Forgetting pieces right beofre lessons

[immortalbeloved]

Hey,
So, I have a question about something and I love you guys all here so much because you all love piano unlike my real life friends.

Is it normal to forget parts of pieces you are fantastic at home when you are about to perform, even if it is ''performing'' in lessons? This happens often-too often. I of course just break down in fear. It usually goes well, but it is amazing how I will make mistakes that I never even thought possible while at home. Is this normal, does it go away with time?

It really makes you appreciate even more people who play in front of big crowds--or maybe they have gifts from the heavens and never suffer from this.

[outin]

I forget things all the time, especially on my lessons 

[dcstudio]

very common complaint... "but I can play it perfectly at home"

There is a trick I have taught many students to combat this--and I have had great results with it..   If you make up lyrics to the main themes of your piece and sing them in your head while you play.. you can store all kinds of information that will help.   Simple things like note names, dynamic markings, chord progressions and the like can all be used in your lyrics to help you remember.  If you practice these lyrics both at the piano and away from the piano... they will play in your head as you perform.   This also helps to keep that brain busy so it doesn't crash as easily, and you may also notice that you are far more comfortable.

Students tend to rely heavily on muscle memory which "forgets" at the slightest distraction...plan what you will think about while you play and you will reduce the chance of this happening.

[adodd81802]

I watched a documentary that addressed this and they made a couple of interesting points.

When practicing at home, you are not just practicing on your piano, but your brain takes in everything, the smell of your home, the feel of your bench, the reflections off your piano, the colours of the walls, the echo of your notes and your focus so much on your performance that it all combines into the performance itself.

You go somewhere else and pieces fall apart, there's different smells,  different walls, audiences, colours etc etc your brain has to re-adjust, and while that's re-adjusting, it can't concentrate on the performance. You then have "mind black-outs" and it is in this process you are relying on your 'muscle memory' to hit the correct notes.

Imagine biting into what you're told is an apple and it tastes like chocolate. messes with the brain lol.

There's also the subconscious pressure of knowing "this is it" no chance for failure when performing for someone.

Practicing is not just about hitting the correct notes! A few suggestions are:

See if you can practice in different places, on different pianos and find out your hiccups and work on them, also getting your brain used to performing pieces in different surroundings.

Record your performances whether in different places or even at home with the intent on doing a 1-record only session and tell yourself you will be uploading on here or to youtube, trick yourself into thinking "this is it" and see if you have any hiccups and work on those.

Consider playing with your eyes closed! you'll be surprised at actually how easy it is even for jumps, and it takes away a lot of information for your brain to process allowing you to focus more on your notes.

Try and focus on one point whether that's down at the piano or up at a certain common item like you could put say a figurine on your piano and only look at that, then where-ever you go there will be a common ground that your brain can associate with your piece.

Lastly even if you are at a performance level of a piece consider slow practice of bars, starting/stopping at bars and then random bar starts. A true test of how well your brain knows a piece is if you stop anywhere and can then continue without looking at the music, if you can start anywhere within a piece and know how to continue and slow practice gives your brain and eyes more time to engage what you're doing to take control of the fingers, if you forget notes or stumble in slow practice your brain possibly isn't engaged enough and you've relied too much on muscle memory.

Hopefully some of these tips may help.

[adodd81802]

very common complaint... "but I can play it perfectly at home"
Students tend to rely heavily on muscle memory which "forgets" at the slightest distraction...plan what you will think about while you play and you will reduce the chance of this happening.

So essentially what DC said but not waffling on like I have

[dcstudio]

no you made a VERY GOOD POINT...  situational transient talent happens a lot.   I gave them the tip.. but you explained very nicely why it works...

[kawai_cs]

You go somewhere else and pieces fall apart, there's different smells,  different walls, audiences, colours etc etc your brain has to re-adjust, and while that's re-adjusting, it can't concentrate on the performance. You then have "mind black-outs" and it is in this process you are relying on your 'muscle memory' to hit the correct notes.

Oh no, you made me scared! I have a recital coming in several days and no possibility to even try the grand. Have not seen/smelled the concert hall, either. Damn it.
I started considering buying a handkerchief and putting it always in front of me when practicing and then for performance and also using the same perfume for practice and performance. Would it work?

