scriabin's Fantasy op.28

[sjskb]

Hi,
   
    i just got registered as a member. Feel free to leave your comments on my recording of this piece. Critcisms are most welcome.

Thank you. 

[failed]

I didn't know this piece but i think you have a great feeling for scriabin..
Sounds great!!

[rachfan]

sjskb,

Thanks so much for posting this extraordinary performance!  And it's a joy to hear a less-heard composition of Scriabin.  I cannot possibly say enough good things about your playing.  First, you exhibit a wonderful feel for Scriabin's idiom, and play it very stylishly, developing the various and shifting moods in the piece.  More than that, you play it throughout in "the grand manner" with a commanding sweep.  Although this piece is virtuosic and of very high complexity, you always distinguish foreground from background.  The lush, ultra-romantic melodic line soars, regardless of surrounding, thick-textured fillagree so favored by Scriabin, even when there is accompaniment within the right hand.  Phrasing is always artistic in shaping the long line throughout.  And despite the frenetic demands of execution, you so often create moments of beautiful and tasteful nuances.  Your pedal is employed with a fine expertise to emphasize clarity of line.  There is no doubt in my mind that you listen carefully to your own playing in the moment.  In short, I'm impressed by your musicianship and musicality overall!  A masterful performance.  Bravo!!

Can you please tell us the piano used for this recording?  Thanks.

David 

[wzkit]

sjskb,

Thanks so much for posting this extraordinary performance!  And it's a joy to hear a less-heard composition of Scriabin.  I cannot possibly say enough good things about your playing.  First, you exhibit a wonderful feel for Scriabin's idiom, and play it very stylishly, developing the various and shifting moods in the piece.  More than that, you play it throughout in "the grand manner" with a commanding sweep.  Although this piece is virtuosic and of very high complexity, you always distinguish foreground from background.  The lush, ultra-romantic melodic line soars, regardless of surrounding, thick-textured fillagree so favored by Scriabin, even when there is accompaniment within the right hand.  Phrasing is always artistic in shaping the long line throughout.  And despite the frenetic demands of execution, you so often create moments of beautiful and tasteful nuances.  Your pedal is employed with a fine expertise to emphasize clarity of line.  There is no doubt in my mind that you listen carefully to your own playing in the moment.  In short, I'm impressed by your musicianship and musicality overall!  Bravo!!

Can you please tell us the piano used for this recording?  Thanks.

David 

Fantastic. Agree with everything said above. I too am curious to know the piano used in this recording. Have you heard Sofronitzky's recording of this piece?

[sjskb]

Hi,

    Thanks to rachfan for the huge compliment, which i find extremely flattering. 
I admit this piece is a killer, for its many layers and pounding octaves!!

i think it's hard to find pianos like baldwins here in Singapore... the recording was done on a Yamaha C3!!

hope to get more comments from the others too!

thanks again.

[wzkit]

Hi,

    Thanks to rachfan for the huge compliment, which i find extremely flattering. 
I admit this piece is a killer, for its many layers and pounding octaves!!

i think it's hard to find pianos like baldwins here in Singapore... the recording was done on a Yamaha C3!!

hope to get more comments from the others too!

thanks again.

Nice to see someone else from Singapore here! How old was your C3 when you recorded on it? It sounds pretty good, if slightly on the metallic side.

[sjskb]

Nice to see someone else from Singapore here! How old was your C3 when you recorded on it? It sounds pretty good, if slightly on the metallic side.

you from singapore too?? great...  how old are you by the way?

i wished i had a C3. actually did the recording in a studio... i think that piano is about 25 years old?

[wzkit]

you from singapore too?? great...  how old are you by the way?

i wished i had a C3. actually did the recording in a studio... i think that piano is about 25 years old?

I'm 30 this year. Just play for fun, nothing too serious

[troglodyte]

I love this piece but have not played it. Thanks for posting, I enjoyed your recording very much.

[sjskb]

I love this piece but have not played it. Thanks for posting, I enjoyed your recording very much.

thanks, troglodyte! this was the first scriabin piece i heard, and i loved it instantly!! why don't you go and learn it then? it's tough, no joke about it. But worth it . 

good luck!

[pianistimo]

everything that rachfan said!  but, (and i am nowhere near where u are) there are some notes that u automatically 'favor' and always play loudly.  they are mostly in the rh and in some parts i come to automatically expect the sound i will get.  perhaps this is not necessarily true for the entire piece - but certain portions i hear 'right handed pianist.'  forgive me if this is not the case.  what i would like to hear is even more melding of the left, right and middle.  especially the middle.  this fantasy is all over the keyboard - but i am mostly hearing one octave above middle C.  i want to fantasize about the entire keyboard.  and correct me if this is bad hearing on my part.  maybe also the evenness of the left hand - but that is a really picky thing for me to say - as this piece is way above my capabilities right now.

