Piano Forum
Piano Board => Student's Corner => Topic started by: outin on January 10, 2013, 10:08:11 PM
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I have never been into Bach. In the beginning I tried a couple of inventions...hated them...the music that is. I just can't make myself learn something I do not want to hear. Since I do have to listen to my playing a lot and the better the playing becomes the more I suffer from listening to it...
Then I tried the pieces in the notebook for AMB...didn't like them at all. The little preludes...same thing.
Tried to listen to WTC...don't like any of them.
So thanks to Enrique I listened to the sinfonias...and I actually like a few of them! :o
So now to my question: Would it be "wrong" to just start with one of those (meaning actually properly learn a Bach piece)? Since I now happen to have the sheet music from Henle and I would need to pick some new piece for my next lesson...I seem to be in a baroque phase now, maybe because of the winter, not in a mood to start romantic compositions at all. And I am getting tired of struggling with my (lack of) reach all the time >:(
From the Baroque era I have only really tried a bit of Telemann (I love some of his fantasies, but I am so slow to learn the fingerings that I always give up), Purcell and Scarlatti of course. I think my teacher would welcome something else for a change.
Any opinions welcome :)
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There is no right or wrong place to start, just easier and more challenging ones. Learning something you like is always easier and much more satisfying than something you hate. So if there are sinfonias you like, start with those. You may face more challenges than if you started with a two part invention, but you'll like the music enough to persevere, and the very fact that you like what you are trying to achieve will help you achieve it.
Oh, and welcome to the club. :D
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Got to admit I'm not too keen on Bach for piano/harpsichord either -- which is slightly weird, since I really do like a lot of the organ literature. But you might find some of the French suites entertaining enough to work on...
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im so happy you've discovered some new music you like!
i agree, i would not neccessarily say that the 2 voice inventions are required pre-requisites to the sinfonias (which i agree with you, i tend to love these a lot, though i like bach and dig the much more popular inventions and wtc, these sinfonias i feel really are special! ).
i say definately go with what you connect with the most. the good thing about these (also the bad thing!), is that even when you get into something really 'difficult' they are all very short! so in terms of total technical demands placed on you (even if the level of writting is very advanced at times), are relatively kept in check by the fact that for each one, there just isn't that much total music to navigate (which again i think is the drawback, i soooo want some of these pieces to go on and on and on....).
have you had a listen to no 15 in b minor? it is an impressive piece! but not nearly as difficult to learn as many of the others (it will take a while perhaps to get the tempo up with those fast arpegios, it does have a lot of energy, but the melodic lines and 3 voice writing is not as difficult to manage which will make the initial learning and reading much more manageable, think more of a back and fourth conversation , question, answer, etc. vs fugue like where all three with the subject and development of the theme at the same time).
this one holds a special place in my heart, it is the first bach work i seriously studied and performed (for a jury) with my previous piano professor (it was in fact the first work i ever studied with him).
i like this one the best of all th yt uploads (gould is up but i actually it's too quick), schiff does it nicely!
this will actually be my next sinfonia (an overdue revisit) when i work back around to working through them next year.
i always thought this was his 'shredder', sinfonia!
(https://www.realiveguitar.com/Images/bach_with_guitar.gif)
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^agreed - No. 15 is the bomb-diggity. Very exciting.
I have listened to that thing on repeat for 2+ hours and not got bored, more than once.
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You should go ahead with the Sinfonias, but make sure you don't turn to the dark side.
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Thanks all :D
I am sure I won't let it go any further, just do a couple of these maybe and then stop :)
Number 15 is supposed to be the easiest (at least if we believe the gradings on this site). But it's not really to my taste. The ones that I prefer are 1, 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13, Number 9 really is the best of these, IMO. But maybe I'll just butcher one of the others first :)
Note reading still is my pitfall so maybe I should choose one with less sharps/flats :P
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I am sure I won't let it go any further, just do a couple of these maybe and then stop :)
The starting out words of every addict in history. :P
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Be vigilant - sinfonias can lead to inventions.
Every sinfonia is doing you damage. Call quitline on 555-4635 Now.
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Be vigilant - sinfonias can lead to inventions.
Every sinfonia is doing you damage. Call quitline on 555-4635 Now.
It's just what the "establishment" is trying to let us believe...brainwashing!
A little trial won't hurt me...I can always quit! Gateway theories are all just BS!
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Got to admit I'm not too keen on Bach for piano/harpsichord either -- which is slightly weird, since I really do like a lot of the organ literature. But you might find some of the French suites entertaining enough to work on...
I think I'd better stay away from pieces that PS has graded 8 something at this point...
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I think I'd better stay away from pieces that PS has graded 8 something at this point...
They contain as many as 8 individual dance movements.. and while collectively they may be difficult for you, there will be individual movements that are within your reach.
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They contain as many as 8 individual dance movements.. and while collectively they may be difficult for you, there will be individual movements that are within your reach.
That's true... but usually I am not into dance type pieces at all...with the exception of the Chopin polonaises...stuff like menuets tend to irritate me :(
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Suite No. 6 in E major, BWV 817
Allemande
Courante
Sarabande
Gavotte
Polonaise
Bourrée
Menuet
Gigue
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Suite No. 6 in E major, BWV 817
Allemande
Courante
Sarabande
Gavotte
Polonaise
Bourrée
Menuet
Gigue
You people are good :P
But I need to go to work now so this has to wait...
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You people are good :P
Think of us as your Bach dealer. ;)
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That's strange that you don't like any Bach's P&F from WTC,it's true that you may not like all of them, exspecially fugues are not easy to understand at first listening. The I and II from book I are not so bad... I studied from book I n° 14 in F# minor and from book II n° 12 and 18 these three are my favourite :) I got through the I keyboard partita in B flat and I found it very interesting to play :) Sinfonias are good to start with poliphonic music exspecially if it's Bach.
You need to play Bach by steps because it's not easy to play it. From the sinfonias I studied n 3 and n 11. English or French suites are good to start either.If you never tried out any Bach pieces you ought to start with the easy one or if you don't love Bach too much you can play othe baroque music such as Scarlatti and Soler Sonatas, Paradisi or Marcello pieces, Italian harpsichordist wrote interesting pieces :). But if you want a big advice you should attempt to learn Bach music, i did improve a lot in technique exspecially after studing fugues from WTC it helps more than 10 etudes all together trust it!
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I have never been into Bach.
That is no surprise for me because you need a well-tempered ear to listen to most of it. Actually, to get you into Bach, I would not advise you to listen to his work too much initially, but instead find good jazz improvisations on some of his tunes. They can be really fun. For example this one by Bobby McFerrin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQqrf6CWgQc) (Based on the famous Largo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9t8DZc8ELE) from the concerto No.5 in F Minor, BWV 1056) or this Salute to Bach (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPPQLzwCosI) by the Oscar Peterson Trinity...
Paul
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Bach is so compelling that even if you don't like Bach you like Bach. Wait...What?
Anyways, welcome to that club, J_menz is arranging a Bach party tonight, don't forget the wig! :)
Back to the March in D Major^^.
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Thanks all :D
I am sure I won't let it go any further, just do a couple of these maybe and then stop :)
Number 15 is supposed to be the easiest (at least if we believe the gradings on this site). But it's not really to my taste. The ones that I prefer are 1, 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13, Number 9 really is the best of these, IMO. But maybe I'll just butcher one of the others first :)
Note reading still is my pitfall so maybe I should choose one with less sharps/flats :P
apparently made extra super popular by the modern literary porno fifty shades of grey (partly accounts for the super high view counts of what was for a while a relatively obscure /minor bach transcription )
how about this (i furnished the score only because it seems to be next to impossible to dig up-it may be on imslp i just didn't search there, actually it should/very likely could be there-- easily on the interwebs, maybe i just didn't google correcty when i tried again today, at least i found it before. i don't believe this/or this edition at least in in print. if ps.com has it for sale, let me know i'll promtply remove, also lots of hoop jumping over here, i had to take tif and convert to jpeg. then jpeg to pdf, then pdf 1 pdf 2 to pdf merge....ugh ::))
BE VERY CAREFUL, ONCE YOU'RE ALL STRUNG OUT ON BACH, LIKE ME, YOU START TO MOVE ON TO OTHER STUFF (AS WAS STATED), YOU EVEN START TO PREFER BACH VERSIONS OF PIECES BY FOLKS OTHER THAN BACH, AND THEN ALSO VERSIONS OF BACH BY FOLKS OTHER THAN BACH :o
*flies off
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if you don't love Bach too much you can play othe baroque music such as Scarlatti and Soler Sonatas, Paradisi or Marcello pieces, Italian harpsichordist wrote interesting pieces :).
