Piano Forum
Piano Board => Repertoire => Topic started by: zheer on September 27, 2005, 09:36:49 AM
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Was he gay, i mean he was this gentle week feminin man who fell in love with george sand, she drest like a man and smoked a cigar.
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when i read a biography, i don't look for the peculularities of personality as much as what was innately musical in the person. the first signs of genius, things like that. hardship seems to bring out a lot of talent. you'd think many had it easy, but even down to the present age, there are many pianists with backgrounds that you'd think would have killed them. i think when movies are made about pianists, they focus on some kind of idealized or non-idealized life. these people knew how and when to take the next step musically. following those steps is much more interesting.
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No you are wrong, compare the music of Beethoven or Rachmaninoff with those of Chopin, Chopin was less agressive more gentle but strong,feminin not masculine ,soft not hard , dreamy not realistic , sad not happy etc.
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women on the whole are happier. i've seen many more depressed men. what you are interested in, is how chopin actually got to experience life. i mean, if it wasn't for a woman, he'd have had none. george sand had to actively go after chopin because he liked to 'hole up' and practice so much. people say many bad things about her - like she tried to control his life, etc. etc. didn't chopin have any say in the matter?
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There is some evidence that Chopin was bisexual, or at least did some experimenting in that area with his childhood friend Titus Woyciechowski. However he clearly enjoyed the ladies as well. The great love of his life was not really George Sand though (she was not a nice person), but more likely Delphina Potocka. (He had other passions as well: Constantia Gladkowska and Maria Wodzinska)
Best wishes,
Bernhard.
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Thank you Bernard. I did'nt know he had bisexual relations in his childhood, i was only gessing that he was gay.
Who are those other women you mentioned sounds intresting, and why did he not have any children.
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please dont say he was gay. he was from my country.
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Sexuality is an individual not a collective thing, dont worry, poland will survive.
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Greetings :)
Sexuality is an individual not a collective thing, dont worry, poland will survive.
Too funny! ;D
On a serious note, I have met and known quite a few males who have exhibited a more feminine side, (which BTW, all males have and most refuse to acknowledge), than what society expects, but that doesn't make them gay.
As males, we have been taught from early childhood to suppress those feminine aspects of our personality in favor of the more 'macho' traits that seem to define what a 'male' is supposed to be in our society. Much to our detriment, I might add.
Many male musicians, (and in other endeavors such as ballet), who are viewed as being effeminate (usually by the males who are not interested in the arts), may be perceived as being gay. The fact that they are pursuing music (or dance) as an activity further supports the stereotype.
So, the fact that Chopin exhibited some feminine characteristics may lead someone to suspect he may have been gay. Maybe he was, or bisexual, as Bernhard has suggested. He would have suppressed such a thing anyway in the time he lived, I would think.
In any case, it matters little to those who love and admire his music. After all, it is the feminine side of mankind, I believe, that gives us the beautiful things in life.
Viva la femme! 8)
Cheers
allthumbs
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This thread is not only in the wrong section, but it is also very petty. Who cares whether Chopin was gay?! Haven't we debated these same questions in the countless other "Is so-and-so gay?" categories?
Look, none of us, including Chopin's biographers, can go back in time and be with him every second to see who he's f***ing. It doesn't matter!! We do know that he lived with George Sand for many years and that he had affairs with women.
The reason that anyone even knows who Chopin is is because of his music, not his sexuality.
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When one thinks of beauty , one thinks of flowers , women, Mozat or a painting.So yes non are masculine and so yes it may take a feminin individual to create beauty. I personaly avoid Chopins raindrop prelude, since it may damage my street cred.however Chopin is more popular with women a little like Van Cliburn.
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No it is not in the wrong section,because if we establish his sexuality it may change haw we perform his music.
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When one thinks of beauty , one thinks of .....women.......
I guess you've answered the question then.
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what kind of a forum is this. bisexual relations? lol You don't know anything about 200 years ago! I'm quitting this so called "Discussion about piano works, composers and recordings." I've watched as people claim nearly every historical figure of significance was gay/bisexual. It's really unbelievable seemingly intelligent people fall for this stuff! omg lol I mean, Alexander the Great, Octavian, Richard Coeur de Leon, Jehan de Arc, T.E. Lawrence, Thomas LOL Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, I mean I've read all these ridiculous articles and then i come here and find the same thing about Chopin! It's obvious that with modern times, there seems to be this drive to make foundless conjecture in order to appease certain people of influence. So what if they were, so what if they were not..
Really, I must ask why you'd post this? Is there any reason at all? One rational reason? The core of some of the most beautiful music in the world, the very spirit of romanticism in some respects revolve around the unification of man and woman,m true love, etc. You're turning love into a merely pleasure seeking enterprise and that sickens me which tells me music in a spiritual sense means nothing to you. Everyone who thinks this topic reasonable should quit the forum! Why is it that peace loving, gentle men must be homosexual? You infurate me truly, you're an insult to humanity! Similarly, why must males be shallow, butch, violence loving, monsterous, cold.. Bah! I wish to die among fellow humans who know the truth about things. These fictional divisions are the last insult I will take in this vulgar forum of fakers! You're all fakers! Not a soul respects that music is communion with the eternal. I'll have nothing more to do with you and yet I know it will be I who is exiled for this, not the the people in our very midst who seek to sabotage beauty!
I hope, at least, so long.
C.
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Bey bey.
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I personaly avoid Chopins raindrop prelude, since it may damage my street cred.
LMAO
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please dont say he was gay. he was from my country.
yeah you're pretty stupid
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When one thinks of beauty , one thinks of flowers , women, Mozat or a painting.So yes non are masculine and so yes it may take a feminin individual to create beauty. I personaly avoid Chopins raindrop prelude, since it may damage my street cred.however Chopin is more popular with women a little like Van Cliburn.
Why are you so obsesses with labeling everything in terms of gender? What is it about Chopin's music that seems "effeminate" in any way? How do those things pointed out relate in any direct way to women?
And honestly, Chopin is popular with nearly every classical pianist, not just "women a little like Van Cliburn". What the hell does that even mean?
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what kind of a forum is this. bisexual relations? lol You don't know anything about 200 years ago! I'm quitting this so called "Discussion about piano works, composers and recordings." I've watched as people claim nearly every historical figure of significance was gay/bisexual. It's really unbelievable seemingly intelligent people fall for this stuff! omg lol I mean, Alexander the Great, Octavian, Richard Coeur de Leon, Jehan de Arc, T.E. Lawrence, Thomas LOL Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, I mean I've read all these ridiculous articles and then i come here and find the same thing about Chopin! It's obvious that with modern times, there seems to be this drive to make foundless conjecture in order to appease certain people of influence. So what if they were, so what if they were not..
