Piano Forum
Piano Board => Repertoire => Topic started by: apion on May 08, 2005, 02:41:29 AM
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Overall, what is the toughest or most impressive Mozart piano concerto musically and technically for the soloist? That is, a concerto which, if performed to perfection, will "wow" the judges like any great romantic/modern concerto by Brahms, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Bartok, etc.
Also, what are your thoughts on the most impressive "pre-romantic" piano concertos (Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Weber, Beethoven, Hummel, etc.) both in the technical and musical sense. :)
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not that i have played any yet, but have been studying. i think the jeunhomme (k 271) is a very major work for mozart despite the fact he was only 21 when he composed it. mozart was experimenting with the notion of what a concerto could be. he combines (in the first mov't) the soloist and orchestra very intimately as the opening is shared. the powerful theme of the second movement makes you think he composed it later in life. the third mov't has an abrupt change in the allegro to a minuet in a different key. this is a trick of combining two movements in one (like chopin) and the chordal passages at the end are cool.
the elvira madigan is difficult, too, and has many various substitute cadenzas. BUT, the cadenzas of mozart are hard to beat, so i would pick the 595 (though simple and joyous in the last movt) as a representation of the hardest yet simplest mozart concerto. it has the original cadenzas (good thing) to both the first and last movement.
the concerto K365 has cadenzas to mov'ts 1 and 3 also (and it is for two pianos). i think this one would be an easier one, but harder in the fact that you would have to be together in playing it.
the K 456 has two cadenzas to mov't one and one to mov't 3. and, one of the most seductive pieces mozart wrote was the K 488 (cadenza to mov't 1 exists). he wrote it in the key of A major which was the key of seduction (similar to don giovanni wooing zerlina in A major). this gives deep tones of the lower register of the piano in the second theme. "this is one of mozart's most original works" as a completely new theme enters just before the exposition's coda, "giving rise to an extended original section in the development." the adagio, in the key of f-sharp minor is the only movement mozart wrote in this key.
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the very early concertos of mozart give you room to extemporize. the cadenzas are more free flowing and en-measure (no measures) the K 271 in E-flat has two cadenzas available for each movement.
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Actually, Im playing the jeunhomme. I think its the hardest of Mozarts concertos.
Anyways, replying to an earlier post, there are 2 cadenzas from Mozarts hand for the first movement. 2 for the second and 6 for the third. They are all included in the Urtext of the New Mozart Edition.
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thank you for your post! when were these cadenzas discovered? am still learning about these things and just wondering.
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not that i have played any yet, but have been studying. i think the jeunhomme (k 371) is a very major work for mozart despite the fact he was only 21 when he composed it. mozart was experimenting with the notion of what a concerto could be. he combines (in the first mov't) the soloist and orchestra very intimately as the opening is shared. the powerful theme of the second movement makes you think he composed it later in life. the third mov't has an abrupt change in the allegro to a minuet in a different key. this is a trick of combining two movements in one (like chopin) and the chordal passages at the end are cool. unfortunately, i don't think that one has an original cadenza to go with it. (correct me if i am wrong)
Do you know the history of the Jeune Homme? (e.g., how it got its name?).
Thanks
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The perception of what is difficult is highly subjective--with that in mind, I'd like to propose No. 15 in B-Flat Major K. 450 as one of the most difficult Piano Concertos that Mozart penned. Very, very difficult and tricky, IMHO.
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Actually, Im playing the jeunhomme. I think its the hardest of Mozarts concertos.
Anyways, replying to an earlier post, there are 2 cadenzas from Mozarts hand for the first movement. 2 for the second and 6 for the third. They are all included in the Urtext of the New Mozart Edition.
what? The Jeunehomme is definitely not the hardest...
I've always heard 20 or 27 is the hardest.
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Overall, what is the toughest or most impressive Mozart piano concerto musically and technically for the soloist? That is, a concerto which, if performed to perfection, will "wow" the judges like any great romantic/modern concerto by Brahms, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Bartok, etc.
Also, what are your thoughts on the most impressive "pre-romantic" piano concertos (Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Weber, Beethoven, Hummel, etc.) both in the technical and musical sense. :)
::)
Since when is "impressive" restricted to a technically difficult work? I'm actually shocked, and disappointed, that you had to include the bit about the Brahms and Rachmaninoff concerti; it appears that you only listed these because you want to compare a Mozart concerto to their...difficulty. When are you blockheads going to learn?...there's more to a work of music than its notes!
