Piano Forum
Piano Board => Performance => Topic started by: charmsjr94 on January 11, 2014, 03:12:11 AM
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Hey y'all,
I know this forum is overwhelmed with technique exercise questions, but I wanted some opinions on the Philipp technique method, more specifically "Exercises for Independence of the Fingers." I started doing them last year every day, stopped for a bit, and started again a few months ago. I do the first 5 Hannon exercises (to get my fingers loose), then the Philipp, then scales. I feel like it has immensely helped to strengthen my fingers individually, especially my 4th and 5th fingers.
Does anyone else use/approve of these exercises? Anyone have other exercises to recommend? Just like weight lifting, I feel like if you practice the same things daily, eventually you will plateau and need to switch it up.
Thanks!
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Hey y'all,
I know this forum is overwhelmed with technique exercise questions, but I wanted some opinions on the Philipp technique method, more specifically "Exercises for Independence of the Fingers." I started doing them last year every day, stopped for a bit, and started again a few months ago. I do the first 5 Hannon exercises (to get my fingers loose), then the Philipp, then scales. I feel like it has immensely helped to strengthen my fingers individually, especially my 4th and 5th fingers.
Does anyone else use/approve of these exercises? Anyone have other exercises to recommend? Just like weight lifting, I feel like if you practice the same things daily, eventually you will plateau and need to switch it up.
Thanks!
Send me a PM I'll help you out
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It doesn't sound like you understand what good technique is. No amount of these exercises will help you because you're walking down the wrong path.
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Can you elaborate Mr. Damper?
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My understanding of "Technique" is the ability to play precisely how you wish to interpret a piece. With that comes the development of speed, independence of fingers, and fluidity, among other things.
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My understanding of "Technique" is the ability to play precisely how you wish to interpret a piece. With that comes the development of speed, independence of fingers, and fluidity, among other things.
And what about ease? You can still sound good with bad technique but you will struggle to practice until it's just right, which is often just a fleeting moment. If you practiced for ease, then you can extend those moments.
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Does anyone else use/approve of these exercises?
Thanks!
These exercises are some of the finest! There is a very specific way that they are to be studied/performed that you must be aware of!
I spent about a year on book I and a year on book II and it really did so much for my technique!
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+1 (and +1 from my late teacher!)
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Thanks awesom_o, I haven't come across anyone else that has used these exercises.
As for ease, the whole reason I practice technique is for total command of the keyboard, which requires ease, yes, and I don't see why technical exercises wouldn't help that.
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Thanks awesom_o, I haven't come across anyone else that has used these exercises.
As for ease, the whole reason I practice technique is for total command of the keyboard, which requires ease, yes, and I don't see why technical exercises wouldn't help that.
In my experience, many people don't believe in the idea of technique. Even some professors at conservatoire avoid the subject entirely, preferring to coach students on matters of interpretation.
Personally, I think that it's highly worthwhile to invest in one's technique from early on.
faulty_damper suggests that you can still sound good with bad technique...I have yet to hear a really good-sounding performance of anything that was delivered with bad technique!
The Philipp exercises developed my hands to a huge extent. It is very clever how they are based on 5-note diminished chords.
Those 5-note chord shapes remain symmetrical no matter what inversion they are played in!
Our hands are naturally very asymmetrical. The inside 3 digits are much more powerful than the outer two, and the thumb-half of the palm is thicker and more meaty than the pinky-half!
After spending two years working every day on Philipp, my hands changed dramatically. They are much more symmetrical now.
I now play the piano with one mighty unit of ten equally accomplished players, instead of two weak units of five unequally accomplished layabouts!
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So Awesom_O,
You say you've yet to hear a pianist sound good with bad technique. Have you heard Argerich play? Did you think she sounded good? And what of Cortot? Both of them have said some intriguing things about their technique, both implying that they had fundamental flaws. They both worked very, very hard to sound good even with their flawed technique.
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So Awesom_O,
You say you've yet to hear a pianist sound good with bad technique. Have you heard Argerich play? Did you think she sounded good?
I did hear her once. It was a duet/duo concert, in Usher Hall, Edinburgh. The music was incredible, and it really opened my eyes to the magic of piano duo and duet.
Argerich has incredible technique! I'm not sure where you ever heard anything to the contrary....
Never heard Cortot live. His recordings aren't my cup of tea but his touch could be marvelous at times!
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So Awesom_O,
You say you've yet to hear a pianist sound good with bad technique. Have you heard Argerich play? Did you think she sounded good? And what of Cortot? Both of them have said some intriguing things about their technique, both implying that they had fundamental flaws. They both worked very, very hard to sound good even with their flawed technique.
