Piano Forum
Piano Board => Performance => Topic started by: doowlehc on March 28, 2005, 08:19:02 PM
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Hi want to see if anyone have smiliar experience:
- I am unable to listen objectively to my own playing while I am playing. When I record and listen back, I realize I sound different from what I intended. When I play I thought I was playing as I intended, but turns out very different if I listen to my own recording. Is there any way I can listen to myself when I am playing?
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Hi want to see if anyone have smiliar experience:
- I am unable to listen objectively to my own playing while I am playing. When I record and listen back, I realize I sound different from what I intended. When I play I thought I was playing as I intended, but turns out very different if I listen to my own recording. Is there any way I can listen to myself when I am playing?
Continually record your practice sessions. That way you will have an objective look at your playing.
boliver
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Yeah, I know what you mean. As I get older, the two are getting closer, but there are still always surprises. The Walter Gieseking/Karl Leimer "Piano Technique" book states that really accurate self-hearing is the most important premise for their method or philosophy of music study, and it gives specific thoughts on how to improve it. I wish I'd started thinking about this a lot sooner, but it's never too late to get better.
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Yeah, I know what you mean. As I get older, the two are getting closer, but there are still always surprises. The Walter Gieseking/Karl Leimer "Piano Technique" book states that really accurate self-hearing is the most important premise for their method or philosophy of music study, and it gives specific thoughts on how to improve it. I wish I'd started thinking about this a lot sooner, but it's never too late to get better.
unless you are dead. which I hope you aren't because then that would be creepy and prove me wrong in a way.
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How different does you playing sound than what you expected? Are there unexpected accents, changes in tempo etc?
If not, then how are you recording yourself? Record just a few notes and chords, say ranging from soft to loud and then listen to the recording. Play something simple that you can easily objectively listen to. Adjust the postion of the recording device until the playback is as close as possible to what you heard yourself play.
Inferior recording equipment or placement of equipment could be messing with you.
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How different does you playing sound than what you expected? Are there unexpected accents, changes in tempo etc?
If not, then how are you recording yourself? Record just a few notes and chords, say ranging from soft to loud and then listen to the recording. Play something simple that you can easily objectively listen to. Adjust the postion of the recording device until the playback is as close as possible to what you heard yourself play.
Inferior recording equipment or placement of equipment could be messing with you.
An example: I am playing Chopin's Scherzo #1 in B-.... the middle section, when I listen to what I played, I was shocked that the middle section actaully is slower than I thought it was when I played it....
and sometimes when I play I may accidentaly played something wrong - like wrong notes, or accented where I did not intend to, but it turns out I cannot hear it at all in the recording
or when I think I play not too bad in a passage, and when I listen to it I was amzed how good it sound - I actaully learned something new from listening to my recording.
So this means WHen I play I was not listening to myself enough - because when I record and listen back, it is as if I am listening to somebody else's playing. I would rate the match between what I intend and what I hear back to around 70%
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A while back I read a book called "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Timothy Gallwey. This book was really big in the 70's and ties in a bit with eastern thinking, etc. I know that many musicians find this book helpful as may you, especially in regards to your questions on this and your other post.
Just a clumsy introduction to the basic idea presented in the book...
The author refers to two separate parts of our conciousness: a "self 1" and "self 2". Self 1 is the inner critic--this refers to any judgements, bad OR good that you may form during your playing. Self 2 is the observer--. Essentially, by allowing this "observer" part to take over you will obtain an all-around awareness--one that you cannot achieve with the inner critic. The gist: self 1 is bad, self 2 is good.
Check this book out--it's a quick read and probably at your library (also, it's cheap if you decide to purchase). It will give you some ideas about practice as well as performing.
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tempo variations are probably the most common stuff on this matter. i know sometimes it happens to me too on stage (i think i played as i worked on it, then i listen the recording and i'm shocked to hear higher tempos). it's not a good thing though.
there are 2 main components of hearing: listening to the sound produced (after-sound) and hearing (anticipating) with your inner ear the sound to come. each of these two is strongly influenced by the other.
as an exercise: play something (anything) in very slow tempo (actually, i have my students do this exercise on satie - gymnopedies, but i guess anything should do it just as well): imagine the first sound, play it, now imagine the 2nd, play it, etc. you should try to imagine the 2nd sound depending on how the 1st actually sounded.
the main difference between how you "thought" you played and how you actually played (the version on the recording) is actually the difference between the work you're playing in your head and the one you're actually playing. post-sound and anticipative listening can help you link these 2 into one "objective" version.
best luck
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An example: I am playing Chopin's Scherzo #1 in B-.... the middle section, when I listen to what I played, I was shocked that the middle section actaully is slower than I thought it was when I played it....
Yes, I certainly know what you mean, I have had that experience before. It is interesting how we percieve time during performance.
When I was younger I always used to play repertoire that was very challenging for me to perform. This resulted in a struggle. A year or so later I could go back to the piece and play it comfortably. When struggling to perform the piece it sounded very fast to me, however once I had it easily under control (one year later) it sounded to be travelling at just a moderate pace. This is despite the fact that the tempo was indentical at all times.
So this means WHen I play I was not listening to myself enough - because when I record and listen back, it is as if I am listening to somebody else's playing. I would rate the match between what I intend and what I hear back to around 70%
Hey 70% is pretty good. It is good to hear that you are working on it - only 30% to go!
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I just realized 1 more thing:
I am playing the Rachmaninoff Etude Tableux Op 39 No 6 in a -
- I tried to play in a comfortable speed, record and listen back.
- then I Tried to play faster (with a bit more effort and struggle), record and listen back
I am shocked! the difference between the 2 is so slight that it is totally not worthwhile to play at that faster speed! however when I played I felt I was playing much faster in the second time.
And yes, they actaully now have a book called 'Inner Game of Music' - great book!. Use the same theories / models as Inner Game of Tennis but applied to Music
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yeah, when this discrepancy narrows down to a nil (or close to it), you don't really need a teacher. best, tds
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A while back I read a book called "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Timothy Gallwey. This book was really big in the 70's and ties in a bit with eastern thinking, etc. I know that many musicians find this book helpful as may you, especially in regards to your questions on this and your other post.
Great book but DON'T BUY IT!!!! ..... Galwey co-wrote a book with a classical musician called 'The Inner Game of Music', it's the same stuff as in the inner game of tennis, but for the musician specifically. Full of musical examples....I highly recommend it. ;)
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Hearing your own playing is an incredible boon to becoming a good performer. In many ways it will prevent you from becoming a bad one, because you will always hear yourself. My teachers have always asked, "can you hear yourself play?" and I respond "yes" and they say, "that's good, keep it that way."
Sometimes, however, when I play, I will lose sight of how it sounds, especially if I am focused on something technical. To me, how the piano sounds is key, and your technique can improve if the sound improves or vice versa - it depends on where talent lies. If you cannot hear yourself play, I would suggest playing a very slow, simple piece, and focusing on the sound, for practice. Then try applying your concentration to the harder stuff. What the other guys said about recording holds true as well.