Bach again...

[chopin2015]

This damn invention...I have probably tried every reasonable fingering and I can't play fast or memorize properly...There's always some places that feel awkward and uncomfortable for my hands. The only way I can play some parts comfortably is with my long fingers close to the fallboard and with my upright that's hard to do without getting tension. It seems my hand shape, my instrument and the writing are incompatible 

You should give more examples of this. Are you holding some notes while trying to play? It is really hard to reach without enough motion of the hands...i have a haard time with repeating notes.

[outin]

interesting. Is your pianos action heavier?

What specifically is the problem with speeding up..  feels tense?

Have you tried using parallel set practice?

My piano is ok when I play in the front half of the white keys, but when going deep between the black keys gets difficult to play fast. And with my hand shape I seem to end up there all the time...
The problems are with the right hand, even the first measure. The 1-2 stretch from e-a I can only do if I extend my 2nd finger and then I already end up deep in the keys. If I use 3 instead I get trouble later in the measure.
In general my thumb slows me down and forces me to adjust my hand all the time.

When I speep up I either get tense or if I try not to I play the wrong notes. I have tríed HS, practicing blind (which usually helps for me) varying the touch and speed but see little progress. Don't really know much about the parallel set thing.

I feel frustrated because this piece is not musically challenging and I got the hands together pretty easily, but I can't get the mechanics right...

[chopin2015]

Try applying what you learnt to another invention! You need to figure out what stops you when closer to fall board. You could try curving your fingers less! Use a flatter position. Do you have a teacher? Which invention is it?

[j_menz]

In general my thumb slows me down and forces me to adjust my hand all the time.

These guys claim you don't need to use it at all.

https://www.schott-music.com/shop/Sheet_Music/Piano_Harpsichord_Harp/Piano_Harpsichord/1261763/show,42134,s.html

 

[outin]

Try applying what you learnt to another invention! You need to figure out what stops you when closer to fall board. You could try curving your fingers less! Use a flatter position. Do you have a teacher? Which invention is it?

Yes, I have a teacher. Nro 13. I already play with flatter fingers because I can't reach the legato parts otherwise.
This problem is not anything new really, but most of my pieces are slow so I can handle it.

[outin]

These guys claim you don't need to use it at all.

https://www.schott-music.com/shop/Sheet_Music/Piano_Harpsichord_Harp/Piano_Harpsichord/1261763/show,42134,s.html

 

 

My piece is not there unfortunately...and I wonder, would it work on a piano?

[chopin2015]

Ive played that one. Tell me what fingerings you are using, and where it doesnt work, or a snap shot of wtitten fingerings and i can help.

[j_menz]

would it work on a piano?

I've never played a real live harpsichord, so can't tell if the difference would be significant in this respect.

[p2u_]

When I speed up I either get tense or if I try not to I play the wrong notes.

This just means you are not ready to "speed up" (how I hate that word and that approach!). You need to do lots of HANDS SEPARATELY in short fragments. Sing each motive first, and then play, not faster than you can sing it, and certainly not faster than is convenient. Keep in mind that true legato in Bach's time was considered bad taste, so do yourself a favor and don't try to tie things that should not be tied.

I feel frustrated because this piece is not musically challenging and I got the hands together pretty easily, but I can't get the mechanics right...

You are mistaken. It is the musical challenges that cause your mechanics to break down. See above.

P.S.: Here is a nice analysis of the invention: Two versions of the A minor invention for you to appreciate how "musically unchallenging" this thing really is.

Paul

[j_menz]

You could try 13431343525 for the first bar (RH) - it avoids the 1-2 stretch and shouldn't get you into trouble.

[outin]

Ive played that one. Tell me what fingerings you are using, and where it doesnt work, or a snap shot of wtitten fingerings and i can help.

