Can you play pop song spontaneously without a score?

[nia_kurniati]

How many of you can play spontaneously say pop or kids song without a score?
How good you play it? Just melody in right hand and accompaniment at left hand, or you can put lots of ornament on it?

How you learn it at first time?

I always play classic (not in full time, just from private lesson), and its hard to play without a score. Now I am taking private lesson for this thins. It runs about 4 months but still need lots of practice.
So I wonder how you all master it.
Thank you.

[gyzzzmo]

If i heard the song enough times, i usually can play it. First i play it 1 times with melody and chords, to check if the chords are right, then the ornamenting starts.
I dont know how i learned this, but i started playing in choirs and playing with soloists at young age. I think you start developing that feeling for chords just by doing it often enough, the ornamenting is just putting variaty in rhythm, chords (arpeggio's etc) and melody.

[saritmiki]

Hey

If I know the song and have the chords in front of me I can play the song and the melody by ear my problem is when it comes to score becuase I am just on the beginning 

[casparma]

....., the ornamenting is just putting variaty in rhythm, chords (arpeggio's etc) and melody.

Are there books which talk about specifically on "ornamenting" in music?

I mean, pop songs are really easy to me. After I hear it, I simply find out which key the melody is in, then I can find a variety of chords I can use.

But, I feel I am a little short on the knowledge of "ornamenting"...

any help?

[slobone]

I can usually play any melody right away, and I have a good ear for chords and bass lines. Where I have a problem is accompaniment patterns -- what style is appropriate for different kinds of music. I have books on rock, jazz, and blues but I've never really gotten around to learning them seriously.

[nyonyo]

As long as my brain can remember the melody line, I will be able to play right away both hands. I do not need to think...

It is really hearing ability. If you have played piano for say a year, and you have good hearing you can mimic pop songs easily. But if your hearing is weak, there is no way that you can play right away as soon as you hear the songs.

[casparma]

Are there books which talk about specifically on "ornamenting" in music?

I mean, pop songs are really easy to me. After I hear it, I simply find out which key the melody is in, then I can find a variety of chords I can use.

But, I feel I am a little short on the knowledge of "ornamenting"...

any help?

Any one can help me with my question in the above quote?

Personally, I can't play a melody just immediately right away. I first guess what is the pitch of the starting note. Then I can feel relatively, what the rest of the notes in the melody are.

However, I guess playing by ear CAN be practiced and trained. Personally, I NEVER play by ear. I only try like abit randomly like once or twice a week recently after I take some harmonization courses and I feel it's very easy.

Any way, please help me with the question in my quote.

thanks 

[danny elfboy]

I think it's the same problem for all of us.
I can play the melody right away and often add the right chords, but I end up playing the same broken chords or block chords. Each music has its own difficulties. Although pop music per se doesn't present the same technical and coordination problems it not easier than classical music. To arrange pop, rock, country whatever music so it doesn't sound naked or weak it's very hard. A good arranger can make the piano sounds like an entire orchestra and the sound is full and the song is gourgeous. The way most classical students play pop music with some kind of standard accompainment over a little melody is not that interesting and sounds very amateur. I had the chance to meet an arranger and I have to say their work is damn hard, their struggles are different from those of a pianist having to play virtuoso repertoire but not less hard. Besides to form a culture on popular music takes as much studying and learning as forming a culture on classical music; there's so much to say, so many techniques and form to know, so many historical knowledge to develop.

[danny elfboy]

However, I guess playing by ear CAN be practiced and trained. Personally, I NEVER play by ear. I only try like abit randomly like once or twice a week recently after I take some harmonization courses and I feel it's very easy.

It's not playing by ear.
There's much more involved.
You must take a certain instrumental and orchestral background make of electric guitars, drums, synths and voices and rearrange it so that not only it sounds complete and full but so that the underlying percussive rhythm you can't reproduce with your piano is there anyway.

