one hanging damper as well ?
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Yes, from your description going into this I had a feeling you would like the sound of the Bluthner. They have a little bit unique sound to them but very pleasing, one certainly can not say they are without character. You will get used to the touch and you very likely will find new ways to express yourself on this piano as well. I'm very happy for you Outin and wish you the best with this piano going forward !! Welcome to the world of grand piano ownership and all it's about. And just think, it gets better from here as the new tunings come along etc. Nice .
Was the tech able to work on that one hanging damper as well ?
No, that will be done later by someone else I think. They will have to take out the action to replace one part anyway after it has arrived from the factory (there's a temporary replacement in now). The damper is not much of a problem for me now since that key is seldom used...
I am still surprised how much I like this one, since I keep hearing how small grands are worse than better uprights and have inferior sound. I was also a bit worried that the grand would sound worse at my place than at the shop, but instead it sounds better. I don't even have to do anything about the acoustics of the room I think.
I still have the option to update to the other B if I want, the dealer has it at his home and is not actively selling it, but right now I have almost forgotten that one :)
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No, that will be done later by someone else I think. They will have to take out the action to replace one part anyway after it has arrived from the factory (there's a temporary replacement in now). The damper is not much of a problem for me now since that key is seldom used...
I am still surprised how much I like this one, since I keep hearing how small grands are worse than better uprights and have inferior sound. I was also a bit worried that the grand would sound worse at my place than at the shop, but instead it sounds better. I don't even have to do anything about the acoustics of the room I think.
I still have the option to update to the other B if I want, the dealer has it at his home and is not actively selling it, but right now I have almost forgotten that one :)
Some small grands are so so I guess but just about any grand will give you better key feed back to the strings than an upright. Nicer to play, easier to work on what's not to like. Ya, larger grands have more vroom but you stated you weren't looking for that. Bluthner is a very good name and sought after for the very reasons you like yours. What you are feeling is why some folks go looking for Bluthners. Bosendorfer ? It's probably going to be more powerful and spontaneous, explosive, etc... Yours mellow, singing , intermingled tones. You have just scratched the surface of what you can do with either instrument in terms of expression. All I can say is Enjoy !! A decent grand and well set up you should be be able to caress expression from it.
I'm not an upright fan, so I doubt you ever heard what you stated above from me . You've taken a good step here Outin.
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I seem to be completely brain damaged today, cannot play anything without my fingers forgetting where to go...all my recording attempts have failed. But to get it over with I will attach one of my attempts. Don't blame the piano when the pianist is bad :)
This one was recorded with the lid completely closed and the mic stand about 2 meters from the piano. I will look into other options on a better day...
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That's ok, I'm not doing a whole lot better myself this morning. But your piano sounds nice, the tone comes though in the recording.
You will have to relearn the keys now and adjust your touch. You have been fighting action you never liked for how ever long you owned that upright.
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That's a beautiful piano Outin.
Is it Mahogany?
I can hear the singing tone in the clip too.
It sounds like a very good purchase made and most importantly, it speaks to you. 8).
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That's a beautiful piano Outin.
Is it Mahogany?
Thanks. It's Walnut.
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Thanks. It's Walnut.
lovely finish. would be great to get some vid of your hands playing it so we can see the keys /fallboard or even w music desk removed for a better shot of the pins and strings sometime.
I think you'll find the more you play it the better you get to know the instrument, the more you can eek out the sound you want even more. lovely little recording btw, enjoyed hearing this nice vintage piano. if it was never restored, it's in remarkably nice shape from sound/photo you submitted.
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lovely finish. would be great to get some vid of your hands playing it so we can see the keys /fallboard or even w music desk removed for a better shot of the pins and strings sometime.
I think you'll find the more you play it the better you get to know the instrument, the more you can eek out the sound you want even more. lovely little recording btw, enjoyed hearing this nice vintage piano. if it was never restored, it's in remarkably nice shape from sound/photo you submitted.