Don't have my book here and I can never remember my fingerings unless at the piano...but looking at the sheet on PS I realized there's one combination that I have not tried...need to try it out later...
I have decided not to go futher on the piece this week unless I have the beginning sorted out. And if we still can't in my next lesson I'll just drop the piece and wait until I get a harpsichord or a nice little grand with easier action. I already notice that practicing this piece is having negative effect on my other playing because of the tension and tiredness it causes.

[ajspiano]

My piano is ok when I play in the front half of the white keys, but when going deep between the black keys gets difficult to play fast. And with my hand shape I seem to end up there all the time...
The problems are with the right hand, even the first measure. The 1-2 stretch from e-a I can only do if I extend my 2nd finger and then I already end up deep in the keys. If I use 3 instead I get trouble later in the measure.
In general my thumb slows me down and forces me to adjust my hand all the time.

I won't offer anything without being able to see what you're doing..  you can send me a video if you like though and I may be able to offer something to help negotiate the stretch without getting stuck..  however, I would hope your teacher offers some help at a coming lesson anyway if it is infact a technical concern.

I feel frustrated because this piece is not musically challenging and I got the hands together pretty easily, but I can't get the mechanics right...

That's batshit insane. Given its a first invention... If this is not musically challenging you're not processing the counterpoint.. or you're a genius.

Don't really know much about the parallel set thing.

If you feel like reading...  they will almost undoubtedly solve your problem if you apply them correctly.

https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.II.10 - chord attack/gravity drops
https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.II.11 - parallel sets
https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.20 - parallel sets in bach inventions
https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.7.2 - advanced paralell sets for overall technical diagnosis

[outin]

You are mistaken. It is the musical challenges that cause your mechanics to break down. See above.

I am sorry, but I cannot agree with that. My teacher heard me play and felt it was good both stylistically and musically (when I could get it right once). I can sing the piece easily and know exactly how I want it to sound, that is not the problem here.

I agree that I am not ready to speed up, but the problem is that no amount of practicing even tiny fragments will get me ready until I get the hand movements to be more comfortable.

[ajspiano]

no amount of practicing even tiny fragments will get me ready until I get the hand movements to be more comfortable.

This is what parallel sets do.

....

on the musical front - if you can play one hand and sing the other without also playing it I'd be convinced.

[outin]

https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.20 - parallel sets in bach inventions

Obviously the writer uses a lot of concepts that I am not familiar with. But If I understood what he says about this specific invention, it's a about the same as what my teacher told me to do, think about the note groups as chords and prepare my hand?

Oops, deleted my previous post. I guess it doesn't matter. Just explained that I am not just being arrogant about the piece or my abilities. I have played two voice material and baroque style before, even though this is my first Bach invention. My teacher has said several times that I have the ability to play musically, just don't have the physical technique and lack the ability "to let go". But musical ideas just form in my mind easily, it's not that I have much undestanding about the theory behind the music.

[outin]

This is what parallel sets do.

....

on the musical front - if you can play one hand and sing the other without also playing it I'd be convinced.

I can do that. But not fast

Actually the bloody thing is going on in my head all the time now...I have lately realized that I can handle two voices in my head. But I doubt I will never be able to handle three so that's the limit of my musical  abilities when it comes to counterpoint. I can play some easy three voice stuff rather convincingly but it's more like faking than actually hearing the voices.

[p2u_]

I agree that I am not ready to speed up, but the problem is that no amount of practicing even tiny fragments will get me ready until I get the hand movements to be more comfortable.

Is the first note by itself (without playing the other notes) difficult to play? How about the second note without the other notes (even without the first)? As soon as you realize that principle, you can play two notes, then three, etc. keeping that same sense of comfort and without forcing the speed. Drop the idea of STRETCHING!

Paul

[outin]

Is the first note by itself (without playing the other notes) difficult to play? How about the second note without the other notes (even without the first)? As soon as you realize that principle, you can play two notes, then three, etc. keeping that same sense of comfort and without forcing the speed. Drop the idea of STRETCHING!