Actually my main goal is to play all the Scarlatti sonatas before I die, but I do have a few to go (about 550 :) I will have to speed up a little, since 4 per year would mean I would have to live 137 year more... :(
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That is no surprise for me because you need a well-tempered ear to listen to most of it.
I have absolutely no intention to temper my ears, they are free to do as they please and I will oblige ;)
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how about this (i furnished the score only because it seems to be next to impossible to dig up-it may be on imslp i just didn't search there, actually it should/very likely could be there-- easily on the interwebs, maybe i just didn't google correcty when i tried again today, at least i found it before. i don't believe this/or this edition at least in in print. if ps.com has it for sale, let me know i'll promtply remove, also lots of hoop jumping over here, i had to take tif and convert to jpeg. then jpeg to pdf, then pdf 1 pdf 2 to pdf merge....ugh ::))
Whats going on here! Where are the narcs when they are needed ???
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Thank you so much for posting the score, Enrique, you're precious! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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That is no surprise for me because you need a well-tempered ear to listen to most of it. Actually, to get you into Bach, I would not advise you to listen to his work too much initially, but instead find good jazz improvisations on some of his tunes. They can be really fun. For example this one by Bobby McFerrin (Based on the famous Largo from the concerto No.5 in F Minor, BWV 1056) or this Salute to Bach by the Oscar Peterson Trinity...
Paul
Indeed many musicians improvise on Bach's music. Check out Emerson Lake and Palmer's version of BWV 812 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGQYXqUqslc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGQYXqUqslc)
The bach piece starts at 3:21. (There is also some Janacek in it in this song)
Now, listen to the Bach original, you might enjoy it :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCBKknvTtG8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCBKknvTtG8)
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Well... My teacher and I agreed today that I play one invention first and then the sinfonias. I didn't resist because she played the invention so nicely to me :)
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Well... My teacher and I agreed today that I play one invention first and then the sinfonias. I didn't resist because she played the invention so nicely to me :)
right on!
(https://www.questiontechnology.org/photos/uncategorized/9_12_06.gif)
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Well... My teacher and I agreed today that I play one invention first and then the sinfonias. I didn't resist because she played the invention so nicely to me :)
Which one is it to be?
*I told you sinfonias would lead to inventions.
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Which one is it to be?
*I told you sinfonias would lead to inventions.
Nr 13
Unfortunately I haven't even started...haven't touched the piano since Monday :(
Our new organization has a deadline next Monday and my working hours have been between 12-14 hours...too tired to do anything after coming home and taken care of the pack...
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...haven't touched the piano since Monday :(...
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Well, I squeezed in 15 minutes this morning and tonight I came home early enough to practice some...I was getting serious withdrawal symptoms...Haven't started the Bach yet though...soon...
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Well, I squeezed in 15 minutes this morning and tonight I came home early enough to practice some...I was getting serious withdrawal symptoms...Haven't started the Bach yet though...soon...
Number 13 is a nice one. You don't have to practise it on the instrument right away, outin. Take your time to appreciate all the details while just listening, determining fingering, phrasing, etc. Take a recording that you can actually follow with your ears, voice by voice. Glen Gould, for example, plays it rather fast, so you may not be able to follow all the details. I would suggest something like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ws-xa-S5Q). Not that it is such great playing or something, but you can still learn a lot from it.
Paul
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Number 13 is a nice one. You don't have to practise it on the instrument right away, outin. Take your time to appreciate all the details while just listening, determining fingering, phrasing, etc. Take a recording that you can actually follow with your ears, voice by voice. Glen Gould, for example, plays it rather fast, so you may not be able to follow all the details. I would suggest something like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ws-xa-S5Q). Not that it is such great playing or something, but you can still learn a lot from it.
I actually prefer playing pieces "cold" the rare occasions it's possible... It's sometimes nice not to have a ready fixed image of what the piece should sound.
I just read through some of it and immediately remembered why I hate to learn these... Because it is very painful for me to read this type of notation (It's a bit difficult to explain my reading problems to a "normal" person, but it's too monotonous, I cannot perceive what's written on the staff). Memorizing will take me ages... I wonder if I am motivated enough. But at least I've tried ;D
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I have been a good girl and learned the first 6 measures. After fixing the fingerings it's not difficult really, but it's good practice for hand independence...
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^agreed - No. 15 is the bomb-diggity. Very exciting.
I have listened to that thing on repeat for 2+ hours and not got bored, more than once.
Are you serious, bro? Did you go surfing afterwards? Did you taste pink jelly beans like bananas? Lol
It is pretty cool though. I didn't like bach either. It grows on you! You'll like the WTC. You'll love learning p and fs. We all get old....
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the thread title reminded me of this
(https://i.canvasugc.com/ugc/original/b68c97e49f64dbec4ca58496a737dc1166063840.png)
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Well, whatever I learned completely fell to pieces at my lesson ;D
Had one of my worse days, could not concentrate on playing at all and had to force myself, which never works. My mind just goes blank.
And then she wanted me to try another fingering in one measure, which completely messed up the rest...
After my brain refused any co-operation we tried once again to work on my right hand octaves for the Chopin nocturne and I got depressed, I simply cannot reach them because of my thumb.
Back to work then, and try to do at least the rest of the first page until next time...
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Well, whatever I learned completely fell to pieces at my lesson ;D
Had one of my worse days, could not concentrate on playing at all and had to force myself, which never works. My mind just goes blank.
And then she wanted me to try another fingering in one measure, which completely messed up the rest...
After my brain refused any co-operation we tried once again to work on my right hand octaves for the Chopin nocturne and I got depressed, I simply cannot reach them because of my thumb.
Back to work then, and try to do at least the rest of the first page until next time...
My day went opposite yours. After having two days of bloating and cramps in prep and then a hospital procedure yesterday, finally in the evening I felt a bit more like myself, managed to get a half hour in at the piano. Working on Moments Musical (Schubert, Op 94 No 3). Did some scale and chord work the night before and it applied well for me last night in the piece. I'm a long ways from it being prepared but no real downers last night. That was good. I'm just getting back into some more traditional level 7 work after my time away. I selected this piece to do the day after Christmas, just getting to it now.
I got derailed over the digital piano experience and of course more David Nevue work to go along with the digital ( the wife is really getting into stringed orchestral sounds and piano combined on some of David's pieces, one in particular)..
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Well, whatever I learned completely fell to pieces at my lesson ;D
Had one of my worse days, could not concentrate on playing at all and had to force myself, which never works. My mind just goes blank.
And then she wanted me to try another fingering in one measure, which completely messed up the rest...
After my brain refused any co-operation we tried once again to work on my right hand octaves for the Chopin nocturne and I got depressed, I simply cannot reach them because of my thumb.
Back to work then, and try to do at least the rest of the first page until next time...
I managed to double post this quote in a computer bog down, sorry about that !
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My day went opposite yours. After having two days of bloating and cramps in prep and then a hospital procedure yesterday, finally in the evening I felt a bit more like myself, managed to get a half hour in at the piano.
Good to hear you are doing better now!
I have shown my right hand to 2 doctors and they both agreed that there's districted movement because of a shortened tendon/joint problem, but since there's no pain, problems in everyday activity or signs of arthritis it's not a real medical problem...
Try explaining that I NEED that movement to play a Chopin nocturne properly and they just look at you like what does it matter, you are not a professional pianist or anything, just play something else >:(
I may just have to redo my goals and forget about ever playing Chopin/Scriabin/whatever and just stick to my Scarlatti who almost never expects me to do RH octaves... :'(
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Why cant you do octaves? You cant reach? Its ok to roll them. Even if youre a professional pianist. Although rolling is hard! But just concentrate on the sound, if you listen for the right notes, youll sound them perfectly.
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Why cant you do octaves? You cant reach? Its ok to roll them. Even if youre a professional pianist. Although rolling is hard! But just concentrate on the sound, if you listen for the right notes, youll sound them perfectly.
I can't reach. There are passages where rolling just would not work even if I could do it well. And I am a hopeless perfectionist, I'll hear the difference myself :(
But maybe one day I'll get a 7/8 keyboard...that would do the trick :)
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I can't reach. There are passages where rolling just would not work even if I could do it well. And I am a hopeless perfectionist, I'll hear the difference myself :(
But maybe one day I'll get a 7/8 keyboard...that would do the trick :)
Ya you could do that or just be a harpsi player or play organ.
