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Topic: When To Move On From Early Beethoven  (Read 1279 times)

Offline flyusx

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When To Move On From Early Beethoven
on: April 26, 2022, 01:46:28 AM
Hello everyone,
I'm looking to finish learning the first movement of Beethoven's Op90 by the end of the year. By finish, I of course mean have the notes down and make a decent interpretation of it (obviously it'll take an entire lifetime to 'perfect' late Beethoven). For what it's worth, my piano teacher is not too hesitant of allowing me to learn the first movement of Op90.
I understand the enormous musical challenges of Op90 and onward. The most relevant experience I have with the style of late Beethoven would be Op10No3, which has both technical and interpretative difficulty (though I doubt 10/3 matches any late Beethoven sonata of any scale). I suppose the questions I'm asking now are...
1) How does the second movement of Op10No3 compare to the interpretative difficulties of later Beethoven sonatas (ie is it a good building block, or are the similarities between the two just superficial)?
2) Am I ready for something like Op90, assuming that I'm willing to spend a year or two perfecting it before performing?

And a more philosophical one: is it better to learn 'easier' late Beethoven and then spend time perfecting it throughout the years, or is it better to hold off for a good amount of time?
Currently Working On
Beethoven Sonate №7

Offline bwl_13

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Re: When To Move On From Early Beethoven
Reply #1 on: April 26, 2022, 02:53:26 AM
Hello everyone,
I'm looking to finish learning the first movement of Beethoven's Op90 by the end of the year. By finish, I of course mean have the notes down and make a decent interpretation of it (obviously it'll take an entire lifetime to 'perfect' late Beethoven). For what it's worth, my piano teacher is not too hesitant of allowing me to learn the first movement of Op90.
I understand the enormous musical challenges of Op90 and onward. The most relevant experience I have with the style of late Beethoven would be Op10No3, which has both technical and interpretative difficulty (though I doubt 10/3 matches any late Beethoven sonata of any scale). I suppose the questions I'm asking now are...
1) How does the second movement of Op10No3 compare to the interpretative difficulties of later Beethoven sonatas (ie is it a good building block, or are the similarities between the two just superficial)?
2) Am I ready for something like Op90, assuming that I'm willing to spend a year or two perfecting it before performing?

And a more philosophical one: is it better to learn 'easier' late Beethoven and then spend time perfecting it throughout the years, or is it better to hold off for a good amount of time?
Op. 90 will be technically fine if you've played Op. 10 No. 3. The only challenging sections are the fast alberti bass and the decorative 16ths in the development.

The slow movement of 10/3 is challenging musically, but these difficulties are more in line with the idea of creating illusions with the piano. Connecting notes, voicing and phrasing passages in interesting ways. Although there is a lot to learn as a pianist from these great works, I don't buy that age and life experience is what makes interpretations interesting. The reason a lot of these slow movements and late sonatas are challenging to pull off is more in the field of pianistic experience (in my view). A lot of it is a matter of taste and context.

For this reason I believe that holding off on learning late Beethoven (or late Schubert, Liszt sonata, Chopin 4th ballade etc.) is pointless. If an average pianist starts learning at age 40 and begins to play these pieces once they are technically ready (however many years that may take), I have a hard time believing their interpretation will be more musically mature than that of a 20something who's been playing all their life and spent years with these pieces. If a pianist is ready for it technically, there's no vague philosophical reason for them to not learn it. These things change and grow over time as a musician continues to learn. If you've had 30 years with a late Beethoven sonata you're bound to know a thing or two about how to play it. If you hold off on learning it and spend less time with it, how do you have the opportunity to explore the musical characteristics with the same depth?

I do believe in learning early Beethoven and familiarizing yourself in the style of composers before delving into their grandest works, but that's more a matter of aquatinting yourself with their sound and style. Beethoven builds, so learning a few early and middle sonatas before taking on Op. 109 is a good idea. You can learn a great deal as to what makes Beethoven special through this process. Also, don't cut Op. 10 No. 3 too short. It's a work that contains a great amount of emotional content and is no doubt comparable to Op. 90 especially.

Anyway I'm still young and have no real qualifications, but this is definitely an interesting concept to explore.
Second Year Undergrad:
Bach BWV 914
Beethoven Op. 58
Reger Op. 24 No. 5
Rachmaninoff Op. 39 No. 3 & No. 5

Offline lelle

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Re: When To Move On From Early Beethoven
Reply #2 on: April 27, 2022, 10:31:37 PM
Personally I think the reverence and fear around playing the late Beethoven sonatas I sometimes see is unnecessary. I played Op. 110 when I was 20 and didn't know diddly squat about anything. I'm almost 30 now and still don't know diddly squat about anything, but I have a bit more life experience and better technique, so I'd play Op. 110 differently now. And that'll continue to change as I age.