In the case of Cortot I always attributed that to Parkinsons. You can clearly see how much he trembles in the masterclass video where he is really old. Recordings from when he is "young" (granted the earliest recordings from 1919 he is already 42) are often played at astronomical tempos without loss of musicality or clarity (from what you can hear from 80 year old, muddy recordings) so it's hard for me to imagine his technique was bad if he could pull that off, especially with that marvellous tone he had.
I've always been fascinated by Cortot, what intriguing things about his technique did he say that implied there were flaws?
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I did hear her once. It was a duet/duo concert, in Usher Hall, Edinburgh. The music was incredible, and it really opened my eyes to the magic of piano duo and duet.
Argerich has incredible technique! I'm not sure where you ever heard anything to the contrary....
Never heard Cortot live. His recordings aren't my cup of tea but his touch could be marvelous at times!
So you're actually admitting you're wrong and/or making an error in reasoning since you assume that a person who sounds good must also have good technique. This is a faulty assumption. I remember a time when I sounded good (according to my teachers) but had very poor technique since I had to practice endless hours to achieve it. And even then, the moment I stopped practicing, it would fall apart.
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In the case of Cortot I always attributed that to Parkinsons. You can clearly see how much he trembles in the masterclass video where he is really old. Recordings from when he is "young" (granted the earliest recordings from 1919 he is already 42) are often played at astronomical tempos without loss of musicality or clarity (from what you can hear from 80 year old, muddy recordings) so it's hard for me to imagine his technique was bad if he could pull that off, especially with that marvellous tone he had.
I've always been fascinated by Cortot, what intriguing things about his technique did he say that implied there were flaws?
You need to be cautious of listening to those old recordings, partly due to the audio fidelity but mostly due to the playback of those recordings. It's highly improbable that he could have played those pieces so fast. What's more likely is that the playback equipment played them back at a faster tempo. This is actually quite common.
Here's an old thread that expounds upon famous pianists' technique. Bernhard mentions far more pianists who had flawed technique. It's actually a really good thread about technique from 8 years ago.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=19043.0
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Listen to this!!!! (I am in the process of getting virtuoso-like technique in the manner of only a few weeks).
Your fingers don't need you to thrust them thoughtlessly a thousand times through the excercises that other men developed. Your fingers need to be thoughfully used to play piano keys slowly for the sake of music.
If you really care, and if you really play as you think the instrument really ought to be played slowly from note to note, then you'll develope virtuoso-like technique. This is the key: You must give each note played VOLUNTARY, thoughtful attention and respect. You must always think ahead on the note that is to be played.
This takes patience. Try just 5 notes, one per finger. Play each note one after another VERY SLOWLY, with much thought and love. Give each finger due respect. If you can play one note endearingly by itself, then you can also play that same note from another note. And always remember, there is no right or wrong, just your desire to embrace, sink into, the keys. -For its own sake - Not for skill's sake.
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Listen to this!!!! (I am in the process of getting virtuoso-like technique in the manner of only a few weeks).
Darn, my snake oil allergy seems to have flared up. :(
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To j_menz,
Yes, I am sorry, I should have thought longer before writing that type of sentence.
But would you call a person who has a desire to help others out from what he clearly sees in his own practice a snake? I am developing virtuoso-like technique that looks similar to Kissin's, and anyone else who wants to can also.
If you not only limit yourself musically, but others also, what good does that do to you?
I am sorry for my ignorance. I'll think more and listen more in the future. My desire to share has turned into miscommunication.
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[Yeah, here I misunderstood use of "snake oil." Haha, it does have that ring to it. And also, you'll see me rant due to my big opinion and inexperience in the piano world and on forums. I was taking it all seriously, as if we're all trapped in a box that others have a key on. Let's just be glad that it was in here and not out there! But yeah, here's common sense - You've got to go about very carefully if you want to teach various piano teacher's students micro lessons. They can get really mad... But Asperger's drags you out the realm of common sense if you're not careful! Listen, listen, listen before speaking will have to be the motto]
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But would you call a person who has a desire to help others out from what he clearly sees in his own practice a snake?
You appear to have misunderstood. Suggest you google "snake oil salesman"
I am developing virtuoso-like technique that looks similar to Kissin's, and anyone else who wants to can also.
Looks like Kissin's? Pass. Whatever it's actual merits in terms of efficiency and sound production, and that has been the subject of some debate here in the past (which I do not hope to resurrect), it is certainly not the best looking technique out there.
