Piano Forum
Non Piano Board => Anything but piano => Topic started by: josh93248 on August 03, 2015, 04:09:26 PM
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Pencil Art started an interesting thread that got some momentum so I'd like to create this one as a counterpoint and it might address his curiosity as to those of us who are atheists or at least, non-religious.
What are the benefits of atheism? Religious people can posit what they guess may be the benefits if they wish. Jokes are welcome too.
I'll start.
Benefit Number one: Free Sundays.
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I'll start: eternity in heaven, not in hell?
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Cheeky boy, trying to derail my thread that was made in your honour ;)
Can't you at least try to imagine a benefit?
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You can watch Notre Dame play Southern Methodist University and not care who wins.
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I know nothing of such things Tim, being Australian. Generally I don't care who wins anything unless it's tennis. But anyway.
You can think sexy thoughts and not feel guilty ;)
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You can think sexy thoughts and not feel guilty ;)
But you do...
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You can ACT on sexy thoughts and not feel guilty ;)
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Feeling guilty and being guilty are 2 completely different things.
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But as an atheist I'm Not guilty ;)
You also won't waste your time studying theology! A topic about as useful as the study of Dragons or elves.
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Being an athiest means you can use your brain, you can question things, you can make love to your neighbour and work on the Sabbath. You can eat what you want, drink what you want, dress how you like and watch naughty movies.
Thal
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May I please point out that what you believe does not change the truth. If I am convinced that I am the only real person on this website and that a robot is auto-generating responses, it would not change the truth that there are indeed other members on this site. When you say you don't "feel bad" about doing something that we both know is wrong, it doesn't change the fact that it is indeed wrong and you will be punished by God someday. It doesn't matter if you "feel guilty" or not.
Why do you think I am saying this? Is it to win the argument? Absolutely not! I am doing this because someday you WILL be standing before God and you will wish that you had decided to trust in him while you were still on earth. To be completely honest, whether or not you are saved or thrust into hell makes no difference to me - except that I care for all of you guys because I know that many of you are not christians. If you do not want Christ, that is completely your decision and may I just say right now that you will regret it... bitterly.
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In the nicest possible way, you are a silly delusional little boy.
Thal :-*
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In the nicest possible way, you are a lost, wandering old man.
Noah :-\
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I am not lost as i still have the ability to question, challenge and reason.
If you continue to be led by men who wear frocks and who have an imaginary friend, you will forever be bathed in the bliss of ignorance.
Thal
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I am not lost as i still have the ability to question, challenge and reason.
If you continue to be led by men who wear frocks and who have an imaginary friend, you will forever be bathed in the bliss of ignorance.
Thal
Very strong words indeed. Did it ever occur to you that in 2,000 years, they will be saying the exact same thing about you and your "stupidity"? Assuming that people who lived long ago are stupid is the worst mistake one can make. There was a heck of a lot more time from the creation of the world (whatever timeline you use) until them, then there is between them and us. They saw Jesus and were eye witnesses of what he did.
Why would they lie about this thing? The reason somebody lies about a religion is to gain money, wealth, or power. But what happened to them? They were beaten, humiliated, and executed for what they knew was true. There is no reason that they would make something like this up.
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I would seriously consider changing your school, if you are currently attending one. Perhaps one with less tambourines.
Your last post is really funny.
Thal
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Your last post is really funny.
Thank you. All yours are not in the least.
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May I please point out that what you believe does not change the truth. If I am convinced that I am the only real person on this website and that a robot is auto-generating responses, it would not change the truth that there are indeed other members on this site. When you say you don't "feel bad" about doing something that we both know is wrong, it doesn't change the fact that it is indeed wrong and you will be punished by God someday. It doesn't matter if you "feel guilty" or not.
Why do you think I am saying this? Is it to win the argument? Absolutely not! I am doing this because someday you WILL be standing before God and you will wish that you had decided to trust in him while you were still on earth. To be completely honest, whether or not you are saved or thrust into hell makes no difference to me - except that I care for all of you guys because I know that many of you are not christians. If you do not want Christ, that is completely your decision and may I just say right now that you will regret it... bitterly.
In the simplest way possible, what you believe is not factually correct.
I will regret nothing if the Christian god is the real one. If he really is as the Bible says, despite all it's inconsistencies, then I'll kindly give him the bird and walk into Hell with my head held high.