i guess if u have a sort of melody going on - u have to allow it a degree of loudness over the 'accompaniment'  - but sometimes the lh is too many notches under the rh and it gives a feeling of overpowering madness to the rh.  i'd like to hear a slightly more 'refined' closer proximity of dynamics and a sort of melding of the hands as u do very very well at certain points.

i'm curious to hear what some longtime teachers would say - because i haven't worked any scriabin and really don't know this piece.  i'm just speaking off the top of my head as to what i 'hear' in this piece as a first time listener to it.  i like to hear EVERY harmony of scriabin - even if it means really slowing down some parts and really softening others so that nothing is covered up by speed or dynamics.  the whole entire beginning, to me, has the capabilities of being less immediately 'dramatic' and more 'soft' as though it was clouds leading u somewhere into a mist and even the parts that seem like a 'climax' should still be kept down, imo - - as lesser climaxes that have absolute degrees (to a few other main climaxes).

[pianistimo]

u sound like berezovsky.  absolute power and manliness.  no prob with that.  just want a slight bit more of 'wandering' feeling and not so MUCH absoluteness.  maybe some 'wondering' and 'thinking' and 'mulling' and 'pondering.'

guess, i dont' explain myself very well.  i like a man to sound like he knows where he's going -but in this particular piece - it seems like a long dissertation if everything is important.  but, if u make it like a story ur telling at the beginning, then it turns into 'bliss' and then 'storms' and then whatever - but the constant turning is almost like having weather patterns that are changing and ur following from one type to another.  not every pattern should be rh strong lh weak - but u don't do that always.  some places are primal and some are extremely beautiful - maybe u could find some other adjectives and write them in in all these places and then try to make different feelings come out?  (ok i'm done.  waiting for experienced people like koji to talk).

[pianistimo]

is it my imagination or is the bass flatter and the treble sharper.  it makes what is inbetween sound more important - but ineffective in the long run - the whole piano needs a good tuning, imo.  also - that particular piano seems like it is like a bass drum in the bass.  it is really loose and has a lot of wa wa.  can u find a tighter piano?  maybe one size smaller or like the S4?  it is actually 2 inches bigger - but the bass strings are different.  there's refinements in the specs of the copper winding on the bass strings that give a purer pitch and better sound.  at least that's what the advertisements say. 

this is assuming u've got money to blow.

[rachfan]

I think sjskb did a fine job coping with a less than optimal instrument.  I'm not a Yamaha fan, to be honest.  I've tried them (larger C series models) several times in dealer showrooms wondering if I'll be won over--but I never am.  I've always played Baldwin and Steinway--my bias.  But as sjskb points out, there are not as many choices in Singapore--I would guess mostly Yamaha and Kawai pianos.  This 25 year-old Yamaha C3 (6'1") needs work, I agree, but sjskb adapted to it well and brought out its remaining potential I think. 

The other problem is that the Yamaha bass often has a "woody" quality, the tenor is a bit tinny, and the treble can sound bright and brittle.  So it can almost be like playing three pianos with a single keyboard.  Finally, Yamaha has a rather short tone decay.    This has enormous implications for playing legato lines.  I give sjskb a lot of credit for overcoming that in the lyrical parts of this Fantasy especially.  He created a wonderful illusion of cantabile despite that handicap.

The other point I would make is this, and I do not have the score (I ordered it though so I can learn the piece).  This piece, from just listening to it, is layered like a sandwich, with melody, left hand harmonies, and mid- and high-range filagree in various figurations, such as repeating chords, octaves, arpeggios, etc.  In balancing the hands in this difficult situation, the melodic line in the foreground must prevail, and sjskb ensures that it does, no matter what.  The melodic or harmonic functions of the other layers dictate their respective dynamics, which will change in different situations within the score.  I did notice some left hand scalar passages, sometimes slowly progressing scales.  Scales in music are of great significance to the listener and must be made sufficiently apparent (but not exaggerated).  sjskb might have given some of these a bit more attention, especially those down in the woody bass to bring them out more. 

I still think that sjskb did a fantastic job with the piece overall.  And, I'm sure all of us would agree that even with a lifetime association with any piece, we never "finish" it.  It is always an evolving work in progress.  Horowitz never played a piece the same way twice.  There is no doubt that should sjskb study it again in the future, there will always be new insights and discoveries in the score.  That's one of the great pleasures of  piano.       

[pianistimo]

dear rachfan,  ur right about everything!  i mean, i probably wouldn't be ready to touch that piece for a couple more years (if not 10) and he made the yamaha sound much better than it could.  and, the decay did sound less obvious than it could have.  sometimes i wonder if i should post about pieces that i haven't played and that are way beyond me.  i think the temptation comes in when we like what we hear - but want just a tiny bit more of something.  it's like being given a fine dessert and asking for more cream on top.

[rachfan]

Hi Pianistimo,

Don't be bashful about commenting on pieces you haven't played.  I agree that if you have actually studied a piece, you'll be very familiar with its particular and peculiar challenges.  But even without having played a piece, you can still make some judgments about musicality, apparent technical issues of execution, and also make comparisons concerning performance practices.   I admit I don't have the score yet for this Fantasy, so have not studied it either, although I intend to very soon.  But from years of study, I can observe many points about this performance and others, and you probably can too. 