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You need to be cautious of listening to those old recordings, partly due to the audio fidelity but mostly due to the playback of those recordings. It's highly improbable that he could have played those pieces so fast. What's more likely is that the playback equipment played them back at a faster tempo. This is actually quite common.
Wouldn't that change the pitch too much with the analog signal technology they had back then? MM 120, 8 notes to the beat was the norm for scales and passage work, so there's no doubt in my mind that the old masters were quite capable piano players without sounding mechanical. :)
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OK, what if I said that my technique is becoming virtuoso-like regardless of how it looks? (I'm sorry for the high number of comments; I'm out of here now). (Yundi Li has beautiful looking technique).
My point is that a person's technique is what he makes for himself, not what a bunch of books and scales and programs of study make it to be... If there is no thought by the person, then there will be no virtuoso technique.
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My point is that a person's technique is what he makes for himself, not what a bunch of books and scales and programs of study make it to be... If there is no thought by the person, then there will be no virtuoso technique.
Don't confuse necessity with sufficiency. All the thought in the world will not a virtuoso make without an ability to apply it in practice, and that takes practice, however thoughtful.
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Wouldn't that change the pitch too much with the analog signal technology they had back then? MM 120, 8 notes to the beat was the norm for scales and passage work, so there's no doubt in my mind that the old masters were quite capable piano players without sounding mechanical. :)
I think faulty is confusing audio with video - the latter often gets sped up on playback because of the different frame rates used on different equipment (which was, for a long time, hard to change).
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You need to be cautious of listening to those old recordings, partly due to the audio fidelity but mostly due to the playback of those recordings. It's highly improbable that he could have played those pieces so fast. What's more likely is that the playback equipment played them back at a faster tempo. This is actually quite common.
Here's an old thread that expounds upon famous pianists' technique. Bernhard mentions far more pianists who had flawed technique. It's actually a really good thread about technique from 8 years ago.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=19043.0
I wouldn't be so sure if I were you, it is pretty easy to tell if a recording is sped up to slowed down, because the timing between notes and sound decay would feel "off". Everything in those recordings sounds natural and well timed to my ears. Try this:
If the recording was sped up to get that 2:00-ish Presto so Presto the slow parts would sound like slow-mo. Also, I think the sound engineers who did the restoration would've corrected the playback speed during the transfer.
P.S. If you leaf through Rational Principles you will find that Bernhard hasn't read the book very carefully. There's no talk about muscles in the fingers or strength, but rather about suppleness and flexibility. But I agree that there are dangerous things in that book though.
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So you're actually admitting you're wrong and/or making an error in reasoning since you assume that a person who sounds good must also have good technique. This is a faulty assumption.
I'm doing nothing of the sort! I think YOU are making the error in suggesting that Martha Argerich, one of the greatest pianists of our time, has anything but exceptional technique! ;)
Coincidentally, the teacher who I studied the Philipp exercises with studied technique under Maria Curcio who was also Argerich's teacher.
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Don't confuse necessity with sufficiency. All the thought in the world will not a virtuoso make without an ability to apply it in practice, and that takes practice, however thoughtful.
Perfect. Thanks
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Whoah, ok.
First, Technique is obviously not the material found in a bunch of books. That is a rather illogical statement in my opinion. Your technique is developed by the exercises found in the books and it's really just an organized way to strengthen everything.
Faulty Damper, you're saying that you sounded good without strengthening through exercises. I guess my point is that if you'd spent a little portion of the day doing exercises and developing strength and stamina, maybe it wouldn't take countless hours to develop a piece and maybe it wouldn't fall apart right away.
The way I see it, the exercises are supposed to make your life easier. Some people say "Oh just develop your technique while practicing your pieces," which is fine, but doesn't it make your job easier to be able to nail a scale or a tricky passage without spending a lot of time on it? If you practice smoothness and fluidity in your exercises, doesn't that transfer over to your playing at all? I think technical work plays a hugely important part in developing your overall piano sound
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Faulty Damper, you're saying that you sounded good without strengthening through exercises. I guess my point is that if you'd spent a little portion of the day doing exercises and developing strength and stamina, maybe it wouldn't take countless hours to develop a piece and maybe it wouldn't fall apart right away.
Oh, you mean practicing Hanon for six hours a day? I did that and showed neither musical nor technical improvement. Ironically, it was only after I stopped doing Hanon and other exercises that I started to sound better, actually making music.
