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Topic: Do octaves increase or decrease the difficulty of stride jumps?  (Read 2084 times)

Offline cuberdrift

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For instance, if we edited the left hand portion of Chopin's "Butterfly" etude, and for the bass notes (the one you hit in between the chords), you removed the upper note which is an octave higher, would it be harder, or easier, to execute those jumps?

And another thing, in this video (skip to 1:07):



Lisitsa plays jumps in the left hand extremely fast. However, my question is that are the bass notes within those jumps octaves, or just single notes? I looked at the score and it indicates that those were full octaves. I thought otherwise.

Offline ted

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Re: Do octaves increase or decrease the difficulty of stride jumps?
Reply #1 on: November 01, 2014, 06:00:01 AM
I have never really understood why octaves and tenths, for example in stride or ragtime, are easier for me than single notes. Might be just me, might not, I don't know. I conjecture that it has something to do with the balance of the hand as a whole, because if I play the single note with my third finger it feels better than if I use the fifth. The only exception is if the note and chord are close, in which case the fifth is easier.

Good question. I have often wondered about it but don't really know the reasons. The third finger business was a trick of my teacher in my youth. In my improvisation, funnily enough, I use left hand octaves less often these days because it seems to be a physical device with little aural advantage.
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Offline dima_76557

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Re: Do octaves increase or decrease the difficulty of stride jumps?
Reply #2 on: November 01, 2014, 07:16:21 AM
For instance, if we edited the left hand portion of Chopin's "Butterfly" etude, and for the bass notes (the one you hit in between the chords), you removed the upper note which is an octave higher, would it be harder, or easier, to execute those jumps?

Single note jumps are generally harder to find balance without a doubt because of the arch structure of the hand. Of course, if you have really tiny hands, then octaves may cause more problems because of the stretch.

And another thing, in this video (skip to 1:07):



Lisitsa plays jumps in the left hand extremely fast. However, my question is that are the bass notes within those jumps octaves, or just single notes? I looked at the score and it indicates that those were full octaves. I thought otherwise.

Octaves. You can see the "thumb keys" go down if you pay good attention. If it's too fast visually, download and slow down the clip.
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline cuberdrift

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Re: Do octaves increase or decrease the difficulty of stride jumps?
Reply #3 on: November 01, 2014, 10:21:32 AM
Thank you, guys.

However, despite being a more "secure" position, I still think that this somehow makes it slightly harder to do fast. I think it's a factor of the "repeated thumb action"; both the octave, and the chord after it, require the use of the thumb, putting some kind of a limit to the speed in which it can be executed. However, if one were to eliminate the use of the thumb for the octave, there seems to be virtually no limit to the speed in which it can be executed.

To simplify this thought, take, for instance, a C note being played, followed by a C note above it, then back to the C below, then the C on top, and so forth. Played very, very quickly, you result in some sort of a "tremolo" effect, which isn't particularly difficult.

However, things change when the C note below is transformed into an octave; now you have, for example, a C1 and C2 octave, followed by a single C2 note, then back to the C1/C2 octave, then back to the C2 note, and so forth; this is MUCH harder than the first action in that one has to consider the repetition of the thumb's action.

Now if this is applied to stride jumps, one sees that, while more secure, there's still some factor making octave jumping a bit harder. If I just played C1, then C2-E2-G2, and so forth, I would just need to use my pinky, then my 4-2-1 or 3-2-1 fingers for the chord. It is comparably easier to do this than play a C1/C2 octave, then a C2-E2-G2 chord, since my thumb needs to repeatedly be pressing keys.

What do you think?  ???

Anyways...as a side note, what about tenths? This is what scares me. Apparently jazz pianists Waller and Tatum took it to this level. How does one without enormous hands play them without trouble?

I also haven't quite encountered any piece from the Classical tradition that isn't jazz-influenced to adopt the Waller/Tatum approach. Is there any composer that utilizes this device? I think the reason why Waller did it was perhaps to turn the bass note into some sort of "chord"; it gives the color of a third, rather than the dry, bangy tone of an octave. Tatum, on the other hand, would "break" the tenth and accent the upper note, which sort of functions as an added voicing, like in his I Know That You Know improvisation.

I was wondering if their hands were so large that the tenth functions the same way it does with us on octaves; does it make it easier than just single bass notes?

In my improvisation, funnily enough, I use left hand octaves less often these days because it seems to be a physical device with little aural advantage.

I'm not sure but it might have a tendency to make it sound bangier and thus more exciting? I dunno I mean just look at Horowitz here.  ;D

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Do octaves increase or decrease the difficulty of stride jumps?
Reply #4 on: November 01, 2014, 10:42:25 AM
To simplify this thought, take, for instance, a C note being played, followed by a C note above it, then back to the C below, then the C on top, and so forth. Played very, very quickly, you result in some sort of a "tremolo" effect, which isn't particularly difficult.

I can give you a counter-example. Try doing the notorious one-note skips with both hands in Liszt's Don Juan transcription. Actually, the preparatory exercise (which is a lot easier) for that kind of skips is to do it in octaves first. That way, the skips become actually smaller in your imagination. You then simply rotate to and fro to land either on the thumb or on the pinky, but the "octave" feel is still in your hands. If you don't have that proprioception, the passage will never ever be clean. You can find that training/teaching principle in Liszt's Technical Exercises.
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.
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