Very strong words indeed. Did it ever occur to you that in 2,000 years, they will be saying the exact same thing about you and your "stupidity"? Assuming that people who lived long ago are stupid is the worst mistake one can make.
Except that people 2000 years ago didn't have modern geology, astronomy, biology, psychology, and the rest nearly at all, much less to the extent that we have it today.
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I'll walk into Hell with my head held high.
Is this really what you want?
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I'd much rather be burning in hell than worshiping the blithering idiot that Yahweh is.
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I'd much rather be burning in hell than worshiping the blithering idiot that Yahweh is.
I gave you a chance. That's all I will say on that day.
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That day which shall not come, because your god is fictional.
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Ho boy, can we get back on topic?
I'll get us started again.
We get to realise the real reason music is good has nothing to do with God. It has to do with the inspiration of human beings.
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Religion is not all bad.
But there is at least one nontrivial problem.
It requires the wilful suspension of critical thinking. I'm not speaking just of Christianity, but of all religions that include supernatural events that are contrary to common sense and cannot be verified independently.
Now, that's fine within the religion itself.
The trouble is the suspension tends to generalize outside of the religion. That artifact in the glass case is a piece of the actual cross? It can heal you if you kneel before it? No harm done.
But people who suspend critical thinking in one area tend to do so in others. They start believing in other cr@p like crop circles, UFOs, iridology, crystal healing, etc. They are more easily taken advantage of, which hurts only them. But the world is faced with real dangers now that can only be met by people who can think clearly and without bias.
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Good point Tim. I find your posts insightful, thanks.
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@Josh … k. i'll bite.
"...inspiration of human beings."
Please explain logically/scientifically: "inspiration" -- where does it come from.. how and why does it affect you - if it does.. :)
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Religion is not all bad.
But there is at least one nontrivial problem.
It requires the wilful suspension of critical thinking. I'm not speaking just of Christianity, but of all religions that include supernatural events that are contrary to common sense and cannot be verified independently.
Now, that's fine within the religion itself.
The trouble is the suspension tends to generalize outside of the religion. That artifact in the glass case is a piece of the actual cross? It can heal you if you kneel before it? No harm done.
But people who suspend critical thinking in one area tend to do so in others. They start believing in other cr@p like crop circles, UFOs, iridology, crystal healing, etc. They are more easily taken advantage of, which hurts only them. But the world is faced with real dangers now that can only be met by people who can think clearly and without bias.
It also can sneak onto government buildings and government vehicles here in the good ol' US.
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@ Theme
Well, I got a little romantic and poetic there, rather like you ;)
Anyway I'm not sure I can explain inspiration fully. It is not something I fully understand which isn't to say it is unknowable but it is at the very least difficult to describe with words.
I think inspiration is a unity between the cognitive and emotional parts of our mind. I think it also comes in part from the fullest expression of human creativity and problem solving. Also it allows us to let out all sorts of nuances of our personalities and inner natures. It can breathe life into a collection of sounds made in a particular order. Is it really important to know where it comes from though? Maybe it varies from person to person and It seems to me a lot of people don't fully understand their creativity yet they can still somehow hone it.
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I'm finding it very difficult to imagine someone like pencilarte as an artist or a musician. It makes me think that he's only come to pianostreet to save us.
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Discussions like his used to really rile me and i'd go on a rampage. Now they don't even touch me. he's fixated on being judged and in a hypothetical future. If we could just stay in the here and now, none of this nonsense would ever come to mind.
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If we could just stay in the here and now,
Too bad we can't. And what do you mean I'm not a pianist? Check out my youtube videos. I haven't uploaded too many but more are coming.
youtube.com/noahjohnsonpiano
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Well birba, I believe in engagement, we are all, more or less, in this together so we better do our best in getting along and finding ways forward. pencilart is at least trying to engage, from a somewhat blinkered perspective perhaps but he is trying, so I feel it is worthwhile trying to meet him halfway, even if we never pull one another onto the other's side so to speak. It at least sets a decent precedent if people can behave.
I've looked at his videos. He has a lot of the hallmarks of a young pianist who needs more refinement and expression but he is, like with other things, trying, so I wouldn't write him off completely.
Besides, given the state classical music and piano playing is in at the moment, we need everyone we can get.