Actually the first note is difficult to play because I have to use my thumb 


No seriously, I know what you mean, but it is not so easy to not do any streching when you relaxed reach is hardly a 6th. Children seem to be able to do better, but they are flexible everywhere, while I struggle with moving my arms freely and also have to adjust my long fingers to the keyboard. If my hand was actually just small I think I would not have all these problems, since my left is no bigger and it works fine.

I also agree about not forcing the speed. Obviously I CAN play the thing faster because I did once at my lesson, I just cannot do it consistently and practicing with my own piano seems to not do what it's supposed to do.

[outin]

P.S.: Here is a nice analysis of the invention: Two versions of the A minor invention for you to appreciate how "musically unchallenging" this thing really is.

Is this a pissing contest?  

EDIT: Surely one can write a 100 page thesis about the most simple looking thing, because everything is complex if analyzed deeply enough. And every piece is challenging when you get to the point of making it meaningful and as close to perfect as you can.

Obviously I did not mean that there is no challenge. What I meant was that I did not find it difficult (and remember, we are talking about the first 6 bars) to grasp after sitting down with it for a couple of hours. I never forget a rhythm, melody, theme or "how the piece goes" after hearing/playing it through once or twice. They go to some other memory in my brain. What I cannot remember is what my hands are supposed to do, what position to take and which finger is supposed to play. I seem to not be able to connect my physical memory to that other memory. This does not apply to singing, those parts of my body I can syncronize easily with the musical ideas coming from my mind. I would need to get the same connection from my brain to the keys as I have from my brain to my throat (and torso obviously), but it just seems hopeless...like my hands do not belong to the same system at all...

Then again I have on rare occasions experienced the feeling of unity and easiness with the piano as well, that's what keeps me going even if it is so rare and I do not know how to achieve it by will.

[p2u_]

I also agree about not forcing the speed. Obviously I CAN play the thing faster because I did once at my lesson, I just cannot do it consistently and practicing with my own piano seems to not do what it's supposed to do.

OK. I  will no longer bother you with instructions. The only thing I want you to realize is that if you have never played any pieces like these, it is FAR FROM EASY and needs time getting used to. It would be a pitty to draw the wrong conclusions and drop the whole thing.

Paul

[p2u_]

Is this a pissing contest? 

Have I ever given the impression with my posts that I am one to engage in such silly contests or encourage others to do so?

I just gave this analysis for you to see that the structure of the piece is not as simple as the notes themselves would suggest.

Paul

[outin]

I just gave this analysis for you to see that the structure of the piece is not as simple as the notes themselves would suggest.

Which I can only agree, see above. Bad choice of words obviously from my part.

[outin]

OK. I  will no longer bother you with instructions. The only thing I want you to realize is that if you have never played any pieces like these, it is FAR FROM EASY and needs time getting used to. It would be a pitty to draw the wrong conclusions and drop the whole thing.

The problem in giving instructions is that they only work if they can be applied. Obviously I get a lot of instructions from my teacher but it is me who has to put them into practice. The limitations I have only I can truly be aware. Generalisations about problems with a certain piece sometimes are spot on, but they are not necessarily so. I am a grown person with a huge amount of knowlegde already that I can apply, not a teenager with delusions about learning to play without any work. I have spent the last 18 months in trying to work out these problems, it's not that they appeared in this piece, so I have a larger perspective into it.

[outin]

You could try 13431343525 for the first bar (RH) - it avoids the 1-2 stretch and shouldn't get you into trouble.

I'll better try that, I guess I was just too lazy to start again from the beginning with the fingerings

EDIT: Even after just a few tries it seems quite natural and easy this way. So I think I will just have analyze the fingerings again for the rest as well. Thanks

[chopin2015]

Don't have my book here and I can never remember my fingerings unless at the piano...but looking at the sheet on PS I realized there's one combination that I have not tried...need to try it out later...
I have decided not to go futher on the piece this week unless I have the beginning sorted out. And if we still can't in my next lesson I'll just drop the piece and wait until I get a harpsichord or a nice little grand with easier action. I already notice that practicing this piece is having negative effect on my other playing because of the tension and tiredness it causes.