[visitor]

Oh no, you made me scared! I have a recital coming in several days and no possibility to even try the grand. Have not seen/smelled the concert hall, either. Damn it.
I started considering buying a handkerchief and putting it always in front of me when practicing and then for performance and also using the same perfume for practice and performance. Would it work?

i'll second the above since one of the replies was spot on. Performance and practice and performance-practice are different indeed, they are related, but the goals and learning processes for them are distinct/separate for sure.

this will come with practice, but what was addressed above is correct, you have to practice performing/the performance not just practice the music (though knowing the music so well you cannot play in correctly is part of prep, you cannot 'over prepare' you need to know the score and music inside and out). --the better learned the music is, the less the situational aspects matter.  Kinesthetic memory is for sure one of the first to fail you under pressure, you need to be able to know exactly what you are playing while you play it (ie know the chord you are on, where you are going, what the score looks like in your mind).  You also need to be able to just pick a measure or section within a measure and just start playing from there just like if you had been playing from the beginning. You also need to be solid enough to just skip to any section on the spot and play on.
The above helps with recovering from any bauble at the piano. Many times if you don't show it in your face and don't stop playing and simply transition (which is why knowing harmonies can help since you can usually just make something up that 'fits' to get skip smoothly to a new spot).
 you also want to create specific memory sections in the music so if a catastrophic failure happens you just skip to the next section and on  you go.
The best way to prepare for this if you cannot access the hall or specific piano you will play on is to play as many different pianos and rooms as possible. you must also have mock performances where you play for friends, others, etc. a close alternative is recording with full intent and knowledge you will share the video. this places a similar nerves stressor on you.
The more you do it, the better you get, it will get to the point for some that you enjoy the stage, it's actually the least feared part of the process for me.
It's the 'fun part', that is, you have spent hours and weeks, months, working on something, and the audience is on your side, you have the privilege to get up there and tell them, OK this is really cool everyone, watch this!...
then just live in the moment and create something unique at the piano, share/express, enjoy the attention and spotlight.
Good luck.

[kawai_cs]

It's the 'fun part', that is, you have spent hours and weeks, months, working on something, and the audience is on your side, you have the privilege to get up there and tell them, OK this is really cool everyone, watch this!...
then just live in the moment and create something unique at the piano, share/express, enjoy the attention and spotlight.
Good luck.

That sounds right and so motivating indeed. This is really hard work to prepare a piece for performance and thus performing it should be actually seen as a reward - because you have the possibility to present to an audience the results of years of your hard work.
I wish I can get to this attitude one day (hopefully sooner than later). Thanks visitor!

[dcstudio]

I started considering buying a handkerchief and putting it always in front of me when practicing and then for performance and also using the same perfume for practice and performance. Would it work?

WOW!!! 
you know.. that's a really cool idea... or  like aromatherapy with maybe eucalyptus or peppermint extract.  That is really kind of visionary kawai--that takes the prepare your mind thing to a whole different level.  Incorporating your sense of smell into your performance...wow--forward thinking...

you have to try it Kawai... I really want to know if it works..   I have a gig on Saturday...think I might try it as well just to see what happens...

[kawai_cs]

Dcstudio, good idea, I will use lavender oil instead of perfume, it is supposed to calm you down (and keep moths away haha) + I like the smell.
I don't think you need it with your experience, silly

[dcstudio]

Dcstudio, good idea, I will use lavender oil instead of perfume, it is supposed to calm you down (and keep moths away haha) + I like the smell.
I don't think you need it with your experience, silly

Experienced or not I want to try it anyway... who knows?  That is such a great idea... I have to check it out.  I can't recommend it to someone else unless I have tried it myself, you know?

[visitor]

Experienced or not I want to try it anyway... who knows?  That is such a great idea... I have to check it out.  I can't recommend it to someone else unless I have tried it myself, you know?

the approach is backed by experience and anecdotal data.
i typically use these memory hacks.  it's the reason you want to recreate testing /performance conditions as much as possible in  terms of prep vs. the read deal.
FYI
July 10, 1990
Memory: It Seems a Whiff of Chocolate Helps

By The Associated Press
THE power of an odor to stimulate memory, familiar to anybody in whom a whiff of perfume or cologne has stirred thoughts of a long-lost lover, has proved itself in a research laboratory.