Really, I must ask why you'd post this? Is there any reason at all? One rational reason? The core of some of the most beautiful music in the world, the very spirit of romanticism in some respects revolve around the unification of man and woman,m true love, etc. You're turning love into a merely pleasure seeking enterprise and that sickens me which tells me music in a spiritual sense means nothing to you. Everyone who thinks this topic reasonable should quit the forum! Why is it that peace loving, gentle men must be homosexual? You infurate me truly, you're an insult to humanity! Similarly, why must males be shallow, butch, violence loving, monsterous, cold.. Bah! I wish to die among fellow humans who know the truth about things. These fictional divisions are the last insult I will take in this vulgar forum of fakers! You're all fakers! Not a soul respects that music is communion with the eternal. I'll have nothing more to do with you and yet I know it will be I who is exiled for this, not the the people in our very midst who seek to sabotage beauty!
I hope, at least, so long.
C.
In through the nose, and out through the mouth.....
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women on the whole are happier. i've seen many more depressed men. what you are interested in, is how chopin actually got to experience life. i mean, if it wasn't for a woman, he'd have had none. george sand had to actively go after chopin because he liked to 'hole up' and practice so much. people say many bad things about her - like she tried to control his life, etc. etc. didn't chopin have any say in the matter?
Incidence of depression in women vs men: 3.62 vs 1.98 per 1000 per year
Publication: Psychology Today
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women are depressed more than men collectively simply because they are more emotionally inclined *collectively*..so pianistimo..you make good arguments on false premices..you are dismissed from pianoforum.net ..you can punch out and drop your name tag off in my office before 4PM..but before doing so cancel my appointment with Jerry, i cant close that sponsorship convention for the 2nd of next month, i have previous engagements with other clients..and refill my stapler thanx
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I personaly avoid Chopins raindrop prelude, since it may damage my street cred.
Well, perhaps when you're a little older and comfortable with your own sexuality, you won't feel you have anything to prove in that regard. In the meantime, that's all the more beautiful music for us real men, right?
(Aside: Rachmaninoff, whom you hold up as an example of masculinity in another thread, could be every bit as soppy as old Frederic when the mood took him. Try the third movement of his 'cello sonata. Pure goo from start to finish. And I love it.)
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gosh get away from this board and help me on my board loll
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dear vladhorowitz,
george sand had way more fun than chopin (though i'm not saying i condon her fun). most women know how to have a good time, and relieve pressure by not being so stuffy (or obsessed as someone called it). i mean, if a woman's tired, she just goes to sleep. they think basic thoughts - and are not so unrational as scientific magazines make them out to be. if half the scientists were women, they'd understand a woman's cycle and tell the guys to be caring and more sensitive around times that they don't feel so good or have a major headache. if men had to deal with childbirth, and lots of other stuff that we deal with from month to month and year to year, they'd not just get depressed, they'd leave the country and never come back. women are brave. they stick it out. usually get treatment. and, only in very rare cases kill themselves. whereas men tend to just give up and shoot themselves in the head.
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He wasn't gay, nor was he bi. The letters exchanged between him and Titus were affectionate, certainly, and suggestive to our modern standards. But it was just the way of the time and place. It's only now that people are suggesting he's gay, because the way they spoke to one another just isn't done any more.
His music has nothing to do with it. If we're talking about "masculine" music, Beethoven has to be near the top of the heap but he's not exactly known for his rampant sex life, is he?
what kind of a forum is this. bisexual relations? lol You don't know anything about 200 years ago! I'm quitting this so called "Discussion about piano works, composers and recordings." I've watched as people claim nearly every historical figure of significance was gay/bisexual. It's really unbelievable seemingly intelligent people fall for this stuff! omg lol I mean, Alexander the Great, Octavian, Richard Coeur de Leon, Jehan de Arc, T.E. Lawrence, Thomas LOL Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, I mean I've read all these ridiculous articles and then i come here and find the same thing about Chopin! It's obvious that with modern times, there seems to be this drive to make foundless conjecture in order to appease certain people of influence. So what if they were, so what if they were not..
Really, I must ask why you'd post this? Is there any reason at all? One rational reason? The core of some of the most beautiful music in the world, the very spirit of romanticism in some respects revolve around the unification of man and woman,m true love, etc. You're turning love into a merely pleasure seeking enterprise and that sickens me which tells me music in a spiritual sense means nothing to you. Everyone who thinks this topic reasonable should quit the forum! Why is it that peace loving, gentle men must be homosexual? You infurate me truly, you're an insult to humanity! Similarly, why must males be shallow, butch, violence loving, monsterous, cold.. Bah! I wish to die among fellow humans who know the truth about things. These fictional divisions are the last insult I will take in this vulgar forum of fakers! You're all fakers! Not a soul respects that music is communion with the eternal. I'll have nothing more to do with you and yet I know it will be I who is exiled for this, not the the people in our very midst who seek to sabotage beauty!
Why does homosexuality have to be a "merely pleasure seeking enterprise"? And what exactly is your point, anyway? You calling everyone here "fakers" doesn't follow on from a single thing you said before. Your whole post is totally incoherent.
Jas
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Clearly you have all misunderstod me. I was just wondering if he was gay, not yes he was gay and that his music was gay, however a man of my intelligence will not get angry or personal, i will leave that the women, and this thread is soundig stupid, since it is filled with personal and angry replies.If you wish to take this any further please do, if not then stay out.I was only asking for an opinion on Chopin not me or men like me .Remember that next time you choose insult me you think twice.
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You certainly have a comic intelligence, assuming the comedy is intentional. But, often someone just slips on a banana skin by accident, and that doesn't make him Charlie Chaplin.
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No am serious , if Chopin was bisexual, then one should consider playing the Revelutionart Etude in Cminor in a different key , ie C major.
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No am serious , if Chopin was bisexual, then one should consider playing the Revelutionart Etude in Cminor in a different key , ie C major.
No, that wouldn't work. It would be like playing Marche Funebre in the major key, it wouldn't give the same mood at the funeral for which it was intended.
EDIT - Actually, at my funeral, go ahead and play it that way, I wouldn't care anyway and maybe it would lighten up the mood. ;)
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Uuh, are you sure you even know what 'gay' means?
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Was Bach a Martian??
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Was he gay, i mean he was this gentle week feminin man who fell in love with george sand, she drest like a man and smoked a cigar.
Was he deaf, i mean he was this crazy man who rote dissinint music, it was scarey to the peeple when he rote it.
::)
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No Beethoven was certinly not deaf , he was colour blind.
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however a man of my intelligence will not get angry or personal, i will leave that the women
I think it's mostly because you insult others without even seeming to notice it. It may also have to do with the assumption that Chopin's music is somehow effeminate. It's music. It doesn't have a gender or a sexual orientation. The idea of assigning gender to objects and concepts is a very human thing to do, but it simply doesn't make sense.
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No it is not in the wrong section,because if we establish his sexuality it may change haw we perform his music.
I've done my painstaking research, worked day and night, and now finally, I am happy to inform everyone that yes, Chopin was in fact a homosexual.
Now, just a friendly reminder for all the men out there to only wear a leopard skin G-string the next time you give a Chopin Recital.
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Chopin may have been asexual.
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It is hard to believe that one of the most romantic composers was neither intrested in men or women, i feel he had to much fire,romance ,seduction,energy and love in his music to pass as an asexual.HIs Nocturnes are likly to seduse the opposite sex into bed.
