How do you know that a piece is too difficult for a student?

[mishamalchik]

I was just curious, as through the winter break I'll be selecting a lot of my own repertoire. The issue I'm having is that I have far more technical capability than reading ability. It's a very significant gap. I can play the circle of major scales and arpeggios quite quickly and consistently (minor coming next term). I'm currently about half way through learning Chopin's etude op 10 no 1 at about 80 bpm (more for stretching out my non-dominant hand than for performance), but I struggle to sight read even basic pieces so it is very difficult for me to determine on my own whether something is truly too difficult for me, or if I'm just struggling to read it. How do you know the difference? What are some ways to test whether something is really beyond your level?

PS: My teacher totally busted me for my poor reading ability last week, after he asked me to play from a specific spot in the music and realized that I really struggled to find where that was in my memory bank. I'm still struggling to break away from the "if it's not memorized then I can't play it" mentality. He now has me plunking through the mikrokosmos, so hopefully that issue will be remedied.

[reiyza]

I'm actually curious too.

In my own music journey, I met a wise friend online, who's far advanced than me, and here's the summary/logic of what he told me "never try pieces just to PLAY NOTES FAST, look at the score of the piece, scan through it, Identify technical concepts that are new/hard to you, and assess if you can handle them, If you can't tell which technical difficulties are present in the piece, much better to avoid them for NOW".


So it's like a problem solving, know the problems, find a solution. if you have no idea of the what the problem is. Surely you won't solve it. I recently learned playing a piece repeatedly(literally), and no practice regimens(segmental practicing) implemented, will get you nowhere. FML

I doubt if any of this makes sense to you. Hope this helps in any way?!?

[adodd81802]

I was just curious, as through the winter break I'll be selecting a lot of my own repertoire. The issue I'm having is that I have far more technical capability than reading ability. It's a very significant gap. I can play the circle of major scales and arpeggios quite quickly and consistently (minor coming next term). I'm currently about half way through learning Chopin's etude op 10 no 1 at about 80 bpm (more for stretching out my non-dominant hand than for performance), but I struggle to sight read even basic pieces so it is very difficult for me to determine on my own whether something is truly too difficult for me, or if I'm just struggling to read it. How do you know the difference? What are some ways to test whether something is really beyond your level?

PS: My teacher totally busted me for my poor reading ability last week, after he asked me to play from a specific spot in the music and realized that I really struggled to find where that was in my memory bank. I'm still struggling to break away from the "if it's not memorized then I can't play it" mentality. He now has me plunking through the mikrokosmos, so hopefully that issue will be remedied.

Hey, I think we must have the same mind, as i'm exactly the same, can play at grade 8+, can sight read at grade 2..

Firstly, I, most of the time have already listened several times to a piece before I want to consider learning it. I read through the music whilst listening to it, so I can assess where I see the notes that I hear are going to be difficult. I think this mental preparation also helps me when it comes to learning the piece, I know where in the score to look in more detail at.

At a very basic level, when scanning through music you can apply some logic.
Tempo - Obviously, the faster it is, there is more potential for difficulty
Note Values- No matter what tempo, the smaller the values, we can expect the music will be more difficult, especially where semiquaver double notes or trill double notes are involved.

I have tried to get into the habbit of having the music infront of me at all times, and where possible look at the music rather than the score, because what happens is I learn a bit, memorize it, get lazy with the music, reinforce the memory of how it sounds and plays, but not where it is on the score or what it looks like.

Ultimately I'd love to improve my reading, because it's like a language, you don't forget to read, but if somebody gave you a story to memorize and asked you to recall it 6 months later, half the details will be missing, and the other half incorrect.

Ultimately, forcing yourself to learn that way, and by practicing sight reading is the only way you'll improve.

Here's a fact for you - Every piece you can ever think of, can be played without looking at the keys. (People won't believe me but there is evidence) With that in mind, the more you work towards that goal, (i'm no where near!) you will learn the piano like it's an extension of yourself.

[vaniii]

The problem with difficulty is that it's based on subjectivity from a perspective.

A piece that was difficult can become easy after understanding it; making the entire concept void.  How can somthing be both things at once, it's impossible.

The truth is the piece is the same but we change.