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Ya you could do that or just be a harpsi player or play organ.
I don't really like the sound of either...It's either piano or nothing...But I'm not a quitter, I just complain a lot :)
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Good to hear you are doing better now!
I have shown my right hand to 2 doctors and they both agreed that there's districted movement because of a shortened tendon/joint problem, but since there's no pain, problems in everyday activity or signs of arthritis it's not a real medical problem...
Try explaining that I NEED that movement to play a Chopin nocturne properly and they just look at you like what does it matter, you are not a professional pianist or anything, just play something else >:(
I may just have to redo my goals and forget about ever playing Chopin/Scriabin/whatever and just stick to my Scarlatti who almost never expects me to do RH octaves... :'(
Thanks !
My first thought about your octave situation was just break the octaves. Then I saw your perfectionist reply. Well, that sounds silly to me. You have a deficient hand problem, it's mechanical in nature, so be it, break the octaves. I always think back to my teacher with her crippled hands all deformed with arthritis when these things come up. She could blow my Bach playing out of the water. She always broke octaves, even with fast passages between them. She just did it, years of experience ( she was also the church organist and director of music at the Catholic church in town here). But she told me anything you can't reach, break it rather than strain it. And she was right, lets face it at some point all of us can't span something, so it has to get broken.
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My first thought about your octave situation was just break the octaves. Then I saw your perfectionist reply. Well, that sounds silly to me. You have a deficient hand problem, it's mechanical in nature, so be it, break the octaves.
You are right...perfectionism is a curse sometimes.
Of course it's ok to break the octaves...If I could do it well enough to make it sound ok I would...but so far I can't. And don't have time to practice it with all that Bach...sigh...
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This damn invention...I have probably tried every reasonable fingering and I can't play fast or memorize properly...There's always some places that feel awkward and uncomfortable for my hands. The only way I can play some parts comfortably is with my long fingers close to the fallboard and with my upright that's hard to do without getting tension. It seems my hand shape, my instrument and the writing are incompatible >:(
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There's always some places that feel awkward and uncomfortable for my hands.
Bar numbers?
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Bar numbers?
Don't have the sheet here but I have problems with almost every bar on the first page when trying to speed up. My teacher thought the fingering was fine and it felt so on her grand. But at home it just doesn't work.
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Don't have the sheet here but I have problems with almost every bar on the first page when trying to speed up. My teacher thought the fingering was fine and it felt so on her grand. But at home it just doesn't work.
interesting. Is your pianos action heavier?
What specifically is the problem with speeding up.. feels tense?
Have you tried using parallel set practice?
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This damn invention...I have probably tried every reasonable fingering and I can't play fast or memorize properly...There's always some places that feel awkward and uncomfortable for my hands. The only way I can play some parts comfortably is with my long fingers close to the fallboard and with my upright that's hard to do without getting tension. It seems my hand shape, my instrument and the writing are incompatible >:(
You should give more examples of this. Are you holding some notes while trying to play? It is really hard to reach without enough motion of the hands...i have a haard time with repeating notes.
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interesting. Is your pianos action heavier?
What specifically is the problem with speeding up.. feels tense?
Have you tried using parallel set practice?
My piano is ok when I play in the front half of the white keys, but when going deep between the black keys gets difficult to play fast. And with my hand shape I seem to end up there all the time...
The problems are with the right hand, even the first measure. The 1-2 stretch from e-a I can only do if I extend my 2nd finger and then I already end up deep in the keys. If I use 3 instead I get trouble later in the measure.
In general my thumb slows me down and forces me to adjust my hand all the time.
When I speep up I either get tense or if I try not to I play the wrong notes. I have tríed HS, practicing blind (which usually helps for me) varying the touch and speed but see little progress. Don't really know much about the parallel set thing.
I feel frustrated because this piece is not musically challenging and I got the hands together pretty easily, but I can't get the mechanics right...
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Try applying what you learnt to another invention! You need to figure out what stops you when closer to fall board. You could try curving your fingers less! Use a flatter position. Do you have a teacher? Which invention is it?
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In general my thumb slows me down and forces me to adjust my hand all the time.
These guys claim you don't need to use it at all.
https://www.schott-music.com/shop/Sheet_Music/Piano_Harpsichord_Harp/Piano_Harpsichord/1261763/show,42134,s.html (https://www.schott-music.com/shop/Sheet_Music/Piano_Harpsichord_Harp/Piano_Harpsichord/1261763/show,42134,s.html)
:o
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Try applying what you learnt to another invention! You need to figure out what stops you when closer to fall board. You could try curving your fingers less! Use a flatter position. Do you have a teacher? Which invention is it?
Yes, I have a teacher. Nro 13. I already play with flatter fingers because I can't reach the legato parts otherwise.
This problem is not anything new really, but most of my pieces are slow so I can handle it.
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These guys claim you don't need to use it at all.
https://www.schott-music.com/shop/Sheet_Music/Piano_Harpsichord_Harp/Piano_Harpsichord/1261763/show,42134,s.html (https://www.schott-music.com/shop/Sheet_Music/Piano_Harpsichord_Harp/Piano_Harpsichord/1261763/show,42134,s.html)
:o
;D
My piece is not there unfortunately...and I wonder, would it work on a piano?
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Ive played that one. Tell me what fingerings you are using, and where it doesnt work, or a snap shot of wtitten fingerings and i can help.
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would it work on a piano?
I've never played a real live harpsichord, so can't tell if the difference would be significant in this respect.
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When I speed up I either get tense or if I try not to I play the wrong notes.
This just means you are not ready to "speed up" (how I hate that word and that approach!). You need to do lots of HANDS SEPARATELY in short fragments. Sing each motive first, and then play, not faster than you can sing it, and certainly not faster than is convenient. Keep in mind that true legato in Bach's time was considered bad taste, so do yourself a favor and don't try to tie things that should not be tied.
I feel frustrated because this piece is not musically challenging and I got the hands together pretty easily, but I can't get the mechanics right...
You are mistaken. It is the musical challenges that cause your mechanics to break down. See above.
P.S.: Here is a nice analysis of the invention: Two versions of the A minor invention (https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2022/3439/NeumeyerTwoVersionsBachV4.pdf) for you to appreciate how "musically unchallenging" this thing really is. ;)
Paul
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You could try 13431343525 for the first bar (RH) - it avoids the 1-2 stretch and shouldn't get you into trouble.
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Ive played that one. Tell me what fingerings you are using, and where it doesnt work, or a snap shot of wtitten fingerings and i can help.
Don't have my book here and I can never remember my fingerings unless at the piano...but looking at the sheet on PS I realized there's one combination that I have not tried...need to try it out later...
I have decided not to go futher on the piece this week unless I have the beginning sorted out. And if we still can't in my next lesson I'll just drop the piece and wait until I get a harpsichord or a nice little grand with easier action. I already notice that practicing this piece is having negative effect on my other playing because of the tension and tiredness it causes.
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My piano is ok when I play in the front half of the white keys, but when going deep between the black keys gets difficult to play fast. And with my hand shape I seem to end up there all the time...
The problems are with the right hand, even the first measure. The 1-2 stretch from e-a I can only do if I extend my 2nd finger and then I already end up deep in the keys. If I use 3 instead I get trouble later in the measure.
In general my thumb slows me down and forces me to adjust my hand all the time.
I won't offer anything without being able to see what you're doing.. you can send me a video if you like though and I may be able to offer something to help negotiate the stretch without getting stuck.. however, I would hope your teacher offers some help at a coming lesson anyway if it is infact a technical concern.
I feel frustrated because this piece is not musically challenging and I got the hands together pretty easily, but I can't get the mechanics right...
That's batshit insane. Given its a first invention... If this is not musically challenging you're not processing the counterpoint.. or you're a genius.
Don't really know much about the parallel set thing.
If you feel like reading... they will almost undoubtedly solve your problem if you apply them correctly.
https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.II.10 - chord attack/gravity drops
https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.II.11 - parallel sets
https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.20 - parallel sets in bach inventions
https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.7.2 - advanced paralell sets for overall technical diagnosis
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You are mistaken. It is the musical challenges that cause your mechanics to break down. See above.
I am sorry, but I cannot agree with that. My teacher heard me play and felt it was good both stylistically and musically (when I could get it right once). I can sing the piece easily and know exactly how I want it to sound, that is not the problem here.
I agree that I am not ready to speed up, but the problem is that no amount of practicing even tiny fragments will get me ready until I get the hand movements to be more comfortable.