Anyway, you're wrong to think piano playing has much to do about strength and stamina. My forearm muscles are actually smaller now than when I was doing those hideous exercises. My technique does not depend on having strength but instead, finesse.
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If you're doing Hanon for six hours a day, I think you might be doing something wrong....
Anyways, this forum post was about whether or not others found the Philipp exercises effective (which people have, evidently) and if others had suggestions on other exercises that have proven beneficial.
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By the way, make sure you read and take note of the preface.
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If you're doing Hanon for six hours a day, I think you might be doing something wrong....
Anyways, this forum post was about whether or not others found the Philipp exercises effective (which people have, evidently) and if others had suggestions on other exercises that have proven beneficial.
You just said that exercises will strengthen fingers and now you say doing exercises too much is the problem? You need to get your argument straight, since you just change it when evidence contradicts your opinion. No doubt some people will claim doing exercises were good for them, but who's going to bite the hand that feeds?
Correlation is not necessarily causation. In this case, it most definitely isn't.
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Definitely doing Hanon for six hours a day is not a good idea.
However, 30-40 minutes a day of focused, conscious work on exercises like the Philipp series can work wonders in the short space of a year!
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However, 30-40 minutes a day of focused, conscious work on exercises like the Philipp series can work wonders in the short space of a year!
Bwahahaha! A YEAR! I'd rather just teach my students how to use their bodies. They are the instrument. Not the piano.
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Usually, that's singing.
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Or abuse.
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Usually, that's singing.
You're body is the instrument. One pianist said it this way: don't let the piano play you, YOU play the piano. And he was/is right.
Now think about this thread. Who's playing whom?
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You're body is the instrument. One pianist said it this way: don't let the piano play you, YOU play the piano. And he was/is right.
Now think about this thread. Who's playing whom?
Another pianist said "I am a general. My soldiers are the keys and I have to command them."
Sometimes pianists say some dumb things.
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Another pianist said "I am a general. My soldiers are the keys and I have to command them."
Sometimes pianists say some dumb things.
Just look at this thread. Completely agreed. ;D
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Bwahahaha! A YEAR! I'd rather just teach my students how to use their bodies. They are the instrument. Not the piano.
But exercises used the right way can help teaching and reinforcing how to use your body. There are other ways to do exercises than mindlessly drilling them for six hours a day.
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Faulty Damper, You're clearly not in favor of technical exercises. That's fine. But you can't even be open to the idea that they could be beneficial? A lot of people very clearly state that they can be immensely helpful but you seem vehemently against them. Most schools, even the top conservatories have scales and arpeggios as part of the audition process. All the teachers I've ever come across have students do technical work AT LEAST up until a certain point. Now, I'm hardly a mathematical or technical person when it comes to developing a certain skill, but I know that using exercises has developed a core set of skills that transfer over to my playing.
Teaching to play "with your body" just seems vague and wouldn't provide consistent relief from a technical stand point. I'm not trying to downplay your methods, but I would stick with technical exercises AMONG OTHER THINGS. Not Hanon 6 hours a day, but warm ups and technique for maybe 45 min to an hour and then 3- 5 hours of repertoire and general playing (which is basically my general schedule.) I've found that to be incredibally beneficial
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It's like athletes - they don't just do their specialism, they also do a daily complete body maintenance.
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Faulty Damper, You're clearly not in favor of technical exercises. That's fine. But you can't even be open to the idea that they could be beneficial? A lot of people very clearly state that they can be immensely helpful but you seem vehemently against them. Most schools, even the top conservatories have scales and arpeggios as part of the audition process. All the teachers I've ever come across have students do technical work AT LEAST up until a certain point. Now, I'm hardly a mathematical or technical person when it comes to developing a certain skill, but I know that using exercises has developed a core set of skills that transfer over to my playing
Do you know why so many "advanced" pianists still struggle with relatively basic technical issues that require them to practice an endless amount of hours? It's because they are using a less than perfect technique that requires them to practice an endless amount of hours to maintain.
A perfect technique requires no extra practice once learned. This is how you know whether or not the technique is perfect. If you must still practice it, then it is less than perfect.
These finger exercises cannot teach you this perfect technique because it is based on faulty assumptions about how the body works. Finger independence and finger strength is a myth and any student who thinks they can achieve this to improve their technique is ignorantly blissful. These same people believe that doing them has worked yet they continue to do them or other exercises. This is not the perfect technique.
