"Thumb over" scales AND chopin etude op.10 no.1

[ilovemusic]

Hi !

This post concerns 2 topics, namely my scale playing and the chopin etude no.1

#### Scales ####

I have been reading quite a few post about the playing scales the "thumb over"  way. I do not know how I actually play scales (I do not try do do anything consciously with my thumb, because that way I can not play any scales ) but what I do to prepare to play scales is the following:

Play repeated notes with all combinations of 2 fingers (12,23) moving up and down the keyboard (this is actually a dreaded Hanon excercise I think). The I play repeated notes with 123, 1234, and 234 on the same key. Then on different keys (CDE, etc).

Then I just play scales ! Each time placing the thumb with wrist rotation. Then I get nice, fast, pearly, clean, staccato scales, with no effort at all, and I do not get tired.  I don't know if that it is the same as "thumb over" playing, but it works nicely.


#### Etude #####

I am also working on chopin's etude no.1. I am aiming at a clear sound, and try to achieve this by playing  the etude staccoto (without pedal when practising).

Going up is no problem at all, and playing the accents really help in getting playing up to speed (which, I think, Chopin put there to learn the technique). This requires the wrist movement described in a post by Robert Henry.

But when going down, my pinky "sticks" on the on the E  before my 4th finger plays  (I consider the first arpeggio). Playing the accents also help in moving the 5th finger (a reflex-movement?), but I get a burning sensation if I play the etude, caused only by going down, in particular by me trying the raise my finger to get a staccato sound.

The movement I make going up resembles ordinary scale playing I discribed above, but somehow I can not do this on the way back. What am I doing wrong ??


I would be currious if someone had some hints/tips/wisdom to share regarding to:


1) My explanation of scale playing
2) What goes wrong in the etude.



Joost.

[zheer]

  Its not thumbs over simple because the thumb does'nt need to go underneath the third or forth finger like other arppegois.
   Watch the video by Ashkenazy on your tube,its amazing such power.

[ilovemusic]

  Its not thumbs over simple because the thumb does'nt need to go underneath the third or forth finger like other arppegois.
   Watch the video by Ashkenazy on your tube,its amazing such power.

Sure, this does not happen if you play a scale in the way I described, but do you end up with the same motion/ feel playing scales ?

Unfortunately - despite the fact that I am convinced looking at how other pianist play is very usefull, looking at Ashkenazy does not learn me how to exactly play the etude... Very impressive video though.

My teacher tells me to study an exaggerated  moving up motion of the 5th finger, to get the notes clearly detached. Otherwise, during a very brief moment, the 4th and 5th finger briefly both press a key. This makes the overall performence blurry/unclear, and gives a key attack that does not produce a clear tone. Paying special attention to lift the 5th finger gives really nice, clear arpeggio's, but is very hard for me to keep up - maybe lack of stanima.

It may well that I need to solve this not by lifting the 5th finger, but by pressing/lowering the 4th finger with an rotation. So then a sort of karate  (Seymour Fink's) lowers the 5th finger on E, and a reverse rotation brings down the 4th, followed by 2 and 1 ?

(quite hard to explain the issue here apprently !)

[violinist]

Ahhh the killer etude 10/1....  it has caused nightmares is some and killed off many.  But where's Paris?  She's become a resident expert on this one.   Search for some previous 10/1/Paris posts

There's a recording of Mei Ting Sun playing it on Utube.com  How does he do that??

[richy321]

Ahhh the killer etude 10/1....  it has caused nightmares is some and killed off many. 

I can vouch for that.  It didn't quite kill me off, but I got a rotator cuff tear from that exact place where you start the descents.  I'm not kidding.  I had reparative surgery 10 days ago and now I won't be able to use my right hand at all for several months.  The problem was that I was trying to prepare the descending rotations too far in advance and only succeeded in building up the tension in my shoulder muscles.  Now I wish I had taken some instruction from a Taubman or Lister-Sink teacher first.   In retrospect, regarding the descending arpeggios, I think the key is to gently stabilize the 5th finger, and let that serve as the fulcrum for the 4th finger strike, but be very careful not to let tension build up at the shoulder.

Rich Y

[chromatickler]

Ahhh the killer etude 10/1....  it has caused nightmares is some and killed off many.  But where's Paris?  She's become a resident expert on this one.

i wouldn't say she's the expert though, her performance didn't do anything for me. i liked zheer's performance better, it's much more passionate.  

[ilovemusic]

...regarding the descending arpeggios, I think the key is to gently stabilize the 5th finger, and let that serve as the fulcrum for the 4th finger strike...
Rich Y

Ehrm.... huh ?

Stabalize the 5th finger?
And what is a fulcrum ?

I focus on giving very loud accents (where they are written), which is easy, because I do it with a flick of the wrist, also when going down. And then I try to lift  it by another rotation. Maybe I just need to ingrain the coordination before it become effortless.

And btw, does Paris already play it up to tempo ?

Joost
 

[zheer]

i wouldn't say she's the expert though, her performance didn't do anything for me. i liked zheer's performance better, it's much more passionate.  

  Thanks chromatickler, though i think Paris is a far better pianist than me.

[demented cow]

re the scales: I am not quite sure how the repeated notes could help scale technique, but it would be an interesting observation if you could prove that it really does. An alternative explanation is that the repeated notes exercise is just some sort of personal psychological conditioning ritual, something that you got so used to doing that you feel unable to play the next thing (in your case: scales) properly without doing the ritual. It's a bit like Glenn Gould's ritual arm washing before playing or like certain gestures tennis players make before receiving a ball.

[ilovemusic]

re the scales: I am not quite sure how the repeated notes could help scale technique, but it would be an interesting observation if you could prove that it really does. An alternative explanation is that the repeated notes exercise is just some sort of personal psychological conditioning ritual, something that you got so used to doing that you feel unable to play the next thing (in your case: scales) properly without doing the ritual. It's a bit like Glenn Gould's ritual arm washing before playing or like certain gestures tennis players make before receiving a ball.

Well..... I have been doing the "ritual" for about one week. Preparing in this way, my fingers are used to 'snap', and then I just move my hand side ways, and voila, a C major scale. Alternatively, of course, I can just play the scale. I this perspective, repeated notes are just a C-major scale on one key.


Any ideas about the finger-lifting issue with the etude ? I just need to get stronger 5th finger lifters, or something else

[paris]

Ahhh the killer etude 10/1....  it has caused nightmares is some and killed off many.  But where's Paris?  She's become a resident expert on this one.   Search for some previous 10/1/Paris posts

haha how funny.randomly clicked this thread (must be some kind of proffesional deformation haha) me- an expert..nah, just i've figured out some things which helped me to play it. actually, this etude isn't that hard. last 2 weeks i had masterclass, and since my friend plays it currently, i tried it also after months of not touching it. i was surprised, it was quite fast, and more surprisingly very clear. 
however, i'm staying away from it for now, currently doing other etudes, along with rachmaninov op.39/1 which is verrrrry similar to first chopin one.

i wouldn't say she's the expert though, her performance didn't do anything for me. i liked zheer's performance better, it's much more passionate. 

i respect your opinion and taste, but everybody heard your version, so it speaks for itself..