A simple test I use with my students is to ask them to play a piece of music through using a set of pre-learn reading techniques.  If they can read it through with little 'decoding' they are ready for it. If they cannot identify simple components like time, key and starting notes, then they are not ready for it.

Another test is the emotional response; if they look at a piece and start work from a place of fear and intimidation, they are not ready. The point is, if, in a lesson, with my aid, they are terrified of a piece of music, likelihood is at home, without my help, they will practise ineffectively or not at all.

Pride is also a factor here; a student might simply ignore all these red flags and continue anyway. When they fail to deliver, they learn a valuable lesson. Wait until you're ready.

Of course, this requires a student to be thinking about somthing other than impressing people with a 'hard' piece of music.

My advise is to pick somthing up and actually try reading it from the page; that will tell you if you are ready or not.

[keypeg]

A simple test I use with my students is to ask them to play a piece of music through using a set of pre-learn reading techniques.  If they can read it through with little 'decoding' they are ready for it. If they cannot identify simple components like time, key and starting notes, then they are not ready for it.

Another test is the emotional response; if they look at a piece and start work from a place of fear and intimidation, they are not ready. The point is, if, in a lesson, with my aid, they are terrified of a piece of music, likelihood is at home, without my help, they will practise ineffectively or not at all.

Some wise and unique advice here.   

[lostinidlewonder]

The issue I'm having is that I have far more technical capability than reading ability. It's a very significant gap. ..... I struggle to sight read even basic pieces so it is very difficult for me to determine on my own whether something is truly too difficult for me, or if I'm just struggling to read it. How do you know the difference? What are some ways to test whether something is really beyond your level?

This is a common problem and it is because of how most practical music examinations are set up around the world, most of them do not care how long it takes you to learn a piece. You must start reading simple music, don't worry if it is grade 1,2 or whatever, you must be able to predominantly read the music successfully and efficiently. With my sight reading students it is not uncommon to do 100 pieces a month that are around their personal level. Read lots and lots of music you can manage and build from there, this is a simple statement but complicated task as you need to explore repertoire choices thoroughly and pace yourself accordingly.

If something is very difficult to read chances are that your technical capability also hasn't had much experience with it (as you would have read that figure a few times if you had much experience). As a teacher I believe if you cannot efficiently learn something then the piece is too difficult. There is nothing wrong with learning pieces which take you months/years to learn but really if that is all you are facing you are learning your music very inefficiently imho. We need to appreciate that if we learn music that is well within our learning capabilities there should be no reason to master the majority of it in a short space of time. Humbling oneself and sharpening our learning/practice craft with easier works can open new doors to our learning experience especially if you stick with it for many years!

[chechig]

Sorry to interfere, but I dont understand the point. What do you mean, that we should only learn  a new piece if we can only play it straight when readind the score? I'm able to read and play slowly, but never at it's real tempo (unless it's really easy), depending on the pice I need from 1 month to several months to master it. Does that mean that I shoudnt learn that piece?

[lostinidlewonder]

For those who want to focus on improving their practice craft often it means to study easier pieces. I think that there should be no reason to ALWAYS study pieces for months before they are mastered, it is much more enjoyable to increase ones practice craft ability so that they can tackle the majority of works quickly and solve them efficiently. I find this approach to music much more powerful than simply forcing your way through technical monsters which give you all sorts of stumbling points especially if you don't have the practice tools to solve it effectively. This is NOT to say that you should never push yourself to learn works which challenge you technically but don't make it the focus of your piano studies, more often than not I have found that this inefficient.

The Op stressed that his technical capability is much stronger than his reading so a reason why I posted the way I did.

[reiyza]

Sorry to interfere, but I dont understand the point. What do you mean, that we should only learn  a new piece if we can only play it straight when readind the score? I'm able to read and play slowly, but never at it's real tempo (unless it's really esay), depending on the pice I need from 1 month to several months to master it. Does that mean that I shoudnt learn that piece?

Maybe he meant, being able to read, say a difficult score, with steady pulse, no matter how slow, and have no problems with technical concepts(Double Thirds,Trills,Tremolos,Repeated Notes) on the first try.

Or correct me if I'm wrong?

