I. Philipp - Another technique post!

[faulty_damper]

Fair enough. I got the words wrong. I just wanted you to explain in a more specific way what you meant. Instead, you keep beating around the bush and I don't think I can take you seriously anymore

I think that's a problem, you think of technique like a magazine subscription that can be bought at a grocery store to peruse, e.g. Taubman, Sandor, Fink, et al.  Perfect technique is not a methodology.  It is a goal and that goal is effortless ease.

In concrete terms, if you can play something using two different movements but one is easier, which movement would you choose?  While the answer is pretty obvious, the ramifications are far-reaching.  If you accept that it's best to always choose the easiest path, then you must also forego the belief that doing exercises is a means toward the goal of perfect technique because it runs counter to that idea.

[dima_76557]

In concrete terms, if you can play something using two different movements but one is easier, which movement would you choose?  While the answer is pretty obvious, the ramifications are far-reaching.  If you accept that it's best to always choose the easiest path, then you must also forego the belief that doing exercises is a means toward the goal of perfect technique because it runs counter to that idea.

Not to spoil all the fun, but most of the really good things in life don't come easily. In other words: the path of least resistance is often not the right choice in the long run.

@ the OP:

Philipp's exercises are very good, but I would only do them under the supervision of a competent teacher.

[nick]

I didn't use the term "whole body technique" and don't know what that actually means.

  

2 prior posts, one from someone stating, "Teaching to play with your body" and another by you, "I'd rather just teach my students how to use their bodies" is where I got that from. For most fast scale like passages I'm thinking playing with the most ease would be from the hands/fingers.

As I said I agree with your premise. I spent many years with hours and hours of striking the keys from above, both with weight and without, and this type of technique REQUIRES that much time to maintain. The playing was pretty good but not worth the effort. And never will be the best.

Nick

[nick]

Not to spoil all the fun, but most of the really good things in life don't come easily. In other words: the path of least resistance is often not the right choice in the long run.

Just because that statement is true, like it is easier for a child to stay with their parents forever, it is not the best choice in long run, doesn't mean seek out the most difficult path as it is better. Take each individual case and examine. (some higher priced items are better than cheaper, some not)

Nick

[nick]

  Perfect technique is not a methodology.  It is a goal and that goal is effortless ease.

I disagree. A goal or result can be taught. If one knows how to play effortlessly, that can be taught. We could call that teaching a methodology. No? I say it is no big secret. I think many people love to feel that they can do something others can't, that this bolsters their good feelings about themselves. If others knew how to do it, they wouldn't feel as good. Like a "secret recipe".

Nick

[dima_76557]

Just because that statement is true, like it is easier for a child to stay with their parents forever, it is not the best choice in long run, doesn't mean seek out the most difficult path as it is better. Take each individual case and examine. (some higher priced items are better than cheaper, some not)

My remark didn't have to do with choices in life, but with learning advanced skills. What initially seems to be the easiest movement may very well keep one from ever becoming a master, because we are all victims of habits, mostly bad habits. Slouching, for example, feels much easier than keeping the back upright, but is it therefore the right thing to do?

Isidor Philipp was a distinguished concert pianist/teacher, not an armchair theorist or amateur digital keyboard player, and he knew very well what he aimed at with his exercises. I already indicated, though, that one needs guidance to do them well. The training is actually not for the fingers that move, but for the ones that have to hold notes down without tension. They are tone exercises, not muscle drills (see the preface to the exercises). The result of doing the exercises correctly will be a feeling of acquired "strength" (actually control) and independence of the fingers.

[nick]

My remark didn't have to do with choices in life, but with learning advanced skills. What initially seems to be the easiest movement may very well keep one from ever becoming a master, because we are all victims of habits, mostly bad habits. Slouching, for example, feels much easier than keeping the back upright, but is it therefore the right thing to do?

Isidor Philipp was a distinguished concert pianist/teacher, not an armchair theorist or amateur digital keyboard player, and he knew very well what he aimed at with his exercises. I already indicated, though, that one needs guidance to do them well. The training is actually not for the fingers that move, but for the ones that have to hold notes down without tension. They are tone exercises, not muscle drills (see the preface to the exercises). The result of doing the exercises correctly will be a feeling of acquired "strength" (actually control) and independence of the fingers.

If one thinks of ease of motion as the primary focus, the result may be the same as the above exercises. Different ways to get to Rome, some more direct, easier if you will.

Nick

[awesom_o]

  
 For most fast scale like passages I'm thinking playing with the most ease would be from the hands/fingers.

This is correct! 

[dima_76557]

If one thinks of ease of motion as the primary focus, the result may be the same as the above exercises. Different ways to get to Rome, some more direct, easier if you will.

