Piano Forum
Piano Board => Instruments => Topic started by: Bob on January 14, 2005, 04:18:11 AM
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Excluding a 9' concert grand and not one of the really unusual ones. I'm think more Steinway I guess.
What is the best grand piano?
For a regular house, or for a room specifically built for this piano. I'm thinking the 9' grand would require a concert hall? With a concert hall out of the picture, what's the next best thing for a nice large performance space that might exist in a house?
What about for a regular room in a regular house (8' ceiling)?
What about the price range? I'm guessing something like I'm describing would have to be at least $20,000 but not more than $100,000? I've heard the 9' Steinways are around $100,000.
Hope that makes sense. Thanks for any ideas you can offer. Or any books you know about this type of piano buying.
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Steinway Model D
Steinway Moldel NY-Hamburg
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Best grand piano in a home to do what? ;)
My personal vote goes to Fazioli F-228, for me to enjoy making music playing the piano. The F-228 would go closer to the $100k mark than the $20k mark -- too bad my bank account doesn't really have that kind of voting power. :(
Bob, since you've been to the other side, may be I can share this link with you... it's sort of a summary of what I think of the various pianos I tried out while shopping to buy one for myself (strictly personal opinion and very subjective, so don't take it too seriously): LINK HERE (https://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/9565.html).
(And yes, it's for my "home use," with a "regular" living room and 8 ft ceiling in mind. ;) )
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Excluding 9' grands,, I'd go with the Steinway 'B' -- fairly priced,, sounds/looks beautiful. Perfect for home, fits just right,, not too big, and not too small. 9 out of 10 concert pianist go with Steinway,, if its good for them,, it will be good for you...
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Excluding 9' grands,, I'd go with the Steinway 'B' -- fairly priced,, sounds/looks beautiful. Perfect for home, fits just right,, not too big, and not too small. 9 out of 10 concert pianist go with Steinway,, if its good for them,, it will be good for you...
Hilarious! You have been brainwashed by the advertising industry, or you work for Steinway...
Your 9 out of 10 statistics is absolutely wrong! Even if it was right, saying that 9 out of 10 of pianists go with Steinway, therefore it's good for you is as valid as saying 9 out of 10 computer users use MS Windows or 9 out of 10 people eat at MacDonalds, therefore it is good for you.
Actually, I thought the same when I was young, still easily impressionable and inexperienced. To be very provocative: I would say, those who believe that Steinway makes the "best" pianos has never seen a really good one. I have seen a few well-regulated Steinways, but once I played on a high-end Bosendorfer, it was clear to me that I would never touch a Steinway again if I didn't have to. Don't get me wrong, Steinway can make good pianos, or let's say, pianos that appeal to some people, but finding a good Steinway is a quest in itself. To use another statistics, only 1 out of 10 Steinways is worth considering (because of the current affairs of quality control), so plan on travelling a lot before you shell out $100K.
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Hilarious! You have been brainwashed by the advertising industry, or you work for Steinway...
Your 9 out of 10 statistics is absolutely wrong!
"Not surprisingly, Steinway remains the choice of 9 out of 10 concert artists."
see for yourself : https://www.steinway.com/steinway/crown_jewel_collection.shtml
I dont think Steinway needs to falsify this. They will not risk ruining their reputation by making fictitious statements. Its like 'McDonald's' Billion served ad,, is that fake? its all over McDonalds website..
as far as.................
Even if it was right, saying that 9 out of 10 of pianists go with Steinway, therefore it's good for you is as valid as saying 9 out of 10 computer users use MS Windows
you're pretty close on that too....
Actually, I thought the same when I was young, still easily impressionable and inexperienced. To be very provocative: I would say, those who believe that Steinway makes the "best" pianos has never seen a really good one. I have seen a few well-regulated Steinways, but once I played on a high-end Bosendorfer, it was clear to me that I would never touch a Steinway again if I didn't have to. Don't get me wrong, Steinway can make good pianos, or let's say, pianos that appeal to some people, but finding a good Steinway is a quest in itself.
I never said Steinway is the best or anything (you're putting words in my mouth),, I just said its perferred by classical pianists to use in their concerts. Thats why I said "if its good for them, it will be good for you",, thats just a pitch,,in other words: "you cannot go wrong" and thats a fact. Also when I go to concerts here at the hollywood bowl (and i've gone to many),, its always a Steinway, never a bose, yam, kawai, faz, etc ,, when you watch the ARTs channel,, all the classical pieces are played on Steinways, rarely something else. -- there shouldn't be any argument...
I myself perfer Bosendorfer over Steinway,, however,, thats another story...
only 1 out of 10 Steinways is worth considering (because of the current affairs of quality control), so plan on travelling a lot before you shell out $100K.