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@Josh "lot of people don't fully understand their creativity yet they can still somehow hone it."
I would definitely agree…. and what about that, "don't fully understand" stuff… I appreciate that you hold a place for that 'caveat'… It is a metaphor and a fractal - (a shape that can be applied to the very small And very big) … Surely that 'lacuna' is something that haunts any sure footedness on this issue…
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You like being mysterious, don't you theme? Do you have any music I could look at? I'd like to see how your personality is reflected in your playing.
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Thank you Josh! I have been on piano street for almost a year discussing piano, and then I ask a question about atheism, than turns into a discussion, and that into a debate and now they're asking if I even play piano? My goodness!
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Well, i do have posted "at the beach".. in the audition room..
And as fate would have it, on Another tune, it so happens i had to work with some words (thought of by someone else) that perhaps have some biblical reference 8) - ..but as I put in the disclaimer on my site.. "The words are purely metaphorical"… That tune also is in the audition room: "spoken word".. and the piano playing is quite different in that one from the first reference…
(I think it would be better to listen to 'at the beach' if you would choose only one of those to listen to…)
Thanks for your curiosity. :D
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May I please point out that what you believe does not change the truth.
Now think about that for a moment... Truth is actually just a perception, truth is not a fact. Your perception of truth is determined by your premises which are heavily based on your belief. As long as your belief comes first and cannot really be questioned, no amount of study will change your perception of truth either.
One benefit of being an atheist is that you can search for truth without such an overpowering restrictive premise ;)
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Truth is actually just a perception, truth is not a fact.
If I believe that it is moral to murder you, is that the truth? Or does it change for everyone?
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Thank you Josh! I have been on piano street for almost a year discussing piano, and then I ask a question about atheism, than turns into a discussion, and that into a debate and now they're asking if I even play piano? My goodness!
I'm sorry, i've been away from PS for some time now. But i'm curious to hear you play and i'll look,you up. You fascinate me. In a good way!
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I'm sorry, i've been away from PS for some time now. But i'm curious to hear you play and i'll look,you up. You fascinate me. In a good way!
Well I'm glad to hear that! ;D
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If I believe that it is moral to murder you, is that the truth? Or does it change for everyone?
Now lets see... "Morally true", what does that mean?
It simply means something that you perceive as a truth based on your "moral". Which is just as vague as a concept and based on your premises.
So it may be a truth for you, but it is not a fact. And yes, it does change. Even for christians. Killing people has been accpeted by christians, as long as you define it in a way that makes it not murder. Capital punishment, inquisition, act of war or even self defense are premeditated. But if they are legally defined as "not murder" they can be justified. But what happens when the laws do allow other forms of killing? When does it become morally wrong? And if the laws in my country do not allow capital punishment while the ones in yours do, then is it not still a murder from my point of view?
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Ah... I see. OK sorry, I thought you were saying something completely different!
First of all, there are absolutes. If there were no absolutes, then we could be absolutely sure there is no absolutes. It's self-defeating.
So there's two things: absolute truth, and relative truth. They are completely separate. If I say that this mountain is beautiful and you say that the same mountain is ugly, we are both speaking the truth, but saying completely opposite things. That is relative truth.
But absolute truth is entirely different. I believe that everything stated in the Bible is absolutely true for everyone.
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Ah... I see. OK sorry, I thought you were saying something completely different!
First of all, there are absolutes. If there were no absolutes, then we could be absolutely sure there is no absolutes. It's self-defeating.
So there's two things: absolute truth, and relative truth. They are completely separate. If I say that this mountain is beautiful and you say that the same mountain is ugly, we are both speaking the truth, but saying completely opposite things. That is relative truth.
But absolute truth is entirely different. I believe that everything stated in the Bible is absolutely true for everyone.
You don't really seem to understand the problem with your use of the concept "truth". An absolute truth would just be the same as a fact, right? And to say "I believe ... is a fact" makes no sense. Because a fact is not a matter of belief at all, otherwise it would not be a fact, right?
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This kind of ties into something I said on the other thread about faith.
You guys seem to have gotten into something of a definition war but I would add to the ongoing debate that from the perspective of man nothing can be known for sure, there may be absolute truth but we may never know. As for the bible being a form of proof... The bible is a book, no matter how true the words may seem to you that isn't a way of knowing something to be absolutely true, it could well have been created, as I believe, by human culture.