Here's another picture
(https://korat.kuvat.fi/kuvat/kuvia/WP_20160716_20_00_04_Pro.jpg/_full.jpg)
The real colour shows best in the low right corner of the photo. I don't know if I mentioned it, but the cabinet has been treated (sanded and lacquered), so it's not in original condition. But that's all that has been done. What you cannot see in the photos is that the keys have some discoloration on them. The insides of the piano do show the age more. It will be interesting to see what my tech says when he sees it...
Right now I am not going to spend too much time looking for faults inside, they will surely come out in time anyway :)
I'll take more pictures or video of the insides when I find my better camera...I have no idea where I put it...
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Lovely, outin ! And personally, I'd be glad they lacquered it vs some other finishes out there.
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it is pretty, i like the wood finishes more lately, used to not like them that much when i was younger, they've grown on me.
i do remember what I liked about Bluthners now, they have a 3rd string if i'm not mistaken that is not struck but sits along side the other two and it allowed to resonate and tends to create some really pretty overtones and a distinct singing sound vs a grand of similar size without that 3rd string. I believe some say that the use of aliquots made that unnecessary but i'm not entirely convinced they are equal, it's close but I do recall liking some Bluthners a lot better vs other tier one pianos of the same size for that reason.
Outin you're has three strings for each right, or am i way off/confused w/ another German piano (played a bunch in the past not quite remembering which is which lately)
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it is pretty, i like the wood finishes more lately, used to not like them that much when i was younger, they've grown on me.
i do remember what I liked about Bluthners now, they have a 3rd string if i'm not mistaken that is not struck but sits along side the other two and it allowed to resonate and tends to create some really pretty overtones and a distinct singing sound vs a grand of similar size without that 3rd string. I believe some say that the use of aliquots made that unnecessary but i'm not entirely convinced they are equal, it's close but I do recall liking some Bluthners a lot better vs other tier one pianos of the same size for that reason.
Outin you're has three strings for each right, or am i way off/confused w/ another German piano (played a bunch in the past not quite remembering which is which lately)
Visitor, till Outin gets back at ya. Bluthner's have a 4th string not struck. Grands ( and most pianos) have 3 strings generally, except in the deep bass..
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Visitor, till Outin gets back at ya. Bluthner's have a 4th string not struck. Grands ( and most pianos) have 3 strings generally, except in the deep bass..
darn it, that's what i meant. I would've caught that if i were at home w my instrument, i knew there's an extra string, not enough coffee this afternoon to think straight. thanks for the quick correction, but yeah that's what i meant, i knew they have an extra resonating one, i think it's a pretty genius design.
:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
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darn it, that's what i meant. I would've caught that if i were at home w my instrument, i knew there's an extra string, not enough coffee this afternoon to think straight. thanks for the quick correction, but yeah that's what i meant, i knew they have an extra resonating one, i think it's a pretty genius design.
:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
I know all about not enough coffee ! No big deal.
That Bluthner of Outin's just beckons for some minor scale Improv. Heck, just to play an E minor scale and some chord sequences with cadences or modulation etc would begin to give a feel for the keys . Some pedal, some soft pedal work. Just experiment. It has a deep sultriness about it and ringing tone. Well that's what my imagination is saying just from the little clip she posted. Might feel different when played .
Me, I'm messing with calligraphy in Copperplate script ( don't ask) !
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Visitor, till Outin gets back at ya. Bluthner's have a 4th string not struck. Grands ( and most pianos) have 3 strings generally, except in the deep bass..
Some Blüthners have this (aliquot strings) but mine doesn't.
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I would love to take the action out to see more, but decided against it, since I have not done it before...I will wait until the dealer sends a tech to make the rest of the repairs. Since 3 dampers on the bass area are not working perfectly, this sometimes blurs the harmonies.
In the meantime, I uploaded more photos from the insides of the piano:
https://korat.kuvat.fi/kuvat/kuvia/ (https://korat.kuvat.fi/kuvat/kuvia/)
Here you can see the faults on the soundboard as well.
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it is pretty, i like the wood finishes more lately, used to not like them that much when i was younger, they've grown on me.
I thought a shiny black piano is fine, until I got one and my 6 cats walked on it :) Not to mention my own greasy fingerprints...