Thats where 'Authorized' Dealers come it. ;) other than that,, you're right,,
-as
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"Not surprisingly, Steinway remains the choice of 9 out of 10 concert artists."
see for yourself : https://www.steinway.com/steinway/crown_jewel_collection.shtml
I dont think Steinway needs to falsify this. Its like 'McDonald's' Billion served ad,, is that fake? its all over McDonalds website..
In the US, one can pretty much claim whatever one wants in an advertisement as long as it doesn't slander a competing brand. 99.9% of such claims are false. There is no reason to believe that Steinways claim is right, and every reason to believe that it is wrong.
I never said Steinway is the best or anything (you're putting words in my mouth),, I just said its perferred by classical pianists to use in their concerts.
Well, since the original question asked for the "best" grand, and you recommended Steinways, I concluded that you thought it's the best. BTW, the appendix "in their concerts", which you did not use in your original post, is very important and makes a huge difference (see below).
Thats why I said "if its good for them, it will be good for you",, thats just a pitch,,in other words: "you cannot go wrong" and thats a fact. Also when I go to concerts here at the hollywood bowl (and i've gone to many),, its always a Steinway, never a bose, yam, kawai, faz, etc ,, when you watch the ARTs channel,, all the classical pieces are played on Steinways, rarely something else. -- there shouldn't be any argument...
Concert pianists, most anyway, play on whatever the venue offers. Steinway has a stronghold because they were aggressivley putting Steinways wherever they could. This is the reason why you find Steinways on most stages. It is definitely not because they are "better" than other brands. It's like saying "I see Lang Lang everywhere. He must be the best pianist." ;D ;D
If one buys a piano for oneself, one has the choice to - well - make a choice. To purchase a piano, because others have done so as well is simply ludicrous. One should go with whatever turns out to be the personal preference.
I just don't like the assertion that Steinway is superior because you see it on every stage.
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There is only one way to find out... get out there and play as many as you can! When you find one you fall in love with, buy it! What's right for one person is not for another, and there is great variation in the same model of individual instruments. Advertising is pure bull; they can say pretty much what they want, and know just how far they can push the bull and keep it legal.
Pianos are as individual as people.
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Petrof all the way for me!
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Excluding 9' grands,, I'd go with the Steinway 'B' -- fairly priced,, sounds/looks beautiful. Perfect for home, fits just right,, not too big, and not too small. 9 out of 10 concert pianist go with Steinway,, if its good for them,, it will be good for you...
I guess I would argue that Steinway B's are fairly priced. When I was shopping they wanted more money for a B than I paid for my 7 foot Fazioli! And everybody thinks THOSE are expensive! Shop aroiund, is all I can say!
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"Not surprisingly, Steinway remains the choice of 9 out of 10 concert artists."
see for yourself : https://www.steinway.com/steinway/crown_jewel_collection.shtml
"A Steinway is an instrument of rare quality indeed."
Yes, it´s quality is really strange. ;D
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Hilarious! You have been brainwashed by the advertising industry, or you work for Steinway...
Your 9 out of 10 statistics is absolutely wrong! Even if it was right, saying that 9 out of 10 of pianists go with Steinway, therefore it's good for you is as valid as saying 9 out of 10 computer users use MS Windows or 9 out of 10 people eat at MacDonalds, therefore it is good for you.
Actually, I thought the same when I was young, still easily impressionable and inexperienced. To be very provocative: I would say, those who believe that Steinway makes the "best" pianos has never seen a really good one. I have seen a few well-regulated Steinways, but once I played on a high-end Bosendorfer, it was clear to me that I would never touch a Steinway again if I didn't have to. Don't get me wrong, Steinway can make good pianos, or let's say, pianos that appeal to some people, but finding a good Steinway is a quest in itself. To use another statistics, only 1 out of 10 Steinways is worth considering (because of the current affairs of quality control), so plan on travelling a lot before you shell out $100K.
Would you be one of those people that would choose to go to the Juilliard School over Manhattan School of Music?
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Would you be one of those people that would choose to go to the Juilliard School over Manhattan School of Music?
I'm not sure what you are getting at.