College students who smelled chocolate during a word exercise and again the next day did better at remembering their answers than others denied the memory-evoking aroma.

The researcher, Frank Schab, said a memory strategy based on odor could help students studying for multiple exams or airline pilots training for emergencies.

How Smell Can Tell

His work provides the first firm scientific evidence that odors can help bring back memories, said Brian Lyman of the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia.

Mr. Schab, who did the experiments while at Yale University, now does psychological research at the General Motors Research Laboratories in Warren, Mich. He presented his results in this month's issue of The Journal of Experimental Psychology: Learning, Memory and Cognition.

''People seem to believe from their own experiences that odors are special, in the sense that they can recall very vividly events from 20, 30 years ago,'' he said.

Aroma and Emotion

Mr. Lyman said odors, unlike sights or sounds, are processed through the brain's limbic system, which is involved in emotions. That might help odors bring back memories with emotional overtones, he said.

In one experiment, 72 Yale undergraduates were presented with a list of 40 common adjectives and told to write down the opposite of each word. They were not told that the next day they would be asked to recall the words they had written.

Each student was exposed to a chocolate smell during the word exercise only, during the later recall test only, on both occasions or on neither. All students were told to imagine the smell of chocolate on both occasions.

Those who were exposed to the smell of chocolate during the word exercise and again in the recall test recalled an average of 21 percent of the words they had written. That was significantly better than the best average from the other groups, 17 percent.

Even Mothballs Worked

A follow-up experiment showed that the same odor must be present upon learning and testing to get a memory benefit. There were no differences in the effect between men and women.

Mr. Schab also found that chocolate and mothball odors worked equally well, suggesting that a smell's pleasantness does not affect its power to stimulate memory.

Such research has many potential applications, Mr. Schab said. For instance, students studying for exams in several subjects at a time might benefit from using a different odor for each topic. And using a particular odor when training pilots to handle an emergency, and again when that emergency occurs, might ''bring back a lot of information about how to do things, what to do next, what to look for,'' he said.

The experimental results fit a hypothesis, widely accepted by psychologists, that some details about the environment in which a person learns something are stored in the brain along with the learned material. Such details can then be used to help retrieve the material.

For example, Mr. Lyman said, research shows that students perform better if they take a test in the same room in which they learned the material. Mr. Schab said he was now investigating whether odors work better than other cues.

[focarol]

Don't worry, that's completely normal. You will gradually become better at playing in front of people as you continue doing it. Sometimes there are other reasons for it though, such as being 100% reliant on muscle memory alone. Because then, if it ever were to fail, you'd have nothing to fall back on.

[dcstudio]

the approach is backed by experience and anecdotal data.

 Mr. Schab said he was now investigating whether odors work better than other cues.

Cool!

Well, let's put it to the test shall we?   Sounds like this could really work.   I am kind of excited to try it.  Thanks visitor... great info.

[immortalbeloved]

Well yikes,

I might then, or now, just record a one time piece on my iPhone and force myself-NO MATTER WHAT-- to post it here and be killed by you all.

When I should I mention I have only had 8 months of real lessons--after the bad comments or before them.

[dcstudio]

Well yikes,

I might then, or now, just record a one time piece on my iPhone and force myself-NO MATTER WHAT-- to post it here and be killed by you all.

When I should I mention I have only had 8 months of real lessons--after the bad comments or before them.

my friend, you will not be killed here for posting a less than perfect performance unless you do it with blatant arrogance...    those who post and ask for feedback... may not get all glowing comments... but people here are really only mean to the ones who are overly-boastful, or are cursed with an inability to gauge their own progress and believe themselves to be incredible pianists--despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.   Those people get ripped to shreds..lol.

don't sweat it... post something

[immortalbeloved]

My dear DC,


It is only because of people like you that I am going to post on here. I still remember your kindness on my other posts (I have a meeting soon with a doctor by the way).

[dcstudio]

My dear DC,


It is only because of people like you that I am going to post on here. I still remember your kindness on my other posts (I have a meeting soon with a doctor by the way).

awwww...why thank you very much     glad to hear about the Doc--and PLEASE post your diagnosis.  You can make quite a contribution to the forum by doing so as hand issues scare the living hell out of every single person here.   All of us have a vested interest in this.