Ok. Practice hands separately! Youll find what trips you up. Idk how people learn. Usually i go hands together if i can first. Then hands apart again is so important! Also, the accents help the musical ideas come out, aka left hand staccato, right hand legato simultaneously.

[kriatina]

I love the Bach family, especially Johann Sebastian and Friedemann,
and I am not too sure, because I am a beginne,r
but I always feel they both don't want to be played too fast.

I am also wondering whether the understanding of the correct speed
in how to play on the keyboard
was in Bach's time the same as is our speed in 2013?

I wish you good luck with your discovery and all the best from Kristina.

[outin]

on the musical front - if you can play one hand and sing the other without also playing it I'd be convinced.

I had never thought of practicing like this but it is actually much more fun than just playing HS, thanks for the tip. The only problem is that I cannot do the whole thing because there's no way I could hit the notes below C on the LH no matter how much I try...

[j_menz]

The only problem is that I cannot do the whole thing because there's no way I could hit the notes below C on the LH no matter how much I try...

Half a bottle of scotch and a few cigars every day for a week are good for an extra half octave or so.

[outin]

Half a bottle of scotch and a few cigars every day for a week are good for an extra half octave or so.

I doubt it, I already can go lower than 90% of my sex...maybe due to the fact that I really liked scotch when younger? Still do but my intestines don't 

[chopin2015]

Its true... i reached a 10th today! I have pictures! I did it comfortably without stretching. Im female, average european size....

[outin]

Its true... i reached a 10th today! I have pictures! I did it comfortably without stretching. Im female, average european size....

Great! How much scotch did you need to do that? 

[chopin2015]

Well...it takes a couple years for it to kick in....
Lame joke but hey, do you feel pain when stretching to reach notes in the pieces you are working on?

[outin]

Well...it takes a couple years for it to kick in....
Lame joke but hey, do you feel pain when stretching to reach notes in the pieces you are working on?

Maybe some discomfort but not really pain, only when my hand gets to a bad position. I think I have already reached my limit in strech because I can get my thumb and pinkie to a straight line. If I could get my RH thumb fully open without the tip turning outwards, I could do a so and so ninth (I can with my left) but now this happens after a 7th and no matter what I do it will hit the note above when playing an octave on white keys. I can do it on the black keys obviously because there's no key to hit there.

[chopin2015]

Its ok. It starts out difficult to do evetything right, hit right notes and avoid others and pedaling while listening to so many sounds, trying to make music out of it. Its like a baby trying to walk in high heels. Once you learn how to walk barefoot, and then in regular shoes.....em....youll get used to it and gain expetience, knowledge and skill to play (at least some) of the pieces you want! I promise! Dont give up on the invention. Have some discipline and use those problem solving skills.

[outin]

Its ok. It starts out difficult to do evetything right, hit right notes and avoid others and pedaling while listening to so many sounds, trying to make music out of it. Its like a baby trying to walk in high heels. Once you learn how to walk barefoot, and then in regular shoes.....em....youll get used to it and gain expetience, knowledge and skill to play (at least some) of the pieces you want! I promise! Dont give up on the invention. Have some discipline and use those problem solving skills.

I do enjoy solving problems...it's routines that I have more trouble with. Certain problems with my physique I just can't solve myself and that is really annoying, unsolvable problems is not something I encounter often. There's usually always a solution to be found...

I don't give up easily (and I won't on this one yet), but sometimes it is the best thing to do if practicing makes more harm than good. I have worked so hard to get rid of some tensions and I don't want to be back where I started.

If nothing else works I guess I could always decide that this piece actually sounds better played very slowly...BTW I just looked at the manuscript on PS and there is no tempo indication at all? Are there notes by Bach elsewhere or did someone else invent those?