Teaching to play "with your body" just seems vague and wouldn't provide consistent relief from a technical stand point. I'm not trying to downplay your methods, but I would stick with technical exercises AMONG OTHER THINGS. Not Hanon 6 hours a day, but warm ups and technique for maybe 45 min to an hour and then 3- 5 hours of repertoire and general playing (which is basically my general schedule.) I've found that to be incredibally beneficial
Of course it's vague. But I guarantee that once you've experienced it, you'll understand exactly what I mean. It will feel so easy. You will never again need to do any kind of exercises nor practice any kinds of scales or arpeggios. The only kinds of practice you will do will be for the acquisition and performance of repertoire.
But, most people would rather quantify their practice in terms of hours instead of accomplishments. This is just lazy and/or misguided.
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If you have perfect technique, you must sound really good!
Any chance you might be willing to share a small sample of your perfection over in the audition room? :)
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I agree with awesom-o
I'd also like to hear a little more about your full body technique.
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Listen to this!!!! (I am in the process of getting virtuoso-like technique in the manner of only a few weeks).
Your fingers don't need you to thrust them thoughtlessly a thousand times through the excercises that other men developed. Your fingers need to be thoughfully used to play piano keys slowly for the sake of music.
If you really care, and if you really play as you think the instrument really ought to be played slowly from note to note, then you'll develope virtuoso-like technique. This is the key: You must give each note played VOLUNTARY, thoughtful attention and respect. You must always think ahead on the note that is to be played.
This takes patience. Try just 5 notes, one per finger. Play each note one after another VERY SLOWLY, with much thought and love. Give each finger due respect. If you can play one note endearingly by itself, then you can also play that same note from another note. And always remember, there is no right or wrong, just your desire to embrace, sink into, the keys. -For its own sake - Not for skill's sake.
I was with you until I heard you look like Kissins technique. You're description of playing and his technique appear opposing.
Nick
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Do you know why so many "advanced" pianists still struggle with relatively basic technical issues that require them to practice an endless amount of hours? It's because they are using a less than perfect technique that requires them to practice an endless amount of hours to maintain.
A perfect technique requires no extra practice once learned. This is how you know whether or not the technique is perfect. If you must still practice it, then it is less than perfect.
These finger exercises cannot teach you this perfect technique because it is based on faulty assumptions about how the body works. Finger independence and finger strength is a myth and any student who thinks they can achieve this to improve their technique is ignorantly blissful. These same people believe that doing them has worked yet they continue to do them or other exercises. This is not the perfect technique.
Of course it's vague. But I guarantee that once you've experienced it, you'll understand exactly what I mean. It will feel so easy. You will never again need to do any kind of exercises nor practice any kinds of scales or arpeggios. The only kinds of practice you will do will be for the acquisition and performance of repertoire.
But, most people would rather quantify their practice in terms of hours instead of accomplishments. This is just lazy and/or misguided.
I agree with you even though I am not exactly where I want to be as my approach is relatively new. But this whole body technique I don't get. Care to elaborate or links?
Nick
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I agree with you even though I am not exactly where I want to be as my approach is relatively new. But this whole body technique I don't get. Care to elaborate or links?
Nick
I didn't use the term "whole body technique" and don't know what that actually means. The technique I describe can be quantified this way:
Very easy > easy > difficult > very difficult
The best technique is one that allows you to play the easiest, without any extra strain, and doesn't require practice to maintain once learned. Contrary, most people think like this:
play it > play it effortlessly.
They're only interested in playing the notes and then practice musical expression. The technique doesn't matter. This is why so many pianists, including rather famous ones, had to slave away at the keyboard.
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You completely avoided the question....
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You completely avoided the question....
Read carefully:
I didn't use the term "whole body technique" and don't know what that actually means.
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Fair enough. I got the words wrong. I just wanted you to explain in a more specific way what you meant. Instead, you keep beating around the bush and I don't think I can take you seriously anymore
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Fair enough. I got the words wrong. I just wanted you to explain in a more specific way what you meant. Instead, you keep beating around the bush and I don't think I can take you seriously anymore
I think that's a problem, you think of technique like a magazine subscription that can be bought at a grocery store to peruse, e.g. Taubman, Sandor, Fink, et al. Perfect technique is not a methodology. It is a goal and that goal is effortless ease.
In concrete terms, if you can play something using two different movements but one is easier, which movement would you choose? While the answer is pretty obvious, the ramifications are far-reaching. If you accept that it's best to always choose the easiest path, then you must also forego the belief that doing exercises is a means toward the goal of perfect technique because it runs counter to that idea.