I usually don't like wood that much. But I was prepared to take anything as long as it sounds good and plays well. In the end I am glad this one wasn't the yellowish wood they often are, because that's not to my taste at all.
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One more sound sample, this time without any pedal...cannot play this piece well, but it was something I could somewhat play from memory...
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I enjoyed your recording and it displayed a bit more about the nice sound of your piano. It sounds like your hands may be starting to acclimate too !
I think the big issue about the cracks in the sound board are two. 1. Keep your piano room well humidified and they will stay closed, let it dry way out and they will open up. As long as the cracked area is still attached to the ribs it should not cause buzzing but if it does detach by chance, a good tech can reattach them. 2 I suggest you continue to deal with this dealer on your next purchase if there ever is a next purchase. If there is not a trade in or sale of your piano then the cracks probably don''t mean a whole lot but they will affect trade in value or sales value and this dealer knows full well the history. Your piano sounds good from what I can hear. And again, I enjoyed this recording ! I think your piano looks in great condition considering it's pretty much original. The condition of yours makes mine look ugly, none of the parts in mine from 1898, or very few, were plated, so it's pretty dull inside there. I have raw steel pins in mine for instance.. Satin black, with a few kids knocks and warts in it. I threaten to refinish it, maybe one day.
The fact that you have carpet under the piano I'm sure is helping the sound difference between there and in the show room ( not that I know the show room conditions). But carpet can really tame a piano's tone out.
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nice pix and recording.
I'm meticulous about keeping my shiny black piano clean outin so i know how you feel about it looking nice and but being a magnet for every smudge, swirl , mark, etc.
one of my previous techs who's a Steinway tech for an all Steinway school did a lot of work on my piano, especially in the action, I got to pick his brain a lot with the many calls to him to get stuff worked out on mine (eventually we exorcised all pianos demons and it's been problem free for a few years now).
i asked him how bad is a cracked soundboard, he said believe it or not, it can be not that big a deal, actually trying to fix a cracked soundboard can be worse, since if the sound doesn't suffer from visible surface crack of imperfection, just leave it alone since some compounds/glue etc used in 'repairing' can later get knocked lose in the board and then the sound can cause an unfix-able 'buzz' or vibration later on and it will drive you nuts.
it's a lovely piano, I would likely get in there and give it a good 'dry dust/dry clean' , i found that gettiing a hair drying that has a 'heating element off' function and just runds the blower to blow room temp/cold air works well, i open the piano up and get in there and blow all sorts of dust, hair crud out every so often. I keep my piano completely closed under two piano covers 95% of the time now so not much of an issue but was super effective at my old place when i opened it up more.
as for any pedal squeaks, you tech should have access to a dry power/graphite powder lubricant. No grease/liquid based, that's temporary and will eventually gunk up, my tech said he took a course in training called 'find that squeak' and it's what his instructor told him to use, and i haven't had a reoccurance of pedal squeek in years since that initial fix. worth exploring.
is your tech going to fine regulate your action? I wonder if your hammers are squared up/level, mine needs it but it's a timely/expensive job.... :'(
how exciting.
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nice pix and recording.
I'm meticulous about keeping my shiny black piano clean outin so i know how you feel about it looking nice and but being a magnet for every smudge, swirl , mark, etc.
What piano do you have again?
one of my previous techs who's a Steinway tech for an all Steinway school did a lot of work on my piano, especially in the action, I got to pick his brain a lot with the many calls to him to get stuff worked out on mine (eventually we exorcised all pianos demons and it's been problem free for a few years now).
i asked him how bad is a cracked soundboard, he said believe it or not, it can be not that big a deal, actually trying to fix a cracked soundboard can be worse, since if the sound doesn't suffer from visible surface crack of imperfection, just leave it alone since some compounds/glue etc used in 'repairing' can later get knocked lose in the board and then the sound can cause an unfix-able 'buzz' or vibration later on and it will drive you nuts.