[chopin2015]

I do enjoy solving problems...it's routines that I have more trouble with. Certain problems with my physique I just can't solve myself and that is really annoying, unsolvable problems is not something I encounter often. There's usually always a solution to be found...

I don't give up easily (and I won't on this one yet), but sometimes it is the best thing to do if practicing makes more harm than good. I have worked so hard to get rid of some tensions and I don't want to be back where I started.

If nothing else works I guess I could always decide that this piece actually sounds better played very slowly...BTW I just looked at the manuscript on PS and there is no tempo indication at all? Are there notes by Bach elsewhere or did someone else invent those?

Good! Think zen. Find your center. Not too much repetition but not too little. I have the schrimer edition for the inventions. Supposedly, the metronome was patented in the 19th century. It is argued whether he used tempo indications specifically, but your guess as good as mine. Pkay it how it sounds best and expresses the most...i pay most attention to word markings and notes.

[j_menz]

If nothing else works I guess I could always decide that this piece actually sounds better played very slowly...BTW I just looked at the manuscript on PS and there is no tempo indication at all? Are there notes by Bach elsewhere or did someone else invent those?

Bach almost never used tempo marks. With the dance movements of the suites I suppose there was a general understanding of what would be appropriate, and there are a few specific markings scattered around elsewhere, but mostly it is up to the performer.  Your teacher will, no doubt, also have an opinion as to how fast you should play it based on pedagogical factors as well as musical ones.

Given your RH thumb issue, you are going to have to be creative with your fingering, but there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to play this prestissimo if you want.

[j_menz]

The type of fingering I showed you, using the 1-3 rather than 1-2 and relying more on 3, 4 and 5 than other people might, will work, I think, for this Invention.

It won't work for everything, though, so there is another technique you need to consider. It is essentially the same as is used in more advanced pieces, such as Chopin 10/1, and if you didn't have the thumb issue you wouldn't really need it until then. With your thumb, though, it will be very useful much earlier.

Basically, you need to learn to move your whole hand when you move from 1 to 2, just enough so you don't have to stretch more than is comfortable/reliable. Not exactly a leap, but a bit like one.  Hard to explain, but if you have a look at AJs Chopin 10/1 Project thread you'll get some good information and demo vids of what's involved.

[outin]

The type of fingering I showed you, using the 1-3 rather than 1-2 and relying more on 3, 4 and 5 than other people might, will work, I think, for this Invention.

It won't work for everything, though, so there is another technique you need to consider. It is essentially the same as is used in more advanced pieces, such as Chopin 10/1, and if you didn't have the thumb issue you wouldn't really need it until then. With your thumb, though, it will be very useful much earlier.

Basically, you need to learn to move your whole hand when you move from 1 to 2, just enough so you don't have to stretch more than is comfortable/reliable. Not exactly a leap, but a bit like one.  Hard to explain, but if you have a look at AJs Chopin 10/1 Project thread you'll get some good information and demo vids of what's involved.

I think I know what you mean. But I would expect to have a brand new thumb before I am able to play any of the Chopin etudes 

But luckily I have a finger expert to consult again if I get into trouble 

[outin]

With some of the technical issues resolved I am finding myself in the so familiar situation...

My time on the piano has been very little this week. I do have the good excuse of working very late every evening, but I am sure I still could have found the time and strentgh to more practice if I really wanted to. But I have no desire because I am not working with something I really want to learn. I also don't have my usual weekend itch to get to the piano (on Saturdays I tend to wait untill noon before starting to torture my neighbours). This has happened a few times before, it seems like a pattern. Last time it was a classial piece. Now it's this Bach. I can make myself sit at the piano and when I do I do feel ok, but it's not what it normally is, I feel like I am just drilling something and I am not fully present. This probably is why it's so hard to memorize. It never happens when I have something under work that I really want to learn because of the music, not just because I feel I should. Deep down I know this kind of music is not why I want to learn the piano and it kills my interest. I can try to fool myself for a while trying to say to myself that the piece if alright, but really it's just not in any way interesting  to me. And I am not a kind of person who "goes with the flood", I have no discipline that way. Of course I have to do boring things at work, but I only need to invest a small amount of my time and then I can move on. Not possible with piano.