"Easy" is a subjective parameter and can therefore not serve as a given to think up a theory that holds for everybody. I find moving my fingers from the hand bridge down into the key a piece of cake and I can't understand what's so difficult about it. Neither is there anything particularly difficult in the Philipp exercises if one knows what to do with them. If one doesn't know that, then one should avoid doing them at all cost because in that case, they will certainly cause harm.

P.S.: At the same time, judging about their value or lack thereof is off-limits for those who got stuck while doing them because they didn't really know what to do with them.

[nick]

"Easy" is a subjective parameter and can therefore not serve as a given to think up a theory that holds for everybody. I find moving my fingers from the hand bridge down into the key a piece of cake and I can't understand what's so difficult about it. Neither is there anything particularly difficult in the Philipp exercises if one knows what to do with them. If one doesn't know that, then one should avoid doing them at all cost because in that case, they will certainly cause harm.

P.S.: At the same time, judging about their value or lack thereof is off-limits for those who got stuck while doing them because they didn't really know what to do with them.

Semantics gets in the way. Most efficient, least effort most would agree. Finger on the key to depress the key is more economical than raising the finger and striking it. Using weight to depress the key is less economical then using the smaller muscles to depress the key etc. One must assume one is thinking.

Nick

[dima_76557]

Semantics gets in the way. Most efficient, least effort most would agree. Finger on the key to depress the key is more economical than raising the finger and striking it. Using weight to depress the key is less economical then using the smaller muscles to depress the key etc. One must assume one is thinking.

Sorry for being such a nerd, but "most efficient" and "least effort" may still not be the best option for musical purposes. A movement that works rather well in slow to medium tempi may fail in faster tempi. A good teacher will know from experience what works best for faster tempi and will have you practise that, even if it is not convenient or easy at all at first. Someone who is on his/her own and always picks the "easiest" options may get nowhere with a virtuoso work.

Also, when one has chord and octave leaps, for example, there are two approaches:
1) press, prepare the next one quickly and press
2) drop, "write" an elipse with the underarm, and drop.
In many works of the great Romantic literature, the second option will often give the best sound results although it is psychologically the most difficult because of the risk involved.

[nick]

Sorry for being such a nerd, but "most efficient" and "least effort" may still not be the best option for musical purposes. A movement that works rather well in slow to medium tempi may fail in faster tempi. A good teacher will know from experience what works best for faster tempi and will have you practise that, even if it is not convenient or easy at all at first. Someone who is on his/her own and always picks the "easiest" options may get nowhere with a virtuoso work.

Also, when one has chord and octave leaps, for example, there are two approaches:
1) press, prepare the next one quickly and press
2) drop, "write" an elipse with the underarm, and drop.
In many works of the great Romantic literature, the second option will often give the best sound results although it is psychologically the most difficult because of the risk involved.

Example please of movement for fast scale/arpeggio like passages where economy of motion, least effort is not best? I can be nerd like also.

Nick

[dima_76557]

Example please of movement for fast scale/arpeggio like passages where economy of motion, least effort is not best? I can be nerd like also.

Pushing every note from the key surface with the arm to the bottom on passive ("relaxed") fingers; this is "easy" for most. This is economical and works very well slowly and in moderate tempi, but will definitely make presto impossible. To prepare for brilliance in faster finger passages, one should do "finger tapping" (see that thread in the teacher's section) and "position/note grouping".

[nick]

Pushing every note from the key surface with the arm to the bottom on passive ("relaxed") fingers; this is "easy" for most. This is economical and works very well slowly and in moderate tempi, but will definitely make presto impossible. To prepare for brilliance in faster finger passages, one should do "finger tapping" (see that thread in the teacher's section) and "position/note grouping".

What is " with the arm to the bottom"?

Nick

[dima_76557]

What is " with the arm to the bottom"?

OK. I'll rephrase: pushing passive ("relaxed") fingers down with the arm from the surface of the key to the keybed. This is easy for most. It is economical and works very well for slow and moderate tempi, but it is the wrong thing to do in preparation for brilliant presto finger passages.

[nick]

OK. I'll rephrase: pushing passive ("relaxed") fingers down with the arm from the surface of the key to the keybed. This is easy for most. It is economical and works very well for slow and moderate tempi, but it is the wrong thing to do to prepare for presto passages.

Ah, when you do this it is NOT the most economical way, as many larger muscles are involved. This is where thinking comes in. I used to play with weight as the means of tone production, and although it appears the easy way it is not since many muscles are contracting to bear the weight of the arm. So an example please where it actually is more economical.

Nick

[dima_76557]

Ah, when you do this it is NOT the most economical way, as many larger muscles are involved. This is where thinking comes in. I used to play with weight as the means of tone production, and although it appears the easy way it is not since many muscles are contracting to bear the weight of the arm. So an example please where it actually is more economical.

In slower tempi, it won't matter much how one moves the keys. You won't become supertired from playing Chopin's C minor prelude with a whole-arm drop throughout the piece. Economy becomes an issue only in preparation for more virtuoso repertoire.