it's a lovely piano, I would likely get in there and give it a good 'dry dust/dry clean' , i found that gettiing a hair drying that has a 'heating element off' function and just runds the blower to blow room temp/cold air works well, i open the piano up and get in there and blow all sorts of dust, hair crud out every so often. I keep my piano completely closed under two piano covers 95% of the time now so not much of an issue but was super effective at my old place when i opened it up more.
as for any pedal squeaks, you tech should have access to a dry power/graphite powder lubricant. No grease/liquid based, that's temporary and will eventually gunk up, my tech said he took a course in training called 'find that squeak' and it's what his instructor told him to use, and i haven't had a reoccurance of pedal squeek in years since that initial fix. worth exploring.
is your tech going to fine regulate your action? I wonder if your hammers are squared up/level, mine needs it but it's a timely/expensive job.... :'(
I don't really know yet...I was only able to e-mail him before buying this. I'll contact him later. Considering all the money I saved not buying the Bosie, I guess I can spend some on this one :)
So a cleaning job ahead for me ;D
I played a little today with the lid open and it is considerably louder. I think in this room at this time it's nicer to my ears with the lid closed and that also works better with the cats.
I investigated the problem dampers and I think the reason why they don't work properly is that the felt underneath has "swollen" to the sides so they stick together a bit. I guess I could just take some scissors and trim them :) But maybe I will let the professionals deal with it...
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What piano do you have again?
I don't really know yet...I was only able to e-mail him before buying this. I'll contact him later. Considering all the money I saved not buying the Bosie, I guess I can spend some on this one :)
So a cleaning job ahead for me ;D
I played a little today with the lid open and it is considerably louder. I think in this room at this time it's nicer to my ears with the lid closed and that also works better with the cats.
I investigated the problem dampers and I think the reason why they don't work properly is that the felt underneath has "swollen" to the sides so they stick together a bit. I guess I could just take some scissors and trim them :) But maybe I will let the professionals deal with it...
1. pm'ed you a f/u....
but it's here on my recent audition room upload, note like i commented to Ronde, this is a much smaller room than it used to be in so i am still playing w position of mic and room acoustics, i send pm you a different video from my other channel where the instrument opens up a bit in a larger room to get an idea of the sound. it's little, but it's marvelous especially after the fine tuning i've done w it over the years... 8)
2. on the cleaning i should mention before the 'blowing' out w the blow drying, especially the first time, it helps to use one of those swiffer type 'wand' dusters, non feather, but the kind that that the dust and hair 'stick's too, those work really well in areas you can reach and just under some of the strings.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NeZNsq_cyuo/TbmlT7BBoeI/AAAAAAAAJyM/ECVeyKoXmpc/s1600/Swiffer%2B360%2BDuster.jpg)
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Looking at the hammers on my piano I wonder if this piano hasn't been played that much or if they aren't original after all. They look very good to me (not that I've seem many hammers, but they don't look much worse than the ones on my 5 year old Yamaha upright).
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it's little, but it's marvelous especially after the fine tuning i've done w it over the years... 8)
It is nice, but I cannot read the brand name, so I'm curious. And can you tell me the size in numbers I will understand? :)
And I do indeed have such a duster, use it to get cat hair off my keys :)
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Hmm don't have my spec sheet w me, i pm'd you some info (felt didn't want to bog your thread down w my stuff) but i think legntwise i just over 152cm, mainly a limitation due to how often i tend to move and space limitations as i tend to place the instrument in a back room vs a big living area, would like to eventually go up in size some day in the distant future :)
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Looking at the hammers on my piano I wonder if this piano hasn't been played that much or if they aren't original after all. They look very good to me (not that I've seem many hammers, but they don't look much worse than the ones on my 5 year old Yamaha upright).
It takes a lot of playing to wear down hammers. My 1941 Steinway 40 console, the hammers look just alike in the middle to the ones on the ends. There is no visible wear, just the notches for the strings they are delivered with from the factory. This 1941 piano has been played enough the black paint is worn off the end of the middle black keys, and the finish is worn off the wood rail behind the keys in the middle. The previous owner obviously had much longer fingers than I have. My 1941 Steinway does have some wiggly pivot problems, but not hammer damage.