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I would also agree that Steinways are much overrated, and that the "9/10 prefer Steinway" statistic comes from the fact that people who run concert venues don't really know much about pianos. Steinway is the only piano that non-pianists "know" is a good brand (and for many, it's the only brand they know besides Yamaha), so when a piano is ordered for a concert hall, it tends to be a Steinway. I go to the University of Maryland, which is a "Steinway school" - on campus, I've seen four non-Steinway pianos, two of which aren't even in the school of music. The concert halls all have Steinways, and the practice rooms mostly have Steinways (there are two Baldwins). This has led me to the conclusion that I would prefer nearly any model of piano over a Steinway. The "best" Steinways are decent, but it seems that they don't bother putting any character into anything under 7 feet. Baby grand Steinways are some of the worst pianos I've encountered, not only at the University, but at different piano stores and in people's homes. That artists like Rachmaninoff and Horowitz preferred Steinway is also a moot point - that was many, many years ago, and the company has sadly become much worse since then.
Annnnnyway, I do have a piano to recommend. https://www.steingraeber.de/ - Steingraeber and Sohne is the best piano manufacturer in the world, in my very own humble opinion. :) I've never played on a full-size (>100,000 dollars) Steingraeber, but their 6'9" model is perfect for a house. It's "made for chamber music" which means that you never get terribly bright, harsh sounds out of the instrument, though you can certainly play very loudly on it. The company only makes ~100 pianos a year, so even the smaller models are rather expensive (roughly 75,000 for the 6'9"), but I'd pay three times as much for such an instrument. It is a rather obscure model, but if you manage to find one, you have to try it out. You won't be disappoitned.
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An excellent recommendation. I have a Steingraeber upright, number 49,000 and something, dating I think to 1996. Compare that to the c. 600,000 pianos Steinway has made in the same time. I must confess that I've never had a go on a grand Steingraeber, but I'd quite like a go. I'm not sure what the prices of their grands are like, but Steingraeber's uprights really make Steinway's uprights seem exceptionally poor value. In fact, I really feel that, if for no other reason, the prices that are asked for Steinway pianos ought to compel people to look at the competition a bit more than they do.
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Here is my short list, in no particular order:
Steingraeber 205,
Overs 225,
Bluthner 230.
I have heard but not played Fazioli and I would not put it in this class, but rather but excellent second tier pianos, including Mason & Hamlin BB and Bechsteins B and C. I have heard good references from people I trust about Seiler 208, but I have not played one yet.
Very much out of my list are the likes of Bosendorfer, Steinway, Baldwin and Yamaha, which I find simply inferior. (Note, you excluded the 9 footers. Yamaha and Baldwin make excellent pianos in that size, but the smaller ones simply won't do).
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The one you can *afford*. .. .& that sounds the best to *you*.
Best wishes.
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If you can afford one (upright or grand) Bosendorfer is by far a better sound and sturdy action in my opinion than any Steinway. Ive performed on quite a few Steinways (B,C and D), but I love the Bosendorfer. Good pianos are German in my opinion (and no Im not German!). You also get and extra note (bottom A ) on the Bosendorfer which is essential for one Ravel piece (jeu d'eux I think?). Andras Schiff takes his around with him.
If you cant afford one then Bluthner are quite good, Yamaha G2, Challen, Chappel (maybe) and others I cant remember. Stay away from Kemble!! ::)
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oh and Bechstien ;)
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If you can afford one (upright or grand) Bosendorfer is by far a better sound and sturdy action in my opinion than any Steinway. Ive performed on quite a few Steinways (B,C and D), but I love the Bosendorfer. Good pianos are German in my opinion (and no Im not German!). You also get and extra note (bottom A ) on the Bosendorfer which is essential for one Ravel piece (jeu d'eux I think?). Andras Schiff takes his around with him.
Tsk, tsk, tsk - Bösendorfer is Austrian! Big difference!
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SDL - only the larger models have the extra notes. Jeux d'eau begs for the g# below the bottom A, although I believe Ravel wrote in the A (he probably composed it on his adorable Pleyel). At any rate, I have 3 editions of jeux d'eau and they all show the A. (measure 49). If I had a Bosendorfer Imperial, I'd learn jeux d'eau just to give that g# a try!!!
iumonito - just curious, why don't you like the Bosendorfer?
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SDL - only the larger models have the extra notes. Jeux d'eau begs for the g# below the bottom A, although I believe Ravel wrote in the A (he probably composed it on his adorable Pleyel). At any rate, I have 3 editions of jeux d'eau and they all show the A. (measure 49). If I had a Bosendorfer Imperial, I'd learn jeux d'eau just to give that g# a try!!!
iumonito - just curious, why don't you like the Bosendorfer?
Because the plate is barely attached to the rim, I find the instrument does not really resonate. This would explain why these humongous pianos sound like a clavichord. Ever tried to play Prokofiev or Bartok in one of these? Asco. They are wimpy.
Plus, they are not very durable. I have found that an unrebuilt Bosendorfer older than 10 years is rarely in playable condition.
I take a Bechstein or a Bluthner (alas, so different from each other) over the Bose any day.