To claim that playing popular music is like "playing by ear" is like claiming that to play a classical piece you have heard on the radio is just finding the melody and adding some chords. Of course even classical music is nothing by that: a melody and chords rearranged in various accompainment patterns. So they're the same identical thing a melodic line and an accompainment based on chords and to play popular music properly is the same as playing classical music properly, to play a popular song as a weak melodic line over a weak empty improvized accompainment is like playing a classical piece as a weak melodic line over a weak empty improvized accompainment.

[gyzzzmo]

I dont have experience with books of that kind, i learned it myself.
But if you want to read something afterall, my gues is that you should check some books about basic jazz improvisation.

[danny elfboy]

The best books to learn these are harmony books.
You need to study the basics of harmony, voice leading, walking bass, intervals and chords.
In fact as gyzzzmo said he sang in a choir, which is the harmony learning experience par excellence.

[casparma]

The best books to learn these are harmony books.
You need to study the basics of harmony, voice leading, walking bass, intervals and chords.
In fact as gyzzzmo said he sang in a choir, which is the harmony learning experience par excellence.

Well,  I guess what  I am talking about is not something related to how to harmonize with a melody. I personally am very satisfied with the chords I feel that I use to accompany with the melody, but I am just asking about ornamentation such as mainly how I can vary the the arrangement of chord + melody to have certain rhythms.


BTW, I don't understand what you are trying to prove about pop music. No one says pop music = playing by ear. Pop music usually is said to be easier than Classical because it's easy to start with, but not saying ALL pop music is easy. However, usually the difficulty for classical music is you need very high level of both techniques and musical appreciation to play a piece right.

[danny elfboy]

Well,  I guess what  I am talking about is not something related to how to harmonize with a melody. I personally am very satisfied with the chords I feel that I use to accompany with the melody, but I am just asking about ornamentation such as mainly how I can vary the the arrangement of chord + melody to have certain rhythms.

What you call ornamentation is actually harmonization and arranging. They are skills that starts with a knowledge of harmony and voice-leading.

However, usually the difficulty for classical music is you need very high level of both techniques and musical appreciation to play a piece right.

I don't agree, music appreciation is universal; appreciating classical music is not having an higher musical appreciation. It is therefore about different things, popular music (like other kind of music) has another role in our life and fulfill different needs or underly different circumstances.

[casparma]

I don't agree, music appreciation is universal; appreciating classical music is not having an higher musical appreciation. It is therefore about different things, popular music (like other kind of music) has another role in our life and fulfill different needs or underly different circumstances.

Yes, I agree music apreciation is universal. However, for pop music, usually you can play just its melody and corresponding chords, which aren't that hard, and any beginner can do that. It looks like playing a guitar.

I am just curious. Does any one know any composer who composes pop music, but with its structure similar to classical music?

I mean, from my personal experience, pop music really has a clear structure which makes it very easy to sight read, but I've wondered whether there's any pop musician who composes music which looks not as clear in structure?

[gyzzzmo]

Yes, I agree music apreciation is universal. However, for pop music, usually you can play just its melody and corresponding chords, which aren't that hard, and any beginner can do that. It looks like playing a guitar.

I am just curious. Does any one know any composer who composes pop music, but with its structure similar to classical music?

I mean, from my personal experience, pop music really has a clear structure which makes it very easy to sight read, but I've wondered whether there's any pop musician who composes music which looks not as clear in structure?

Freddy Mercury, his 'Bohemian Rhapsodie' is a good example i think.

[danny elfboy]

Yes, I agree music apreciation is universal. However, for pop music, usually you can play just its melody and corresponding chords, which aren't that hard, and any beginner can do that.

But you can take a classical piece and play just the melody and chords as well.
The structure of classical music is identical to pop music, it's a melody with chords at the bass only arranged in interesting ways. You can play the melody of per elise and just add chords, it sounds "correct". But just because you can do this with popular music it doesn't mean popular music is just that. Very little popular music is chords over melody, most of it is (like classical music) melody over chords arranged into interesting and complex left hand patterns and solutions. The main difference with certain classical music is that it doesn't modulate or change, there's a beginning and a refrain, but it doesn't mean that chord on the left hand it the way to play it properly just like it is not the way to play classical music properly, even if it would sound correct anyway.