Congratulations on getting a sound you like. I'm still amazed at the difference in touch you feel between this Bluthner and your old console. I have only played substantually a Willis grand in the last 49 years (for 90 minutes), and I didn't feel the action was any different than my Sohmer & Steinway consoles. But I was sight reading a difficult Christmas cantata for a fellow choir member to learn the part, so I didn't really try anything athletic. Willis was a store brand, and since the finish was blonde, probably manufactured between 1958 and 1966. I played a 1950's Baldwin grand for about 15 minutes three years ago, and the touch was so heavy I really couldn't do my usual pieces on it for long. I played a newish Yamaha 44" console at a piano lesson 4 years ago, for 50 minutes, and the action felt normal although I really didn't like the sound of the bass notes.
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I suggest you continue to deal with this dealer on your next purchase if there ever is a next purchase. If there is not a trade in or sale of your piano then the cracks probably don''t mean a whole lot but they will affect trade in value or sales value and this dealer knows full well the history.
I am not at all sure if I ever will sell this piano even if I do want to get another one... One day I will retire and will be able to spend months at my summer place. This piano would fit in there and I would not dare leave anything much more expensive there for the winter. I would love to have a real grand there, since there are no neighbours to limit how much and when to play...
I think I should probably sell the upright now that I would still get a nice price and put that money aside for future piano purchases. One dealer said I should put the asking price as 8000EUR if I advertise it in the net and I would probably get 7000-7500EUR. The silent feature is handy, but a digital with good touch would do as well for quiet practice. I will have to see if I ever feel like playing the upright anymore on the acoustic mode now that I have the grand. I am just not very good at getting rid of things...
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I would have no hesitation in selling the upright personally, not given what you have said about it over the years and knowing myself in those shoes ( I know that I was quick to sell mine once I got my grand). You came to really not like the sound or the action in it, so what value is it then ? you might as well get some money from it that you can put towards something you really want.
You do love your pianos, you might as well have ones that please you. What's the chances of winterizing the summer place and just move there and stay once retired ? It sounds more ideal to your purpose musically than the apartment.
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I would have no hesitation in selling the upright personally, not given what you have said about it over the years and knowing myself in those shoes ( I know that I was quick to sell mine once I got my grand). You came to really not like the sound or the action in it, so what value is it then ? you might as well get some money from it that you can put towards something you really want. Or with retirement ahead, ask me and I'll tell you about how that can go, you might as well get your savings and your larger spending done now. You know retirement is looming up. In my case I knew it was coming ten years ahead, and the company actually pulled the retirement card for me at age 64-1/2. Faced with 100% or work two more years for the same 100% but minus the severance for 44 years served because I would be going on my own, I opted for their way. But glad I mostly got my toys squared away over that 10 year period !! Once you retire your flexibility in spending is seriously held back, unless by chance you have something far greater than I do. If so, that's wonderful ! And believe me, I'm not complaining.
You do love your pianos, you might as well have ones that please you. What's the chances of winterizing the summer place and just move there and stay once retired ? It sounds more ideal to your purpose musically than the apartment.
It's in the middle of nowhere so while it is actually possible to live there all year round, it's not really not for me...The days are short here in the winter and when it's dark and freezing outside there's not much to do there really... Where I live the climate is better in the winter :)
I also enjoy the carefreeness of living in a flat, so I think I will prefer to split my time between the two.