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no amount of practicing even tiny fragments will get me ready until I get the hand movements to be more comfortable.
This is what parallel sets do.
....
on the musical front - if you can play one hand and sing the other without also playing it I'd be convinced.
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https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.20 - parallel sets in bach inventions
Obviously the writer uses a lot of concepts that I am not familiar with. But If I understood what he says about this specific invention, it's a about the same as what my teacher told me to do, think about the note groups as chords and prepare my hand?
Oops, deleted my previous post. I guess it doesn't matter. Just explained that I am not just being arrogant about the piece or my abilities. I have played two voice material and baroque style before, even though this is my first Bach invention. My teacher has said several times that I have the ability to play musically, just don't have the physical technique and lack the ability "to let go". But musical ideas just form in my mind easily, it's not that I have much undestanding about the theory behind the music.
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This is what parallel sets do.
....
on the musical front - if you can play one hand and sing the other without also playing it I'd be convinced.
I can do that. But not fast :)
Actually the bloody thing is going on in my head all the time now...I have lately realized that I can handle two voices in my head. But I doubt I will never be able to handle three so that's the limit of my musical abilities when it comes to counterpoint. I can play some easy three voice stuff rather convincingly but it's more like faking than actually hearing the voices.
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I agree that I am not ready to speed up, but the problem is that no amount of practicing even tiny fragments will get me ready until I get the hand movements to be more comfortable.
Is the first note by itself (without playing the other notes) difficult to play? How about the second note without the other notes (even without the first)? As soon as you realize that principle, you can play two notes, then three, etc. keeping that same sense of comfort and without forcing the speed. Drop the idea of STRETCHING!
Paul
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Is the first note by itself (without playing the other notes) difficult to play? How about the second note without the other notes (even without the first)? As soon as you realize that principle, you can play two notes, then three, etc. keeping that same sense of comfort and without forcing the speed. Drop the idea of STRETCHING!
Actually the first note is difficult to play because I have to use my thumb :P
No seriously, I know what you mean, but it is not so easy to not do any streching when you relaxed reach is hardly a 6th. Children seem to be able to do better, but they are flexible everywhere, while I struggle with moving my arms freely and also have to adjust my long fingers to the keyboard. If my hand was actually just small I think I would not have all these problems, since my left is no bigger and it works fine.
I also agree about not forcing the speed. Obviously I CAN play the thing faster because I did once at my lesson, I just cannot do it consistently and practicing with my own piano seems to not do what it's supposed to do.
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P.S.: Here is a nice analysis of the invention: Two versions of the A minor invention (https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2022/3439/NeumeyerTwoVersionsBachV4.pdf) for you to appreciate how "musically unchallenging" this thing really is. ;)
Is this a pissing contest? :)
EDIT: Surely one can write a 100 page thesis about the most simple looking thing, because everything is complex if analyzed deeply enough. And every piece is challenging when you get to the point of making it meaningful and as close to perfect as you can.
Obviously I did not mean that there is no challenge. What I meant was that I did not find it difficult (and remember, we are talking about the first 6 bars) to grasp after sitting down with it for a couple of hours. I never forget a rhythm, melody, theme or "how the piece goes" after hearing/playing it through once or twice. They go to some other memory in my brain. What I cannot remember is what my hands are supposed to do, what position to take and which finger is supposed to play. I seem to not be able to connect my physical memory to that other memory. This does not apply to singing, those parts of my body I can syncronize easily with the musical ideas coming from my mind. I would need to get the same connection from my brain to the keys as I have from my brain to my throat (and torso obviously), but it just seems hopeless...like my hands do not belong to the same system at all...
Then again I have on rare occasions experienced the feeling of unity and easiness with the piano as well, that's what keeps me going even if it is so rare and I do not know how to achieve it by will.
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I also agree about not forcing the speed. Obviously I CAN play the thing faster because I did once at my lesson, I just cannot do it consistently and practicing with my own piano seems to not do what it's supposed to do.
OK. I will no longer bother you with instructions. The only thing I want you to realize is that if you have never played any pieces like these, it is FAR FROM EASY and needs time getting used to. It would be a pitty to draw the wrong conclusions and drop the whole thing.
Paul
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Is this a pissing contest? :)
Have I ever given the impression with my posts that I am one to engage in such silly contests or encourage others to do so? ;)
I just gave this analysis for you to see that the structure of the piece is not as simple as the notes themselves would suggest.
Paul
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I just gave this analysis for you to see that the structure of the piece is not as simple as the notes themselves would suggest.
Which I can only agree, see above. Bad choice of words obviously from my part.
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OK. I will no longer bother you with instructions. The only thing I want you to realize is that if you have never played any pieces like these, it is FAR FROM EASY and needs time getting used to. It would be a pitty to draw the wrong conclusions and drop the whole thing.
The problem in giving instructions is that they only work if they can be applied. Obviously I get a lot of instructions from my teacher but it is me who has to put them into practice. The limitations I have only I can truly be aware. Generalisations about problems with a certain piece sometimes are spot on, but they are not necessarily so. I am a grown person with a huge amount of knowlegde already that I can apply, not a teenager with delusions about learning to play without any work. I have spent the last 18 months in trying to work out these problems, it's not that they appeared in this piece, so I have a larger perspective into it.
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You could try 13431343525 for the first bar (RH) - it avoids the 1-2 stretch and shouldn't get you into trouble.
I'll better try that, I guess I was just too lazy to start again from the beginning with the fingerings :)
EDIT: Even after just a few tries it seems quite natural and easy this way. So I think I will just have analyze the fingerings again for the rest as well. Thanks :)
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Don't have my book here and I can never remember my fingerings unless at the piano...but looking at the sheet on PS I realized there's one combination that I have not tried...need to try it out later...
I have decided not to go futher on the piece this week unless I have the beginning sorted out. And if we still can't in my next lesson I'll just drop the piece and wait until I get a harpsichord or a nice little grand with easier action. I already notice that practicing this piece is having negative effect on my other playing because of the tension and tiredness it causes.
Ok. Practice hands separately! Youll find what trips you up. Idk how people learn. Usually i go hands together if i can first. Then hands apart again is so important! Also, the accents help the musical ideas come out, aka left hand staccato, right hand legato simultaneously.
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I love the Bach family, especially Johann Sebastian and Friedemann,
and I am not too sure, because I am a beginne,r
but I always feel they both don't want to be played too fast.
I am also wondering whether the understanding of the correct speed
in how to play on the keyboard
was in Bach's time the same as is our speed in 2013?
I wish you good luck with your discovery and all the best from Kristina.
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on the musical front - if you can play one hand and sing the other without also playing it I'd be convinced.
I had never thought of practicing like this but it is actually much more fun than just playing HS, thanks for the tip. The only problem is that I cannot do the whole thing because there's no way I could hit the notes below C on the LH no matter how much I try...
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The only problem is that I cannot do the whole thing because there's no way I could hit the notes below C on the LH no matter how much I try...
Half a bottle of scotch and a few cigars every day for a week are good for an extra half octave or so.
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Half a bottle of scotch and a few cigars every day for a week are good for an extra half octave or so.
I doubt it, I already can go lower than 90% of my sex...maybe due to the fact that I really liked scotch when younger? Still do but my intestines don't :(
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Its true... i reached a 10th today! I have pictures! I did it comfortably without stretching. Im female, average european size....
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Its true... i reached a 10th today! I have pictures! I did it comfortably without stretching. Im female, average european size....
Great! How much scotch did you need to do that? :D
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Well...it takes a couple years for it to kick in....
Lame joke but hey, do you feel pain when stretching to reach notes in the pieces you are working on?
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Well...it takes a couple years for it to kick in....
Lame joke but hey, do you feel pain when stretching to reach notes in the pieces you are working on?
Maybe some discomfort but not really pain, only when my hand gets to a bad position. I think I have already reached my limit in strech because I can get my thumb and pinkie to a straight line. If I could get my RH thumb fully open without the tip turning outwards, I could do a so and so ninth (I can with my left) but now this happens after a 7th and no matter what I do it will hit the note above when playing an octave on white keys. I can do it on the black keys obviously because there's no key to hit there.
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Its ok. It starts out difficult to do evetything right, hit right notes and avoid others and pedaling while listening to so many sounds, trying to make music out of it. Its like a baby trying to walk in high heels. Once you learn how to walk barefoot, and then in regular shoes.....em....youll get used to it and gain expetience, knowledge and skill to play (at least some) of the pieces you want! I promise! Dont give up on the invention. Have some discipline and use those problem solving skills.