In light of the fact that you have posted about your hand issues, ... and you are very honest about  where you are musically...  no one here will have any problem with you whatsoever.  I would venture to guess that your video will be met with nothing but encouragement...  and constructive advice.

believe it or not... most pianists are pretty happy when someone decides to start their journey towards "piano nirvana"  -- we are a dying breed.

[visitor]

Circadian rhythms affect it too.  I used to not schedule jurries outside of the time window i would normally not be practicing. So if i usually had an intense block from 9-11, then iade sure to sign up for a spot then and certainly did not try to get one at 1pm.
Later on i coached e studentse i would be accompanying and when we were down to dress rehearsals i mandated they be at an hour that was in line with the performance
  So if we were on at 11am, i would not be doing 7pm rehearsals.
Made a bug difference for me and when ive been boxes out of preffered windows the performances have had some lapses in attention or other strange baubles that never occured in practice.
 

[CC]

Beloved: bad news: this is sooo common, it's not funny. good news: there are solutions!!! Our two daughters were taught by a teacher whose students routinely won most of the top prizes in piano competitions and rarely made mistakes or had blackouts.  Why??? I asked.  I found most of the answers.  (1) always memorize first, then practice only from memory; if you practice until you can play it satisfactorily, then memorize it, you will NEVER memorize it well -- reasons are too long to explain here. If you really want to memorize well, memorize Hands Separate first, then Hands Together.  (2) when practicing, always play it at least once slowly before quitting or going on to something else. Never play your best (fastest) and quit, because fast play only confuses the brain so next time you play it, you never know what will happen; usually, worse. (3) this is the hardest part: never over-practice on performance day; in fact our teacher's rule was: play once medium speed, once at almost full speed (do not exceed full speed!), and once slowly on performance day -- THAT'S ALL!!!  This is so difficult to do, but once you do it, and your performance comes out terrific, you will be convinced and will do it every time. When memorizing, you need Mental Play training, which is the best way to fight nervousness.

[keypeg]

I am seeing a steps 1, 2, 3 again like in the book, which is what we just discussed in the other thread.   These particular things may or may not work for the OP.  It is a thing that might be tried out and played with.  My impression, when reading the post, is that it is the one and only way, with only one possible set of cause-effects and that would be a wrong way of approaching it.  Over a decade ago I made my first forays into lessons on another instrument, and when things went awry I went into forums.  It is all too easy to take advice verbatim, especially when it seems to be an absolute truth and when you are still new and searching.  I have become very aware of this since.

Ideas - various:

There is more than one reason for flubbing a piece in a lesson.  Treating a lesson as a performance where you must perform it well in front of the teacher is one reason.  It creates anxiety.  A lesson is not a performance.  It's where you and your teacher look at what you are doing, where you are at, and your teacher helps refine your abilities and fosters your growth.  Changing that attitude alone, if it exists, already works wonders.

Where you put your attention also makes a difference.  We are taught to be polite and be aware of the person we are visiting.  When you play in front of a teacher you have to be "impolite" and ignore the teacher so that you can put all your attention on your piece - then shift your attention back on the teacher; but on the task at hand that you are both talking about, and away from any concerns about whether the teacher likes what you did or likes you as a student.

A twin to the above involves your practising at home.  We spend our lives being relatively inattentive to what we are doing.  If you stay absolutely aware of your practising while you practise, and of specific details and goals that you work toward, then you will remember more.  It can be shocking to discover how little we can be aware from moment to moment.  To do this, you also have to have specific goals to work toward.

In regards to memorizing, music works in patterns.  Think of how easy it is to remember knock knock jokes because there is a formula to it: Knock knock - Who's there - [variable text] - [variable text] who? - [variable text] punchline.  A simple piece of music has a kind of call-answer "sentence", a second sentence that fits with it, which naturally completes itself in your mind.  It pops up into the dominant key and does it again there, then pops down in the original key and repeats itself.  A piece in sonata-allegro form does something similar but in expanded form.  In rondo form you keep repeating something.  It's like language, and music is related to language in some ways.  You also have chord structures that work together in sequences.  I IV V I and similar which you can learn to recognize, and which make sense as you learn about it and become familiar.  As soon as things make sense, they are easier to remember.