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No Beethoven was certinly not deaf , he was colour blind.
I was wondering whether you were a complete idiot, an obnoxious wanker or a somewhat clever troll. Now I'm decided.
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I love you to.
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i completely agree with nightingalesong.
i had a lot of fun reading this topic.
i'd take it simpler and say chopin was romantic... :)
lol.
zheer, take it easy. you triggered quite a lot of arguments recently... :-\
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here's an interesting point....
WHO CARES IF CHOPIN WAS GAY - HE WROTE GREAT MUSIC!!!!
Sorry, but I just fear that the second someone accuses a composer of being gay, all these people get narky and defensive... There's no need for it.
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I'd try not to drop my music books on the floor when near him. just to be on the safe side :-*
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This is something Chopin said to a close friend, " i like to admire women from a distance", most men admire women in close proximity, hence he avoided intimacy.
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Brahms, a lifetime bachelor, kept love and sex entirely separate throughout his life. For him sexual expression sullied the beautiful love object. His solution was to routinely fall in love with women he could admire, but have sex with prostitutes. I don't think he was the only one in the 19th century with these attitudes and behaviors. The madonna/*** syndrome. Women are either saints or evil temptresses. Anyhow, Brahms was often lonely and he yearned for female companionship (which is obvious in his music, where yearning is the most common emotion). He was also really hard to get along with and completely dedicated to his art, so he wouldn't have made room for a partner even if he hadn't had his particular sexual hangup.
Couldn't it have been similar with Chopin?
Now Schubert's another story! ;)
P.S. The **** bleeping above is another word for prostitute, one that apparently is too naughty for this forum!
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,soft not hard ,
Possibly a description of yourself?
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As I said before there is some evidence that Chopin was bisexual. He was definitely not homosexual in the restrict sense of the word, since he was undoubtedly attracted to women and engaged in sexual intercourse with several of them. And he was certainly not asexual – although at a certain point in his life he might simply have been too sick to be able to “perform”.
In a certain sense his love life was an utter failure since (unlike Schumann’s or Mendelssohn’s and like Liszt’s Beethoven’s, Brahms’s and Schubert’s love lives) he never managed to get the women he truly wanted, and ended up with women who pursued him relentlessly. In a certain sense he betrayed the romantic ideal of “one pure love” (an ideal that goes as far back as the troubadors in middle age) to cavort with whoever was available. Personally I believe that he was aware of such a betrayal and this caused him no small regret and suffering.
Let us make a brief chronology of Chopin’s “love life”. I will try to be non-judgemental and offer you quotes from Chopin himself (in italics) whenever available.
And let me add that although I find this interesting from a biographical point of view, I do not really believe it has any import whatsoever in appreciating or performing his music. Ultimately this is the level of gossip, not art.
1. Chopin was most definitely into women. (“I would rather play to a small audience of women than to a packed house full of men”)
2. Chopin was not regarded as a particularly handsome man (as, say, Liszt was). His – undeniable – charisma lay elsewhere. Physically he was fragile (Liszt: ”his whole appearance makes the beholder think of the convolvuli which, on the slenderest of stems, balanced divinely coloured chalices of such vaporous tissues that the slightest touch destroys them” ) but he had aristocratic and refined manners, and dressed with great care and taste: he was a dandy. In a sense this made him a perfect ladies’man.
3. In childhood he was surrounded by women: his mother and sisters (he was the youngest), and like Mozart, he was a child prodigy feted by dotting and admiring females from the aristocracy.
4. In Warsaw he attended a boy’s school, but was always making up with his friends’ sisters. At age 14 he fell in love with a young girl form the nearby convent school. ”Her father was annoyed with me for trying to arrange a secret rendez-vous with his daughter. Our go-between was a Jewish boy called Leibush, son of a shopkeeper who supplied us with pens and writing paper. Leibush had a good ear. He would not accept payment for his services. He only wanted to have lessons with me and would listen under my window for hours when I was playing. This messenger of love was a very important person in my life at the time”.
5. Chopin was also deeply attached to his classmate Titus Woyciechkowski to whom he wrote many passionate letters. In one of them he “longs to kiss” his faithful friend, but notes: “you don’t like to be kissed” . Are we reading too much in this, and this is just brotherly friendship? Meanwhile, Chopin was composing and dedicating his compositions to a number of ladies, Amongst them Countess Alexandrine de Moriolles (he dedicated his “Rondo a la Mazur” to her), who had been a childhood friend, and Emily Eisner, the daughter of his music teacher at the conservatory. Emily use to listen to his compositions and copy them for him. (He dedicated … to her)
6. Around that time, Chopin went on holidays on the country state of Countess Pruzsak. While he was there, the governess got pregnant and Chopin was the prime suspect. As it turned out he was innocent (and was subsequently offered a job to teach piano to the Countess children), but he felt quite proud of the charge.
7. In a letter to Titus dated 12. 9. 1829 – after a detailed account of his first concerts in Vienna - he ends his letter: “I kiss you heartily, right on the lips, if I may.” In another letter of the same period: “Don’t kiss me now, for I have not washed yet […] How silly of me! You wouldn’t kiss me even if I were to bathe in all the perfumes of Byzantium, unless I forced you by some super natural power. I believe in such powers. Tonight you shall dream you are kissing me”. Chopin dedicated his “Variations” to him.
George Sand once remarked that Chopin was “emotionally versatile” and while in Vienna he fell in love with 17 year-old Leopoldine Blatheka, who also composed and presented Chopin with signed copies of her piano works. However this did not last. Back in Varsaw, he met – as he told Titus – his ideal woman: Constantia Gladkowska. She was at the last year in the conservatory and was to have a brilliant career as a singer. He was so smitten that he could not even talk to her. In spite of that, he was still writing to Titus in a most affectionate manner: “I love you to distraction” and “You are the only one I love”, or “I know you love me, but I am afraid of you. God knows you are the only one who has power over me, you and… well, no one else.”. Chopin carried around a bundle of Titus’ letters tied with a pretty ribbon.
8. In Warsaw, Chopin was the man of the hour, with a successful recital at the National Theater. Eventually he was formally introduced to Constantia. Unfortunately Chopin could not get to speak to her alone, so his love remained a secret (although she may have noticed something was afoot).
9. At this point the famous singer Henrietta Sontag was making a tour which included Warsaw. She was 24 and famous in all the European capitals. Chopin could not have enough of her, attending all her recitals and visiting her often at her apartment. On one occasion, when he went to visit her, he found Constantia and her companions there. Chopin was undecided and confused. In that state, he went to Titus farm and spend a couple of weeks there hunting and playing the piano together. He needed to go back to Vienna, but kept procrastinating it. He only decided to go after Titus promised to meet him there in the Autumn.
10. Just before Chopin left for Vienna, Constantia gave him a ring and a poem. But as soon as he left she got married to a Warsaw merchant. She gave up her career, had five children and went blind at age 35 (but survived Chopin for 40 years). Chopin never again spoke to her.