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In concrete terms, if you can play something using two different movements but one is easier, which movement would you choose? While the answer is pretty obvious, the ramifications are far-reaching. If you accept that it's best to always choose the easiest path, then you must also forego the belief that doing exercises is a means toward the goal of perfect technique because it runs counter to that idea.
Not to spoil all the fun, but most of the really good things in life don't come easily. In other words: the path of least resistance is often not the right choice in the long run. :)
@ the OP:
Philipp's exercises are very good, but I would only do them under the supervision of a competent teacher.
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I didn't use the term "whole body technique" and don't know what that actually means.
2 prior posts, one from someone stating, "Teaching to play with your body" and another by you, "I'd rather just teach my students how to use their bodies" is where I got that from. For most fast scale like passages I'm thinking playing with the most ease would be from the hands/fingers.
As I said I agree with your premise. I spent many years with hours and hours of striking the keys from above, both with weight and without, and this type of technique REQUIRES that much time to maintain. The playing was pretty good but not worth the effort. And never will be the best.
Nick
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Not to spoil all the fun, but most of the really good things in life don't come easily. In other words: the path of least resistance is often not the right choice in the long run. :)
Just because that statement is true, like it is easier for a child to stay with their parents forever, it is not the best choice in long run, doesn't mean seek out the most difficult path as it is better. Take each individual case and examine. (some higher priced items are better than cheaper, some not)
Nick
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Perfect technique is not a methodology. It is a goal and that goal is effortless ease.
I disagree. A goal or result can be taught. If one knows how to play effortlessly, that can be taught. We could call that teaching a methodology. No? I say it is no big secret. I think many people love to feel that they can do something others can't, that this bolsters their good feelings about themselves. If others knew how to do it, they wouldn't feel as good. Like a "secret recipe".
Nick
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Just because that statement is true, like it is easier for a child to stay with their parents forever, it is not the best choice in long run, doesn't mean seek out the most difficult path as it is better. Take each individual case and examine. (some higher priced items are better than cheaper, some not)
My remark didn't have to do with choices in life, but with learning advanced skills. What initially seems to be the easiest movement may very well keep one from ever becoming a master, because we are all victims of habits, mostly bad habits. Slouching, for example, feels much easier than keeping the back upright, but is it therefore the right thing to do?
Isidor Philipp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isidor_Philipp) was a distinguished concert pianist/teacher, not an armchair theorist or amateur digital keyboard player, and he knew very well what he aimed at with his exercises. I already indicated, though, that one needs guidance to do them well. The training is actually not for the fingers that move, but for the ones that have to hold notes down without tension. They are tone exercises, not muscle drills (see the preface to the exercises). The result of doing the exercises correctly will be a feeling of acquired "strength" (actually control) and independence of the fingers.
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My remark didn't have to do with choices in life, but with learning advanced skills. What initially seems to be the easiest movement may very well keep one from ever becoming a master, because we are all victims of habits, mostly bad habits. Slouching, for example, feels much easier than keeping the back upright, but is it therefore the right thing to do?
Isidor Philipp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isidor_Philipp) was a distinguished concert pianist/teacher, not an armchair theorist or amateur digital keyboard player, and he knew very well what he aimed at with his exercises. I already indicated, though, that one needs guidance to do them well. The training is actually not for the fingers that move, but for the ones that have to hold notes down without tension. They are tone exercises, not muscle drills (see the preface to the exercises). The result of doing the exercises correctly will be a feeling of acquired "strength" (actually control) and independence of the fingers.
If one thinks of ease of motion as the primary focus, the result may be the same as the above exercises. Different ways to get to Rome, some more direct, easier if you will.
Nick
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For most fast scale like passages I'm thinking playing with the most ease would be from the hands/fingers.
This is correct! :)
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If one thinks of ease of motion as the primary focus, the result may be the same as the above exercises. Different ways to get to Rome, some more direct, easier if you will.
"Easy" is a subjective parameter and can therefore not serve as a given to think up a theory that holds for everybody. I find moving my fingers from the hand bridge down into the key a piece of cake and I can't understand what's so difficult about it. Neither is there anything particularly difficult in the Philipp exercises if one knows what to do with them. If one doesn't know that, then one should avoid doing them at all cost because in that case, they will certainly cause harm.
P.S.: At the same time, judging about their value or lack thereof is off-limits for those who got stuck while doing them because they didn't really know what to do with them.