If you want extra notes, get a Stuart and Sons. ;)
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More re Jeux d'eau and the g#:
I think Bosendorfer added the extra notes at Busoni's suggestion around 1900. That was shortly before Ravel wrote Jeux d'eax (1905?). Who knows if he was even aware of the innovation?
At any rate, If I had one of the Bosie's with the extra bass notes, I'd still learn Jeux d'eax just to use that g# ;)
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Because the plate is barely attached to the rim, I find the instrument does not really resonate. This would explain why these humongous pianos sound like a clavichord. Ever tried to play Prokofiev or Bartok in one of these? Asco. They are wimpy.
Haha - I guess wimpiness to one man's ear is a subtle, mellow, and lyrical sound to another! And I've yet to find anything that matches the feel of the Bosendorfer.
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jonny k in nyc,
Don't have Jeux D'eau's sheet music in front of me... but does it need the lowest A besides that one note you think should be a G#? If it doesn't, just tune the last note to G#. Or if it does need the A but not the A#, than tune that into a G# instead. Or the B, or the C... you get the idea. ;)
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Ax - no, the only instance of bottom A is as a substitute for the G#. So one could tune it down a half step.
Of course I'd rather have an Imperial. ;)
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How about Estonia? I'm thinking to buy a baby grand of my own, but can't make up my mind. I personally have practiced on Estonia and loved its warm and airy sound (airy? maybe not the best way to describe that sound.. but... i can't think of other words... :-X) and the feel it gives when you press down they keys. Then there's Steinway. It's more sensitive responding to what I do on it -I really like that,-something Estonia just can't do, but then I don't usually like the crisp sound Steinway gives. So I can't make the decision... Any thoughts? Thanks~
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I would take the Estonia over the Steinway. Dollar for dollar you get much more piano with the Estonia, and I hear that well preped they can be really nice. Are you thinking 168 or 190? Truly, I don't agree there are things you can do on an Steinway and not on an Estonia (except for becoming very poor).
Although I played Estonias in New York a few months ago and was unimpressed, significantly the shop had brand new Mason & Hamlins (what a great piano, have you considered those?) and they did not have them playing at their full potential either.
Estonias appear to be very well built (hard wood, good scale, things well fitted) and just need a little love in the voicing and a bit of tweaking here and there to turn out very nice. I am not sure I can say the same of Steinways (which get you so far behind with the money that you have nothing left for, for example, a Stanwood job).
Sadly, I don't think Estonia makes my size (I like my pianos around 205 to 230 cm). I am planning on checking out some Estonias here in Maryland anyway, which I expect to be in much better shape than the ones in New York. I will keep you posted.
Good luck with the shopping.
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estonias, august forsters, both offer excellent quality for a reasonable price. Other exceptional brands that you can get cheaper than Steinway are: bluthner, bechstein, fazioli, grotrian, steingraeber. Steinway, frankly, isn't making very good pianos lately. They are riding on the coattails of their bygone reputation. Their model D's may very well still be excellent, as that's their only claim to fame. I wouldn't buy a B or smaller right now for almost any price. They sound muffled and "fuzzy". (The dealer will tell you it's "complex" and needs to be properly broken in (over 5 years! ) and then voiced - a bunch of crap in my book). The pianos mentioned above sound and play beautifully right out of the box. No excuses.
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Not reading anything in this topic but the question itself, i would say bosendoerfer (of course, that is if you can afford one!), august forster, and Schimmle (personal fav).
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I would take the Estonia over the Steinway. Dollar for dollar you get much more piano with the Estonia, and I hear that well preped they can be really nice. Are you thinking 168 or 190? Truly, I don't agree there are things you can do on an Steinway and not on an Estonia (except for becoming very poor).
Although I played Estonias in New York a few months ago and was unimpressed, significantly the shop had brand new Mason & Hamlins (what a great piano, have you considered those?) and they did not have them playing at their full potential either.
Estonias appear to be very well built (hard wood, good scale, things well fitted) and just need a little love in the voicing and a bit of tweaking here and there to turn out very nice. I am not sure I can say the same of Steinways (which get you so far behind with the money that you have nothing left for, for example, a Stanwood job).
Sadly, I don't think Estonia makes my size (I like my pianos around 205 to 230 cm). I am planning on checking out some Estonias here in Maryland anyway, which I expect to be in much better shape than the ones in New York. I will keep you posted.
Good luck with the shopping.
Thanks! Now I'm 80% inclined to Estonia... Please do keep me posted.