11. Meanwhile, Chopin was not having much time to think about Constantia, since in Dresden he met Countess Delphina Potocka. Delphina was unhappily married to Count Potocki, who gave her an allowance to set up in Dresden, while he remained in Poland. She was 25, extremely beautiful, well read and played the piano, composed and was an accomplished singer. She also had a string of lovers which included the painter Delacroix (who was to paint the famous portrait of Chopin). She became Chopin’s pupil and their affair Chopin became the talk of the town. Now, you guys who regard Chopin as asexual, check out the letters below from Chopin to Delphina. But first let me give the background.
Schumann had written a critical article in his music magazine about Chopin’s “La ci Darem variations”. In it he had compared a passage in the third variation to the scene in Mozart’s Don Giovanni where Giovanni kisses Zelina on the D flat (“Des Dur” in
German). In Polish “Des dur” resembles “des durka” a café in Warsaw which was a meeting point of artisits and intellectuals. It translates as “The little hole”. This immediately became a private joke between the lovers: Chopin would write to Potocka and say ” I long to kiss your des durka very, very hard.”
Here is his written instruction to her on the use of the pedal:
”Treat it carefully, for it is not easy to win its intimacy and love. Like a society lady anxious about her reputation, it won’t yield just like that. But when it does, yield, it can perform miracles, like an experienced mistress. PS. I would like to plonk something down your little hole in D flat major again. Do not refuse me. F.C.”
Chopin had firm ideas about the relationship between sex and creativity:
Inspiration and ideas only come to me when I have not had a woman for a long time. When I have emptied my fluid into a woman so much I am pumped dry, inspiration deserts me and no new musical ideas come into my head. Think how strange and beautiful it is, that the force used to fertilise a woman, creating new life in her, is the same force that creates a work of art. It is the same life-giving fluid, yet man wastes it on one single moment of pleasure. The same is true of science. Those who make great discoveries must stay away from women. The formula is simple enough: A man must renounce women, then the energy accumulating in his system will go – not from his cock and balls into a woman – but into his brain in the form of inspiration where it might give birth to a work of art. Think of it, the sexual desire that drives men into women’s arms can be transformed into inspiration. But only for those who have talent. A fool who lives without women will go mad with frustration. For the genius, unrequited love and unfulfilled passion, sharpened by the unattainable image of their beloved, is an endless source of inspiration”.
How much Chopin and Delphina were at it, can be gathered from this letter written in 1833 (Phindela is an anagram of Delphina):
“Oh my sweetest Phindela, think of how much of that precious fluid I have wasted on you ramming away at you to no good purpose. I have not given you a baby and think how many musical ideas have been squandered inside you. Ballads, Polonaises, perhaps even an entire concerto have been lost forever up your D flat major, I cannot tell you how many. I have been so deeply immersed in my love for you I have hardly created anything, everything creative went straight from my cock into your “des durka”. Works that could have seen the light of day are forever drowned in your D flat major. You are now carrying so much of my music in your womb that you are pregnant with my compositions. The saints were right when they said that women were the gates of hell. No, no, I take that back. You are the gates of heaven. For you I will give up fame, work, everything.
[he then writes her a little poem]
*** you is my favourite occupation
Bed beats inspiration
I long for your lovely tits
So says your faithful Fritz
[it probably reads better in French]
[…] Oh Phindela, my own little Phindela, how I long to be with you. I am trembling and shivering as if ants were crawling all over me from my brain down to my cock. When the coach will at long last bring you back I’ll cling so hard that for a whole week you won’t be able to get me out of your des durka. Bother all inspiration, ideas and works of art. Let my works vanish up that black hole forever.[…] I kiss you all over your dear little body and inside.
Your faithful Frycek, your most talented pupil who has mastered the art of love .
The main problem is that Delphina was insatiable and have lovers right and left. Chopin’s was often fuming with jealousy. Eventually, in spite of all his pleas, Delphina went back to her husband (apparently in spite of allher promiscuous behaviour she was at a heart a very conservative woman – go figure!).
Chopin was then 26 year old, and decided that the time had come for him to settle down and get married, and he set his eyes on his fellow compatriot, 17 year old Maria Wodzinska.
[to be continued when I have time]
Best wishes,
Bernhard.
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I read all of that...
(https://www.tmwb.net/forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif)
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As I said before there is some evidence that Chopin was bisexual. He was definitely not homosexual in the restrict sense of the word, since he was undoubtedly attracted to women and engaged in sexual intercourse with several of them. And he was certainly not asexual – although at a certain point in his life he might simply have been too sick to be able to “perform”.
In a certain sense his love life was an utter failure since (unlike Schumann’s or Mendelssohn’s and like Liszt’s Beethoven’s, Brahms’s and Schubert’s love lives) he never managed to get the women he truly wanted, and ended up with women who pursued him relentlessly. In a certain sense he betrayed the romantic ideal of “one pure love” (an ideal that goes as far back as the troubadors in middle age) to cavort with whoever was available. Personally I believe that he was aware of such a betrayal and this caused him no small regret and suffering.
Let us make a brief chronology of Chopin’s “love life”. I will try to be non-judgemental and offer you quotes from Chopin himself (in italics) whenever available.
And let me add that although I find this interesting from a biographical point of view, I do not really believe it has any import whatsoever in appreciating or performing his music. Ultimately this is the level of gossip, not art.
1. Chopin was most definitely into women. (“I would rather play to a small audience of women than to a packed house full of men”)
2. Chopin was not regarded as a particularly handsome man (as, say, Liszt was). His – undeniable – charisma lay elsewhere. Physically he was fragile (Liszt: ”his whole appearance makes the beholder think of the convolvuli which, on the slenderest of stems, balanced divinely coloured chalices of such vaporous tissues that the slightest touch destroys them” ) but he had aristocratic and refined manners, and dressed with great care and taste: he was a dandy. In a sense this made him a perfect ladies’man.
3. In childhood he was surrounded by women: his mother and sisters (he was the youngest), and like Mozart, he was a child prodigy feted by dotting and admiring females from the aristocracy.
4. In Warsaw he attended a boy’s school, but was always making up with his friends’ sisters. At age 14 he fell in love with a young girl form the nearby convent school. ”Her father was annoyed with me for trying to arrange a secret rendez-vous with his daughter. Our go-between was a Jewish boy called Leibush, son of a shopkeeper who supplied us with pens and writing paper. Leibush had a good ear. He would not accept payment for his services. He only wanted to have lessons with me and would listen under my window for hours when I was playing. This messenger of love was a very important person in my life at the time”.
5. Chopin was also deeply attached to his classmate Titus Woyciechkowski to whom he wrote many passionate letters. In one of them he “longs to kiss” his faithful friend, but notes: “you don’t like to be kissed” . Are we reading too much in this, and this is just brotherly friendship? Meanwhile, Chopin was composing and dedicating his compositions to a number of ladies, Amongst them Countess Alexandrine de Moriolles (he dedicated his “Rondo a la Mazur” to her), who had been a childhood friend, and Emily Eisner, the daughter of his music teacher at the conservatory. Emily use to listen to his compositions and copy them for him. (He dedicated … to her)
6. Around that time, Chopin went on holidays on the country state of Countess Pruzsak. While he was there, the governess got pregnant and Chopin was the prime suspect. As it turned out he was innocent (and was subsequently offered a job to teach piano to the Countess children), but he felt quite proud of the charge.