But I digress...
Apion, all of the Mozart concerti are too easy. To really wow the judges, I'd hit the Brahms second.
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Apion, all of the Mozart concerti are too easy. To really wow the judges, I'd hit the Brahms second.
Tis true. You ain't gonna win many, if any, competitions playing Mozart. If you want to win a competition, play Brahms, Rachmaninoff, Beethoven, Prokofiev, Bartok or Liszt.
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k 466 in d minor, by a longshot.
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Tis true. You ain't gonna win many, if any, competitions playing Mozart. If you want to win a competition, play Brahms, Rachmaninoff, Beethoven, Prokofiev, Bartok or Liszt.
Not entirely true. For example, 2 of the 6 finalists of the Van Cliburn 2001 competition performed concerti of Mozart:
Maxim Philippov performed Mozart Piano Concerto No. 21;
Wang Xiaohan (China) performed Mozart Piano Concerto No. 23.
So how do you explain that?
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k 466 in d minor, by a longshot.
Yep, I totally love and adore the d minor Mozart PC no. 20.
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Yep, I totally love and adore the d minor Mozart PC no. 20.
Agreed, by far, my favorite Mozart actually.
I believe that he wrote it in memory of his mother's death.
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dear apion, Turner may be right, because in Mozart's own writing he says that both the K 450 and K 451 "make one sweat, but the one in B-flat (450) surpasses the one in D for difficulty."
personally, i think difficulty isn't as important as 'connecting' to whatever concerto you are playing. if you like it, you understand it, and you play it with confidence - perhaps it is better than another that you might not like as much (or might not have the original cadenzas). The K 450 does have cadenzas to mov't 1 and 3.
tell me more about what you know of the jeunhomme. i am a true beginning connoisseur of mozart piano concertos. (just love them) i haven't played any, so i am not an expert in any sense. i'm sure some of the above posters know more about what is expected in a competition too. it seems like music cycles. also, some judges like some things better than others. (how would one find out the personal preferences of the judges? do you even know who the judges will be BEFORE a competition? or, do you find out AT the competition?)
my teacher tends to have preferences toward things less played and more contemporary. so many things ARE overplayed. for people like me, i LIKE hearing them over and over, but maybe for others they roll their eyes and think 'not again.'
all i know of the jeunehomme is that during january of 1777, a french virtuoso by the name of mlle. jeunhomme was visiting salzburg. mozart wrote this for her. a masterly concerto (but yet, probably much less difficult than things he wrote for himself. the same is true for the concertos written for therese paradis concertos). the concerto is still demanding and brilliant and needs good interpretation.
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::)
Since when is "impressive" restricted to a technically difficult work? I'm actually shocked, and disappointed, that you had to include the bit about the Brahms and Rachmaninoff concerti; it appears that you only listed these because you want to compare a Mozart concerto to their...difficulty. When are you blockheads going to learn?...there's more to a work of music than its notes!
But I digress...
Apion, all of the Mozart concerti are too easy. To really wow the judges, I'd hit the Brahms second.
I usually refrain from flaming people, but I found this post very aggrivating. Why just jump to the conclusion that Apion picked the Brahms and Rach concerti just because of their technical difficulty. Do you think the only thing in those concerti that matters is 'the notes'? I think he was using those as examples, because those are the concerti that most often win competitions; they are grand/huge-scale works that are very impressive; he didn't say that those were the only impressive pieces though. Then calling everybody blockheads... (heh, I don't really have problems with this; I think a lot of people are concerned with strictly technical difficulty, but certainly not everybody)
I think saying all the mozart concerti are easy is a ignorant statement ... Mozart is so hard to effectively perform (at least that's what I think, but my oppinion doesnt matter. however, numerous great pianists feel that way as well). Everything is so exposed, and every musical decision will be under close scrutiny.
Then you go onto saying what looks to me like 'since the mozart concerti are too technically easy (I assume 'easy' sure as hell doesn't mean musically easy) they won't impress judges, so go with brahms second' which is precisely what you were urging other people not to think.
If I have missed something I apologize at your feet (and even if I didn't, i'm sorry for being aggrivated. I'm in a bad mood tonight).
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Not entirely true. For example, 2 of the 6 finalists of the Van Cliburn 2001 competition performed concerti of Mozart:
Maxim Philippov performed Mozart Piano Concerto No. 21;
Wang Xiaohan (China) performed Mozart Piano Concerto No. 23.