[casparma]

But you can take a classical piece and play just the melody and chords as well.
The structure of classical music is identical to pop music, it's a melody with chords at the bass only arranged in interesting ways. You can play the melody of per elise and just add chords, it sounds "correct". But just because you can do this with popular music it doesn't mean popular music is just that. Very little popular music is chords over melody, most of it is (like classical music) melody over chords arranged into interesting and complex left hand patterns and solutions. The main difference with certain classical music is that it doesn't modulate or change, there's a beginning and a refrain, but it doesn't mean that chord on the left hand it the way to play it properly just like it is not the way to play classical music properly, even if it would sound correct anyway.

So, is there any place where I can find pop music with interesting arrangement which is similar in level with Chopin or Liszt?

[danny elfboy]

So, is there any place where I can find pop music with interesting arrangement which is similar in level with Chopin or Liszt?

A lot of pop music is interesting although it might in different way.
Satie is classical music too yet it is more minimal than pop.
Pop is not chords on the left hand, playing chords on the left hand is a rather amatheur and naked way to play pop music. But you can't compare pop music to Chopin. Chopin is instrumental music based on one idea which is then developed in various ways.
Pop music is vocal, is often based on social and cultural arguments and is made of an intro and a refrain. So first of all you have the limits of voice which exists also in operatic music. In second place you have a music which is based on the immediateness of message rather than something going on for 20 minutes and to be listened in silence.
But this doesn't prevent it from being interesting  and needing mastery to be played properly at the piano. Most pop music is arranged by professional arranger who have studies harmony and counterpoint thoroughly so I have to repeat it again: it is hardly block chords over a melody. You might find Simon and Garfunkel music very interesting, also Joan Baez, Bob Dylan or Led Zeppelin. I like Procularum a lot and R.EM.

[casparma]

A lot of pop music is interesting although it might in different way.
Satie is classical music too yet it is more minimal than pop.
Pop is not chords on the left hand, playing chords on the left hand is a rather amatheur and naked way to play pop music. But you can't compare pop music to Chopin. Chopin is instrumental music based on one idea which is then developed in various ways.
Pop music is vocal, is often based on social and cultural arguments and is made of an intro and a refrain. So first of all you have the limits of voice which exists also in operatic music. In second place you have a music which is based on the immediateness of message rather than something going on for 20 minutes and to be listened in silence.
But this doesn't prevent it from being interesting  and needing mastery to be played properly at the piano. Most pop music is arranged by professional arranger who have studies harmony and counterpoint thoroughly so I have to repeat it again: it is hardly block chords over a melody. You might find Simon and Garfunkel music very interesting, also Joan Baez, Bob Dylan or Led Zeppelin. I like Procularum a lot and R.EM.

As you said, music is universal. Why can't you arrange pop music in a way like Chopin for instrumental music? Obviously, this is a piano forum, and I am curious about playing pop music as a instrumental music, not vocal music.

[danny elfboy]

As you said, music is universal. Why can't you arrange pop music in a way like Chopin for instrumental music?

Whether it is Chopin or Pop music it is already arranged in what the author considered the best way to suit the intentions of the music. Such arrangement is never "chords in the left hand" which is just an amateur way to have fun with music wether you do classical and pop.

[Bob]

I can't.  I'd like to be able though.  To be able to do something.


Maybe someone could post what they're thinking of in the audition room so we know what we're talking about.

[casparma]

Whether it is Chopin or Pop music it is already arranged in what the author considered the best way to suit the intentions of the music. Such arrangement is never "chords in the left hand" which is just an amateur way to have fun with music wether you do classical and pop.

LOL, I am a pianist. So, I would like to play pop music, but pop music arranged in a way that's elegant with both varriance in dynamics, rhythms...etc, just like classical music does.
Any pieces?

So far, I've seen michael nyman's piece (The heart asks pleasure first), and yann tiersen pieces. I think they are considered pop music. They are certainly music with nice melody, however, they seem not to offer the kind of technical and dynamical satisfaction of Chopin. Of course, they are easy to begin with, and thus they are popular among starting pianists, because it gives them alot of satisfaction that they can express themselves musically without too much technical difficulty.

