etudes op. 10&25

[christiaan]

Okay. Thanx for the advice.

[christiaan]

How difficult is the first movement of Beethoven`s Pathetique sonata in comparrison to Chopin Op. 25 no. 1?

[mcgillcomposer]

How difficult is the first movement of Beethoven`s Pathetique sonata in comparrison to Chopin Op. 25 no. 1?

I assume you are speaking from a strictly technical point of view. In that respect, the Pathétique is much easier (it's one of Beethoven's easier sonatas).

Op. 25 No. 1 is difficult, but technically, only in one way. So, if you crack the technical challenge Chopin has given you, it's clear sailing ahead. The problem is, if you don't play it with the proper gestures you can physically hurt yourself, so make sure you have good guidance if you decided to learn it.

[amelialw]

yes the pathetique is much easier then Op.25 No.1.

Go ahead and learn that one...

[elevateme_returns]

This is my list of Liszt works.

you could have put, this is my Liszt of list works

[silyaznfoo]

I think Pathetique is waaaay underrated in terms of difficulty. Playing at the correct tempo (half note = 152-176 according to Schnabel) is very difficult, and the rhythmic difficulties in the 1st section need to played without rubato. In addition there is a bunch of musical difficulties such as phrasing and articulation needs to be perfect too. I'm having a lot harder time with this piece than I did with the Moonlight 3rd movement.

[amelialw]

I agree that Pathetique is hard, especially the 3rd movement which is the hardest. But Chopin etudes are on a different level from the pathetique, it requires all the skill that is learnt along the way otherwise why would it be a dip piece?

[zheer]

How difficult is the first movement of Beethoven`s Pathetique sonata in comparrison to Chopin Op. 25 no. 1?

   Not so long ago i performed this Etude plus a Beethoven sonata in a piano course, i soon realized that mastering a Beethoven sonata is far more demanding, than wizing through a Chopin Etude. With Beethove the pianist needs a lot of knowledge, with Chopin one needs advanced finger work. Op.25 no.1 is a safer option.

[silyaznfoo]

I agree with what zheer said.

@amelialw

Well Pathetique is a Dip piece, while the etudes are all in the LRSM category. However, I think it's more difficult overall to learn a technically easier Beethoven sonata than a technically harder Chopin etude. Of course there's a bunch of exceptions, but I would disagree with them being at a "different level".

[mcgillcomposer]

I think Pathetique is waaaay underrated in terms of difficulty. Playing at the correct tempo (half note = 152-176 according to Schnabel) is very difficult, and the rhythmic difficulties in the 1st section need to played without rubato. In addition there is a bunch of musical difficulties such as phrasing and articulation needs to be perfect too. I'm having a lot harder time with this piece than I did with Rach prelude 23/5 and the Moonlight 3rd movement.

Of couse it's difficult, but not when you compare it to a lot of the other sonatas.

[amelialw]

oh sorry my mistake. the rcm system is different. Grade 10 RCM is equivlent to Dip ABRSM...that's why I said Pathetique is not a piece. RCM ARCT is equivlent to LRSM and FRSM.

[mcgillcomposer]

I think Pathetique is waaaay underrated in terms of difficulty. Playing at the correct tempo (half note = 152-176 according to Schnabel) is very difficult, and the rhythmic difficulties in the 1st section need to played without rubato.

There are rhythmic difficulties in the first section? It looks pretty straight forward to me. How about the 7th variation of book II of Brahms' Paganini variations...or some of the Scriabin sonatas? THOSE would qualify as rhythmic difficulties in my books.

There is nothing difficult about a tremolo on a bare octave; in fact, there aren't really any major challenges in the left hand whatsoever with the possible exception of mm. 98-102 of the 3rd mvmt. Several very good pianists consider this to be one of the easiest Beethoven sonatas.

And btw...the Chopin étude requires a lot more than advanced finger work (actually, Op. 25 No. 1 doesn't even require any advanced finger work). Anyone who "wizzes" through a Chopin étude is probably playing all of the notes and none of the music.

On another note, please enlighten all of us on the nature of this "knowledge" one requires for Beethoven, but apparently not for Chopin.