As for retirement our system is a bit different, but I am well aware of the reduced income and that's my favorite excuse to buy a lot of music that I don't have time or ability to play now :) I tell myself every year that it's time to start saving...but I never do. Who knows, I may not live long enough... But it's less than 20 years now so I guess it's time to put something aside. Not that I really worry much, I can survive with less if necessary :)
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outin, one thing to consider, is w the money from the sale of the upright should you ditch it is that after a few years (or sooner or later....) you might just invest in a rebuild/refreshing of the piano, the case looks like, maybe some fine polishing but you might decide to have it restrung, or new hammers/felts, etc or a new rennner action or retrofit it w/ a Kawai Millenium 3....the piano is nice, I probably wouldn't get rid of it to buy a different one unless i HAD TO HAVE Bigger, but if not, then i might just have it fully restored restored ground up rebuild....just a thought
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outin, one thing to consider, is w the money from the sale of the upright should you ditch it is that after a few years (or sooner or later....) you might just invest in a rebuild/refreshing of the piano, the case looks like, maybe some fine polishing but you might decide to have it restrung, or new hammers/felts, etc or a new rennner action or retrofit it w/ a Kawai Millenium 3....the piano is nice, I probably wouldn't get rid of it to buy a different one unless i HAD TO HAVE Bigger, but if not, then i might just have it fully restored restored ground up rebuild....just a thought
Of course I might just want another different one in addition to this... Some people collect cars...;)
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Of course I might just want another different one in addition to this... Some people collect cars...;)
Let me guess ? A Bosendorfer next !
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I was under the impression that you only played late Scriabin. Good to see the op. 15 receiving some love.
Nice piano.
Btw you can send your upright to me.
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I was under the impression that you only played late Scriabin. Good to see the op. 15 receiving some love.
Nice piano.
Btw you can send your upright to me.
Will you pay for postage?
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Let me guess ? A Bosendorfer next !
Sure and then maybe something like this:
https://www.periodpiano.com/fortepiano_copies.html (https://www.periodpiano.com/fortepiano_copies.html)
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Sure and then maybe something like this:
https://www.periodpiano.com/fortepiano_copies.html (https://www.periodpiano.com/fortepiano_copies.html)
no collection is complete without a 300K Stuart and Sons concert grand in birds eye [type] finish
;D ;D
i'd be happy w this used August Forster the kids in Portland seem to have for sale, talk about a rare instrment with a low market demand so price settles into a sweet spot for such a mint condition beast
https://www.michellespiano.com/portland-pianos/pre-owned-pianos/august-forster-215-grand-piano/#prettyPhoto
surprised hasn't sold but everyone wants a Steinway, most probably don't know how cool an piano this is. yowza wowza
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no collection is complete without a 300K Stuart and Sons concert grand in birds eye [type] finish
Hmmm... I don't really like the finish...
i'd be happy w this used August Forster the kids in Portland seem to have for sale, talk about a rare instrment with a low market demand so price settles into a sweet spot for such a mint condition beast
surprised hasn't sold but everyone wants a Steinway, most probably don't know how cool an piano this is. yowza wowza
Why don't you throw them an offer? :)
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Hmmm... I don't really like the finish...
Why don't you throw them an offer? :)
lol i'm so broke i can't even afford to pay attention [right now] ha ha (at least for something like that, mere peasants need not apply :'( ).
but back to business, YOUR PIANO, great instrument. hope we can see an audition room upload soon :)
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but back to business, YOUR PIANO,
I know...I should practice...but I am simply too tired after work this week...
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I know...I should practice...but I am simply too tired after work this week...
i get you. i have had stretches of a whole work week and very little pratice with many days in a row of not at all, part of being a grown up I suppose. But I don't adult very well so i try to cram something in. I would suggest on those days you feel like not practicing at all, sit down, 10-15 minutes tops, and just read through or play through some or all of what you are doing, not necc practice , but expose yourself to it, I have found sometimes i get a bit refreshed and actually practice a little and play for more than i planned, other times I just hit my mark for min time reading through and call it good.
there's a saying, which i hate, that goes , miss a day of practice, you'll notice, miss two days and your teacher/prof will notice. miss 3 days others/the public will notice :o so when it's really bad i'm trying to make sure i don't let >2 days go by with no practice/playng whatsoever and if it's defcon 5, then i'll will make myself just read through, you'll reinforce a few things or at least not let them slip in the other direction...