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You guys seem to have gotten into something of a definition war
Assessing definitions is inevitable in any serious discussion. Otherwise people will keep throwing arguments to each other endlessly and not necessararily even talk about the same thing.
Strong definitions lie behind religious or philosphical thinking systems. So what's the point discussing them without getting into those?
Pencil... doesn't seem to have given much thought to this at all. I don't think what I write will change anything, but it never hurts to try.
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But back to topic then...
What I see as the greatest benefit of being non-religious is that there's no need to constantly negotiate new knowledge with
your beliefs, which is what I see religious people do. Takes a lot of effort to constantly find explanations on how new scientific discoveries are possible even when there is a god.
Religion can be seen as both a psychological and a sociological phenomena. It has been a device to maintain the society and also a device to achieve piece of mind in individuals. During the history the societal aspect was most important. Only in the last 100 years or so some societies have changed and religion has become more of a phychological matter. When the world around us is getting
more complex and opportunities seem to be endless, people still look into religion to ease their mind. At the same time religious fundamentalists are deperately trying to return religion to its former status in the society.
I could classify people in two categories:
Those who need things to make sense to them all the time and are willing to simplify to understand more easily. They get very anxious about complexity and will often turn to either religion or some other ism to help them handle it.
But there are also those who embrace complexity and do not have as much need for order. They don't get anxious about not understanding everything and have less need for simple answers. They are often driven by their overall curiosity rather than a need to explain everything.
Of course most people fall somewhere into the middle in this as well as other characteristics, but I'd say the latter group has little use for religion as a psychological device.
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@Outin
The idea of complexity reminded me of this sketch of DaVinci's - "Turbulance".. (https://lebbeuswoods.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/blobs-1d-det1.jpg) His eyes able to fix on such movement.
I thought this quote might be apropos (somehow):
In Capra's (very interesting) "The Science of Leonardo" … He writes:
"…Leonardo based his science on systematic observation. Hence his starting point is the human eye. His careful investigations of the anatomy of the eye and the origin of vision were unparalleled in his time. He paid particular attention to the connections between the eye and the brain, which he demonstrated in a series of beautiful drawings of the human skull..Using brilliant anatomical directions, Leonardo displayed for the first time the complete path of vision through the pupil and lens to the optic nerve, and all the way to a specific cavity in the brain, known to neurologists today as the third cerebral ventricle… This is where he located the 'seat of the soul," where all the sense impressions meet… Leonardo's concept of the soul comes very close to what cognitive scientists today call "cognition, " the process of knowing...
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Mmmmm - one drawback for Atheism...
Lol I haven't gotten to my answer yet! ;D we are here to glorify God and enjoy him forever. God created us to glorify him, BUT, the catch is, we also ENJOY him.
See, the difference is, we are also most happy when we are serving him. I have found this to be entirely true. I am much more truly happy after I get done cleaning my widowed neighbor's house than when I get done playing video games...
There's a quote which says "God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in him".
Having to listen to crap like that from those who are NOT atheist. ;D
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But absolute truth is entirely different. I believe that everything stated in the Bible is absolutely true for everyone.
The stupidity is strong here.
How about we look at some of the things the Bible says in the Old Testament, since you have no problem with it.
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the ***, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. Leviticus 21:9
Do not trim off the hair on your temples or trim your beards. Leviticus 19:27
Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God." Leviticus 19:31 This doesn't seem so bad, but this means no fortune cookies or horoscopes ;)
You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together." Leviticus 19:19 Check the tag on your shirt. You're wearing mixed fabrics most likely. Most beef you eat is bred with two kinds of cattle, too.
A man whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off may never join the assembly of the Lord." Deuteronomy 23:1
No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the Lord." Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard is a fatherless son, so they were probably referring to those without testicles. Anyone with testicular cancer would qualify.
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The stupidity is strong here.
I entirely agree. Your post is completely stupid. OH! You were talking about MY post! I'm so sorry! ;D
Chopin Lover you are being outrageous! Did you even read these verses in context? Actually why am I asking. You obviously didn't. These things were the custom in that time! Customs change from time to time, if you read the context of the verses you would have noticed that. Many of these old testament customs were repealed when Christ died for us. You know, you can't believe parts of the Bible and not others.