So how do you explain that?
Well...every contestant in the van Cliburn finals plays two concerti. Both Philipov and Xiaohan playd Rachmaninov third to go it their Mozart. Olga Kern played a very well stated (Horowitzian) Mozart 27 and Ioudenitch played a very original Mozart 21, with cadenzas i am not familiar with (maybe his own?)
This year the "small orchestra" concerti list got expanded and lots of people are playing Chopin, Mendelsohn, Saint-Saens and Beethoven (which 1 and 2 were already an option, consider Koltakov then).
To the original post, I would say the c minor concerto is the hardest and I have seen at least one competition where the winner just played that (e.g., 1999 teresa Carreno).
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I usually refrain from flaming people, but I found this post very aggrivating. Why just jump to the conclusion that Apion picked the Brahms and Rach concerti just because of their technical difficulty. Do you think the only thing in those concerti that matters is 'the notes'?
To this particular poster? Frankly, yes.
I think he was using those as examples, because those are the concerti that most often win competitions; they are grand/huge-scale works that are very impressive; he didn't say that those were the only impressive pieces though.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. It's wrong, but it's yours. He gave these examples because they're difficult. Every single one of them. What else to all of those otherwise radically different concerti have in common, other than a bunch of pubescent primadonnas dreaming about playing them in a year or two?
Then calling everybody blockheads... (heh, I don't really have problems with this; I think a lot of people are concerned with strictly technical difficulty, but certainly not everybody)
If you really think I'm calling "everybody" a blockhead, ... , .... , I'm just speechless.
I think saying all the mozart concerti are easy is a ignorant statement ... Mozart is so hard to effectively perform (at least that's what I think, but my oppinion doesnt matter. however, numerous great pianists feel that way as well). Everything is so exposed, and every musical decision will be under close scrutiny.
Then you go onto saying what looks to me like 'since the mozart concerti are too technically easy (I assume 'easy' sure as hell doesn't mean musically easy) they won't impress judges, so go with brahms second' which is precisely what you were urging other people not to think.
If I have missed something I apologize at your feet (and even if I didn't, i'm sorry for being aggrivated. I'm in a bad mood tonight).
And it looks like the sarcasm just flew over his head! What do you think, Jim?
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Mozart is incredibly difficult.
For the most part, I've noticed that the majority of pianists who call Mozart easy happen to be immature musicians, with little to no interpretation. I used to call Mozart easy until I realized the musical and technical difficulties behind it.
It's so hard to keep the left hand so soft and let the right hand get carried away, with exaggerated dynamics. Whomever said this, try the sonata k 284.... or try concerto k 466 in d minor, 1st movement.
Some of those runs are BEASTS, as well as the cadenza.
I know that famous pianists often consider Mozart the hardest if not one of the hardest composers to attempt to play.
When I was playing the 1st movement of the d minor of a youngin', even the cellist I was competing with told me how one of his relatives is a great pianist, and before one of his concerts, said "Oh ****, I'm playing Mozart".
I asked my teacher, an incredible pianists, with unmatchable feel, and for that matter, flawless technique..."What do you consider to be the most beneficial repitoire?". He simply answered, "Mozart". Mozart not only teaches technique, movement of the wrist and efficiency (you need to be light physically at all times), but also perfect phrasing abilities and ability to play as soft as possible.
I wonder how many accomplished pianists out there have not played one ounce of Mozart?
Honestly Steinway, if you call Mozart "easy", then you are not playing it at a professional level, but rather, you are only playing the notes. Don't worry, you'll learn someday.
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::) Oh, brother.
sarcasm (n.): a form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
Looks like you guys just stop reading when something raises your eyebrow. You're doing wonders for making yourself look like a half-wit. Especially when your response is a dissertation.
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SteinwayTony, we can't read your mind, and figure out whether each one of your statements is sarcastic or not. Unlike in face to face conversation, we can't pick up on stuff like inflection and phrasing that would let us know. Try using a smiley to help us out.
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::) Oh, brother.
sarcasm (n.): a form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
Looks like you guys just stop reading when something raises your eyebrow. You're doing wonders for making yourself look like a half-wit. Especially when your response is a dissertation.
Looks like you need to practice your sarcasm more, it's rusty.
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Num 12 in A by far
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Looks like you need to practice your sarcasm more, it's rusty.