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i get you. i have had stretches of a whole work week and very little pratice with many days in a row of not at all, part of being a grown up I suppose. But I don't adult very well so i try to cram something in. I would suggest on those days you feel like not practicing at all, sit down, 10-15 minutes tops, and just read through or play through some or all of what you are doing, not necc practice , but expose yourself to it, I have found sometimes i get a bit refreshed and actually practice a little and play for more than i planned, other times I just hit my mark for min time reading through and call it good.
there's a saying, which i hate, that goes , miss a day of practice, you'll notice, miss two days and your teacher/prof will notice. miss 3 days others/the public will notice :o so when it's really bad i'm trying to make sure i don't let >2 days go by with no practice/playng whatsoever and if it's defcon 5, then i'll will make myself just read through, you'll reinforce a few things or at least not let them slip in the other direction...
It usually works fine for me to tell myself I'll just play for 5 minutes because if I can drag myself to the bench, then I will always spend at least an hour because I find something interesting to do...but I just cannot make myself get up from the couch today. I also missed my morning practice because I slept too late and didn't have time...I don't like this time of the summer, it always drains all energy from me and I get all kinds of aches >:(
A few days really hasn't made much difference on my playing, sometimes I feel it just gets better from a little break... maybe it only works that way of one is good to begin with :)
EDIT: After I wrote that I got mad at myself, went to the piano and practiced for almost an hour ;D
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Micro managed practice and little one or two day setbacks are about meaningless. You can take the summer off and get it back in a relatively short time actually. Consistency is key though, over the long haul. A day here or there is nothing. Now not getting off the couch, that could get bad ? Gee how would I know ?!
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Micro managed practice and little one or two day setbacks are about meaningless. You can take the summer off and get it back in a relatively short time actually. Consistency is key though, over the long haul. A day here or there is nothing. Now not getting off the couch, that could get bad ? Gee how would I know ?!
I did get up, finally :)
But this morning is bad, I can hardly walk and my wrists ache. Not from playing but cyckling a lot. I really need a better bike...I just hate shopping...except for pianos of course :)
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I did get up, finally :)
But this morning is bad, I can hardly walk and my wrists ache. Not from playing but cyckling a lot. I really need a better bike...I just hate shopping...except for pianos of course :)
Cycling with any distance involved requires core strength. The only way to build core strength in cycling is to cycle. One summer some time ago when I took up cycling after decades away I slowly built myself up to about 11 miles a session. One day my daughter ( before she blew her back out) wanted to ride to Woods Hole, double the distance. I did it OK but then the rest of the day I was dead. But yes you should be fit to a proper bicycle not just grab some discount store thing and get on it and go. I own two bikes, one is my canal runner, my spring get fit bike and my fishing bike, the other is a true road bike. And right now for the last week I've been on antibiotics for an old hernia flare up ( the doc didn't want the mesh that is in there to get infected), so I've been off my bikes for a couple of weeks here and sitting on the couch !!!
Another thing people over look when cycling is proper hydration.
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cycling does put quite a load on the hands and wrists. how the handlebars and grips are set up makes a considerable difference, and from some recent test rides, the bikes that have an upright position, more weight directly over the pedals (some now are semi-recumbent, the legs pushing a bit forward and down), take a lot of stress off the wrists and thumbs.
you have a lovely family, from the photo. our large male feline likes sprawling across the top of our grand, but is not fond of the sound of it being played. luckily for both of us he spends most of his waking hours outside. just from reading about it, the summers in northern latitudes sound tiring for the majority of folks accustomed to resting at night. have been night oriented myself since very young and have little trouble sleeping at mid day or surviving with naps ; it was the winters that affected me much more in somewhat northerly states in the u.s., nothing in the lower forty eight of course like the Baltic states or scandinavia or alaska.
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cycling does put quite a load on the hands and wrists. how the handlebars and grips are set up makes a considerable difference, and from some recent test rides, the bikes that have an upright position, more weight directly over the pedals (some now are semi-recumbent, the legs pushing a bit forward and down), take a lot of stress off the wrists and thumbs.
you have a lovely family, from the photo. our large male feline likes sprawling across the top of our grand, but is not fond of the sound of it being played. luckily for both of us he spends most of his waking hours outside. just from reading about it, the summers in northern latitudes sound tiring for the majority of folks accustomed to resting at night. have been night oriented myself since very young and have little trouble sleeping at mid day or surviving with naps ; it was the winters that affected me much more in somewhat northerly states in the u.s., nothing in the lower forty eight of course like the Baltic states or scandinavia or alaska.