Which brings us to another thing: as we learn more and things become more familiar, then we can also remember more.  In the same vein, when you are first laying down your first skills and need to concentrate on a lot of new things, you will not remember as well as a veteran player, because that veteran player already has a lot of skills on automatic.  There is nothing wrong with flubbing things in lessons; teachers expect you to and find it ok.

Another thing again on that point: teachers are there to help you with what you cannot do or cannot do well yet.  If you were perfect, there would be no point in lessons. This knowledge can again remove the anxiety which can cause difficulties in lessons.

Personally I am a fan of developing strong reading skills so that the question of memory is moot, but that is a controversial subject.  If someone wants to memorize, or their teacher wants them to, then that isn't a subject to be gotten into.  

These are ideas to play with.  Any of them may be right for you or wrong for you, or only partly right.  That probably goes for any of our ideas.  Though I have seen some excellent ones.  That includes Dr. Chang's.  It all depends on where you are at, what the actual problems are, and what works for you.

[hardy_practice]

Beloved: bad news: this is sooo common, it's not funny. good news: there are solutions!!! Our two daughters were taught by a teacher whose students routinely won most of the top prizes in piano competitions and rarely made mistakes or had blackouts.  Why??? I asked.  I found most of the answers.  (1) always memorize first, then practice only from memory; if you practice until you can play it satisfactorily, then memorize it, you will NEVER memorize it well -- reasons are too long to explain here. If you really want to memorize well, memorize Hands Separate first, then Hands Together.  (2) when practicing, always play it at least once slowly before quitting or going on to something else. Never play your best (fastest) and quit, because fast play only confuses the brain so next time you play it, you never know what will happen; usually, worse. (3) this is the hardest part: never over-practice on performance day; in fact our teacher's rule was: play once medium speed, once at almost full speed (do not exceed full speed!), and once slowly on performance day -- THAT'S ALL!!!  This is so difficult to do, but once you do it, and your performance comes out terrific, you will be convinced and will do it every time. When memorizing, you need Mental Play training, which is the best way to fight nervousness.

This is some of the best, well thought out advice I've seen on the net.  I'm one who's learnt all this from years of experience but shamefully   couldn't put it so clearly and succinctly.  STUDY EVERY WORD!  

[immortalbeloved]

Beloved: bad news: this is sooo common, it's not funny. good news: there are solutions!!! Our two daughters were taught by a teacher whose students routinely won most of the top prizes in piano competitions and rarely made mistakes or had blackouts.  Why??? I asked.  I found most of the answers.  (1) always memorize first, then practice only from memory; if you practice until you can play it satisfactorily, then memorize it, you will NEVER memorize it well -- reasons are too long to explain here. If you really want to memorize well, memorize Hands Separate first, then Hands Together.  (2) when practicing, always play it at least once slowly before quitting or going on to something else. Never play your best (fastest) and quit, because fast play only confuses the brain so next time you play it, you never know what will happen; usually, worse. (3) this is the hardest part: never over-practice on performance day; in fact our teacher's rule was: play once medium speed, once at almost full speed (do not exceed full speed!), and once slowly on performance day -- THAT'S ALL!!!  This is so difficult to do, but once you do it, and your performance comes out terrific, you will be convinced and will do it every time. When memorizing, you need Mental Play training, which is the best way to fight nervousness.

Dear CC,

Thank you for your post. I hope this question does not introduce to many difficulties, but, how does one distinguish whether they memorized something vs muscle memory? Or, are these two things similar to a certain extent?

Once again, thank you for your original comment. I will try to put to use your recommendations.

[hardy_practice]

It's not one thing or the other.  Muscle memory is with us all time.  There's nothing you can do that doesn't use muscle memory but also builds it.  The trouble is in times of stress it fails (as all the body is wanting to do is get the hell out of there).  The other types one might classify as artificial and I would think only humans use them.  If you can picture yourself playing a piece in your mind note-for-note (Mental Play) with no hesitation, repetition or deviation (so to speak) then you've put it at arm's reach from the fight or flight hormones.  The only other sure way is to have perfect play-by-ear skills - to have those you need start at about 4 years old.