[chechig]

Maybe he meant, being able to read, say a difficult score, with steady pulse, no matter how slow, and have no problems with technical concepts(Double Thirds,Trills,Tremolos,Repeated Notes) on the first try.

Or correct me if I'm wrong?

From my point of view then is too easy, of course you always learn something from a new score no matter the level, but I think is more interesting getting new challenges when learning a piece.

[mishamalchik]

To clarify, I'm beginning to understand the difference between being able to physically play a piece and being able to play it well in an efficient way.

    The first piece I learned to play was Scriabin's prelude opus 11 no 9. It took me approximately 1 month to master it and truly be able to play it exactly as I had wanted to. I've spent over twice as long learning half of the Chopin etude at about half speed. Many of the problems of the etude are not necessarily something my teacher can help me remedy, for the most part it's just a matter of practicing that special point between relaxed and tense necessary to play it with speed, but before you can do that, the notes must be second nature. Or at least that's my perception of the piece.
     
    While working with the etude has been far from pointless (I've really pushed my right hand and it's certainly paid off in other pieces) I feel that rather than choosing one such piece again, it would be far more efficient for me to learn something intermediary.
     
     Having said that, my reading ability is so poor that it's hardly more difficult to read a level 8 piece than a level 4 piece just because either way I find myself reading each note individually at a literal snails pace. I'm working on this but in the mean time, I want to challenge myself but not another opus 10 no 1 challenge because I understand that the piece will not be performance ready for many more months.

[vaniii]

Why not make your goal understanding.

There is a correlation between understanding the music and the sound.

I have had students say to me they can play a piece perfectly, yet, when they play it they have no clue what the music is saying.

Take a lyrical passage with a tender melody; said student ploughed through it with all the notes in the right order, but missed the detail.

My love for Chopin etudes over that by Liszt is simple because though Liszt's are masterful compositions, it is based more on spectacle and pyrotechnics. Liszt made a revision after hearing Chopin's. That should tell you somthing.

I will say it again. The skill used to play 'level 1' music is no different to cannon repertiore, the real difference is the performers understanding of the material.

If you work on your understanding and perception of music it will change how you approach and later play it.

[lostinidlewonder]

Maybe he meant, being able to read, say a difficult score, with steady pulse, no matter how slow, and have no problems with technical concepts(Double Thirds,Trills,Tremolos,Repeated Notes) on the first try.

Or correct me if I'm wrong?

I didn't elaborate on exactly the process but rather a time factor, avoid making your main focus pieces that take months to complete or that give you too many challenges it slows your progress right down. All of what you mention is a good indicator, though be wary of playing too slow as you may get away with movements which have little relationship to the normal tempo.

From my point of view then is too easy, of course you always learn something from a new score no matter the level, but I think is more interesting getting new challenges when learning a piece.

Yes learn new ideas but how much should here be in a new piece you learn? Too many students are so used to studying pieces for months on end for exams that they really don't have a sense for learning pieces at a faster rate (or appreciate the benefits of building your practice craft so the level of pieces you learn efficiently increases). Students of mine who I believe are ready can learn say a Chopin Etude in less than a month and play it at near performance level most of the time, it is because they have many tools which have been sharpened with countless other pieces that they can easily devour larger, more technical demanding pieces as if they are routine. This is hard to appreciate for many who haven't spent years developing their practice methodology and who have simply learned more demanding pieces no matter how long it takes to solve.

To clarify, I'm beginning to understand the difference between being able to physically play a piece and being able to play it well in an efficient way.

This I believe is a very important distinction to make!

[love_that_tune]

I find that there is no one size fits all answer.  I had a student who asked me to bring him something he couldn't play the next week.  He had only been taking for about six months.  He is so very bright that he took to sight reading with lightning speed.  He went on to compose as well. 

Another little boy I am teaching started at age five, since his 9 year old brother started.  At first it was crazy.  He had very little focus.  I still see his cute little legs dangling on the bench while he played with fingers bouncing all over the keys.  On his own he would play the same simple pieces over and over.  Now two years later, he is doing very well.

There are only a certain percentage of students who will be come actual accomplished pianists.  My other students enjoy making music and I enjoy it on their level.