On the contrary, I don't see how it could be any clearer. Here's an outline:
Dogmatic suggestion
+ ironic contradiction of dogmatic suggestion
_________________________________
textbook example of sarcasm
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Overall, what is the toughest or most impressive Mozart piano concerto musically and technically for the soloist? That is, a concerto which, if performed to perfection, will "wow" the judges like any great romantic/modern concerto by Brahms, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Bartok, etc.
Also, what are your thoughts on the most impressive "pre-romantic" piano concertos (Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Weber, Beethoven, Hummel, etc.) both in the technical and musical sense. :)
I don't know the answer. But may I ask - who cares? Why does the difficulty of pieces matter so much to people who aren't even interested in learning them? Difficulty varies. We can't decide for YOU what the most difficult such and such piece by such and such composer is. Remember, one man's Fur Elise is another man's OC.
And then again, there is always https://www.piano.ru/library.html...
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This year the "small orchestra" concerti list got expanded and lots of people are playing Chopin, Mendelsohn, Saint-Saens and Beethoven (which 1 and 2 were already an option, consider Koltakov then).
Very interesting. Thank you for the clarification!
To the original post, I would say the c minor concerto is the hardest and I have seen at least one competition where the winner just played that (e.g., 1999 teresa Carreno).
Also, very interesting. I've always felt that the Mozart c minor (#24) was an amazing concerto in every respect. It doesn't receive nearly the amount of praise that it deserves!
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Very interesting. Thank you for the clarification!
Also, very interesting. I've always felt that the Mozart c minor (#24) was an amazing concerto in every respect. It doesn't receive nearly the amount of praise that it deserves!
I'm sure most of people here know that #24 and #20 are generally discussed together because they are both in minor keys, the only two out of the 27 Mozart wrote. It's been said, and I agree in part, that #20 is more appealing because it ends in D Major in the last movement, "a ray of sunshine," so to speak. #24 ends in C Minor, so the tempest and drama is that much more unrelenting and dramatic. I have learned, though not yet played with an orchestra, both concerti, and #24 is definitely harder. It didn't seem hard until I looked at the score and actually learned it.
#24 is also great because wind instruments are used so effectively and featured so prominently. There are sections in the 2nd and 3rd movements where it literally sounded like a wind quintet--the piano and the strings don't have anything, but the dialogue amongst the clarinet, bassoon, flute, etc. just goes on and on in a most charming way! Listen, for example, the variation in C Major in the last movement. In any case, Mozart at his best.
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Not entirely true. For example, 2 of the 6 finalists of the Van Cliburn 2001 competition performed concerti of Mozart:
Maxim Philippov performed Mozart Piano Concerto No. 21;
Wang Xiaohan (China) performed Mozart Piano Concerto No. 23.
So how do you explain that?
As one other member pointed out, each contestant have to play 2 concerti. I believe you saw the DVD of that particular competition and assumed that they played only Mozart for their final.
Neither of them won the gold medal, and they didn't get in to the finals by playing mozart concerto (not that one can't), but by playing various solo and chamber repertoires.
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I don't know the answer. But may I ask - who cares? Why does the difficulty of pieces matter so much to people who aren't even interested in learning them? Difficulty varies. We can't decide for YOU what the most difficult such and such piece by such and such composer is. Remember, one man's Fur Elise is another man's OC.
And then again, there is always https://www.piano.ru/library.html...
Apion lost a lot of my respect a few weeks ago in a thread in which he blatantly expressed his dislike for all of the music of Mozart. Now here he comes, saying, in essence, that if he absolutely must learn a work of Mozart, it should at least be the most difficult one. Makes me sick, really.
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how does that make you sick?
He wants to challenge himself, and Mozart is good for that.
I used to hate Mozart as well.... I played what I consider his most challenging concerto (of course I like that one)...so what.
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Apion lost a lot of my respect a few weeks ago in a thread in which he blatantly expressed his dislike for all of the music of Mozart. Now here he comes, saying, in essence, that if he absolutely must learn a work of Mozart, it should at least be the most difficult one. Makes me sick, really.
Mozart is one of my top 3 or top 4 composers ........ I really don't remember EVER blasting him. Really.
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As one other member pointed out, each contestant have to play 2 concerti. I believe you saw the DVD of that particular competition and assumed that they played only Mozart for their final.