I guess that as I said the feeling of pressing down keys of Estonia is different- I like that specific feeling - sorry, really don't know how to descrive that, but it's also harder to press down for me, so relatively my technique level allows me to do less on that piano... But... afterall, i like the sound it produces =)
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This is a loaded question. Many aspects need to be considered. For example, size of the piano and the room it is to be located. Some sizes of certain brands are considered superior over others, sometimes a smaller one may be better than a bigger one with respect to balance of scale. Also the type of music one prefers to play may influence personal preference of tone and action. Bosendorfers, although exquisite in many respects, is not as versatile as other makes. It is made in the Viennese tradition, rather than English, and by comparison its bass is not as full and powerful as other grands. It is great with Eighteenth Century music!
Taking everything in consideration thought I would think the top pianos in the world are Fazioli, Hamburg
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Most people agree that the piece begs for a G# for an A. I personally say that it doesn't make any bit of a difference. If you play to one person the lowest A and another the Bb, most of them would most likely claim they heard the same note. Let's be honest here, they sound almost exactly alike. Getting the G# there would just make it a little bit more harmonically pleasing, but I believe it's there just because it gets an extra bang sound, and displaces the harmony around a little, creating some tumult in the "wavy" sound of the work.
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Interesting thread.. fascinating how everyone has different reasons for liking the different pianos. When I was shopping around for a piano to buy, it came down to the Boston made by Steinway, and a Petrof. I went with a 6'4" Petrof because it has the Renner action found in Steinways and other superior brands. I really did not like the Boston and found it to be rather cheap in quality and have a very hollow tone.
My personal favorite is a Bosendorfer...my church owns a concert grand with the extra bass notes, and I just love to play on it. I would like to play on a Fazioli some time, as I've heard more and more that those are simply divine pianos.
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...Boston made by Steinway...
Boston--made by Kawai for Steinway, marketed by Steinway.
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I think Steinway D (Hamburg) definitely. It's sound and possibilities are incredible.
I think many pianists don't like playing on Steinways, because they're to perfect
They won't exuse you anything. Just perfect.
I don't like Kawais - they are for weak pianists, who likes playning in as easy way as it's possible.
Bechsteins are also gut, but sometimes they are to light.
PS - I love Steinways. And I don't have anything incommom with this company.
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I think Steinway D (Hamburg) definitely. It's sound and possibilities are incredible.
I think many pianists don't like playing on Steinways, because they're to perfect
They won't exuse you anything. Just perfect.
I don't like Kawais - they are for weak pianists, who likes playning in as easy way as it's possible.
Bechsteins are also gut, but sometimes they are to light.
PS - I love Steinways. And I don't have anything incommom with this company.
Hi Kapelli,
Welcome to the forum. I see you have played Kawai and Bechstein. I wonder whether you have ever had a chance to play a good piano. For example, a Fazioli, Steingraeber or a Mason & Hamlin. Of course I don't mean the uprights or the smaller grand, but pianos bigger than 6 feet?
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Hi Kapelli,
Welcome to the forum.
THX :)
I see you have played Kawai and Bechstein. I wonder whether you have ever had a chance to play a good piano. For example, a Fazioli, Steingraeber or a Mason & Hamlin. Of course I don't mean the uprights or the smaller grand, but pianos bigger than 6 feet?
Unfortunately I've never been playing on this pianos. I live in Poland,
and from this companies I only know the Italian Fazioli.
From big pianos - except Steinway, Kawai and Bechtein I've playing on Grotrian-Steinweg, which are also good pianos.
And Petrod (wery powerful and loud, but the Petrofs' keyboard is too heavy for me).
But
In fact In this topic we shouldn't arguing does the X or Y piano is better, but only writing what we like.
I think, that many depend on what we are expecting from piano, what sound we like and what's our style of playing.
And alywas there will be people who likes from different reasons diffrent pianos, and it will never change.
Even Chopin and Liszt the most liked diffrent pianos :)))))))))))))
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I like the bigger Kawais. They almost play themselves. The smaller ones can be a bit too muffled imo, but they're great for accompaniment (that's hard to spell - maybe that's why we're calling it collaboration these days).
My favourite piano is probably a well-preserved, older, Hamburg Steinway. The newer ones are extremely variable, in my experience. I've never had the chance of trying some of the more exotic makes mentioned in this thread - I guess I need to get out more!
Ian
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Hilarious! You have been brainwashed by the advertising industry, or you work for Steinway...
Your 9 out of 10 statistics is absolutely wrong! Even if it was right, saying that 9 out of 10 of pianists go with Steinway, therefore it's good for you is as valid as saying 9 out of 10 computer users use MS Windows or 9 out of 10 people eat at MacDonalds, therefore it is good for you.