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Its ok. It starts out difficult to do evetything right, hit right notes and avoid others and pedaling while listening to so many sounds, trying to make music out of it. Its like a baby trying to walk in high heels. Once you learn how to walk barefoot, and then in regular shoes.....em....youll get used to it and gain expetience, knowledge and skill to play (at least some) of the pieces you want! I promise! Dont give up on the invention. Have some discipline and use those problem solving skills.
I do enjoy solving problems...it's routines that I have more trouble with. Certain problems with my physique I just can't solve myself and that is really annoying, unsolvable problems is not something I encounter often. There's usually always a solution to be found...
I don't give up easily (and I won't on this one yet), but sometimes it is the best thing to do if practicing makes more harm than good. I have worked so hard to get rid of some tensions and I don't want to be back where I started.
If nothing else works I guess I could always decide that this piece actually sounds better played very slowly...BTW I just looked at the manuscript on PS and there is no tempo indication at all? Are there notes by Bach elsewhere or did someone else invent those?
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I do enjoy solving problems...it's routines that I have more trouble with. Certain problems with my physique I just can't solve myself and that is really annoying, unsolvable problems is not something I encounter often. There's usually always a solution to be found...
I don't give up easily (and I won't on this one yet), but sometimes it is the best thing to do if practicing makes more harm than good. I have worked so hard to get rid of some tensions and I don't want to be back where I started.
If nothing else works I guess I could always decide that this piece actually sounds better played very slowly...BTW I just looked at the manuscript on PS and there is no tempo indication at all? Are there notes by Bach elsewhere or did someone else invent those?
Good! Think zen. Find your center. Not too much repetition but not too little. I have the schrimer edition for the inventions. Supposedly, the metronome was patented in the 19th century. It is argued whether he used tempo indications specifically, but your guess as good as mine. Pkay it how it sounds best and expresses the most...i pay most attention to word markings and notes.
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If nothing else works I guess I could always decide that this piece actually sounds better played very slowly...BTW I just looked at the manuscript on PS and there is no tempo indication at all? Are there notes by Bach elsewhere or did someone else invent those?
Bach almost never used tempo marks. With the dance movements of the suites I suppose there was a general understanding of what would be appropriate, and there are a few specific markings scattered around elsewhere, but mostly it is up to the performer. Your teacher will, no doubt, also have an opinion as to how fast you should play it based on pedagogical factors as well as musical ones.
Given your RH thumb issue, you are going to have to be creative with your fingering, but there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to play this prestissimo if you want.
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The type of fingering I showed you, using the 1-3 rather than 1-2 and relying more on 3, 4 and 5 than other people might, will work, I think, for this Invention.
It won't work for everything, though, so there is another technique you need to consider. It is essentially the same as is used in more advanced pieces, such as Chopin 10/1, and if you didn't have the thumb issue you wouldn't really need it until then. With your thumb, though, it will be very useful much earlier.
Basically, you need to learn to move your whole hand when you move from 1 to 2, just enough so you don't have to stretch more than is comfortable/reliable. Not exactly a leap, but a bit like one. Hard to explain, but if you have a look at AJs Chopin 10/1 Project thread you'll get some good information and demo vids of what's involved.
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The type of fingering I showed you, using the 1-3 rather than 1-2 and relying more on 3, 4 and 5 than other people might, will work, I think, for this Invention.
It won't work for everything, though, so there is another technique you need to consider. It is essentially the same as is used in more advanced pieces, such as Chopin 10/1, and if you didn't have the thumb issue you wouldn't really need it until then. With your thumb, though, it will be very useful much earlier.
Basically, you need to learn to move your whole hand when you move from 1 to 2, just enough so you don't have to stretch more than is comfortable/reliable. Not exactly a leap, but a bit like one. Hard to explain, but if you have a look at AJs Chopin 10/1 Project thread you'll get some good information and demo vids of what's involved.
I think I know what you mean. But I would expect to have a brand new thumb before I am able to play any of the Chopin etudes :P
But luckily I have a finger expert to consult again if I get into trouble ;D
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With some of the technical issues resolved I am finding myself in the so familiar situation...
My time on the piano has been very little this week. I do have the good excuse of working very late every evening, but I am sure I still could have found the time and strentgh to more practice if I really wanted to. But I have no desire because I am not working with something I really want to learn. I also don't have my usual weekend itch to get to the piano (on Saturdays I tend to wait untill noon before starting to torture my neighbours). This has happened a few times before, it seems like a pattern. Last time it was a classial piece. Now it's this Bach. I can make myself sit at the piano and when I do I do feel ok, but it's not what it normally is, I feel like I am just drilling something and I am not fully present. This probably is why it's so hard to memorize. It never happens when I have something under work that I really want to learn because of the music, not just because I feel I should. Deep down I know this kind of music is not why I want to learn the piano and it kills my interest. I can try to fool myself for a while trying to say to myself that the piece if alright, but really it's just not in any way interesting to me. And I am not a kind of person who "goes with the flood", I have no discipline that way. Of course I have to do boring things at work, but I only need to invest a small amount of my time and then I can move on. Not possible with piano.
I am actually pining to work on another piece and while for an average person it might work to just tell myself that I work on this one first and then I get to do the other one, it won't work. I am restless and unable to concentrate on what I am doing. I am not a kind of person who could look at a cake and think I will eat it later :P
Sometimes it's just wise to listen to oneself and even if dropping a piece means giving up, it's still better than not practicing at all...and I don't feel the time was completely wasted anyway, I am sure I learned a few things :)
It actually makes sense to me now why I never learned to play as a child and was so happy to drop the piano. Those endless lessons with books full of pieces that I had no enjoyment from and which I never properly learned. I was sometimes secretly trying to learn pieces from my older sister's books (I remember an easy arrangement of a Chopin nocturne that I played by myself but never thought I could tell my teacher). But those days one was supposed to learn everything in order. Maybe my present motivation issues are some sort of uncounsciouss reaction to those childhood lessons?
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With some of the technical issues resolved I am finding myself in the so familiar situation...
I am actually pining to work on another piece and while for an average person it might work to just tell myself that I work on this one first and then I get to do the other one, it won't work. I am restless and unable to concentrate on what I am doing. I am not a kind of person who could look at a cake and think I will eat it later :P
Sometimes it's just wise to listen to oneself and even if dropping a piece means giving up, it's still better than not practicing at all...and I don't feel the time was completely wasted anyway, I am sure I learned a few things :)
It actually makes sense to me now why I never learned to play as a child and was so happy to drop the piano. Those endless lessons with books full of pieces that I had no enjoyment from and which I never properly learned. I was sometimes secretly trying to learn pieces from my older sister's books (I remember an easy arrangement of a Chopin nocturne that I played by myself but never thought I could tell my teacher). But those days one was supposed to learn everything in order. Maybe my present motivation issues are some sort of uncounsciouss reaction to those childhood lessons?
However this goes for you, let me say that this week I can fully see your points ! It's just been one of those weeks for me too. As to Bach, it's not like he's ever been easy or anything ! What ever route you take, ever onward.
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Hi Outin,
Is there any chance your teacher is missing something basic about your posture, sitting position, height of the bench, anything like that? Any one of those things being off could lead to a good bit of tension. The problems you are describing do sound like tension is an issue. That's the sort of thing that only someone watching you play for a while could recognize and solve. You might consider springing for a lesson or two with a different teacher just to see if a different perspective will help.
Bill
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My first Bach piece ever was Prelude in C (WTC Bk1 no1). I didn't have the sheet music for it and the internet wasn't like it was today so I learned it from a tape recording :)
I thought... wow Bach is so beautiful and easy! But then I came to his part writing and got very scared. My first exam ever (grade 2 AMEB) the Bach took me forever to learn, and this was such easy music compared to what I had learned already (I had played Beethoven Sonatas). What I found so difficult was the fingering and coordination part writing posed. It wasn't until I got good at sight reading that I really appreciated the beauty of Bach and especially how important it was to be able to sight read his part writing as a test for overall piano fingering understanding and coordination.
I really liked learning repetitive pattern bach (and teach a lot of it now).... If that is something you can say :P Something that repeat a pattern over and over again. BWV 999 is one that springs to mind as a popular simple pattern piece, there is of course so many more. These to me when I was younger where the Bach I felt safe with, his fugues and inventions even posed fingering problems that elongated the time required to play fluently, I avoided them a lot as a youngster and can sympathize with students who find the fingering so frustrating.