7. In a letter to Titus dated 12. 9. 1829 – after a detailed account of his first concerts in Vienna - he ends his letter: “I kiss you heartily, right on the lips, if I may.” In another letter of the same period: “Don’t kiss me now, for I have not washed yet […] How silly of me! You wouldn’t kiss me even if I were to bathe in all the perfumes of Byzantium, unless I forced you by some super natural power. I believe in such powers. Tonight you shall dream you are kissing me”. Chopin dedicated his “Variations” to him.
George Sand once remarked that Chopin was “emotionally versatile” and while in Vienna he fell in love with 17 year-old Leopoldine Blatheka, who also composed and presented Chopin with signed copies of her piano works. However this did not last. Back in Varsaw, he met – as he told Titus – his ideal woman: Constantia Gladkowska. She was at the last year in the conservatory and was to have a brilliant career as a singer. He was so smitten that he could not even talk to her. In spite of that, he was still writing to Titus in a most affectionate manner: “I love you to distraction” and “You are the only one I love”, or “I know you love me, but I am afraid of you. God knows you are the only one who has power over me, you and… well, no one else.”. Chopin carried around a bundle of Titus’ letters tied with a pretty ribbon.
8. In Warsaw, Chopin was the man of the hour, with a successful recital at the National Theater. Eventually he was formally introduced to Constantia. Unfortunately Chopin could not get to speak to her alone, so his love remained a secret (although she may have noticed something was afoot).
9. At this point the famous singer Henrietta Sontag was making a tour which included Warsaw. She was 24 and famous in all the European capitals. Chopin could not have enough of her, attending all her recitals and visiting her often at her apartment. On one occasion, when he went to visit her, he found Constantia and her companions there. Chopin was undecided and confused. In that state, he went to Titus farm and spend a couple of weeks there hunting and playing the piano together. He needed to go back to Vienna, but kept procrastinating it. He only decided to go after Titus promised to meet him there in the Autumn.
10. Just before Chopin left for Vienna, Constantia gave him a ring and a poem. But as soon as he left she got married to a Warsaw merchant. She gave up her career, had five children and went blind at age 35 (but survived Chopin for 40 years). Chopin never again spoke to her.
11. Meanwhile, Chopin was not having much time to think about Constantia, since in Dresden he met Countess Delphina Potocka. Delphina was unhappily married to Count Potocki, who gave her an allowance to set up in Dresden, while he remained in Poland. She was 25, extremely beautiful, well read and played the piano, composed and was an accomplished singer. She also had a string of lovers which included the painter Delacroix (who was to paint the famous portrait of Chopin). She became Chopin’s pupil and their affair Chopin became the talk of the town. Now, you guys who regard Chopin as asexual, check out the letters below from Chopin to Delphina. But first let me give the background.
Schumann had written a critical article in his music magazine about Chopin’s “La ci Darem variations”. In it he had compared a passage in the third variation to the scene in Mozart’s Don Giovanni where Giovanni kisses Zelina on the D flat (“Des Dur” in
German). In Polish “Des dur” resembles “des durka” a café in Warsaw which was a meeting point of artisits and intellectuals. It translates as “The little hole”. This immediately became a private joke between the lovers: Chopin would write to Potocka and say ” I long to kiss your des durka very, very hard.”
Here is his written instruction to her on the use of the pedal:
”Treat it carefully, for it is not easy to win its intimacy and love. Like a society lady anxious about her reputation, it won’t yield just like that. But when it does, yield, it can perform miracles, like an experienced mistress. PS. I would like to plonk something down your little hole in D flat major again. Do not refuse me. F.C.”
Chopin had firm ideas about the relationship between sex and creativity:
Inspiration and ideas only come to me when I have not had a woman for a long time. When I have emptied my fluid into a woman so much I am pumped dry, inspiration deserts me and no new musical ideas come into my head. Think how strange and beautiful it is, that the force used to fertilise a woman, creating new life in her, is the same force that creates a work of art. It is the same life-giving fluid, yet man wastes it on one single moment of pleasure. The same is true of science. Those who make great discoveries must stay away from women. The formula is simple enough: A man must renounce women, then the energy accumulating in his system will go – not from his cock and balls into a woman – but into his brain in the form of inspiration where it might give birth to a work of art. Think of it, the sexual desire that drives men into women’s arms can be transformed into inspiration. But only for those who have talent. A fool who lives without women will go mad with frustration. For the genius, unrequited love and unfulfilled passion, sharpened by the unattainable image of their beloved, is an endless source of inspiration”.
How much Chopin and Delphina were at it, can be gathered from this letter written in 1833 (Phindela is an anagram of Delphina):
“Oh my sweetest Phindela, think of how much of that precious fluid I have wasted on you ramming away at you to no good purpose. I have not given you a baby and think how many musical ideas have been squandered inside you. Ballads, Polonaises, perhaps even an entire concerto have been lost forever up your D flat major, I cannot tell you how many. I have been so deeply immersed in my love for you I have hardly created anything, everything creative went straight from my cock into your “des durka”. Works that could have seen the light of day are forever drowned in your D flat major. You are now carrying so much of my music in your womb that you are pregnant with my compositions. The saints were right when they said that women were the gates of hell. No, no, I take that back. You are the gates of heaven. For you I will give up fame, work, everything.
[he then writes her a little poem]
*** you is my favourite occupation
Bed beats inspiration
I long for your lovely tits
So says your faithful Fritz
[it probably reads better in French]
[…] Oh Phindela, my own little Phindela, how I long to be with you. I am trembling and shivering as if ants were crawling all over me from my brain down to my cock. When the coach will at long last bring you back I’ll cling so hard that for a whole week you won’t be able to get me out of your des durka. Bother all inspiration, ideas and works of art. Let my works vanish up that black hole forever.[…] I kiss you all over your dear little body and inside.
Your faithful Frycek, your most talented pupil who has mastered the art of love .
The main problem is that Delphina was insatiable and have lovers right and left. Chopin’s was often fuming with jealousy. Eventually, in spite of all his pleas, Delphina went back to her husband (apparently in spite of allher promiscuous behaviour she was at a heart a very conservative woman – go figure!).
Chopin was then 26 year old, and decided that the time had come for him to settle down and get married, and he set his eyes on his fellow compatriot, 17 year old Maria Wodzinska.
[to be continued when I have time]
Best wishes,
Bernhard.
Time to break out the pimp glove 8)
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PS. I would like to plonk something down your little hole in D flat major again. Do not refuse me. F.C.
This confirms it: Chopin was straight! ::)
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Was he gay, i mean he was this gentle week feminin man who fell in love with george sand, she drest like a man and smoked a cigar.
This is a very dumb thread! cant you think of something smarter
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Haha. 8)
I'm giggeling my undies of :)
I mean even though your facts might be correct in some cases, you arguments are ridiculous.