Actually, I thought the same when I was young, still easily impressionable and inexperienced. To be very provocative: I would say, those who believe that Steinway makes the "best" pianos has never seen a really good one. I have seen a few well-regulated Steinways, but once I played on a high-end Bosendorfer, it was clear to me that I would never touch a Steinway again if I didn't have to. Don't get me wrong, Steinway can make good pianos, or let's say, pianos that appeal to some people, but finding a good Steinway is a quest in itself. To use another statistics, only 1 out of 10 Steinways is worth considering (because of the current affairs of quality control), so plan on travelling a lot before you shell out $100K.
I've heard other people say Bosendorfers are good too. I'd like to play on one someday.
In regards to Steinway- yes, it would be wise to find one pre-1972, as I've also heard that their quality control went downhill around this time, at least stateside. I think they were bought out by another company.
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Hey,
Just wondering what you guys think of the Stuart and Sons pianos. I haven't played that many grands of this calibre in my time. The Yamaha C5 is the piano I play (at school) which has a nice action and sound (does lose some clarity out of the middle 2 octs).
Anyway, there is no substitute for playing the pianos discussed here. When forking out this much, you need to be sure that you're made the right choice.
Popdog.
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The newer [Steinways] are extremely variable, in my experience.
In regards to Steinway- yes, it would be wise to find one pre-1972, as I've also heard that their quality control went downhill around this time, at least stateside. I think they were bought out by another company.
The problem with older Steinways is the same as with all used piano -- the condition varies in a very wide range, a lot of it depends on how the pianos have been maintained in the last 10, 20, 30 years. I think if you put 10 brand new Steinways and 10 used (say, pre-1972) Steinways, you'll fine that most of the new ones will play better than most of the new ones. Sure, there are horror stories about Teflon bushing and cracked soundboards and the "CBS ownership" ... but the brand new ones (say, 2000 and after) are quite decent. Except for a recently rebuilt, 100-year old Hamburg Stenway D, the best half dozen or so Steinway B's that I've played were brand new, all made in this new millenium. So I see no reason to restrict oneself to "old" Steinways except to save money. Play them all, new and used, and then decide. :)
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I will vote with Axtremus and Motrax on this one. I have a Fazioli 212 and love it. At the same time I considered a Steingraeber 6'9" and went with the Faz because I liked the extra "oomph" of the sound. Purely personal preference. Without question those were the two finest pianos I played (except the 228 of course, which I couldn't "quite" afford - yet!). Their actions and sounds were perfectly even all the way up the keyboard. A trait not to be found on any other piano I played.,
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What exactly is Renner action?
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I recently traded my Steinway in for a Baldwin F. I have owned a BOUSY and traded that for an Ibach. Traded that for the Steinway and in all I have never played a more impressive instrument in my life. The depth of the bass as well as the clarity of each treble note wins hands down and complete. I am told this is one of the brand new Baldwins off the assembly in Arkansas so maybe that makes a diference but, anyway that is my opinion.
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dhb,
First, congratulations on your new piano! :)
Would your screen name "dhb" stands for "D. H. Baldwin" ?
How big (how long) is the "Baldwin F" ? I don't exactly see a model "F" listed on Baldwin's website. I've played a rather impressive SF-10 (one that was built by the old Baldwin, before Gibson took over the Baldwin brand name and other assets), and I do see SF-10 listed on the Baldwin web site, just no plain model "F" by itself, so I am curious.
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first name is Dwight............but, not Hamilton Baldwin. Never put the two together but, thanks for pointing that out. If it was I would still own great granddads business. None the less.........yes I guess it would be an sf-10 and thanks for the congrats......quite proud
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for me i live in singapore so its damn hard to actually get to know alot of piano brands from where i'm at. but here there're alot of yamaha and kawai. most grands here are yamaha
there's one steinway retailer here, but no bosendorfer, so that's why its not that popular. i've seen only two bosendorfers here, played both, and they're both quite nice. the only thing is the extra black keys annoy me cuz they distract me hahaha but i guess it'd take a bit of getting used to.
the new conservatoire here got ALL their pianos from steinway (steinway was quite happy with that apparently ... big deal hahaha) but i haven't played any of theirs.
when i was in sydney australia, their town hall owns a concert fazioli. played prokofiev 1st concerto, and beethoven first concerto on it. Brilliant sound. and they maintained it quite well too.
Ah well me and my friend used to dream of buying a warehouse, and getting all the best grand pianos into one place, and play them everyday.:D
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What exactly is Renner action?
Renner is a brand. The make, to put it simply, piano parts. The make hammers which in the opinion of some are the best (Renner Blue), and they fabricate a variety of actions (that is, the thing comprising from the key to the hammer, which you play to hit the strings) for quite many different pianos.