[outin]

It's not one thing or the other.  Muscle memory is with us all time.  There's nothing you can do that doesn't use muscle memory but also builds it.  The trouble is in times of stress it fails (as all the body is wanting to do is get the hell out of there).  The other types one might classify as artificial and I would think only humans use them.  If you can picture yourself playing a piece in your mind snote-for-note (Mental Play) with no hesitation, repetition or deviation (so to speak) then you've put it at arm's reach from the fight or flight hormones.  The only other sure way is to have perfect play-by-ear skills - to have those you need start at about 4 years old.

True.

Also since the way we use our memory while playing tends to be highly procedural, we associate the next thing to what comes before it (not only notes but also the different memory clues we use). When there's a gap (the focus shifts away) we don't know what to do. To diminish this reliance it's good to practice starting over from as many spots as possible in the score, thus shortening the processes we can only handle as one unit.

But to play without any reliance of procedural memory is not possible, at least not for an average human and definitely not a beginner. One might be able to learn a few pieces on the level of intimately such as being able to remember any separate part or note consciously, but to learn everything that way would take far too much time to be productive for the ultimate goal: To be able to make music.

In memorizing, for me it works best to first memorize larger chuncks and then later "break" them into smaller parts again to solidify my memory. For other people it works best to perfectly memorize small chunks first and then just put them together. It's often referred as a difference in individual learning styles, holistic vs. sequential. I am in the other extreme, most people probably fall somewhere in the middle.

[CC]

Keypeg: your remark about 1,2,3, method makes no sense. It is like saying that 2+2=4, or stop at every red light are 1,2,3 type instructions and aren't necessarily good; of course, everything has exceptions but what we are discussing ideas, not hairsplitting minute probabilities. EG, memorizing BEFORE practicing has oodles of reasons why it works, the most important of which is that you have to repeat so many times during practice, that you will never have another chance of practicing it that many times for memorizing.  Why waste it?  And you are starting it at the base level, almost note-by-note, something you will never do again, etc., etc. So you need to be able to see the difference  between dogma without support (dogma that results from ignorance), and plain old info.

General: There are so many types of memory, and each is actually quite difficult to define.  The way I look at it, is that it is a mistake to define one memory and try to follow it perfectly because you are throwing away most of what you need.  The reason is that the brain is too complex and we don't quite understand it, especially memory.  When I don't understand something, I just invent a temporary "best explanation" and use it as my base of operation. I hypothesize that memory is in a memory field in the brain like a holograph and is permanent; you can't forget what you have learned.  But we do forget because we can't recall it. Why? I hypothesize that memory recall uses something like quantum mechanics where the probability of something happening is proportional to the overlap of wave functions between the starting and ending states; in memory case, it is the overlap between the initial idea and what you want to recall, such as john and his name.  This explains why memory is associative, which is not just a hypothesis -- plenty of proof for that. Net net, what are we to do?  The answer seems to be to free ourselves from the "best memory method" and accept the fact that we have many, many, memories whether we like it or not; so let's make use of them.  So the next job is to try to identify what memories YOU are good at.  We have to have muscle (or hand) memory; that's why we practice scales and arps and chords.  I use keyboard memory a lot because I re-inforce it every time I play, and mental play because it is the basis of anything we do in life and I can practice it away from the piano, and photographic memory because if you keep using it, you can get really good at it after a few years.  In addition, you can't help music memory which is one of the best memory algorithms because it is part of the automatic brain response to music, and structural memory which intrigues me about how the composer composed, etc.  Clearly, the more the better, which brings us to the important realization that the more we memorize, the more we can memorize if memory is truly associative.

[keypeg]

Answering:  1.  Getting lost in a lesson can have several different causes, and I set out some of them in my post.  2.  I was not addressing the general idea of memorizing before practising, but the very specific steps.  We discussed this in the other thread, namely that it is best to take things as guidelines to play with rather than ultra strictly verbatim.  I have applied some of the principles that you have listed myself - for example in regards to what to do before a performance - but as a student I also played with it according to the circumstances.  I observed and weighed things, and they got tweaked accordingly.  I suspect that this is also what you would want, rather than a blind point-for-point following.  Am I correct?   Actually a + b = c, and c - a = b; the answer is not always 4, because a and b can have any kind of value.  General principles work like that - we don't want 2 + 2 = 4 specifically, and that can happen.  I hope my metaphor comes across.

