How to play escales faster?

[chechig]

Hi everyone. I'm having a bit of a problem learning the Nocturne n 20 in C sharp minor by Chopin.
The problem is the last big escale in measure 59. My teachers advices are not working, I sound really clumsy and uneven. I play slow, loud, changin rithms bla bla bla but still not ok.
Can anybody please give me a hand?? Thank you in advance

[feddera]

I also had trouble with this part the first time I played this piece. With 4 notes to the click with a metronome, how fast can you play the scale now?

[dogperson]

Maybe you have tried all of these suggestions?
-Look at when your thumb is in position for the next time it will be used-- you should be moving the thumb immediately after it is used instead of waiting even a millisecond.  This was a problem for me.
- You will get more control with rounded fingers.
- Break up the fioritura into small segments of 4-5 notes:  play each segment until you can get speed and then join them together.  This is particularly true of descending
-If you haven't seen the Graham Fitch videos on Chopin fioritura, you should watch them.

Edited:  changed ascending to descending

[chechig]

Thank you for your replies.
I dont use the metronome feddera (please, dont kill me, it drives me crazy, literally) so I cant answer that question.
Yes, I practise the thumb aproach.
I love Fitch explanations, I usually watch his videos, but thank you for the suggestion dogperson, very interesting.
It works when I play not too fast, but when I try to play faster, disaster!!

[reiyza]

The way I practiced the 35 note scale. Starting by setting a slow beat for the left hand to practice for it's independence from the right hand. There are 4 notes to 35 notes. So I practice the 4 notes in strict time at around for example, 60mm(1 beat = 1 eight note, is my logic correct?) And practiced that over and over again. Then practiced the scale as explained by graham fitch. 9 notes to 1 beat, etc, until mastered. If you can't handle the speedy scales yet. I recommend going as slow as possible so as to learn the coordination of the 2 hand first.

On a personal experience, Getting the scale to performance level is quite a ladder, especially if you don't have a good teacher to show you how to. And not to promote anyone. But joshwright's pianotv has helped me tremendously to develop that 35 note scale, some worked for me, but I'm not saying they would work for you too. And I have been learning this scale for almost 6 months and I still can't get it cleanly and mess up most of the time. (yes, I know I'm quite new to the piano, sorry guys).

My teachers were also unable to help me with this fast fleeting scale, since both of them are hanon and philippe fanatics, all my scales sound angular and requires too much effort to play(sadly I dropped them in hopes of finding a good teacher), my scales won't even reach mm = 100 - 110(when I hit this mark, all the sound and eveness of my scales goes to h*ll).

Hope this helps OP. Thank you dogperson for the graham fitch video, I learned something new today.

[chechig]

Thank you very much Reyza. Maybe, I'm running too fast. I started to learn this Nocturne in september, I play the rest of the piece quite nice, so maybe it's to early to play the scale right, I need much more time. A game of patience and practice.

[reiyza]

Sent you a PM. Hope that helps.

Yes, time and patience is the key. No need to rush unless you're on a deadline.

After learning the notes of the nocturne after 6 months of learning, I'm starting to wonder if all pieces need a long time of practicing to be performable.

Anyways. Good day mate.

[chechig]

Thank you very much for your help Reyza
By the way, my teacher is really good, is not a matter of him, is me who is clumsy.

[rmbarbosa]

How did I reach the speed in this scale when I played it many years ago?
First I used paralell sets. You may wish to know what they are in Chang`s book you can download free.
The idea is: when you play 2 notes in unison, the speed between these 2 notes is infinite because you spend zero seconds to play from one to another. But, if you have one of the fingers a bit higher than the other, you go from infinite speed to a bit less speed,l OK? So, you go from infinite speed to finite but very fast speed. This is the way your mind "understands". So, you can try this. You choose for example fingers 1 2 3, you play them 10 times in unisson and then 10 times with your 1 finger down, your finger 2 one or 2 milimeters higher and 3 one or 2 mm higher then 2. And you let your 3 fingers fall in the keyboard. This is very easy to do.
After this, you play 1 2 3 4 in same way.
After, the transition 3-1 (E - F)
And the scale is complete, very fast... 

But with this method may be you cant reach the necessary eveness.
To get it, I used to play 10 times 123-4 - 321 - 123-4 ... after, 12345 - 54321, 123456-654321... 2 octaves
Ascending and descending.

Last but not least, the transition between the last notes ascending to the first notes descending. Here, a slightly rotation of your hand helps a lot. When ascending, rotate your hand to the right; descending, to the left. Only in the transition: C sharp- D sharp- E (rotation to the right); E- D sharp - C sharp (rotation to the left).

But it is not the end... before this 35 notes cadenza, you have a very little scale beggining in D sharp. After you are abble to play the great cadenza, you must try to join both scales. Why? Because you need to teach your mind to play them sequencly.

Doing so, you`ll reach the goal in more or less one month.

I must apolodgize my uggly English. I`m not a native...

Best wishes

Rui

[chechig]

Hi rmbarbosa, thank you very much. Very interesting, I'll try and will let you know how it works.
Dont worry, I'm not a native either, so my english is not very good, but I think I understand what you said

[rmbarbosa]

For me it worked very well ... Yes, let me know if it works with you...
Only one more thing: dont be tense or ansious when playing the "cadenza".
If you do as I did, there`s a "magical" moment when you`ll feel your fingers with total freedom, "flying" along the keyboard like birds...