One person starts complaining about the relevance of Chopins sexuality, i.e. s/he is homofobic and don't want to know the truth, because of the risc that he might just aswell have been loving to love men. *sigh*
Another one starts referring to his femininity.. So? Sure a lot of gay men are a bit sissy, but helloo? ;)
And the other posts.. Well I could either laugh or cry... I choose to giggle
And btw Bernard, I almost exclusively love your posts, but in this case I have a complaint:
In a certain sense his love life was an utter failure since (unlike Schumann’s or Mendelssohn’s and like Liszt’s Beethoven’s, Brahms’s and Schubert’s love lives) he never managed to get the women he truly wanted, and ended up with women who pursued him relentlessly.
Schubert didn't get his one big love of his youth if I've gotten this right. As i remembered it wasn't mutual :( Maybe he settled later on...
( But this was a very amusing topic however :) )
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the assumption that Chopin's music is somehow effeminate. It's music. It doesn't have a gender or a sexual orientation. The idea of assigning gender to objects and concepts is a very human thing to do, but it simply doesn't make sense.
You are right.
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. Who cares whether Chopin was gay?!
Exactly.
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Haha. 8)
And btw Bernard, I almost exclusively love your posts, but in this case I have a complaint:
Schubert didn't get his one big love of his youth if I've gotten this right. As i remembered it wasn't mutual :( Maybe he settled later on...
( But this was a very amusing topic however :) )
Yes, this is my point. Schubert, Chopin, Liszt, they all shared this romantic ideal of the true love, the soul mate, but they never really achieved it, while Schumann and Mendelssohn did.
By the way, what about Liszt? was he gay? ;D ;D ;D
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Bernhard, where did you find all those quotes? Some of that sounds familiar. It's not something that comes up in most Chopin bios, though!
Haha.
I'm giggeling my undies of
I mean even though your facts might be correct in some cases, you arguments are ridiculous.
One person starts complaining about the relevance of Chopins sexuality, i.e. s/he is homofobic and don't want to know the truth, because of the risc that he might just aswell have been loving to love men. *sigh*
Another one starts referring to his femininity.. So? Sure a lot of gay men are a bit sissy, but helloo?
And the other posts.. Well I could either laugh or cry... I choose to giggle
And your own post was oh so enlightening.
Jas
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I'm wondering if someone mishead and it's "Chopin, Listz and Sherbert might have been homophones?"
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I'm wondering if someone mishead and it's "Chopin, Listz and Sherbert might have been homophones?"
What?
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What?
Words that sound alike but are different in spelling and meaning
Like barmy and balmy, days and daze [or for this topic gays and gaze - perhaps it was "Chopin liked to gaze for secs every day" ?] , cent and sent and so on.
[And I know chopin listz isn't pronounced "chopping / shopping list" but it looks close enough :) ]
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Bernhard, what is (are) your reference(s) re: the affair of Chopin and Delphina Potocka? What about the other ones also? I guess the biographies of Chopin I have been reading are pretty much in the conservative side. Thanks
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As promised, the Second part of Chopin's love life:
So, Chopin at 26 – licking his wounds from the affair with Delphina (who had gone back to her husband) decided that it was time to get married, and so he turned his charm on 16 year old Marie Wodzinska – he was corresponded and they got secretly engaged. Her family (her father was a Count) was dead set against it – not only he was a musician without resources, as he was obviously sick. The Count liked Chopin, but the social difference was just too much. Apparently what really got to Chopin was not the suffering of impossible love, but the humiliation of being put in his place. He tied up Marie’s letters in a bundle and wrote: “Moja bieda” (“My misfortune”). Then Chopin moved on. Marie on the other hand married someone else: Count Joseph Starbek, and the marriage was such a disaster that it got annulled. Years later she remarried a guy called Orpis Zewski and they lived happily ever after.
Then in 1836 Liszt introduced him to George Sand. Love at first sight? Hardly. Here are Chopin’s first impressions:
I have just made the acquaintance of a great celebrity, Mme. Dudevant, known as George Sand. I did not like her face, there is something disagreeable about it. There is something about her that puts me off. (Letter to his family)
(The fact that she wore trousers, smoked cigars and her generally unlady like behaviour?)
What a repulsive pregnant dog that Sand is, is she really a woman? I am inclined to doubt it. (Comment to the pianist Ferdinand Hiller)
Delphina for all her promiscuity, behaved in society and was the epitome of femininity, but Sand was the stuff of tabloid scandal. Not only she had several very public affairs and rows, as her books were contentious to say the least. (As a writer she has mostly been forgotten – I have read her – hilarious – account of her trip to Majorca with Chopin, and one can see why she has been forgotten. She is too self-centered to really care for her characters, so she often drifts and never returns to the plot).
In any case, Sand decided that Chopin was just perfect for her, and in spite of his initial antipathy, she pursued him relentlessly until he had no strength to say no anymore.
At this stage another character enters the scene: the Marquis the Custine, a well known homosexual, who fell heads over heels in love with Chopin. We do not know if Chopin reciprocated the Marquis attentions (probably not), but the Marquis was lavishing so much attention on Chopin, that the two soon become a gossip item. Sand, in her pursuit of Chopin (even though she was the lover of the writer Charles Didier at the time), immediately started to include the Marquis in her social life, and it was through his intervention that Chopin finally agreed to spend time at Nohant, Sand’s country house. Custine, declared his love and promised to take care of Chopin at Nohant.
After that, Chopin did a successful concert tour of France and when he came back to Paris, Sand was waiting at one of his concerts and heaped praise on him. Chopin who could not resist flattery, after 16 months of relentless pursuit by Sand, finally gave in. But the whole thing was a fracas. He wouldn’t or couldn’t perform. Here is Sand’s account:
Until recently I thought it was beautiful that he should abstain either out of respect for me, or timidity, or even fidelity to someone else. I thought it was a sacrifice, that indicated strength of character or chastity. It charmed me and endeared him to me all the more. But the other day, as we were leaving our house, he said something about resisting temptation. I do not remember his exact words but I think he said something about “certain acts” that might spoil beautiful memories for him. Surely this is nonsense. He can’t believe this, can he? Who is this woman who has given him such ideas about physical love? Has he had a mistress who is unworthy of him? Poor angel. Women who degrade the most heavenly moments of ecstasy, the most exalted act in creation, should be hanged
- Letter to Count Grzymala –
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(The woman in question was Delphina).
Although Chopin had high standards of beauty, and Sand was not beautiful by any stretch of the imagination, once he accepted that, he was suddenly smitten:
I have seen her three times now. I played for her and she looked deep into my eyes. Our hearts beat as one. Her extraordinary dark eyes held mine. She bent down to the piano keyboard. Those eyes set me on fire and overwhelmed me. My heart was taken. Since then I have seen her two more times. She loves me. Aurore – what a bewitching name (Diary)
Sand was smitten too. She even started to wear dresses again.
I remain as enchanted by him as I was in our first meeting. Not the tiniest cloud darkens our skies, not a drop of vermouth adds bitterness to our wine. I am beginning to think that angels come down from heaven disguised as men. If God chose to take me this minute I could not complain as I have had three months of perfection (Letter to former lover Delacroix – the one who painted the famous portrait)
The rest of the story is well known. They did not live happily ever after, and the beginning of the end took place in Majorca where they had a holiday from hell.