It is very common to use Renner actions and parts when rebuilding pianos, because they tend to be very consistent and well built. Judging from what I have played, for example, Steinway pianos with Renner actions and hammers sound much much much better than original NY Steinway actions and hammers, and somewhat better than Hamburg same.
Renner provides the actions, for example for Bluthner, Irmler, Estonia and I believe make custom actions for Mason & Hamlin (I may be wrong about that one) and Stuart & Sons. Keith, if you are out there, does Maestoso have Renner action and Renner blue hammers?
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Renner is a top manufacturer of hammers, top actions, action parts, felts, and tools. They make many hammer styles, and action parts (grades of wood and types of felt ), per the manufacturers specifications. The Premium Blue is a style sold by Renner USA for the rebuilding of vintage american pianos. Some manufacturers such as Estonia and Mason & Hamlin use this grade of hammer in the manufacture of their pianos. While the parts consistency is very good, , it is how the parts are installed and regulated by the manufacturer that is the key difference. In other words, Renner makes different grades of actions/parts to the manufacturers specs. In other words, the quality of parts requested by Bechstein will be of a much higher quality/geometry than the Renner action parts requested by Samick.
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Why does it seem that so many people here don't like Steinways? They are overhyped, but they are quite good.
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They are fine after you rectify any voicing and regulation problems. They just don't come from the factory prepped to the same standards that most European pianos do. Usually 2-3 days prep on a new Steinway will make it, "all that it can be".
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...even though spending the same amount of time on a Bechstein, Bluthner or Bosendorfer will usually still result in a superior instrument. In these better pianos you would spend your time tweeking higher level details, rather than fixing the obvious and inexcusable.
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PETROF other than a steinway. A petrof is considered to be the best grand you can get. I have one only A 5-footer and something but it is incredible. Mine is the smallest size. Definately look into the petrof each is hand made and are an absolute work of art. Ours was 18 000 CND
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While Petrof is considered a good piano, it's hardly the best out there. It is also not entirely hand made. The Petrof factory employs as much precision machinery in the production of their pianos as does essentially every other Tier one piano maker. Many would consider the likes of such makers as Fazioli, Bechstein, Blüthner, Bösendorfer, and Hamburg Steinway, etc as superior to Petrof in every facet.
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Im not so kean on the new steinways they feel 'cheap' and they are NOT! Yamaha handcrafted are getting very good now and are vastly cheaper than steinway for same size!! Fazioli are to die for I love them but in UK they are way too expensive!! Bosendorfer are good if you can get used to the feel of the touch (the ones ive come across really havent been so well regulated) bujt again they are horrendously expensive. I agree with Donjaun AGAIN! that Petrof are THE best piano you can get for the money - they produce sound quality equal to the very best and if you get a good technition the action isnt half bad either and they are cheaper than the famous German and Italian models. Bechstein are OK very good sound although again in the new instruments theyve lost something!! All the 'prestige' names are not as good as they used to be in terms of quallity im afraid theyve all become rather too standard!
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Be very clear there are two sorts of Steinways: the ones made in New York and the ones made in Hamburg. It is held by some that the quality control procedures on the NYC ones have slipped in the last few years; others do not agree.
Regardless, every individual piano of whatever type is different and should be judged solely on its particular merits.
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New Hamburg D's nearly always have a beautiful tone in my experience, and one of them in Steinway Hall a couple of weeks ago was probably the second nicest piano I've ever tried. They usually have four in to try but only had two (and only one model B that had a 'sticky' action).
I now feel pianos depend a lot on the last tech that has worked on them.
I've seen a small Waldstein that had been purposefully voiced to sound like a Bosendorfer and it did. Who makes Waldstein?
The same tech (Geoffrey Sapsford) had worked on a Stuart 290 for 5 days and that was the 'best' piano I've ever played.
Sub 9' I like the Bluthner and Stuart 7-footers.
I guess this shows my taste, favouring them over Bechstein or Schimmel, both great pianos.
If 'best' means getting the most fun out of a piano, I'd quite like a Bosendorfer Imperial recording-player-piano.
Andy
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No question, the Steinway is a good buy, the quality is high, the stability is high. The Bösendorfer is more rarely to find, may be better, you mnust however yourself notice a difference, can you? the new Bösendorfer may be of lower quality since Bösendorfer is almost collapsing from producing 2000/ year they now produce not more than 200/year. No question that if you get a good Bösendorfer you can make a good deal. Nobody ofall answers talked about the sound. The sound how you like your instruments in your hands is the most important thing. A very good violine has the very good sound in your hand thats it. The come quality, you would like y´to have an instrument of stable quality. I heard that Yamaha grand pianos decrease after 15 year in quality. Steinways even old ones almost 100 year still are of high quality if they were not mistreated, and thats really something. I had a german Grotian Steinweg grand piano from Braunschweig which was clearly inferior to the Steinway A grand piano from 1919 which I have now. My piano technician tells me that the construction of the Steinway is superoir. It is so stable that you have hardly to tune it once a year. I am an amateur but love my grand piano and play every day on it.