I can clearly remember a couple of years back teaching a new student who was grade 5 the invention no 13, her fingering was wrong (this invention has deceptively tricky fingering) I marked in all the correct fingerings and also gave her the Busoni fingering editions to look at and it totally depressed her so much she wanted to abandon the piece altogether!
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Even though I almost decided to drop it already, I just spend about two hours to rework the fingering on the short part I had already "learned". I got rid of the tension, feels comfortable for my hands now, but I doubt I will have the stamina to do the same for the whole piece...Whoever wrote the fingering on the Henle book certainly didn't do it for me!
I almost like the piece when I play it really slowly, let the notes sing, but that's not quite the way it should be I guess ;D
I think must have some kind of brain damage...since there's this other piece that I have played for about 6 months with almost no breaks and really worked in every possible way and I still haven't been able to get the first few measures solidly memorized...the rest is fine but the beginning of the piece I always blow, just play the wrong notes and wrong fingers if I concentrate at all on the sound instead of watching my hands like a hawk...and it's nothing difficult, just a simple run of right hand notes and a couple of long notes on the left. I would be sure I have dementia, but I do think I have always been like this... >:(
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It wasn't until I got good at sight reading that I really appreciated the beauty of Bach and especially how important it was to be able to sight read his part writing as a test for overall piano fingering understanding and coordination.
I think you must be right, something like this would be nice to sight read...but then again I am not able to do that either...due to whatever it is that makes me see things on the staffs that are not there...
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A little update...With the completely renewed fingering I actually find this quite enjoyable to practice and I feel the right kind of muscle fatique instead of discomfort. We'll see tomorrow, but if my teacher has any complaints about the fingering (not that she usually does) I will refuse to learn more ;D
Got the first part to a reasonable tempo so now I have to figure out the next part...sigh...this will take some weeks to complete...
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That is no surprise for me because you need a well-tempered ear to listen to most of it. Actually, to get you into Bach, I would not advise you to listen to his work too much initially, but instead find good jazz improvisations on some of his tunes. They can be really fun. For example this one by Bobby McFerrin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQqrf6CWgQc) (Based on the famous Largo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9t8DZc8ELE) from the concerto No.5 in F Minor, BWV 1056) or this Salute to Bach (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPPQLzwCosI) by the Oscar Peterson Trinity...
Paul
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somehow I didn't follow this thread for about five minutes, and it got ahead of me...
And somewhere up there, j_menz and outin were talking about certain fingerings for harpsichord.
There are indeed certain fingerings which are used on harpsichord and organ which are rarely used on piano, mostly I think because they can be hard to get the strike even (which isn't a concern, of course, on harpsichord and organ -- where it's entirely when, not how hard). One particular example -- scales are often played without the thumb at all, but with the hand cocked a bit to one side or the other as the case may be, and just "walking" (running? :)) up or down the keyboard using 2 3 4 2 3 4 etc. Looks weird, but works just fine... I can't think of any other off the wall (from the piano standpoint) fingerings I've used on organ, but I'm sure there are some...
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I can't think of any other off the wall (from the piano standpoint) fingerings I've used on organ, but I'm sure there are some...
Not odd, but the whole double (or more) manual thing on the organ and double (sometimes) on the harpsichord means that some passages which are diabolical on the piano, because of interlocking twisting fingers, are actually quite straightforward.
Oh, and no sustain pedal means you can't cheat holding notes. On an organ particularly, it really stands out if you stuff that up. Learnt that the hard way. :-[
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Oh, and no sustain pedal means you can't cheat holding notes. On an organ particularly, it really stands out if you stuff that up. Learnt that the hard way. :-[
I have never learnt to use the pedal to cheat. It's more like a sound effect for me and I seem to be a bit obsessive about too much of it. I also don't get the pedal markings in music at all, I need to clear it much more often because I don't like the sound getting messy. When the piano is not in perfect tune keeping the pedal down sounds really horrible.
And in general I don't get it how people can use the pedal at all in Baroque. I have tried but it always sounds wrong to me...
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And in general I don't get it how people can use the pedal at all in Baroque. I have tried but it always sounds wrong to me...
If you're sight reading through a fugue, trust me: the pedal is your friend - historical authenticity sacrificed on the altar of practicality.
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If you're sight reading through a fugue, trust me: the pedal is your friend - historical authenticity sacrificed on the altar of practicality.
It's not about authentity at all I just hate the way it sounds when I try to apply the pedal :(
And the day I am sight reading a fugue will be the day cows actually start flying...
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And the day I am sight reading a fugue will be the day cows actually start flying...
I see it now:
(https://lavocalworks.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/flying_cow.gif)
Actually, I noticed you said you could now hear two voices at once, that would indicate that with practice you should be able to do more. That is a basic requirement for sight-reading fugues. Your "stray note" problem may be an issue, but I suspect it will resolve itself in time. So I suspect your neighbours are going to need an industrial strength umbrella in no time.
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Actually, I noticed you said you could now hear two voices at once, that would indicate that with practice you should be able to do more. That is a basic requirement for sight-reading fugues. Your "stray note" problem may be an issue, but I suspect it will resolve itself in time.
What do you mean by "stray note" problem? I am not sure which one of my numerous problems you are referring to? :)
So I suspect your neighbours are going to need an industrial strength umbrella in no time.
I accidently found myself in a piano shop yesterday and my plans on getting the grand became more solid again. Poor neighbours...
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What do you mean by "stray note" problem? I am not sure which one of my numerous problems you are referring to? :)
Seeing notes on the page that aren't there, are in the wrong place or which have gone off for a coffee somewhere.
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Seeing notes on the page that aren't there, are in the wrong place or which have gone off for a coffee somewhere.
Oh that ;D
Yeah, the reading part really sucks. I thought "stray notes" would refer to playing wrong notes. Which is not so much a problem with me. I play the right note but with wrong finger, notice it one or two notes later, get confused and everything falls apart. When I am sight reading this is not a problem, because there aren't "right" fingers yet, so I just adjust. If I could get the reading part right, I think I would much prefer sight reading to playing from memory.
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What do you mean by "stray note" problem? I am not sure which one of my numerous problems you are referring to? :)
I accidently found myself in a piano shop yesterday and my plans on getting the grand became more solid again. Poor neighbours...
Do it! Screw the neighbors! You gotta live too! Hehe. Do u live in an apt or a house?
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Do it! Screw the neighbors! You gotta live too! Hehe. Do u live in an apt or a house?
I live in an apartment with neighbours upstairs and to one side, no-one lives downstairs. Yes, I am definitely going to do it sooner or later. Just too busy with work stuff to really get into the project.
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Awesome! Freakin do it!
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The first Bach piece I ever played was Invention #1... hated it. I played a couple other Inventions, more or less hated them too.
Then for my college audition I played French Suite #5 - Gigue .. loved it
So, I started looking at more of the Suites.. English Suites, Partitas, French Suites.. eventually I played a bunch of the WTC. Now, I don't want to play anything else but Bach.. I even like the Inventions that I hated when I was younger.
Weird.. but I learned to appreciate Bach's music and began to understand its purity as well as it's structual soundness. It's really the only type of music that I feel satisfied playing. I feel like the sound I produce is (close to) correct. I don't feel that way with Beethoven or Rachmaninoff or Mozart.
Only thing is, it takes me like 10x longer to learn a single piece by Bach! Which tests my patience, but pays off in the end.
Happy fugue-ing!
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Only thing is, it takes me like 10x longer to learn a single piece by Bach! Which tests my patience,
It definitely does!
but pays off in the end.
The jury is still out on this one :P
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I really hate to say this but...
practicing this piece has completely changed my right hand 4th and 5th fingers...the tension is gone and they work like never before ::)
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I really hate to say this but...
practicing this piece has completely changed my right hand 4th and 5th fingers...the tension is gone and they work like never before ::)
Hahaha. Why do you hate to say it?
I'm quite happy to point out:
I told you Bach was good for you.
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Hahaha. Why do you hate to say it?
Because you guys will get smug for being right about everything >:(
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Because you guys will get smug for being right about everything >:(
I'd just like to point out that I deliberately didn't post "i told you so" here. I wanted to, but I didnt.
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I'd just like to point out that I deliberately didn't post "i told you so" here. I wanted to, but I didnt.
But I could hear you thinking it all the way up here ;D
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But I could hear you thinking it all the way up here ;D
Move to australia. I would love a telepathic student.
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Move to australia. I would love a telepathic student.