Meawhile, Sand’s daughter Solange had a crush on Chopin and apparently Chopin reciprocated (Sand was 42, Solange 18) Although Sand and Chopin continued living together, Sand started taking lovers and detailing her affairs in her fiction (which sold like hot cakes, since everyone knew it was not really fiction), and Chopin got involved with the singer Pauline Viardot (whose promiscuity was also well known).
Eventually Sand kicked Chopin out of her life, and Chopin from then on would only refer to her as “Lucrezia” ( as a reference to the Borgia poisoner). They would never see each other again.
At this juncture, Delphina Potocka reappeared in Paris her marriage definitely finished. She reopened her salon, started taking lovers and Chopin joined the queue.
He wrote her a long letter trying to win back her favour and explain away his affair with Sand:
My own sweet life, if my explanation is satisfactory will you forgive me and grant me your supreme favour? People have been lying about my relationship with Madame Sand. My liaison with her lasted less than a year, and now it is all over, I swear on my love for you and for my mother that this is the truth. Apparently I could not satisfy her. She wanted if five times a night. My illness was her excuse to finish with me. She claimed that my ill health meant that I could not make love, so she went off and found herself another lover. From then on she only gave me maternal love. She nursed me devotedly. You cannot imagine how kind she has been. But to say that I have been her lover all these years is a lie. Everyone who goes to Nohant knows about her lovers there and everyone in Paris knows who her favourites are here. At Nohant she writes all night and locks herself with a lover in the bedroom all day. Even the strongest men grow weak she is so demanding. That is why she changes lovers so often. She is insatiable, it’s really an illness, you know. After our break up I still loved her. I wanted her,. I was still attracted to her. But when I saw her with other men, it turned me off. Today I feel only friendship towards her. I love her like a mother. After I finished with Mme. Sand, I had some brief affairs. They were just physical, barely worth mentioning. People say I am quick to fall in love. Don’t believe them. You have known me for a long time and I have not changed. I always look admiringly at pretty women. And if any of them arouses me, I pull them into bed. But I do not give my heart easily. Only you and Madame Sand have taken my heart. And it belongs more to you than to her. I loved you with more passion because you know me and understand me like nobody else can. You are a Pole like me, while she is a foreigner. I could not bare my soul to her because she could not understand. The other women in my life were youthful dreams long since buried, or winds of passion which swept over me for a short time. I gave them my bed, my body and a little of my life-giving fluid. They never possessed my heart. When a violent love gets hold of me temptation and desire tear at me like wild dogs. The whole world ceases to exist, as it was with you. I am ready to give up everything for a woman, even sacrifice my life and my creative powers. Except for Mme. Sand, there has been no other love and passion in my life. My work shows it best. When you and I were together I could only revise old works or prepare ones I had already written for the printers. I could only write new ones when you were away from me for a long time. Otherwise I was sucked dry by love making. But for the last few years, I have created many masterpieces, so you see, my energy has not been taken up making love. I have told you everything. I repented of my trespasses and await to be restored to your favour. I never loved anyone as much as you. You always remained in the tenderest spot in my heart. I always wanted you. Even when I was in Mme. Sand’s arms I would rather have been in yours. Forget the evil lies and gossip you have hear about me. I have changed. In future I will be better. I will never again torment you with my jealousy. I have never loved anyone as deeply as you. You will be my first mistress and my last. There will never be another after you. I hope I have convinced you and you will let me come to you tonight. If this clumsy letter, sincere as it is fails to move you, let me soften your heart with music. Tonight when I ask your forgiveness, I will lay a new work at your feet. Remember how you used to say that I was a virtuoso in the art of love making, I knew how to satisfy. Well, my romance with Mme. Sand has taught me more, Now you will the pupil and I will teach you love games that are totally new and exciting. Don’t refuse me, I want you so much my desire will drive me insane. Then you will have that in your conscience. My poor heart has known more sorrow than happiness. The tears I have held back for so long, I should like to shed them on your bosom. I feel like playing and crying. I shall play for you as I have never played for anyone in my life. Tears fill my eyes when I think you might say no. You, the first and last love of my life, forgive me. My tears stain the paper as I write this. I beg of you! Answer me. I await your call like a dying man awaits the sacrament. With all my heart until death, Your Fritz.
Delphina forgave Chopin, and soon he was in her “favour” again. He dedicated to her the Minute Waltz (which happens to be in D-flat). She also continued seeing other lovers, much to Chopin’s annoyance (he said nothing – but according to one account, was heard sobbing behind the closed doors of his studio).
Finally in 1844, his pupil Jane Stirling – a very rich, young Scot – fell in love with him, and wanted to marry him, but Chopin had cold feet. After a disastrous tour of England and Scotland, Chopin fell really ill. Delphina rushed to his side and nursed him. Jane Stirling sent lots of money from Scotland. Sand never gathered the nerve to visit him. Solange went instead. Soon after Chopin died.
Best wishes,
Bernhard.
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Bernhard, where did you find all those quotes? Some of that sounds familiar. It's not something that comes up in most Chopin bios, though!
Sources:
Benita Eisler - “Chopin’s Funeral” – Alfred Knopf
Chopin’s letters – Dover
Tad Szulc - Chopin in Paris: The Life and Times of the Romantic Composer – Da Capo (many quotes from his letters and diary)
Basil Howitt - Love Lives of the Great Composers: From Gesualdo to Wagner – Sound and vision.
Nigel Cawthorne – Sex lives of the great composers – Prion.
And for those of you who believe that it should not matter one way or the other, you may wish to think again after reading the thought-provoking and scholarly:
Jeffrey Kallberg – “Chopin at the boundaries – Sex, History and Musical genre” - Harvard.
And here is an interesting movie (avialble in DVD) that explores the affair between Chopin and Delphina:
https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/July01/DVD_Chopin.htm
Best wishes,
Bernhard.
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One last thought:
Sand – from all I read – seems to me a completely selfish and egocentrical woman, and I am particularly unimpressed with the way she behaved towards her children.
It may be significant that Chopin never dedicated any of his works to her.
Best wishes,
Bernhard.
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are u guys serious?!?!
WHO CARES IF CHOPIN WAS GAY OR NOT?!?!
tchaikovsky was gay! so?
over 61 replies for such a stupid thread. and much less replies to very serious threads
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Are you going to play his music or go to bed with him????????????????????????????? duh?
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are u guys serious?!?!
WHO CARES IF CHOPIN WAS GAY OR NOT?!?!
tchaikovsky was gay! so?
over 61 replies for such a stupid thread. and much less replies to very serious threads
It's not stupid to ask such a question. For some composers, their sexual orientation is an underlying and recurring propulsive force in their music (whether conscious or subconscious; whether intentional or accidental). At some level, sexual orientation becomes relevant to the extent such consideration dominates or influences the composer's psychological thought processes .......
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Are you going to play his music or go to bed with him????????????????????????????? duh?