Prices in Europe are by far lower than in the States. A brand new Steinway A costs 60000, a used between 1-20000 $. The largest Steinway D kosts 100000$ brand new, but who needs a so big one: The concert halls yes, but hardly at home. Lokking at prices you can notice that the prices for a used Steinway go up and not down, like housing, not like used cars. So the money is well invested!
Roland in Stockholm Sweden
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RMS, you need to check your info before you post. Bosendorfer has never in their history made more than 550 pianos per year, let alone 2,000. The company is a strong financially as they have ever been. Now owned by the third largest bank in Austria, BAWAG, they continue to prosper with a lot of money going into R&D and have produced 4 new grand piano models over the last decade.
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"Prices in Europe are by far lower than in the States"
RMS, I'd be interested to see some comparisons from you to justify this statement.
Regarding new Steinway, I believe the following figures are approximately correct
A Hamburg D costs about £90000
A New York D costs about $100000 ($57000 cheaper)
A Hamburg K costs £22000 ($38000)
A New York K costs about $20000 less if I remember right.
Andy
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There were too many posts, so I haven't read. Steinway is of course good. Also good are Bosendorfer and a relative newbie, Fazioli. Really depends on your taste in sound and touch. These are all great pianos. Oh, and one more - Shigeru Kawai. Steinway level of Kawai.
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Best grand piano in a home to do what? ;)
My personal vote goes to Fazioli F-228, for me to enjoy making music playing the piano. The F-228 would go closer to the $100k mark than the $20k mark -- too bad my bank account doesn't really have that kind of voting power. :(
Bob, since you've been to the other side, may be I can share this link with you... it's sort of a summary of what I think of the various pianos I tried out while shopping to buy one for myself (strictly personal opinion and very subjective, so don't take it too seriously): LINK HERE (https://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/9565.html).
(And yes, it's for my "home use," with a "regular" living room and 8 ft ceiling in mind. ;) )
Yes, Fazioli's are simply wonderful pianos. I have a 212 myself (more my dad :P) and it's a beaut to play on, and was only around £30-£40,000. Fazioli definately have the upper hand in quality, as each piano is hand made and takes a couple of years. Quite different sound from the automatic batch-processed Steinways.
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I must agree about Bluthner - I play on a 6' which is hard to fault at least in a domestic setting. the tone is pure and clean, mellow but not muddied even in the bass. The touch is subtle enough for the finest nuances; also the sustain is unbeleivable. Not much experience with playing steinway, but i wouldn't be tempted to swap. for what its worth. :)
alex
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O.K., first a little bit of background, I am a 33 year old pianist, I have been playing for 25 years. After Conservatory I taught for a few years, but it wasn't for me.
I had always been interested in piano technology, watching my own technician/tuner over the years. So I went back to school to become a technician.
The first thing I learned is that most pianists, even great ones, know very little about the actual workings of the piano. The art of tuning, regulating and voicing pianos is completely and utterly separate from the art of being a pianist. A good analogy is driving, you can be a great driver without knowing the first thing about how a car works. It is simply unnecessary. It is the same with the piano, you do not have to know anything about how it works to play it.
But to know whether Piano A is "better" than Piano B, you must understand and examine the workings of the piano.
To argue that one piano is better than another because it "sounds" better, is akin to saying that one car is better than another because of it's color.
The car's color can be easily changed, and a piano's sound can easily be changed.
The true measures of what makes one piano superior to another would take too long to explain (it takes years of training to become a piano technician), but in a very general sense, the more "hands on" (i.e. hand made) the construction, the better the piano. And as a consequence of this hands on construction, no two Steinway B's are exactly alike, or Steinway D's, or Mason & Hamlin BB's, or Fazioli Concert Grands etc. etc.
Whereas other pianos, that are made almost entirely by machine, are virtual carbon copies of one another.
So you see, in the broadest sense, there are two levels. Pianos that are mostly hand made, (superior), and pianos that are mostly machine made, (inferior).
But because of the inherent individuality of the superior pianos you cannot say "a Bösendorfer Concert Grand is better than a Steinway Concert Grand." Some may be, some may not.
In the end the best advice is to always have a qualified technician look at any piano you are thinking of buying. Usually a verbal appraisal will cost you less than $150.00. And it is money very well spent.
;)
Lex