Piano Forum
Piano Board => Performance => Topic started by: Glyptodont on May 03, 2005, 02:28:40 PM
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My hands are large enough to do 10ths.
It is not unusual when I am playing something, if it is a 10th chord but is marked as a roll, I just play it as a chord. I will only do this when a roll is just standing by itself and when it appears to me to just be the editor's effort to help people who can't span a 10th.
Am I okay to do this? Or if it is marked as a roll, are you always supposed to roll it, even if you can reach it?
Sort of "eat your spinach whether you like it or not."
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Sort of "eat your spinach whether you like it or not."
It's rather like "The composer wrote it that way, whether you like it or not"
That is an interesting question, though: if it is "allowed" to roll a chord when it cannot be played as a chord, is it also allowed to not roll a chord, although it is indicated in the score?
If an editor decides to make it simpler for people to play by marking a chord as a roll, by all means play it as a chord if you can. After all, that was the original intention of the composer. You still have the freedom to roll it if it sounds better to you.
However, I think, the reverse is not true. If the composer wants you to roll a chord, one has to roll it. There is a big difference in rolling a chord vs. playing it blocked in terms of sound. This is particularly true for isolated chords, which you are referring to. It is not uncommon that a four-note chord is rolled in a way that may span an entire measure (duration-wise), with speed and dynamics variations between the notes. One cannot achieve this through playing it blocked. Likewise, rolled two-note chords sound like grace notes/appogiaturas, which gives a completely different sound and which may actually be required in the context of the piece to increase interest, tension, forward momentum, etc.
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The way in which we roll cords or distribute the voices in dynamic and tempo is one of the things that makes a great pianist. The fundamental question is, why is this chord rolled or not. After a certain level its not just about handspan but about style and rubato. Great musicians have hundreds of diferent types of arppegiato, as great violinists have hundreds of diferent types of slides and vibratos.
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what about the opening of Bach's c minor partita? Bach didnt write a roll, but many pianists plays it with a roll, and some editions have it written in as well. what are your thoughts? to roll or not roll? is it stylistically permissible, like playing quavers as staccatos?
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Arppegiando in Bach is completely a different matter, since in Baroque improvisation plays a huge part. And rolls were mostly rolled in common practice.
I think a good example is the beggining of the Rach 2. Rachmaninnoff had huge hands, and he could play the chords as written, but even he rolls them.
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I'm the original poster, coming back.
I was playing rolls as block chords in Myra Hess's arrangement of "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring."
Two things.
1) I listened to her recording, and she rolls where rolls are marked.
2) Playing the piece, there are 10th span chords played block elsewhere in the piece. They are NOT marked as rolls. So when she marks 10th octive chords as rolls, she WANTS rolls.
I have adjusted my playing. Where Myra marks 10ths as rolls, I am now playing them as rolls. They are just rolled octives, but they add a variant to the sound.
Thanks to those who took the time to input . . . . .
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https://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/dlpage_new.cfm?composition_id=587
;D
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I think rolling the chord can sound more romantic at itime....I CAn REACH A 10th tooo whoa lol :D
anyways, I'm playing Romance (by seibellius) and the last chord is jsut a chor but i think it's too blunt just being a chord. So i slightly roll it, Is that ok?
i think it fits more with the peice, but i don't no :-\
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You know, I think sometimes, the roll is written in just because the composer couldn't reach the chord.
Really, you distinguish yourself. I roll what I think is intended to roll musically, and play straight what I believe is a "lack of stretch" roll.
Right now I'm doing a Chopin Polonaise (op 44 i believe), and I am playing many rolls straight, and actually, Rubenstein did the same thing.
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You know, I think sometimes, the roll is written in just because the composer couldn't reach the chord.
I doubt this. Composers usually don't consider their own limitations when they compose. There might be some rare exceptions, but that's what they are.
Really, you distinguish yourself. I roll what I think is intended to roll musically, and play straight what I believe is a "lack of stretch" roll.
The "distinction" will be that in both cases you are not playing what the composer indicated. I am not against this, personally, but strictly speaking, it is not correct.
Right now I'm doing a Chopin Polonaise (op 44 i believe), and I am playing many rolls straight, and actually, Rubenstein did the same thing.
Because Rubinstein did so, does not mean it's correct.
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well, I believe that it is opinion.
I disagree with you...I know that when I compose, I want to write chords out of my reach- you find the exact notes that you want, not what is within your "limits".
I have noticed within some pieces, there are rolls that are quite inconsistent with the music, and the only explanation for this is that the composer strained too much to reach them.
We can't argue this topic, because it is a matter of opinion, and that is mine.
I agree, just because Rubenstein did it, doesn't mean it's correct, but the fact of the matter is, many pianists do it, and many don't: it is inarguable.
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well, I believe that it is opinion.
I disagree with you...I know that when I compose, I want to write chords out of my reach- you find the exact notes that you want, not what is within your "limits".
Er..., you are not disagreeing with me. You are agreeing with me, unless I didn't understand you correctly.
I have noticed within some pieces, there are rolls that are quite inconsistent with the music, and the only explanation for this is that the composer strained too much to reach them.
We can't argue this topic, because it is a matter of opinion, and that is mine.
Oh, please let's argue :D
I still doubt this very much. If a rolled chord is inconsistent with the music, then the composer made a mistake. It has nothing to do with the composer's abilities. After all, the composer could have written a different chord that is within his/her abilities and that is not inconsistent with the music. Again, most composers don't write music for themselves only, so they often write music that is clearly "out of their league." I doubt composers would jeopardize the integrity of their music by writing inconsistent stuff that they themselves can play. No, they write consistent stuff, even if they cannot play it.
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I think that varies from composer to composer. We don't know that they write music far out of their league. Is it a coincidence that the best pianists have written the hardest piano music? Is it a coincidence that Franck and Rachmaninoff have the largest stretches in their music? Nope. It is because they were able to reach these chords with their massive inhuman hands.
The same applies to Chopin.... he wrote out chords that he wanted to sound, but I believe (once again, neither of us now) he had to roll them, which is why some pianists play the roll as a chord, and some just roll it as quickly as possible, almost sounding like a chord.
Now, I think that their is a direct coorelation between the size of a composers hands and the stretches in the music they write.
I played half of Franck's Theme and Variations, before deciding that I wanted to spend time on other works. I noticed that he had HUGE stretches and chords everywhere. I also noticed that there was what seemed to be a treshhold, where he would write rolls on the chords, as if these were the chords that Franck himself wasn't barely able to reach.
This is consistant throughout the music. So, of course, it is going to vary from composer to composer, I guarentee you there are composers who notated rolls because they couldn't reach them, and of course, they use them for beauty and effect as well.
There is no way that either of us can prove this right or wrong, but the differences in their stretches within the music is what leads me to believe this way.