[mcgillcomposer]

oh sorry my mistake. the rcm system is different. Grade 10 RCM is equivlent to Dip ABRSM...that's why I said Pathetique is not a piece. RCM ARCT is equivlent to LRSM and FRSM.

You CANNOT rely on systematic grading schemes to determine the difficulty of a piece. For a simple example of this idiocy note that, according to the RCM, Beethoven's Hammerklavier is on the same list as the Moonlight sonata. They aren't even close to being SIMILAR in difficulty level.

[zheer]

On another note, please enlighten all of us on the nature of this "knowledge" one requires for Beethoven, but apparently not for Chopin.

  If am to enlighten you, i would have to first correct you, The Chopin Etude ( not Chopin) require less knowledge, since they are wrriten with one or two specific reason, -A- to advance the pianistic ability, ie octave,scale, arp ect ect, and -B- to further develop the Chopin style of piano playing. However with Beethoven one not only needs the ability to play the notes well, but to truly demonstrate the ability to play what is written, all the detail, that requires knowledge.

[silyaznfoo]

Rhythmic difficulties in the first grave part yes, you need to play the chromatics and other 32nd/64th notes with the same pulse.

[mcgillcomposer]

Rhythmic difficulties in the first grave part yes, you need to play the chromatics and other 32nd/64th notes with the same pulse.

It's a 2/1 ratio...that's dumbfoundedly simple.

[mcgillcomposer]

 If am to enlighten you, i would have to first correct you, The Chopin Etude ( not Chopin) require less knowledge, since they are wrriten with one or two specific reason, -A- to advance the pianistic ability, ie octave,scale, arp ect ect, and -B- to further develop the Chopin style of piano playing. However with Beethoven one not only needs the ability to play the notes well, but to truly demonstrate the ability to play what is written, all the detail, that requires knowledge.

Ya, I bet you had a discussion with Chopin himself concerning the nature of the études. If you knew anything about music you would know that there is a lot more to the études than meets the untrained eye.

All music requires attention to detail, whether it be specific harmonies, phrasing, how to pace a climax, how to bring out the leading contrapuntal line, highlighting specific dialogues between parts, etc. You're clearly talking out of your ass, but what more can one expect from an online forum?

[silyaznfoo]

Wow some people sure have no life and get really pissed at an online forum 

Anyways I think you're talking about the Allegro not grave part. Look at measure 4 and 10. And btw dumbfoundedly isn't a word.

[mcgillcomposer]

Wow some people sure have no life and get really pissed at an online forum 

Anyways I think you're talking about the Allegro not grave part. Look at measure 4 and 10. And btw dumbfoundedly isn't a word.

I'm not pissed, I just choose not to buy into bullshit. And I am not talking about the Allegro part...I do know what you meant by the opening of Beethoven's Pathétique...surprise surprise.

And btw...it is a word. It's the adverbial form of dumbfounded; check the Oxford English Dictionary.

[mcgillcomposer]

Look at measure 4 and 10.

OK, what's the problem? Measure 4 is very straight forward, and measure 10 is not intended to be played exactly as written; Beethoven is obviously writing out a small-scale accelerando.

[silyaznfoo]

Lol then you don't know what a 2-1 ratio is... I guess I have a different dictionary from you too... I used dictionary.com. Well measure 4 there's playing 9 notes in the time of 2 32nd notes. and I'm not sure about the last part but Schnabel clearly marked for it to be in tempo, and so did my teacher. They may be wrong though.

[mcgillcomposer]

...you need to play the chromatics and other 32nd/64th notes with the same pulse.

32/64

2 64ths = 1 32nd

BTW, language is dynamic, meaning things change. The word dumbfoundedly has found its way into literature, and therefore, is obviously in use. As such, it has been initiated into the language. How do you think the Oxford dictionary came about in the first place? Several people sifted through novels and made lists of words...DUMBFOUNDEDLY simple, but a lot of work nonetheless.

[silyaznfoo]

Ok fine you win. Chopin etudes are much harder than Beethoven sonatas.