Now you are talking necrophilia ;D
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Sources:
Benita Eisler - “Chopin’s Funeral” – Alfred Knopf
Chopin’s letters – Dover
Tad Szulc - Chopin in Paris: The Life and Times of the Romantic Composer – Da Capo (many quotes from his letters and diary)
Basil Howitt - Love Lives of the Great Composers: From Gesualdo to Wagner – Sound and vision.
Nigel Cawthorne – Sex lives of the great composers – Prion.
And for those of you who believe that it should not matter one way or the other, you may wish to think again after reading the thought-provoking and scholarly:
Jeffrey Kallberg – “Chopin at the boundaries – Sex, History and Musical genre” - Harvard.
Ah, ok. I've read the Szulc (my favourite overall), Eisler, Cawthorne (most enlightening!) and Kallberg books. I'd forgotten about the Cawthorne one, I read it a few years ago.
If you can get your hands on some of the music journals out there you'll find a lot of interesting articles about sexuality and music.
and – from all I read – seems to me a completely selfish and egocentrical woman, and I am particularly unimpressed with the way she behaved towards her children.
Hmmm. I remember thinking after reading the Eisler book in particular that she's really been villified. She was pretty awful to Solange, but to Maurice she was a doting mother. Which, of course, doesn't change the way she behaved towards her daughter. But I think she and Solange became as bad as each other; these things tend to snowball and make people completely intolerant of each other.
She and Chopin, too. They were as stubborn as each other towards the end, and they could both be extremely petty. But she did give him a lot. More, from what I can gather, than he gave her.
It's not stupid to ask such a question. For some composers, their sexual orientation is an underlying and recurring propulsive force in their music (whether conscious or subconscious; whether intentional or accidental). At some level, sexual orientation becomes relevant to the extent such consideration dominates or influences the composer's psychological thought processes .......
Exactly. There was a big thing about Schubert's sexuality a while ago, in relation to his music -- the Unfinished Symphony in particular. Very interesting. :)
Jas
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are u guys serious?!?!
WHO CARES IF CHOPIN WAS GAY OR NOT?!?!
tchaikovsky was gay! so?
over 61 replies for such a stupid thread. and much less replies to very serious threads
Some people are interested in the biographies of famous people. Some are not.
Usually "who cares if _____ was gay" is a coded way of saying "don't mention homosexuality".
If you look at things objectively, you'll see that you can quite easily say "who cares if _____ was heterosexual?" because there are numerous references to heterosexuality in most biographies.
You may even find that certain biographers make a special effort to portray people like Tchaikovsky as being exclusively heterosexual, such as the Koch-Schwann Hoteev concerto set with its "Women in His Life" section in the liner notes that features pages of photos.
This debate boils down to whether or not a person feels biographical information is interesting and whether or not a person feels it is relevant to the music. Also, how much people feel any reference to homosexuality should be censored or met with scorn...
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If you look at things objectively
Yes, but how many did?
It wasn't the question - although the question was asked by someone who gave reasons for asking in the first post. That doesn't make the question itself bad - but the references to stereotyped "gay" behaviour that supposedly gave the evidence were, as someone said, ridiculous arguments.
The one person who seemed to understood what gay means and then answered whether Chopin was gay using facts about his romantic and sexual relationships gave the best answers - at least to the question of whether Chopin was homosexual, heterosexual or he couldn't make up his mind.
Rather than worrying about whether he carried a handbag, walked in a certain way, wrote pretty songs, liked pink, grew tulips, had a weak handshake or whatever other guff "gay" characters in TV and film do - or hung around with a women who had short cropped hair, wore a suit, had a tattoo etc. Because if being gay means any of those things, and Chopin demonstrated any of them, the question wouldn't be worth asking, but then lots and lots of heterosexual people would be gay and lots of homosexuals wouldn't be - perhaps the word would go back to its orignal meaning and teenagers could read old poetry without giggling.
A better question might be "I'm not gay but I wondered whether gay people are really all camp, mincing, weak and effeminate as the various media would suggest?", it'll still offend a few, perhaps, just as if you asked "I'm not black, do all black people talk da gangsta talk, shoot people, sell drugs, pimp and eat their children?" - although, at least it would be asking, rather than saying "Is Chopin black? He sold drugs and...." etc.
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There are two choices here: either it matters that Chopin was gay (or not), ot it doesn't.
The problem with the second option ("who cares about his sexual orientation, all I care for is his muisc"), is that then nothing matters. For instance, in order to understand/interpret his music does it matter that:
1. Chopin was the product of a mixed marriage (his father was French, his mother Polish) and as a consequence he had a bi-cultural education? (He didn't settle in France by chance).
2. Does it matter that Chopin was an exile, and at a certain point he refused (for political reasons) to have his passport renewed by the Russian authorities? And by doing so he effectively cut himself from ever visiting Poland again?
3. Does it matter that his patriotic feelings were so high that he asked that his heart be taken out and buried in Poland? (And he always made himself available for charity concerts for Polish emigres)
4. Does it matter that during his teenage years he spent many holidays in the Rural areas of Poland mingling with the peasants and listening to their traditional songs and dances?
5. Is it of any importance to an understanding of his music that for most of his adult life he was a very sick man?
6. Add you own bit of biographical trivia.
You see, either it all matters, or none of it matters.
Personally, I do not think there is enough evidence that Chopin was gay. He was certainly a dandy (perhaps even the first metrosexual man) and his manners may have been on the effeminate side. But he clearly enjoyed the ladies. He might have had a "hidden" life (and in that case he would have been a bisexual), but somehow I find this unlikely: the social circles where he moved, this kind of sexual behaviour was flaunted with pride, rather than hidden. George Sand herself never made any secret of her own bisexuality (and for that we have firm evidence - again she was not a lesbian, since she liked the boys as well) and had multiple lovers openly. She also spread the rumours that Chopin was asexual (we know this not to be true - Sand treated Chopin badly, and she was aware that posterity would judge her for that, so after Chopin's death she reinvented their relationship to cast a good light on herself - she also destroyed their correspondence, so we do not have Chopin's side of the story), and her daughter Solange refers to Chopin in her letters to Sand as "sans-sexe" ("witouth sex, or assexual). If Chopin was gay, we can rest assured that Sand would have let us know.
Personally I think biographies are fascinating, and that they do shed light on an artist's work. But one cannot pick and choose.
Best wishes,
Bernhard.
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but the references to stereotyped "gay" behaviour that supposedly gave the evidence were, as someone said, ridiculous arguments.
A better question might be "I'm not gay but I wondered whether gay people are really all camp, mincing, weak and effeminate as the various media would suggest?", it'll still offend a few, perhaps, just as if you asked "I'm not black, do all black people talk da gangsta talk, shoot people, sell drugs, pimp and eat their children?" - although, at least it would be asking, rather than saying "Is Chopin black? He sold drugs and...." etc.
A lot of gay men are effeminate and lot of gay women are masculine. However, not all gay men are effeminate and not all gay women are masculine. I don't think effeminacy in men, hetero or homo, is a problem, but in patriarchal cultures with a very rigid male gender role due to the veritable worship of masculinity, most people do have a problem.