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Topic: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)  (Read 17914 times)

Offline practice

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So I am currently learning this piece, but I've encountered something funny. Here is the sheet music:

https://www.free-sheet-music.de/chopin/Walzer%20Op.%2069%20Nr.2%20Fontana-Ausgabe.pdf

Now, when I listen to professional recordings of this piece, it seems to me that measures 13-15 and 29-31 are played slightly differently than it is written here. Also, in professional recordings, I'm pretty sure these measures are played exactly the same, i.e. measures 13-15 = measures 29-31; however, in the sheet music above, if you look, there are slight differences between these two sets of measures. I also feel like there is an extra note in all the professional recordings I've listened to.

If you think I'm nuts, try playing those measures on your piano, then listen to Rubinstein play them:
(18 seconds, 43 seconds). Sound different? But it's not just Rubinstein; literally everyone else plays it the same way.

I honestly think it sounds better the way they play it, but I'm just quite baffled as to why all of them play it that way if the sheet music says something different.

I'm thinking there may be something wrong with my sheet music. Seriously, what the heck.. Can anyone help me out?

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #1 on: April 23, 2009, 05:09:50 AM
This is just something that exists, especially in Chopin, there are different editions. You have the Fontana edition (Fontana was a student and friend of Chopin) and Rubinstein plays in all probability after the Oxford Edition. Often different versions of pieces were published in different countries during Chopin's lifetime:

https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/music/musex.html

Offline practice

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #2 on: April 23, 2009, 05:31:54 AM
Thanks for the reply.

Did Chopin actually write different versions of the piece? And if not, then why did people decide to butcher his music? I just want to play whatever Chopin originally wrote, whichever edition that is. Is that the Oxford Edition? And if it is available on the internet, can someone please link me to it? I'm having trouble finding it with google..

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #3 on: April 23, 2009, 05:48:50 AM
A quote from the editor's remarks of my Paderewski edition, which I use mostly for Chopin:

Quote
Chopin frequently changed details of his compositions up to the very last moment. So much is clear not only from contemporary sources, but also from variants between original editions and manuscripts. Such variants, moreover, cannot possibly be considered to be engravers errors or editorial alterations.

Imo there is no way around buying a good Urtext edition. Like Paderewski or Henle.

Offline practice

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Offline practice

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #5 on: April 23, 2009, 08:06:14 AM
I'd like to play the waltz exactly the way Ashkenazy plays it (in terms of the notes.. obviously I will never be as good as him). Anyone know which edition he uses?

Offline practice

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #6 on: April 23, 2009, 05:57:44 PM
This is really bothering me, so if anyone who is knowledgeable about this could please help, that would be wonderful. Apparently the only other editions I can find on amazon.com that are still in print are the Paderewski edition and the Palmer edition:

https://www.amazon.com/Frederic-Chopin-Waltzes-Scherzos-Paderewski/dp/0486243168/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

https://www.amazon.com/Waltzes-Complete-Alfred-Masterwork-CD/dp/0739047558/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240509215&sr=1-1

Offline Petter

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #7 on: April 23, 2009, 07:55:55 PM
Do you have a link to the Ashkenazy performance? If he plays the phrase in bar 13 in a different rythm then the opening messaures with a acciaccatura on the high F# he's playing the Oxford version. The Fonata version has an even rhythm of 8notes/  quaver in each phrase of the A section.
"A gentleman is someone who knows how to play an accordion, but doesn't." - Al Cohn

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #8 on: April 23, 2009, 08:00:26 PM
So, as I said before, I would go for the Paderewski. Though I can't see if this volume contains both versions and I can't see which one it contains, it seems that it contains only one version, as far as I see from the table of contents. I have a Paderewski edition which contains both versions  :-\

Offline practice

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #9 on: April 23, 2009, 08:32:58 PM
Do you have a link to the Ashkenazy performance? If he plays the phrase in bar 13 in a different rythm then the opening messaures with a acciaccatura on the high F# he's playing the Oxford version. The Fonata version has an even rhythm of 8notes/  quaver in each phrase of the A section.

Unfortunately I don't think the Ashkenazy performance is available on YouTube (I have it on my iTunes). I'm not quite sure what an "acciaccatura" is, but I think I may know what you're talking about. As far as I can tell, the only difference between Ashkenazy's and Rubinstein's versions in these measures are that Rubinstein plays the F# in measure 13 twice before jumping an octave higher (to F# again of course), where as Ashkenazy plays that first F# only once.

Anyway, do you know where I can get a hold of the Oxford edition? I can't find it anywhere.

So, as I said before, I would go for the Paderewski. Though I can't see if this volume contains both versions and I can't see which one it contains, it seems that it contains only one version, as far as I see from the table of contents. I have a Paderewski edition which contains both versions  :-\

Could you please give me the title and copyright of your edition?



Thanks guys~!

Offline Petter

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #10 on: April 23, 2009, 09:46:06 PM
Does Rubinstein play on all three beats in the left hand accompaniment of measures 12 and 13? The Oxford version shows a rest on the third beat in both of these bars. I have a book printed in 1975 fifteenth edition with Paderweski as editor that includes both versions. If you buy a new you'll probably get both, but I'm not 100% certain. Better check with your local musicstore or library.
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Offline victoriachan

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #11 on: November 05, 2022, 10:09:00 PM
I have the Henle version (At the Piano - 17 well-known original pieces, edited by Sylvia Hewig-Tröscher), and also the free Mutopia one I downloaded from IMSLP.org.

One of the differences is that the Henle one has an F# acciaccatura on bar 13, and the Mutopia one doesn't. Listening to Rubinstein's recording, I could hear the acciaccatura. I am not an expert in sight reading, but when I listen to the recording and compare it with the Henle sheet music, it does seem like Rubinstein is playing the Henle version.

Offline lelle

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #12 on: November 10, 2022, 02:55:26 PM
The problem with the Op 69 waltzes is that they exist in (at least) two versions. One written down by Fontana, one of Chopin's students, and one autograph by Chopin himself, which is quite different in some details.

Offline victoriachan

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #13 on: November 23, 2022, 10:30:57 PM
Yes. I can imagine Chopin couldn't help tweaking his work even after giving it away, and ending up with different versions of it. I have problems stopping myself from overworking my projects too.

I've just finished learning the Henle urtext version (the version given to Wilhelm Kolberg by Chopin), and I'm now tempted to try the Fontana version.

Rubinstein plays the Wilhelm Kolberg version, and Rachmaninoff plays the Fontana version in their recordings. They both played it very well, but in comparison, the Fontana version sounds more interesting and dramatic, and I especially like the double notes in the trio section. The Wilhelm Kolberg version can be quite repetitive, though it is also much easier to play.

Offline lelle

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Re: Question about Chopin Waltz in B minor (Op. 69 No. 2)
Reply #14 on: November 24, 2022, 10:03:34 PM
I tend to prefer the Fontana versions for sure.
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