My bike was supposed to be just temporary, just like my upright ;D
I had a very good one that was stolen 2 years ago. I needed something fast to drive to work (which is less than 2 km) so I just picked up something cheap. Lately I have started to make longer trips again and this one is no good for me...
I have 3 more cats actually...but they are all the same colour so you probably wouldn't know the difference :)
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But this morning is bad, I can hardly walk and my wrists ache. Not from playing but cyckling a lot. I really need a better bike...I just hate shopping...except for pianos of course :)
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But I prefer this:
(https://korat.kuvat.fi/kuvat/kuvia/IMG_2482.JPG/_full.jpg)
I am struck by the similarity of our pianos and their position in the rooms. I have found the corner position excellent for recording. I imagine the sound must, to some degree, bounce off the walls, producing a richer effect.
(https://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/Oso1138/IMG_2630small.jpg)
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I am struck by the similarity of our pianos and their position in the rooms. I have found the corner position excellent for recording. I imagine the sound must, to some degree, bounce off the walls, producing a richer effect.
It will be interesting to try recording with a grand, which is a new experience for me. There are so many more options than with my upright...
So is there an acoustic benefit in storing stuff under a grand? :)
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It will be interesting to try recording with a grand, which is a new experience for me. There are so many more options than with my upright...
So is there an acoustic benefit in storing stuff under a grand? :)
all joking aside, not only is it a great place to store tons of music one may not have shelf space for (you and i being score hoarders this is a handy thing). But if you store with the right stuff or place sound dampening materials under it, it can help w/ volume control, ie pillows on top of storage or boxes, etc. :)
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all joking aside, not only is it a great place to store tons of music one may not have shelf space for (you and i being score hoarders this is a handy thing). But if you store with the right stuff or place sound dampening materials under it, it can help w/ volume control, ie pillows on top of storage or boxes, etc. :)
If you happen to have a bunch of cats, it's not such a good idea to store scores there though...one of mine has developed a fetish for Scriabin... He steals the scores and they end up looking like this:
(https://korat.kuvat.fi/kuvat/kuvia/IMG_2506.JPG/_img1280.jpg)
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So is there an acoustic benefit in storing stuff under a grand? :)
Not as far as I know, I am just lazy and untidy.
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It will be interesting to try recording with a grand, which is a new experience for me. There are so many more options than with my upright...
So is there an acoustic benefit in storing stuff under a grand? :)
I'd be wanting to use two mics. You can look up recording software and articles for that matter that will describe mic positioning. In my software I use AB positioning a lot on my digital. Obviously I'm not actually setting up mics with the digital but the resemblance is as if I had set it up this way.
Decades ago I tried recording my grand, it was a basic over all disaster, FWIW. I do much better on the digital using either Pianoteq software or Mixcraft software. Either way it ends up Pianoteq sounds in Mixcraft anyway for final adjustments. I'm 100% sure that without spending more than I want to spend for recording on my grand, that I do better recordings on the digital. IMO, you really need some decent equipment to do justice to the sound of a real live grand piano, as well as just about perfect tune of the instrument or it sounds plain old shabby/terrible. And again IMO, two decent quality mics placed in any different number of configurations. It's a hobby/en-devour/vocation, all it's own ! IMO. But then that's totally my opinion, others are free to feel as they wish.
Now I love my grand but if I was going to record a real grand piano's worth of my music, I'd be headed off to Boston to a recording studio I think. Better yet off to Arizona to Piano Haven's studio.
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Considering the quality of my playing I think I'm fine now with the equipment I have. I already hear a big difference between what I got from my upright (loud bass and lame middle register). And I did not check the recording levels or anything. My recordings are just to record where I am as a student and to hear what needs improvement :)
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Not as far as I know, I am just lazy and untidy.
That was me before the cats took over the place...I do miss the times when I could just leave things laying around and they would be there intact the next time I needed them. I guess I compensate at work, my office is a disgrace ;D