I am actually pining to work on another piece and while for an average person it might work to just tell myself that I work on this one first and then I get to do the other one, it won't work. I am restless and unable to concentrate on what I am doing. I am not a kind of person who could look at a cake and think I will eat it later  

Sometimes it's just wise to listen to oneself and even if dropping a piece means giving up, it's still better than not practicing at all...and I don't feel the time was completely wasted anyway, I am sure I learned a few things  

It actually makes sense to me now why I never learned to play as a child and was so happy to drop the piano. Those endless lessons with books full of pieces that I had no enjoyment from and which I never properly learned. I was sometimes secretly trying to learn pieces from my older sister's books (I remember an easy arrangement of a Chopin nocturne that I played by myself but never thought I could tell my teacher). But those days one was supposed to learn everything in order. Maybe my present motivation issues are some sort of uncounsciouss reaction to those childhood lessons?

[hfmadopter]

With some of the technical issues resolved I am finding myself in the so familiar situation...

I am actually pining to work on another piece and while for an average person it might work to just tell myself that I work on this one first and then I get to do the other one, it won't work. I am restless and unable to concentrate on what I am doing. I am not a kind of person who could look at a cake and think I will eat it later  

Sometimes it's just wise to listen to oneself and even if dropping a piece means giving up, it's still better than not practicing at all...and I don't feel the time was completely wasted anyway, I am sure I learned a few things  

It actually makes sense to me now why I never learned to play as a child and was so happy to drop the piano. Those endless lessons with books full of pieces that I had no enjoyment from and which I never properly learned. I was sometimes secretly trying to learn pieces from my older sister's books (I remember an easy arrangement of a Chopin nocturne that I played by myself but never thought I could tell my teacher). But those days one was supposed to learn everything in order. Maybe my present motivation issues are some sort of uncounsciouss reaction to those childhood lessons?

However this goes for you, let me say that this week I can fully see your points ! It's just been one of those weeks for me too. As to Bach, it's not like he's ever been easy or anything ! What ever route you take, ever onward.

[brogers70]

Hi Outin,

Is there any chance your teacher is missing something basic about your posture, sitting position, height of the bench, anything like that? Any one of those things being off could lead to a good bit of tension. The problems you are describing do sound like tension is an issue. That's the sort of thing that only someone watching you play for a while could recognize and solve. You might consider springing for a lesson or two with a different teacher just to see if a different perspective will help.

Bill

[lostinidlewonder]

My first Bach piece ever was Prelude in C (WTC Bk1 no1). I didn't have the sheet music for it and the internet wasn't like it was today so I learned it from a tape recording

I thought... wow Bach is so beautiful and easy! But then I came to his part writing and got very scared. My first exam ever (grade 2 AMEB) the Bach took me forever to learn, and this was such easy music compared to what I had learned already (I had played Beethoven Sonatas). What I found so difficult was the fingering and coordination part writing posed. It wasn't until I got good at sight reading that I really appreciated the beauty of Bach and especially how important it was to be able to sight read his part writing as a test for overall piano fingering understanding and coordination.

I really liked learning repetitive pattern bach (and teach a lot of it now).... If that is something you can say Something that repeat a pattern over and over again. BWV 999 is one that springs to mind as a popular simple pattern piece, there is of course so many more. These to me when I was younger where the Bach I felt safe with, his fugues and inventions even posed fingering problems that elongated the time required to play fluently, I avoided them a lot as a youngster and can sympathize with students who find the fingering so frustrating.