In regards to memory and its various aspects, and also learning, I lean toward what I learned in pedagogy, then in work with students, and then again by discussing and observing with a few excellent music teachers in recent years.  I don't think we are that much in disagreement though I might want to add a few things.  Rather, I'm cautious about anything that might be applied too strictly and verbatim.

I cannot relate to the idea of note-by-note, or muscle memory from playing something over and over, because I have never done that, but I understand that this is what you want to help students overcome.  That would indeed be a problem.  My earliest memory of piano practice is when I was about 9 years old and totally self-taught.  I was given a handed down book of sonatinas starting with Clementi.  I am a pattern person.  I perceived the call-answer, and what turns out to be sonata-allegro form like a child recognizes the pattern in a knock-knock joke.  The Alberti bass chord progressions predicted themselves.  I heard the notes like you will pre-hear a favourite family tale that is always told around the campfire, and then "retold" the story.  A series of scales in a sequence that is used to modulate simply made sense.  I have never been in the note-by-note or muscle-memory world.  In fact, I've had to learn that part of it, in order to get at detailed things in more complex music. .... and that brings us to another matter, namely that people have very different thinking and learning styles.  That is why I find it important for these ideas to be taken as ideas and principles, and not followed blindly step by step unless that works for the individual.  I would have the same concern if it was my own ideas that could get followed.

[CC]

Proper memorizing can be a great time saver; so done correctly, memorizing becomes a necessity, not a special talent or a luxury. 

If you study proper memory methods, you discover that the procedures for memorizing and learning to play a piece are basically the same. So if you learn to play and then memorize, you need to go through the same procedure twice and nobody has the time or patience to do that. But if you memorize before you practice bar-by-bar, etc., memorizing a bar is trivial and if you need to repeat that bar many times, memory is automatic, effortless; in fact, the learning process is accelerated because you don't need to look at the music anymore. That is, what you do is to make every learning process do double duty: learn and memorize simultaneously.  This eliminates the memorizing process in the "learn and then memorize" method, accelerates the learning process, and gives the best memory you can get.  That is why memorizing is a necessity; it is a very useful learning tool.  Why do you think all concert pianists perform hours from memory?

I once attended Robert Taub's series of concerts in which he performed two or three LVB sonatas in each concert (!), all from memory, and he ended up performing all the LVB sonatas. Taub is Combe's student, and my book is based on Combe's teachings.  I first met Taub when he was a young student at Combe's school. That's where Taub first learned to memorize, and one thing Combe insisted on was to memorize first; it makes so much sense. Memorizing is a necessity.

[CC]

PS:  did I forget to mention that learning to memorize can raise your IQ? The human brain is an amazing organ because it is associative, which means that the more you learn or memorize, the more powerful it gets, because the learning process (education) gives it more tools to do its job. Computers will run faster if you add more memory or software. This is why there are geniuses who can do incredible things, although their brains may not be that different from ours.  In the last 15 years, I have started to lean towards the idea that we were wrong all this time about someone like Mozart, whom we thought were geniuses and therefore became great musicians.  I'm beginning to wonder if the truth is the other way around -- that it was music that helped to develop his brain. 

[keypeg]

That is ONE way of seeing things along one particular path.  It also assumes that if one does not do it this way, then one is "learning" music through repetitions etc.  There are other paths and approaches.  If someone ends up with an excellent teacher whose approach is not the same, then that should be followed and tried.  I am not against the proposed approach, but only saying that there are other scenarios.

[briansaddleback]

This whole thread has been very informative and thought-provoking for me. Thank you.

[hardy_practice]

That is ONE way of seeing things along one particular path.  It also assumes that if one does not do it this way, then one is "learning" music through repetitions etc.  There are other paths and approaches.  

Can you, in a nutshell, share one?  In my book the brain works how the brain works.

[kawai_cs]

@Dcstudio, so how did the gig go and did you use any fragrant or visual help as we were talking about?

[dcstudio]

it was outside and it poured rain all day.   No amount of aromatherapy was going to make it right. .LOL    It was pretty rough.    we only played an hour and called it a day..

[keypeg]

Can you, in a nutshell, share one?  In my book the brain works how the brain works.