Since she can hear you anyway, why is the move required. Just easier to send the bill and bank the cheque?
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Since she can hear you anyway, why is the move required. Just easier to send the bill and bank the cheque?
Unfortunately, since I'm not telepathic, - in order to think the right thing I'd need to see/hear her playing in person.
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Move to australia. I would love a telepathic student.
Are you sure?
Student playing the best she can...
Teacher: That was better but maybe you should...
Student: Why do you say that when you are actually thinking that I am completely unmusical and will never be able to play anything properly and if you didn't need the cash you would tell me to start knitting instead >:(
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Student: Why do you say that when you are actually thinking that I am completely unmusical and will never be able to play anything properly and if you didn't need the cash you would tell me to start knitting instead >:(
I doubt that that applies to you, but in any case I suspect that where some teachers would think that at times, provided you were actually trying, AJs thought process would run more along the lines of:
Yeah! A challenge! :D
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Outin, i just found a baby grand for 700 dollars. But....i dont have a place to put it. Im trying to move my bed but idk where to put it either!!! Why must life be so unbalanced? How is your piano search going? Btw, i want to hoard pianos...
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lol - j_menz is right.. I've never once thought that about anyone.
Frankly the desire to play the piano is usually a big suggestion that a student has got sufficient music in them.
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Outin, i just found a baby grand for 700 dollars. But....i dont have a place to put it. Im trying to move my bed but idk where to put it either!!! Why must life be so unbalanced? How is your piano search going? Btw, i want to hoard pianos...
Why do you need a bed? Just close the lid and put a madress on the piano :)
I am not really seaching since I know already what I want but I don't have the time or energy to organize the thing right now...
I too want to have at least 3 different kind of pianos ;D
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I would get rid of my bed to have another piano to sleep under...
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lol - j_menz is right.. I've never once thought that about anyone.
Of course that isn't the worst case scenario...
Student playing intensely...
Teacher thinking: mmm....that's a pretty short dress... ::)
Student: Excuse me!!
Disclaimer: Everyone involved are adults
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I'm a professional. Even in my secret thoughts.. and none of my adult female students wear short skirts to lessons.. is that the norm in finland?
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I'm a professional. Even in my secret thoughts..
I have no doubt, no offense meant. Just a hypothetical demonstration of the dangers of dealing with telepaths.
and none of my adult female students wear short skirts to lessons..
Maybe you just haven't found the next Yuja Wang yet?
is that the norm in finland?
It seems all norms have flown away during the last decase or so. Went to a female doctor recently. She was 60 something...had a short white coat and a skirt even shorter. When she sat down I had a hard time staying serious...
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I have no doubt, no offense meant. Just a hypothetical demonstration of the dangers of dealing with telepaths.
None taken. Though to be honest ive had a that problem in reverse a few times.. with highschool girls who had an obvious crush on me (no telepathy required).
Maybe you just haven't found the next Yuja Wang yet?
No definitely not. I do have a 5 year old that i have high hopes for though. I haven't pushed him much yet but he's VERY motivated and every week he comes back having learnt more than I left him to do at lesson... I was quite impressed last lesson when during our little improv session he started playing double 3rds in his RH too.
Still, the 'him' part and the fact that he's not Scottish means i'm not expecting any skirts.
It seems all norms have flown away during the last decase or so. Went to a female doctor recently. She was 60 something...had a short white coat and a skirt even shorter. When she sat down I had a hard time staying serious...
Oh wow. Well at least she was confident despite her age...
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... with highschool girls who had an obvious crush on me (no telepathy required).
Isn't it a pain to be so handsome... ;D
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Isn't it a pain to be so handsome... ;D
Its certainly a different kind of challenge trying to teach someone who's communicative ability has been reduced to giggling.
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Its certainly a different kind of challenge trying to teach someone who's communicative ability has been reduced to giggling.
You could have asked them to giggle one of the voices in the Bach fugues...that might have been useful :P
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You could have asked them to giggle one of the voices in the Bach fugues...that might have been useful :P
It may have been an effective way to make me giggle just as much.. which I doubt would improve the quality of the lesson at all.
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It may have been an effective way to make me giggle just as much.. which I doubt would improve the quality of the lesson at all.
Seriously....I am a bit curious about how did you resolve the situation? Did you just ignore it and let them grow out of it after a while? I find these one sided attractions very uncomfortable. Had it happen a couple of times in a work related situation and mine is not nearly as "personal" as teaching piano can be.
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Seriously....I am a bit curious about how did you resolve the situation? Did you just ignore it and let them grow out of it after a while? I find these one sided attractions very uncomfortable. Had it happen a couple of times in a work related situation and mine is not nearly as "personal" as teaching piano can be.
Well in regard the the situation I'm thinking of... I was young, and used to it. Doesn't that sound arrogant? Haha.. seriously though, these 2 girls were 15 at the time, they had lessons directly after one another and were best friends - I was barely 18.. they had been at the same highschool as me and knew/percieved me to be one of the "cool" senior school guys that was in a band.
I was probably exaggerating a little saying all they could do was giggle.. but they obviously had a thing.. I just ignored it and got on with the lesson, they always had the thing as long as I was their teacher but their confidence talking to me got better.
Not sure what it'd be like if they same thing happened now.. That'd be really awkward by comparison with me being older now.. and engaged. :-\
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There was a time when I was like 17, and my guitar teacher was either 22 or 23....hes fantastic. Taught me everything I know. He was already married and now has a awesone son (not to mention his wife is extremely beautiful) so nothin wierd there...his friend was suuuuuper fine. He was a drum teacher who had a girlfriend and got married to her...i remember taking lessons on drums...in flip flops, eyes redder than the devils butt cheeck. I didnt last long there and just ignored all hormonal rage because its really awkward when youre attracted to someone and its soooo wroooooong! Haha
And then teachers in college....*bites lip off* older men rock...your time is still to come, aj. When youre in your 30s ...yeah, thats awesome. Lol
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Back on the invention...Technically it has gotten pretty good, can play quite fast and sounds nice...for a while...
BUT as for getting through the piece (or any piece really)...I am seriously getting to wonder if it was a bad idea to try to learn the piano at all...I can play none of my pieces no matter how well rehearsed. I play HS, play small sections, start from different parts and everything else that is usually recommend. Yesterday I even memorized the notes away from the piano which I never do because it makes my brain hurt.
I can see where the problem is, but have no tools to get around it.
It's all in my mind...Kind of a mental block. I just don't trust my memory anymore after it failing constantly. So all the time when I play I worry about the coming memory lapse. The only way I can get through the piece is to play so fast that there's no time to get worried. Playing fast is risky though, I get finger slips and my vigilant fingers also tend to replace each other without permission no matter how many times I have practiced with the same fingering. And when something like this happens I get distracted again.
I just cannot keep my head together, it splits into two while playing. The other part is thinking/worrying about things not relevant to the piece which takes a lot of brain power away from the playing and makes it impossible to concentrate on the music. It feels like when I play my mind keeps filling with the notes and at one point it just has to reset and shuts down. The more notes the sooner it happens. So if the piece is slow I might get to the latter half, but if it's fast I might only get through a few bars. So I kind of play on the edge all the time, if I am lucky I might not mess up. And relying on luck just makes me worry more.
I would seriously need that Rach vodka...alcohol has always helped me concentrate is small portions, but unfortunately my drinking days are over...My stomach cannot handle even a tiny bit.
Oh well...as hopeless as I am today is my lesson so I just have to deal with it...
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No, you are just afraid if mistakes and dont know how to play through them. Practice recording yourself. You'll be more aware of where and what your mistakes are etc.
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No, you are just afraid if mistakes and dont know how to play through them. Practice recording yourself. You'll be more aware of where and what your mistakes are etc.
Oh, I am always aware of my mistakes the second I make them, sometimes even before...unfortunately. My brain works a bit too fast that way...You are right, I am unable to play through the mistakes, my teacher has tried to make me but so far hasn't had much success. I try but if I don't let my mind analyze what happened it goes completely blank. If I didn't notice I could just go on... I do recording quite often but don't see how it would help this issue.
But right now I think I just need a break, too much work and too little time to practice...weekly lessons have become really stressfull... I still enjoy sitting down practicing the difficult spots, solving technical problems and learning to make music out of the notes on the sheet. I just dislike playing pieces even when I practice...probably not how it usually is. The lessons are great when we work on specific issues but when I am supposed to play I feel unwilling and forced and I don't do well when I am forced to do something. Usually I wouldn't even do it but it's kind of hard to refuse to play your piece to the teacher since it's kind of the idea of the lessons. I think this is why I am so stressed also at home on weekends, trying to learn and memorize the piece faster than I really can to get through playing it on the next lesson which is always too soon...