BUT, For instance, where can I find pop music at level 7 and beyond? pop music designed a little bit advanced for advanced pianist? :p

[danny elfboy]

LOL, I am a pianist. So, I would like to play pop music, but pop music arranged in a way that's elegant with both varriance in dynamics, rhythms...etc, just like classical music does.
Any pieces?

So far, I've seen michael nyman's piece (The heart asks pleasure first), and yann tiersen pieces. I think they are considered pop music. They are certainly music with nice melody, however, they seem not to offer the kind of technical and dynamical satisfaction of Chopin. Of course, they are easy to begin with, and thus they are popular among starting pianists, because it gives them alot of satisfaction that they can express themselves musically without too much technical difficulty.

BUT, For instance, where can I find pop music at level 7 and beyond? pop music designed a little bit advanced for advanced pianist? :p

You might try with Wiked musical score.

[slobone]

If you want to learn about pop music from written scores, a good start would be the sheet music arrangements that are published in books. Unfortunately they vary widely in quality and skill level, so look them over carefully before buying (or see what they have at your local library).

But even the worst ones will at least give you the melody and the appropriate harmonies. Even just learning to play the various rhythms, syncopation and so forth, will give you something that's different from classical music.

Incidentally, I've been trying to work with a singer friend of mine who wants me to accompany him in pop songs. The frustrating thing is that sheet music invariably has the pianist doubling the melody throughout, which is exactly what you don't want when somebody's trying to sing at the same time. So I'm going to have to come up with my own arrangements.

[casparma]

You might try with Wiked musical score.

What's "Wiked musical score"?

[danny elfboy]

Wiked is a famous broadway musical

[casparma]

Wiked is a famous broadway musical

May you please link me to a reference to this musical online? I am not sure whether or not I googling the right thing...

Many thanks

[danny elfboy]

www.wickedthemusical.com

Sorry, my fault for mispelling it.

[leshmye]

Hi,
I started learning piano the classical way, and after 8-9 years still wasn't able to play without the score. But that changed after I picked up guitar and organ and bass. I began to apply my knowledge of these other instruments back to piano, and now I am playing piano by ear!
I want to share my knowledge with others for free. For that reason I have started blogging my piano tips. Please visit my blog at www.PianoShortcuts.com. I would appreciate comments and suggestions to improve my content on the blog.
Go to the "About" page first, as you will then find out how I categorize my posts, and that will help you in navigating the site to find what you want.

Cheers!
Les Hmye

[casparma]

One approach my classmates (he can't really sight read) did was to listen to a music over and over again while trying to produce the same music on the piano arranged in an interesting way.

Over time, he did manage to play by ear quite well without knowing much of musical theory.

I guess it requires a lot of dedication.

[danny elfboy]

Hey Casparma
I just forgot to mention another option.
There are several books/methods out there that teaches you to play from fake books.
In a fake book you have the melodic line of a piece and the lyrics.
You just have chord symbols below the melodic line.
It is up to you to be a "faker" and create your own arrangements and harmony from those chord symbols. Many people are just happy with playing amateurely the chords below the melodic line. The serious faker instead use those chord symbol as a basis to create an harmonicaly rich and faithful to the original accompainment.

Those books out there called "how to play from a fake book" or "get serious with a fake book" and so on just teach you that. They use the basis of harmony and counterpoint to teach you how to create arrangement and harmony from simple chord information.

Fake books are great because you usually have more songs per page meaning that the information are less compared to a sheet. So you usually have hundreds of songs per book. Some fake book cover the whole discography of an artist while other contain the 1000 best pop songs, or rock songs or country songs of the century and so on.

How to Get Real with a Fake Book: A Guide for the Piano Arranger

[slobone]

Fake books are great because you usually have more songs per page meaning that the information are less compared to a sheet. So you usually have hundreds of songs per book. Some fake book cover the whole discography of an artist while other contain the 1000 best pop songs, or rock songs or country songs of the century and so on.