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Yes, when I read them, it was in context.
But you've completely flipped from
. I believe that everything stated in the Bible is absolutely true for everyone.
to "It was the context of the time". Yes, it was, which is why it is basically irrelevant today.
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Yes, when I read them, it was in context.
But you've completely flipped from to "It was the context of the time". Yes, it was, which is why it is basically irrelevant today.
Everyone living ::)
You've completely flipped also. My post was in response to "What's true for me is not true for you" and now we're talking about time. Maybe I should have clarified that. What was true for one Israelite was also true for another AT that time.
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We have got to get an 'ignore user' function started. These forums would be so much nicer without having to read
pencilart3's annoying user posts.
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The fact is, though, he's only answering and disputing the last post. If no one posted anything, the thread would expire.
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lol chopinlover is responding to mine also, it's just that nobody agrees with me and everyone agrees with him! ;D
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What are the benefits of atheism? Religious people can posit what they guess may be the benefits if they wish. Jokes are welcome too.
I'll start.
Benefit Number one: Free Sundays.
-Well, im a pianist and a cantor (precentor? is that the right word?) and i am an ATHEIST, -you can imagine my situation :P I have no free sundays but i am payed for sundays. That says it all, strange...yes
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-Well, im a pianist and a cantor (precentor? is that the right word?) and i am an ATHEIST, -you can imagine my situation :P I have no free sundays but i am payed for sundays. That says it all, strange...yes
I am not an atheist but as a liberal Christian I am considered to be one by the more conservative denominations.
So like you I've been paid to play piano and organ for churches that were horrified by my beliefs.
It rarely caused any trouble, but there was one incident. I was playing for a generic Protestant military service and the current chaplain (they rotate) was hardcore Baptist. By custom if there was no volunteer for an offertory solo I would provide something while the ushers collected the offerings. Do you happen to know the Anglican Psalm Tone S415? It's the typical type of psalm tone where you change chords on the accented syllables of each line, and I was singing the Arise Shine from Isaiah.
Apparently it was too papal for the pastor. He stood there in stunned shock as I sang a couple lines, then stomped over to the organ and yelled "that's enough of that. Play Doxology, now!" Hee, hee. The ushers were only a third of the way down the church aisle but I played Old 100 for them.
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Everyone living ::)
You've completely flipped also. My post was in response to "What's true for me is not true for you" and now we're talking about time. Maybe I should have clarified that. What was true for one Israelite was also true for another AT that time.
Then you agree that the verses in Leviticus are irrelevant, yes?
Then why do you have an issue with gay rights because of the passages in Leviticus?
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Because ceremonial law, moral law, and judicial law are not all the same thing.
https://www.gotquestions.org/ceremonial-law.html
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Benefits of being an atheist:
Being able to think freely and use the scientific method to discover things about the universe. Not having to throw the scientific results out the window because they disagree with your beliefs.
Religion really is a thorn in the side of science.
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Because ceremonial law, moral law, and judicial law are not all the same thing.
https://www.gotquestions.org/ceremonial-law.html
And the homosexuality passages are not "moral".
Also, none of that applies today. You're simply cherry picking.
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An atheist can make up his own mind whether to be prochoice or prolife. That's an advantage.
The Bible is fine with abortion so it's not so simple for the Christian.
(Moses orders women suspected of unfaithfulness to go to a priest and be forced to take the abortion pill. If it turns out she was faithful after all it doesn't hurt her but if she was a slut it will make her "miscarry." )
Also in OT law if you injured a pregnant woman and killed her, you were guilty of murder, but if you caused a miscarriage it was just a misdemeanor and you paid a small fine. Clear evidence the Bible did not consider abortion to be killing.
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Benefit of Atheism- you don't have to depend on an omnipotent being to tell you that you're worthy, nor do you have to listen to the pastors criticize you about how much of a sinner you are.
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Benefit of Atheism- you don't have to depend on an omnipotent being to tell you that you're worthy, nor do you have to listen to the pastors criticize you about how much of a sinner you are.
(https://memecrunch.com/meme/3N2YM/amen-to-that/image.png)
;D
(Some say my belligerence is charming...)
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"Your belligerence is charming~
There, I said it ;)
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(https://cdn.meme.am/instances/61508774.jpg)