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But right now I think I just need a break, too much work and too little time to practice...weekly lessons have become really stressfull... I still enjoy sitting down practicing the difficult spots, solving technical problems and learning to make music out of the notes on the sheet. I just dislike playing pieces even when I practice...probably not how it usually is.
This part seems a bit unusual, where you don't like to play the pieces. Do you really like the music you are doing ? If you don't really really like the piece I could see you feeling the way you are. Add the outside stress and no release, it's a lose lose situation. A single glass of cabernet or even sometimes tea, coffee kick back look up a few things of interest online, have a small snack and just a short time to unwind after work works for me. Also as crazy as it may sound, excercise helps a lot. In the summer I bike ride, in the winter I have my bike on an excerciser stand in my studio. Work up a good sweat, have a shower, then practice. Break this mind set at any rate. You might need look at a different kind of music for a while.
I have to go up a big hill to get to my work, over the top and half mile more on the left is the place. At the end of my day when I leave, I turn right obviously and go down that hill, before I get to the bottom of the hill ? There is no more work, my mind is now shifted on to what I will do next. I had a boss years ago who lived off Cape, so that means going over a rather large bridge. He used to say there is an invisible gate on that bridge, when he crosses the bridge the gate closes behind him and he was then removed from work totally.
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This part seems a bit unusual, where you don't like to play the pieces. Do you really like the music you are doing ? If you don't really really like the piece I could see you feeling the way you are. Add the outside stress and no release, it's a lose lose situation. A single glass of cabernet or even sometimes tea, coffee kick back look up a few things of interest online, have a small snack and just a short time to unwind after work works for me. Also as crazy as it may sound, excercise helps a lot. In the summer I bike ride, in the winter I have my bike on an excerciser stand in my studio. Work up a good sweat, have a shower, then practice. Break this mind set at any rate. You might need look at a different kind of music for a while.
I have to go up a big hill to get to my work, over the top and half mile more on the left is the place. At the end of my day when I leave, I turn right obviously and go down that hill, before I get to the bottom of the hill ? There is no more work, my mind is now shifted on to what I will do next. I had a boss years ago who lived off Cape, so that means going over a rather large bridge. He used to say there is an invisible gate on that bridge, when he crosses the bridge the gate closes behind him and he was then removed from work totally.
I do like the music (apart from the Bach of course), that is not the issue. I just don’t like playing a piece when I am not up to it really. When it comes to work, I do not bring work home, but I am mentally exhausted after working non-stop for 12 hours or so (hardly have time for lunch these days and it’s all brain work).
I certainly do not exercise enough, that’s for sure, but I never will, I hate it. I cycle or walk to work when possible.
I sent a message to my teacher today explaining that I need to slow down a bit, so maybe I won’t feel quite as pressured over my lessons. And I do have a week’s break from lessons now due to school holidays.
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I have spent about 5 weeks on this piece now. I have tried every kind of memorization technique with it and it has actually helped me to get to the source of my troubles. It's not that I cannot memorize. It is the remembering/retrieving information part that does not work. My head is like a Windows computer: The hard drive is functioning and the data is stored there, but the OS just keeps crashing. How do you fix the OS in your brain?
The crashing seems to be connected to the need to use my hands and think at the same time. My working memory seems to disappear when my hands are at action. If I just close my eyes and think about the music and playing, I can remember the notes and the keys to play, see everything in my head clearly, but when I actually start playing it all disappears. So I have to rely on muscle memory only and even if I may gradually be able to go into some thinking, sooner or later the OS crashes and I'm back to the muscle memory. And I seem to have a rather weak muscle memory as well. Or maybe it is the weakness of the muscle memory that strains the OS so much it crashes?
Playing slow pieces is more manageable because the crashes are usually so short that I'm often able to recover before the rhythm of the piece is completely ruined. But playing fast pieces is impossible unless I manage to avoid the crash. The best I can do is about a half page before it happens, unless there are breaks in the piece where I can kind of reset on my own. And this piece has none of those...
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So play much slower when you first sit down to play the piece. then play it faster, then sliw down again if you must. Play slower through parts where you make mistakes.
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So play much slower when you first sit down to play the piece. then play it faster, then sliw down again if you must. Play slower through parts where you make mistakes.
Thanks, I'll try that... I would usually do the other way round, play fast once to see how it goes and then start slow practice/HS/whatever.
It's not so much about making mistakes anymore, they usually are just random slips of fingers or badly articulated sloppy notes... I often do not even make any mistake, my mind just goes blank for a split second and I do not know what to do next. If I am lucky it happens in a spot where it's easy to recover, but it can happen anywhere. On a really bad day it may happen already in the first measure :)
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So I just had a little morning practice. Only practiced 1/4 of the piece today. Played slowly once, not too bad, knew what to play. Tried the second time still slowly...got blanked twice...3rd time got blanked again twice, but in different spots. After that I couldn't even get through the first 2 measures, simply had no idea what to play, could not retrieve any memory of the piece from my head....this is what usually happens.
Had some coffee and went back to the piano. Played fast once, fine...managed to play fast 3 times before I started having small memory breaks. Decided to stop while winning :)
I wonder if taking such small breaks in practice more often would be helpful. The problem is just that I am so damn lazy to get up from the piano...
EDIT: Or maybe not...went to the piano 3rd time, and now it was like the piece had completely vanished from my head. Couldn't play it at all...After really struggling for a few times I was able to barely get through once in moderate speed and decided to stop. Tried the nocturne and couldn't remember most of the first page on it either and I had no trouble with it yesterday. Decided it's one of those days, better go to work instead...
I wonder if Bach is actually causing brain damage... ???
EDIT2:
Had one more little practice session. This time started with the Nocturne and had no memory problems at all in the part that I had learned. OT: I also see much improvement on my RH octaves, which makes me very happy. I’m now able to play deeper to the keys as long as they are slow.
I was able to get 15 minutes of focused practice with both pieces before I really had to leave for work. So either it was the raising coffeine level in my system or my theory is right: I should never start my sessions with Bach since it is not good for my brain. I agree that it is good for the fingers, but obviously is dangerous for the brain if not taken on at the right time ::)
Also this might explain why my lessons sometimes are a complete disaster…I don’t get to “start again” until I get into the right mind setting...
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Had some coffee and went back to the piano.
You tried to play before your morning coffee? :o
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You tried to play before your morning coffee? :o
OK, I admit that wasn't very smart... :-[
I guess I need to make another scientific experiment...how many cups is required for an invention...
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Increase as you go...
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OK, I admit that wasn't very smart... :-[
I guess I need to make another scientific experiment...how many cups is required for an invention...
I generally dont look at the rach without 4 at least... So for an invention i guess 7 to 9 depending on how much sleep you got.
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Try turkish style...ull need 2 tbl spoons
(https://www.misterian.com/blog/images/2009/06/20090612_DSCN0763-Edit.jpg)
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My brother in laws wife is turkish.. first time we met her family it was quite late at night and we visited their home for some reason i cant remember.. they insisted we try the turkish coffee at past midnight... didnt really sleep that night.
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Neat! Yeah its fantastic!
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Time to make that coffee then :)
Too many cups tend to raise my heartbeat (which is already above normal) to a grazy level... I wonder what the Turkish thing would do...
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You just need 1 porcelain cup. Its a different feeling than regular coffee. If you make strong pot of coffee and have a regular cup, you can get dizzy! Just make sure to get one of those copper or brass pots called cezve....to make turkish coffee
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If you make strong pot of coffee and have a regular cup,
Haha, I just chew the beans.
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It seemed this morning that two large mugs of regular coffee are sufficient to be able to have some proper practice with the invention (in addition to working on another piece first), but I will need to repeat the experiment a few times before claiming the result scientifically valid... :)
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Haha, I just chew the beans.
Lol
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I am beginning to think I will conquer this piece eventually...not that I have made much progress forward but I feel quite confident in the parts that I have learned.
Obviously it's all about fingering...I have revised and experimented more than with any other piece before... still have certain parts where I am not sure I'm quite there yet.
I also think it helped to kind of mentally let it go for a while and concentrate more on the other pieces which seem so much easier. Not stressing about the invention seems to have helped with my memory issues a bit. Obviously this is better done without any time pressure. Hopefully I'll be finished before the summer break ;D