Neither of them won the gold medal, and they didn't get in to the finals by playing mozart concerto (not that one can't), but by playing various solo and chamber repertoires.
Gotcha. Yes, I was basing my analysis on that DVD and jumped to an erroneous conclusion. Thanks.
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Mozart is one of my top 3 or top 4 composers ........ I really don't remember EVER blasting him. Really.
I must be thinking of somebody else; I apologize.
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I must be thinking of somebody else; I apologize.
No need to apologize. I've uttered my share of foolish statements, and it's entirely possible that I may have inadvertantly impugned my beloved Mozart. I hope not, but it's possible. :o
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imho:
c moll kv 491 (don't know by numbers) - 1st and 2nd part are incredibly difficult musically speaking (the kind of work that won't let itself be played naturally); 3rd part - very delicate, has some technically not-too-easy fragments.
and i agree, no mozart concert is competition-final material (don't know why, just isn't, i mean, not if you go for the prize). which doesn't automately means they're "easy".
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imho:
c moll kv 491 (don't know by numbers) - 1st and 2nd part are incredibly difficult musically speaking (the kind of work that won't let itself be played naturally); 3rd part - very delicate, has some technically not-too-easy fragments.
and i agree, no mozart concert is competition-final material (don't know why, just isn't, i mean, not if you go for the prize). which doesn't automately means they're "easy".
Today, I dusted off my score of Mozart's c minor (#24) piano concerto after years of neglect, and I have nothing but praise for this masterpiece. I've always adored the d minor (#20), but the c minor (24) is total gem and may be among the greatest ....... 8) :)
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I don't know the answer. But may I ask - who cares? Why does the difficulty of pieces matter so much to people who aren't even interested in learning them? Difficulty varies. We can't decide for YOU what the most difficult such and such piece by such and such composer is.
Life is short. If I want to excel in a piano competition, and if I have only so many hours per day to practice, at some point I need to decide which concerti are most apt to impress a judge. Fair enough?
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never having been in the unique position of going for top prize (would consider just being a contestant - at 43?- prize enough) it must be really wild. keep us posted as to what you pick and how it's going. i personally hope you pick something that is according to the % of agreed advice (sort of like the audience poll on 'who wants to be a millionare'). you can't go wrong if the majority are telling you that mozart is nice, but something you might not win a top prize for a certain competition (probably depends on the competition, too! say if you are entering the 'tchaikovsky' wouldn't it be likely that tchaikovsky should be one of your choices for something?) just wondering this?
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As a lover of Mozart, I would have to agree with those who feel his concerti are VERY difficult.
The difficulty is not so much in learning the notes (although some of the rapid passages can be very tricky), but getting the right feel for the music.
And the utter transparency causes great consternation to the soloist, God forbid one plays a wrong note or two!
Among others, I played no 19, K449, which has a very impressive finale. Unfortunately, the first movement is difficult to capture, but not virtuosic at all for the soloist. (Mozart wrote wonderful cadenzas for 1st and 3rd moments, though.)
I suppose in most piano competitions, the crashing Romantic concerti are going to impress more, but I'm not sure what that might say about the judging.
All the best, Teresa
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mozart - too easy for a childs too difficult for adults
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I listened to the first movement of the C Minor concerto today and was somewhat disappointed by it and am shocked that it is among the most difficult, but maybe it is the second and/or third movement(s) that make it so hard.
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Mozart is probably one of the most dificult composers, because every single note has to be played like the finest cut diamond. If you can play that good then i take off my hat to you.
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Not entirely true. For example, 2 of the 6 finalists of the Van Cliburn 2001 competition performed concerti of Mozart:
Maxim Philippov performed Mozart Piano Concerto No. 21;
Wang Xiaohan (China) performed Mozart Piano Concerto No. 23.
Yeah... and did any of them take away the Gold or Silver Medals??? NO!!!
Although, saying that - The Sydney Internation Piano Competition make you perform 2 Concerti - One of Mozarts, and one of Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Liszt, Brahms etc...
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Yes, the K450 DOES make the performer sweat throughout and it hardly lets up at all! The 462 and 488 are glorious works which ask much of the pianist but technically I'd put my money on the 450.
Curtis Stotlar
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Overall, what is the toughest or most impressive Mozart piano concerto musically and technically for the soloist? That is, a concerto which, if performed to perfection, will "wow" the judges
The judges will "wow" if you play good. -Not about the pieces you choose
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Who'dathunkit?