[hovva]

I had the same issues when learning this piece, so here's my advice.
1. You don't have to use a metronome, but you can't only practice at full speed. Slow down and play the notes at a reasonable tempo every once in a while. Practice slowly until the notes can fall under your fingers without you looking. Then worry about the following steps at full tempo. (I heavily advise you to start using a metronome though. It will be your best friend eventually even if you hate it)
2. Take note of any tension in your arm. Every muscle in your arm should be relaxed, tension is what creates the uneven sound. It should feel as if your fingers are flopping and rolling off the keys rather than pressing them.
3. Your hand is the leader, not your elbow. It should feel like your hand is pulling your arm along with your whole upper body. When you lead with the elbow, it triggers muscles in your forearms and muscles, which creates tension along with a whole slurry of other problems.
4. BREATHE. As humans, we tend to lock up our airways in moments of distress as part of the fight or flight response. That may have helped us from being killed by bears, but it's detrimental to playing piano. Before each scale, take a deep breath and exhale as you play it. It should feel like yoga.
In return to your body being relaxed, the piano will play relaxed. I think the biggest step though is having a great understanding of where the notes are. This comes with slow, diligent practice. You may not like it, but the best pieces require sacrifices from the player.

[lostinidlewonder]

Black notes need to feel like springs under your fingers keep a high type position (like black octave position), fingers should not press into keybed while producing the rapid scale. Play in the the scale one octave up and down together with the Lh, it will be quite similar to the two octaves minus a note in rh. You could preserve fingering and play rh as such when doing one octave: 123412312 then descend same notes.

If coordinating Lh with the rh is a conscious effort you need to work on this without slowing the tempo since the rh can play without required lightness at slower tempos. Generally only slow down if the notes are difficult to remember, this situation is very basic and should not require slow practice. Instead note where the togetherness and syncopation occurs between the hands, this can define the chunks you play fast. Slowing the tempo and editing rhythm seems to make the Lh command over the rh blurred and may make your progress plateau. Play it how it should be played, insert controlled pauses between your chunks then remove the pauses.

[chechig]

Thank you for your advices!! The thing is, my previous teacher went mad with me last time I played the piece and asked me not to play it anymore, saying something like: You will never play that scale right because it's virtuoso level... I felt very disappointed and sad, and for that and many other reasons, I've changed the teacher. I still practice the nocturne, but it's a bit stressing for me at the moment.

[lostinidlewonder]

... my previous teacher went mad with me last time I played the piece and asked me not to play it anymore, saying something like: You will never play that scale right because it's virtuoso level... I felt very disappointed and sad, and for that and many other reasons, I've changed the teacher. I still practice the nocturne, but it's a bit stressing for me at the moment.

Don't listen to people who try to tell you what you can't achieve or what difficulties lie in your path that will stop you. Pessimistic people are boring and not very useful to talk with when dealing with challenges. 

[hovva]

Thank you for your advices!! The thing is, my previous teacher went mad with me last time I played the piece and asked me not to play it anymore, saying something like: You will never play that scale right because it's virtuoso level... I felt very disappointed and sad, and for that and many other reasons, I've changed the teacher. I still practice the nocturne, but it's a bit stressing for me at the moment.

It's fast but that doesn't mean its impossible. Its simply a scale played over four notes. Depending on your skill level, it may be a bit challenging, but it won't be impossible.
Can you give any more information about how it feels when you try to play it rather than just how it sounds?

[outin]

Thank you for your advices!! The thing is, my previous teacher went mad with me last time I played the piece and asked me not to play it anymore, saying something like: You will never play that scale right because it's virtuoso level... I felt very disappointed and sad, and for that and many other reasons, I've changed the teacher. I still practice the nocturne, but it's a bit stressing for me at the moment.

That is a sign of your teacher's lack of ability, not yours. While it may have been a bit early depending on your previous skills, playing such thing seems to be entirely possible for many people even when late starters. The teacher should show you how to practice so that you will gradually get it.

But sometimes when one has tried to play a specific piece without adequate skills it may be difficult to get the playing to next level. It might be better to start learning the right technique with another fresh piece with similar elements.

[toughbo]

I second Outin's sentiments on this; I'm an adult starter and am close to getting those bars down soon.

My teacher told me to play the 3 and 4 note groups separately, as effortless and as rapid as possible, then join 2 groups at a time with emphasis on a flexible wrist and a very loose thumb (this proved to be a key element). I've been fiddling with these bars 5 minutes here and there for a few weeks now, with determination and focus, and the scales are starting to sound even at near performance speed.

For slow practice: experiment with moving the fingers as little as possible using the wrist, moving the hand in and out of the black keys and while maintaining an even legato, cartwheeling the fingers with the arm behind each playing finger.
Try to play joined groups in one arm movement, finally aiming to play the complete run in one sweep of the arm, the fingers and wrist moving effortlessly and economically.

Needless to say, this has improved several other aspect in my playing of other pieces and in general.
 

[chechig]

Thank you everyone for your support. I recorded a practice a month ago, I dont feel very confortable posting it here, becasuse you dont' know my backgroud, I'm not a pianist at all, I'm only an adult student that studies very hard, I only have a teacher for the last two years, the 3 previous ones I was on my own,
Edit: I remove the video, thank you for the help to everyone!

[outin]

I thought it was very nice!

[chechig]

I thought it was very nice!

Well, thank you! Very kind of you. that's exactly the opposite of what my teacher said

[chechig]

I've removed the video, thank you very much for your help and support