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"Easy" is a subjective parameter and can therefore not serve as a given to think up a theory that holds for everybody. I find moving my fingers from the hand bridge down into the key a piece of cake and I can't understand what's so difficult about it. Neither is there anything particularly difficult in the Philipp exercises if one knows what to do with them. If one doesn't know that, then one should avoid doing them at all cost because in that case, they will certainly cause harm.
P.S.: At the same time, judging about their value or lack thereof is off-limits for those who got stuck while doing them because they didn't really know what to do with them.
Semantics gets in the way. Most efficient, least effort most would agree. Finger on the key to depress the key is more economical than raising the finger and striking it. Using weight to depress the key is less economical then using the smaller muscles to depress the key etc. One must assume one is thinking.
Nick
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Semantics gets in the way. Most efficient, least effort most would agree. Finger on the key to depress the key is more economical than raising the finger and striking it. Using weight to depress the key is less economical then using the smaller muscles to depress the key etc. One must assume one is thinking.
Sorry for being such a nerd, but "most efficient" and "least effort" may still not be the best option for musical purposes. A movement that works rather well in slow to medium tempi may fail in faster tempi. A good teacher will know from experience what works best for faster tempi and will have you practise that, even if it is not convenient or easy at all at first. Someone who is on his/her own and always picks the "easiest" options may get nowhere with a virtuoso work.
Also, when one has chord and octave leaps, for example, there are two approaches:
1) press, prepare the next one quickly and press
2) drop, "write" an elipse with the underarm, and drop.
In many works of the great Romantic literature, the second option will often give the best sound results although it is psychologically the most difficult because of the risk involved.
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Sorry for being such a nerd, but "most efficient" and "least effort" may still not be the best option for musical purposes. A movement that works rather well in slow to medium tempi may fail in faster tempi. A good teacher will know from experience what works best for faster tempi and will have you practise that, even if it is not convenient or easy at all at first. Someone who is on his/her own and always picks the "easiest" options may get nowhere with a virtuoso work.
Also, when one has chord and octave leaps, for example, there are two approaches:
1) press, prepare the next one quickly and press
2) drop, "write" an elipse with the underarm, and drop.
In many works of the great Romantic literature, the second option will often give the best sound results although it is psychologically the most difficult because of the risk involved.
Example please of movement for fast scale/arpeggio like passages where economy of motion, least effort is not best? I can be nerd like also. :D
Nick
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Example please of movement for fast scale/arpeggio like passages where economy of motion, least effort is not best? I can be nerd like also. :D
Pushing every note from the key surface with the arm to the bottom on passive ("relaxed") fingers; this is "easy" for most. This is economical and works very well slowly and in moderate tempi, but will definitely make presto impossible. To prepare for brilliance in faster finger passages, one should do "finger tapping" (see that thread in the teacher's section) and "position/note grouping".
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Pushing every note from the key surface with the arm to the bottom on passive ("relaxed") fingers; this is "easy" for most. This is economical and works very well slowly and in moderate tempi, but will definitely make presto impossible. To prepare for brilliance in faster finger passages, one should do "finger tapping" (see that thread in the teacher's section) and "position/note grouping".
What is " with the arm to the bottom"?
Nick
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What is " with the arm to the bottom"?
OK. I'll rephrase: pushing passive ("relaxed") fingers down with the arm from the surface of the key to the keybed. This is easy for most. It is economical and works very well for slow and moderate tempi, but it is the wrong thing to do in preparation for brilliant presto finger passages.
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OK. I'll rephrase: pushing passive ("relaxed") fingers down with the arm from the surface of the key to the keybed. This is easy for most. It is economical and works very well for slow and moderate tempi, but it is the wrong thing to do to prepare for presto passages.
Ah, when you do this it is NOT the most economical way, as many larger muscles are involved. This is where thinking comes in. I used to play with weight as the means of tone production, and although it appears the easy way it is not since many muscles are contracting to bear the weight of the arm. So an example please where it actually is more economical.
Nick
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Ah, when you do this it is NOT the most economical way, as many larger muscles are involved. This is where thinking comes in. I used to play with weight as the means of tone production, and although it appears the easy way it is not since many muscles are contracting to bear the weight of the arm. So an example please where it actually is more economical.
In slower tempi, it won't matter much how one moves the keys. You won't become supertired from playing Chopin's C minor prelude with a whole-arm drop throughout the piece. Economy becomes an issue only in preparation for more virtuoso repertoire.
The issue we are discussing is not what we (you and I) think is "easy", "convenient", "economical", but what the average Joe makes of it. Your solution is "thinking", but when those "thinking" people fail to solve their problems and surf the web to read the online help links and explanations all over the Web, then "arm weight" and "relaxation" are very much propagated (mind you: by other "thinking" people!) as *the* way to solve all technical problems.