You never perfect any interpretation, because there is no such thing in my opinion. You grow and change as a person for (hopefully) as long as you live and your interpretations (hopefully) do so with you.

So I'd say just go for it and play late Beethoven if that is what you are interested in and you can handle the technical demands. It will be a take on late Beethoven that's based on your current emotional and physical evolution. That'll continue to change and that's totally fine.

Offline bwl_13

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Re: When To Move On From Early Beethoven
Reply #3 on: April 28, 2022, 05:43:42 AM
Personally I think the reverence and fear around playing the late Beethoven sonatas I sometimes see is unnecessary. I played Op. 110 when I was 20 and didn't know diddly squat about anything. I'm almost 30 now and still don't know diddly squat about anything, but I have a bit more life experience and better technique, so I'd play Op. 110 differently now. And that'll continue to change as I age.

You never perfect any interpretation, because there is no such thing in my opinion. You grow and change as a person for (hopefully) as long as you live and your interpretations (hopefully) do so with you.

So I'd say just go for it and play late Beethoven if that is what you are interested in and you can handle the technical demands. It will be a take on late Beethoven that's based on your current emotional and physical evolution. That'll continue to change and that's totally fine.
I fully agree. I personally connect with late Beethoven quite a bit but it's unnecessary to give it some sort of godlike treatment that can only be approached by mature and seasoned adults.
Second Year Undergrad:
Bach BWV 914
Beethoven Op. 58
Reger Op. 24 No. 5
Rachmaninoff Op. 39 No. 3 & No. 5

Offline flyusx

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Re: When To Move On From Early Beethoven
Reply #4 on: April 29, 2022, 02:31:40 AM
I would assume a good pathway would be Op90, then perhaps some mid-Beethoven before moving onto Op109?
Currently Working On
Beethoven Sonate №7

Offline lelle

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Re: When To Move On From Early Beethoven
Reply #5 on: May 16, 2022, 06:40:31 PM
I would assume a good pathway would be Op90, then perhaps some mid-Beethoven before moving onto Op109?

I mean as I said I don't think it's necessary to avoid just tackling them head on. But if you want more Beethoven experience you can of course play some early and mid period sonatas first. Op 90 is a fairly approachable sonata except a few bars that raise the difficulty quite a bit so I consider it a good student sonata.

Offline flyusx

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Re: When To Move On From Early Beethoven
Reply #6 on: May 21, 2022, 12:23:35 PM
Op 90 is a fairly approachable sonata except a few bars that raise the difficulty quite a bit

Mmm...those Alberti tenths
Currently Working On
Beethoven Sonate №7

Offline bwl_13

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Re: When To Move On From Early Beethoven
Reply #7 on: May 21, 2022, 04:48:04 PM
Mmm...those Alberti tenths
Those tenths are just as difficult as everyone says...
Second Year Undergrad:
Bach BWV 914
Beethoven Op. 58
Reger Op. 24 No. 5
Rachmaninoff Op. 39 No. 3 & No. 5

Offline kc_gracie

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Re: When To Move On From Early Beethoven
Reply #8 on: June 20, 2022, 08:40:59 PM
I would very much agree with what has been brought up by others...don't avoid these pieces if they are the music that you want to be playing or eventually be playing. Life is too short to neglect things and good music. Will you play it perfectly (if we ever do) if you learn it now? Probably not. However, like others have said, as time goes on, you will be more familiar with the inner workings of the piece/sonata and you will continue getting better at it. I believe there is a comment by Lang Lang (I believe from the documentary on him, which is heartbreaking and wonderful...but definitely sad) about Horowitz playing Traumerei by Schumann. Horowitz played this piece with a touch that can only be achieved by someone playing that piece for decades (even though the piece is quite simple - he literally brought people to tears). Lang Lang then mentioned that he wants to be able to play a piece like that that he has also played for endless amounts of time.

For me, I was very hesitant to start the Waldstein years ago. I finally started and I learned it. Faster than I would have ever guessed. I really loved that piece and so I was very devoted to it. Similarly, I neglected Op.111 until this past year. I was afraid of it to be honest. I finally learned it and I can't be happier. Is it perfect? Not even close. But I get so much joy from playing this piece and I know I will only get better at it through the years.

I know that was a rant, but give it a shot. If it turns out you don't like the sonata in terms of playing it, you will find out. However, if you get that wind of inspiration, don't let it go. My only suggestion would be not to neglect your other repertoire during this time. If this will be a very difficult piece/sonata for you, make sure you have smaller/less challenging pieces that can also push your technique and abilities forward at the same time.

Hope this helps and I would suggest just trying out the sonata that makes you the happiest. What do you have to lose? If you can't do it now, come back to it in the future.

Good luck.

-KC
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