I can clearly remember a couple of years back teaching a new student who was grade 5 the invention no 13, her fingering was wrong (this invention has deceptively tricky fingering) I marked in all the correct fingerings and also gave her the Busoni fingering editions to look at and it totally depressed her so much she wanted to abandon the piece altogether!

[outin]

Even though I almost decided to drop it already, I just spend about two hours to rework the fingering on the short part I had already "learned". I got rid of the tension, feels comfortable for my hands now, but I doubt I will have the stamina to do the same for the whole piece...Whoever wrote the fingering on the Henle book certainly didn't do it for me!

I almost like the piece when I play it really slowly, let the notes sing, but that's not quite the way it should be I guess

I think must have some kind of brain damage...since there's this other piece that I have played for about 6 months with almost no breaks and really worked in every possible way and I still haven't been able to get the first few measures solidly memorized...the rest is fine but the beginning of the piece I always blow, just play the wrong notes and wrong fingers if I concentrate at all on the sound instead of watching my hands like a hawk...and it's nothing difficult, just a simple run of right hand notes and a couple of long notes on the left. I would be sure I have dementia, but I do think I have always been like this...

[outin]

It wasn't until I got good at sight reading that I really appreciated the beauty of Bach and especially how important it was to be able to sight read his part writing as a test for overall piano fingering understanding and coordination.

I think you must be right, something like this would be nice to sight read...but then again I am not able to do that either...due to whatever it is that makes me see things on the staffs that are not there...

[outin]

A little update...With the completely renewed fingering I actually find this quite enjoyable to practice and I feel the right kind of muscle fatique instead of discomfort. We'll see tomorrow, but if my teacher has any complaints about the fingering (not that she usually does) I will refuse to learn more 

Got the first part to a reasonable tempo so now I have to figure out the next part...sigh...this will take some weeks to complete...

[krajcher]

That is no surprise for me because you need a well-tempered ear to listen to most of it. Actually, to get you into Bach, I would not advise you to listen to his work too much initially, but instead find good jazz improvisations on some of his tunes. They can be really fun. For example this one by Bobby McFerrin (Based on the famous Largo from the concerto No.5 in F Minor, BWV 1056) or this Salute to Bach by the Oscar Peterson Trinity...

Paul

[iansinclair]

somehow I didn't follow this thread for about five minutes, and it got ahead of me...

And somewhere up there, j_menz and outin were talking about certain fingerings for harpsichord.

There are indeed certain fingerings which are used on harpsichord and organ which are rarely used on piano, mostly I think because they can be hard to get the strike even (which isn't a concern, of course, on harpsichord and organ -- where it's entirely when, not how hard).  One particular example -- scales are often played without the thumb at all, but with the hand cocked a bit to one side or the other as the case may be, and just "walking" (running? ) up or down the keyboard using 2 3 4 2 3 4 etc.  Looks weird, but works just fine... I can't think of any other off the wall (from the piano standpoint) fingerings I've used on organ, but I'm sure there are some...

[j_menz]

I can't think of any other off the wall (from the piano standpoint) fingerings I've used on organ, but I'm sure there are some...

Not odd, but the whole double (or more) manual thing on the organ and double (sometimes) on the harpsichord means that some passages which are diabolical on the piano, because of interlocking twisting fingers, are actually quite straightforward.

Oh, and no sustain pedal means you can't cheat holding notes. On an organ particularly, it really stands out if you stuff that up.  Learnt that the hard way. 

[outin]

Oh, and no sustain pedal means you can't cheat holding notes. On an organ particularly, it really stands out if you stuff that up.  Learnt that the hard way. 

I have never learnt to use the pedal to cheat. It's more like a sound effect for me and I seem to be a bit obsessive about too much of it. I also don't get the pedal markings in music at all, I need to clear it much more often because I don't like the sound getting messy. When the piano is not in perfect tune keeping the pedal down sounds really horrible.

And in general I don't get it how people can use the pedal at all in Baroque. I have tried but it always sounds wrong to me...