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In slower tempi, it won't matter much how one moves the keys. You won't become supertired from playing Chopin's C minor prelude with a whole-arm drop throughout the piece. Economy becomes an issue only in preparation for more virtuoso repertoire.
One will feel a certain amount of "work" even going slowly. If one uses the smaller muscles instead, it is a much different feeling, much much less work.
The issue we are discussing is not what we (you and I) think is "easy", "convenient", "economical", but what the average Joe makes of it. Your solution is "thinking", but when those "thinking" people fail to solve their problems and surf the web to read the online help links and explanations all over the Web, then "arm weight" and "relaxation" are very much propagated (mind you: by other "thinking" people!) as *the* way to solve all technical problems.
I think it is what you and I think is the correct way, and you and I disagreed on economy of motion as being king. Yes, thinking people do make mistakes, I sure have, but please don't throw the baby out with the b... One finds where they went wrong and continues.
Nick
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I think it is what you and I think is the correct way, and you and I disagreed on economy of motion as being king. Yes, thinking people do make mistakes, I sure have, but please don't throw the baby out with the b... One finds where they went wrong and continues.
I will tell you a secret about "economy": I lift my fingers high and drop them into the key (I never hit or strike the keys) whenever I practise slowly. I deliberately enlarge the finger movement from the hand knuckle to create potential for more speed, and would you believe it? It works for me. Do not ask me to explain why, because I can't. :)
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I will tell you a secret about "economy": I lift my fingers high and drop them into the key (I never hit or strike the keys) whenever I practise slowly. I deliberately enlarge the finger movement from the hand knuckle to create potential for more speed, and would you believe it? It works for me. Do not ask me to explain why, because I can't. :)
That is a secret cause I don't see how fingers lifted high but don't strike the key. hmmm. Does the finger stop just short of the key and you press it? hmmm. I don't get it. Obviously it works for many pianists as many have high fingers and play well. So this creates the "potential" for more speed with fingers closer I assume. hmm. Don't get it. Again, practice method different than performance method. My fingers look exactly the same going slow as fast. If they don't, something is wrong.
Nick
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That is a secret cause I don't see how fingers lifted high but don't strike the key. hmmm. Does the finger stop just short of the key and you press it?
As I said, I can't explain it really; it's a kind of light swing into the key and the moderate speed/acceleration of the movement itself + the weight of the finger are enough to overcome the resistance of the key. You then simply take the key down with you in the "drop", so there is no conflict of collision as would happen in really striking the key with force.
About the lifting thing and creating potential for movement: I guess it works similar to "high knee drill training" for runners. Of course, at speed, the movements themselves become smaller, but that is not of your concern so to speak. It just happens.
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As I said, I can't explain it really; it's a kind of light swing into the key and the moderate speed/acceleration of the movement itself + the weight of the finger are enough to overcome the resistance of the key. You then simply take the key down with you in the "drop", so there is no conflict of collision as would happen in really striking the key with force.
About the lifting thing and creating potential for movement: I guess it works similar to "high knee drill training" for runners. Of course, at speed, the movements themselves become smaller, but that is not of your concern so to speak. It just happens.
Have any video of your playing? audition room?
nick
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The issue we are discussing is not what we (you and I) think is "easy", "convenient", "economical", but what the average Joe makes of it. Your solution is "thinking", but when those "thinking" people fail to solve their problems and surf the web to read the online help links and explanations all over the Web, then "arm weight" and "relaxation" are very much propagated (mind you: by other "thinking" people!) as *the* way to solve all technical problems.
And the ironical thing is that there is a big risk the average Joe who is adviced to use finger action instead is likely to just move his fingers and holding everything else rigidly in place (as opposed to having a completely free and flexible arm). Coordination is such a difficult thing to get across in writing.
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Have any video of your playing? audition room?
I have been asked this question before: the answer is "no". I do have recordings from lessons and live performances, but nothing I want to share with the world right now. Let's just say I have nothing to say yet. I expect to start sharing stuff in a year or two, most likely through YouTube. :)
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And the ironical thing is that there is a big risk the average Joe who is adviced to use finger action instead is likely to just move his fingers and holding everything else rigidly in place (as opposed to having a completely free and flexible arm). Coordination is such a difficult thing to get across in writing.
The only way to go for those who are not geniuses themselves is to find a good teacher. Even very well-made videos can't replace student-teacher interaction. :)