[mcgillcomposer]

Lol then you don't know what a 2-1 ratio is... I guess I have a different dictionary from you too... I used dictionary.com. Well measure 4 there's playing 9 notes in the time of 2 32nd notes. and I'm not sure about the last part but Schnabel clearly marked for it to be in tempo, and so did my teacher. They may be wrong though.

It can be played in tempo, but I guarantee you that his septuplet is not EXACTLY right. The important thing is the overall effect. How many people in the audience are going to be sitting there with a metronome?

Yes, it goes from a 32nd to a 64th (1/2), and then turns into the equivalent of triplet 64ths. It's a pretty simple breakdown...also a written-in accelerando BTW.

[silyaznfoo]

Btw I don't think the 3rd movement is more difficult than the 1st. Basically I think the poster should go ahead and learn it, you can improve by learning it despite the fact that many people think it is easy.

[mcgillcomposer]

Ok fine you win. Chopin etudes are much harder than Beethoven sonatas.

Did you already forget the question in hand? Is Beethoven's Pathétique sonata (first movement only) more difficult than Chopin's Op. 25 No. 1? This is a far reach from comparing the études and sonatas IN GENERAL.

[mcgillcomposer]

Btw I don't think the 3rd movement is more difficult than the 1st. Basically I think the poster should go ahead and learn it, you can improve by learning it despite the fact that many people think it is easy.

You're correct re: the 3rd mvmt. not being more difficult than the 1st. They both have different challenges, that's all.

I don't think anyone thinks it's "easy", per se. Remember how I qualified my position earlier by saying, IN COMPARISON to many other Beethoven sonatas, it is easy.

[silyaznfoo]

Ok fine the 1st movement is easier than the choptude.

[amelialw]

You CANNOT rely on systematic grading schemes to determine the difficulty of a piece. For a simple example of this idiocy note that, according to the RCM, Beethoven's Hammerklavier is on the same list as the Moonlight sonata. They aren't even close to being SIMILAR in difficulty level.

Do you have any idea that ARCT is equivlent to dipABRSM,LRSM and FRSM all added together, that's why both Moonlight and Hammerklavier appear in the same repertoire list. That's why they reccomend that you study your ARCT performer's for 2 years...so that can can cover the easy-difficult range of repertoire.
That's what my teacher is doing with me right now. So far for ARCT i've already studied 12 different pieces instead of the usual 6, still gonna add in about 3 more pieces at least before I go for my exam.

The ones who learn pieces like Moonlight want to go for their exam after a short while, they just want to get the exam done with. One of my friend's friends failed her ARCT 3 times...

I agree that the Moonlight and Hammerklavier are on different levels, the Hammerklavier is much tougher then the Moonlight.

[mcgillcomposer]

You CANNOT rely on systematic grading schemes to determine the difficulty of a piece. For a simple example of this idiocy note that, according to the RCM, Beethoven's Hammerklavier is on the same list as the Moonlight sonata. They aren't even close to being SIMILAR in difficulty level.

Do you have any idea that ARCT is equivlent to dipABRSM,LRSM and FRSM all added together, that's why both Moonlight and Hammerklavier appear in the same repertoire list. That's why they reccomend that you study your ARCT performer's for 2 years...so that can can cover the easy-difficult range of repertoire.

I did not know that; thanks for pointing it out.

[amelialw]

you're welcome 

[zheer]

Wow some people sure have no life and get really pissed at an online forum 

.

   True.

[zheer]

pace a climax, how to bring out the leading contrapuntal line, highlighting specific dialogues between parts, etc. You're clearly talking out of your ass, but what more can one expect from an online forum?

  Does you father known that your mother is shaging the next door neighbours dog.(BTTW are you American )

[mcgillcomposer]

  Does you father known that your mother is shaging the next door neighbours dog.(BTTW are you American )

I can't make sense of your poor English skills, but I'm going to guess you meant to say the following:

Does your father know that your mother is shagging the next-door neighbour's dog? (BTW, are you American?)

In any case, no, he does not know, but I'm sure she'll get around to telling him.

And no, I am not American, I am Canadian.

[silyaznfoo]

Wow, some people can't stand to lose an argument.
















































Go ahead and bash me and get your 400th post 

[mcgillcomposer]

*BASH

btw...I think you forgot the 'l' at the end of your screen name.