The issue we are discussing is not what we (you and I) think is "easy", "convenient", "economical", but what the average Joe makes of it. Your solution is "thinking", but when those "thinking" people fail to solve their problems and surf the web to read the online help links and explanations all over the Web, then "arm weight" and "relaxation" are very much propagated (mind you: by other "thinking" people!) as *the* way to solve all technical problems.

[nick]

In slower tempi, it won't matter much how one moves the keys. You won't become supertired from playing Chopin's C minor prelude with a whole-arm drop throughout the piece. Economy becomes an issue only in preparation for more virtuoso repertoire.

One will feel a certain amount of "work" even going slowly. If one uses the smaller muscles instead, it is a much different feeling, much much less work.

The issue we are discussing is not what we (you and I) think is "easy", "convenient", "economical", but what the average Joe makes of it. Your solution is "thinking", but when those "thinking" people fail to solve their problems and surf the web to read the online help links and explanations all over the Web, then "arm weight" and "relaxation" are very much propagated (mind you: by other "thinking" people!) as *the* way to solve all technical problems.

I think it is what you and I think is the correct way, and you and I disagreed on economy of motion as being king. Yes, thinking people do make mistakes, I sure have, but please don't throw the baby out with the b...   One finds where they went wrong and continues.

Nick

[dima_76557]

I think it is what you and I think is the correct way, and you and I disagreed on economy of motion as being king. Yes, thinking people do make mistakes, I sure have, but please don't throw the baby out with the b...   One finds where they went wrong and continues.

I will tell you a secret about "economy": I lift my fingers high and drop them into the key (I never hit or strike the keys) whenever I practise slowly. I deliberately enlarge the finger movement from the hand knuckle to create potential for more speed, and would you believe it? It works for me. Do not ask me to explain why, because I can't.

[nick]

I will tell you a secret about "economy": I lift my fingers high and drop them into the key (I never hit or strike the keys) whenever I practise slowly. I deliberately enlarge the finger movement from the hand knuckle to create potential for more speed, and would you believe it? It works for me. Do not ask me to explain why, because I can't.

That is a secret cause I don't see how fingers lifted high but don't strike the key. hmmm. Does the finger stop just short of the key and you press it? hmmm. I don't get it. Obviously it works for many pianists as many have high fingers and play well. So this creates the "potential" for more speed with fingers closer I assume. hmm. Don't get it. Again, practice method different than performance method. My fingers look exactly the same going slow as fast. If they don't, something is wrong.

Nick

[dima_76557]

That is a secret cause I don't see how fingers lifted high but don't strike the key. hmmm. Does the finger stop just short of the key and you press it?

As I said, I can't explain it really; it's a kind of light swing into the key and the moderate speed/acceleration of the movement itself + the weight of the finger are enough to overcome the resistance of the key. You then simply take the key down with you in the "drop", so there is no conflict of collision as would happen in really striking the key with force.

About the lifting thing and creating potential for movement: I guess it works similar to "high knee drill training" for runners. Of course, at speed, the movements themselves become smaller, but that is not of your concern so to speak. It just happens.

[nick]

As I said, I can't explain it really; it's a kind of light swing into the key and the moderate speed/acceleration of the movement itself + the weight of the finger are enough to overcome the resistance of the key. You then simply take the key down with you in the "drop", so there is no conflict of collision as would happen in really striking the key with force.

About the lifting thing and creating potential for movement: I guess it works similar to "high knee drill training" for runners. Of course, at speed, the movements themselves become smaller, but that is not of your concern so to speak. It just happens.

Have any video of your playing? audition room?

nick

[lelle]

The issue we are discussing is not what we (you and I) think is "easy", "convenient", "economical", but what the average Joe makes of it. Your solution is "thinking", but when those "thinking" people fail to solve their problems and surf the web to read the online help links and explanations all over the Web, then "arm weight" and "relaxation" are very much propagated (mind you: by other "thinking" people!) as *the* way to solve all technical problems.

And the ironical thing is that there is a big risk the average Joe who is adviced to use finger action instead is likely to just move his fingers and holding everything else rigidly in place (as opposed to having a completely free and flexible arm). Coordination is such a difficult thing to get across in writing.

[dima_76557]

Have any video of your playing? audition room?

I have been asked this question before: the answer is "no". I do have recordings from lessons and live performances, but nothing I want to share with the world right now. Let's just say I have nothing to say yet. I expect to start sharing stuff in a year or two, most likely through YouTube.

[dima_76557]

And the ironical thing is that there is a big risk the average Joe who is adviced to use finger action instead is likely to just move his fingers and holding everything else rigidly in place (as opposed to having a completely free and flexible arm). Coordination is such a difficult thing to get across in writing.

The only way to go for those who are not geniuses themselves is to find a good teacher. Even very well-made videos can't replace student-teacher interaction.