Hmm, well danny the ones I've seen that are supposed to be the 1000 greatest songs usually have like 20 great songs, 80 OK songs, and 900 songs I've never heard of... But thanks for the link to the How To book.

[keyb0ardfweak]

I usually play without a score when I arrange a song by my self..

I just practice and memorize what I arrange..

[danny elfboy]

Hmm, well danny the ones I've seen that are supposed to be the 1000 greatest songs usually have like 20 great songs, 80 OK songs, and 900 songs I've never heard of...

This risk always exists
I appreciate a lot Hal Leonard stuff, when they make compilations the material is usually well balanced and of high quality.

[nia_kurniati]

If i heard the song enough times, i usually can play it. First i play it 1 times with melody and chords, to check if the chords are right, then the ornamenting starts.
I dont know how i learned this, but i started playing in choirs and playing with soloists at young age. I think you start developing that feeling for chords just by doing it often enough, the ornamenting is just putting variaty in rhythm, chords (arpeggio's etc) and melody.

I will try this way and I have to try it alot. I can find the melody but not right away, have to try it several times first. But to know in what key that the singer sing this pop song ...  huehh not have a clue at all.
I only play classic for many years so maybe it makes my ear become lazy. I can memorize classic song but still did not improve my hearing. My hear ability isn't good.

Anyway, thank you for all your advice.

[nyonyo]

Not your ear becomes lazy, you are basically do not have good hearing ability. If you cannot even catch the melody, you should not expect yourself to be able to listen to a song and play right away. Unfortunately, this ability is not possessed by everybody.

The key is hearing. I happened to have an excellent hearing ability. As long as I can remember the melody line, I can play and harmonize in many different ways. Keep in mind, I have never learned any harmonization theory, I just can translate whatever I heard in my mind.

Having good hearing does not mean that one is a good pianist. It just makes easy to memorize songs. One can have excellent hearing but very bad interpretation or bad muscle ability. So DO NOT feel bad. Anyway, you can do nothing with not having good hearing. It is not your fault, I really believe it is a born thing. Do you feel bad not being able to run like an Olympic runner?

[nia_kurniati]

He he  I prefer the ability to play without a score. Just a little. So I can play happy birthday or kids song when people ask me in any time.
But yes I think its a born gift. My kids student around 5 years after a year lesson can know exactly without thingking is it mi, la, si, or else. Me  I make mistake within la and si! So can you imagine how bad it is.
But I know if my student play wrong notes because I see the score 

[danny elfboy]

Please visit my blog at www.PianoShortcuts.com.

Congratulations Les, a very good resource

[casparma]

Hey, I've seen some of the books on the arrangements of chords, melodies, harmonies, rhythmic patterns, etc in pop songs.

This makes me wonder, is it true that the musical pieces by Chopin and Liszt and Bach for instances, are they really ingenuous?

I mean, these books don't really give me much insight into Chopin's music, although they do make me understand pop music alot better....

just some curiosities...

[leshmye]

I can play most pop songs without a score.

I started with classical piano, then later on started learning playing guitar by chords myself. I also attended Organ lesson for a year, and from there I realized there is a certain pattern to chords. After that, I started picking up bass guitar. Then I realized that the bass guitar notes combined with chord patterns turn out to be very useful for me to play keyboard  with. Since then I have gone back to piano, by improvising what I have learned from guitar, organ and bass. This is how I have done it.
I am sharing my tips on how to play the "cheat" way on my blog for free, as it is my interest to do so. If you are keen, do drop by to check it out at PianoShortcuts.com.

Les

[nia_kurniati]

Thanks alot for the tips, I already go in PianoShortcuts.com 

[anna_crusis]

I work out how to play the melody first, then determine the chord sequence and either work out some good inversions or a suitable bass part (or both). After I've played it a few times, I embelish the right hand part a bit to make it more interesting.

I would never play a pop song off the score. They are always dreadful arrangements knocked off by hacks at the publisher's office catering for the lowest common denominator. Your own arrangement will always sound better. I only use the score for classical piano.