One of my problems with what I read is that it put things into a nutshell.  I haven't figured out yet how to do a quick write-up of what I learned from my professors in educational psychology, followed by the mentors in my internships, followed by what I learned in practice while teaching.  What I have been saying repeatedly is that having ONE single way of approaching things is the part that bothers me.

In regards to the question of forgetting pieces right before a lesson, or having problems in lessons that you don't have at home, there is more than one cause, and I listed a number of them.

[hardy_practice]

One of my problems with what I read is that it put things into a nutshell.  I haven't figured out yet how to do a quick write-up of what I learned from my professors in educational psychology, followed by the mentors in my internships, followed by what I learned in practice while teaching. 

I take it that's a no then?  and you're a teacher now?  Hmm.

[dcstudio]

PS:  did I forget to mention that learning to memorize can raise your IQ? The human brain is an amazing organ because it is associative, which means that the more you learn or memorize, the more powerful it gets, because the learning process (education) gives it more tools to do its job. Computers will run faster if you add more memory or software. This is why there are geniuses who can do incredible things, although their brains may not be that different from ours.  In the last 15 years, I have started to lean towards the idea that we were wrong all this time about someone like Mozart, whom we thought were geniuses and therefore became great musicians.  I'm beginning to wonder if the truth is the other way around -- that it was music that helped to develop his brain. 

There are some things that you and I whole-heartedly agree on Dr. Chang.. and this is a great example.

I wore the headphones on my belly when I was pregnant... and now my daughter plays the French Horn (1st Chair orchestra--+ regional and state band member as well), Piano, Guitar, and has won All-State as a vocalist twice.  Her ear is phenomenal...   I taught her how to improvise, play chords with her LH and pick things out by ear first.. THEN she learned to read music.  She has taken formal voice lessons and of course the has a Horn teacher but, the rest she has learned from my husband and myself. Music made her smart... I fully believe that.

[keypeg]

nm

[dcstudio]

I take it that's a no then?  and you're a teacher now?  Hmm.

now hey there Hardy... ( )

your Dr. C has never taught a piano lesson and you sure listen to his advice... give the lady a chance.  Keypeg is a pretty smart cookie, too.

[CC]

I have given lessons, starting in high school, I taught kids too poor to afford a piano so I stayed after school to let them into the music room where they could practice.  Later, I gave lessons to get youngsters started on piano, especially if they were too poor to afford lessons, just to see if it was worthwhile for them.  I just never charged them. I was never a professional teacher.

[CC]

PS: most piano teachers are lucky to graduate 5,000 students in a lifetime; from counts of distinct downloads, over 100,000 readers had downloaded my book all over the world, in ten languages by 2013, when I stopped counting. And I have received hundreds of emails (English only) to the effect that my book helped them more than their piano teachers. But I never charged for my lessons.  So how do you define teacher?

[hardy_practice]

 I taught her how to improvise, play chords with her LH and pick things out by ear first.. THEN she learned to read music.  

That's how Cara Schumann was taught.

 Keypeg is a pretty smart cookie, too.

empty barrels, noise.

And I have received hundreds of emails (English only) to the effect that my book helped them more than their piano teachers.

There are masses of poor piano teachers out there.

[yewtree]

I don't understand forgetting before lessons.  

Does anyone follow from the music sheet whilst playing or at least refer to it, or even if relying on memory, refer to the music sheet now and then.?

[bernadette60614]

I just had my performance debut...granted in front of other students and my teacher prior to a dinner party, and something I did which I think really helped:

I played when I was sleepy, tired, unmotivated, nervous, rattled, on my own piano and on as many unfamiliar keyboards as I could.  It helped me to get over that feeling that if all the conditions weren't perfect...environmentally, musically and in terms of focus...that I just couldn't play.

My performance wasn't recording worthy, but I was far less rattled when I did play in front of my little group.

[xdjuicebox]

My memory is mainly theory based and music based...I remember the piece I'm playing back and forth since usually I won't learn it until I've heard it at least a dozen times, or love it so much that I have listened to it a dozen or more times

Also, I memorize everything in terms of music theory. Take the beginning of Appassionata Mov. 1, I think "F minor downward arpeggio, start on C [the one that results in you hitting the lowest F], parallel, two octaves apart. Then go up."