[sjskb]

Dear rachfan and Pianistimo,

     Really appreciate all your fantastic comments. I agree that the tuning of the piano leaves much to be desired... but the studio engineer claims that the tuner will come just before i do each recording session. so...  hmm.....

    as for the comments on the imbalance between the two hands. Not trying to defend myself, but i have a strong feeling it's to do with the acoustics. I did my recording in dry air, meaning no reverb. This recording is only for sampling. My recording engineer will only add in the reverb to the track together with all my other pieces when ready.... hopefully the left hand will come out more with that.....

    anyway, thanks to pianistimo for your suggestion: to write down adjectives on the score to help me "imagine"... will try that out....

[pianistimo]

dear sjskb,

i'm wondering, as people get into the higher eschelons of piano performance, if they truly need to bring along their own tuner to get the tunings they want.  trusting someone else's might be that u are putting up with a cheap tuning (since they sometimes only tune the middle section of the piano - to save money).  especially for a recording!  but, i haven't all the money in the world either.  it's just that i think this money is really well spent.  especially if u find an excellent tuner that is willing to help u out.

you sound like u've got more expertise about recording than i do, too, and i hope that u'll get all the sound that u want from the lh and places where u want to bring out particular harmonies.  this is really a beautiful piece and it did make me think i was eating a fine dessert. it's not often we get to critique such a difficult piece and  played without bashfulness. 

perhaps u might add to our understanding of the piece the reason why it sounds like a blend of 'climaxes' of many different styles - all put into one piece.  is this the idea that scriabin was using to create this fantasy (so many different ones) and is this fighting the tradition one or two climax idea?  it loses my attention if there is more than two - but, then, again ... i might be listening with a traditional ear.   i definately heard a different 'tone' in the 'breaking the clouds' section at the beginning.  i thought it was extremely beautiful.  but it wouldn't follow the ABAB pattern of stormy, cloud clearing, stormy... so how do u create a difference of feeling in the other sections?  i personally feel that it is ignoring the absolute rh melody lh harmony idea in favor of just picking a line and bringing it out in some sections.  for instance, making one section be about hearing the tenor line - or the bass a little bit more (still allowing freedom in the rh to 'soar' - but allowing the ear to be tricked).   just random thoughts in my head.

[sjskb]

you sound like u've got more expertise about recording than i do, too, and i hope that u'll get all the sound that u want from the lh and places where u want to bring out particular harmonies.  this is really a beautiful piece and it did make me think i was eating a fine dessert. it's not often we get to critique such a difficult piece and  played without bashfulness. 

perhaps u might add to our understanding of the piece the reason why it sounds like a blend of 'climaxes' of many different styles - all put into one piece.  is this the idea that scriabin was using to create this fantasy (so many different ones) and is this fighting the tradition one or two climax idea?  it loses my attention if there is more than two - but, then, again ... i might be listening with a traditional ear.   i definately heard a different 'tone' in the 'breaking the clouds' section at the beginning.  i thought it was extremely beautiful.  but it wouldn't follow the ABAB pattern of stormy, cloud clearing, stormy... so how do u create a difference of feeling in the other sections?  i personally feel that it is ignoring the absolute rh melody lh harmony idea in favor of just picking a line and bringing it out in some sections.  for instance, making one section be about hearing the tenor line - or the bass a little bit more (still allowing freedom in the rh to 'soar' - but allowing the ear to be tricked).   just random thoughts in my head.

Wow, that's a really intellectual post... 
i shall try my best to answer it....
although it's called a fantasy, the individual sections (which you have labelled A and B) of this piece are quite clearcut (Scriabin makes it very clear by assigning different metronome markings at the start of each section), unlike other fantasies with really random and unpredictable mashes of ideas.

If i were to analyse it, it would be ABCA'ABCA'BA, with A being the mysterious opening, B being the sweet lyrical "cloud clearing" in D major, C being the ferocious storm. But then comes the complicated part.

Because the next quiet section uses the same motivic idea as the opening, but modified so much in harmony and voice that it sounds like a new idea, i label it A'. This is then followed by an embellished version of A, with underlying ripples. The sweet melody (B) returns, but this time as a loud passionate octave passage in B major. After the expected C section, we again move back to A', this time in a very reflective mood. The piece stays in the soft register as B returns once more, again embellished by semiquaver LH. Finally, a triumphant A section returns to conclude the piece.

although technically speaking there are three sections, but each time section A returns in a totally different character, though utilizing the same thematic material. Same for B. Only section C stays constant for both times. To complicate things further,  sections A and C share the same rhythmic motifs at times.....

Within each section, Scriabin always have some sort of building up. To me, I would regard it as one long ocean wave rather than "many mini climaxes" as you have described. Sometimes, the waves will build up to an extremely high point, sometimes just a small ripple. But the important thing is each individual section does not stay flat or stagnant. That's the reason this piece does not sound boring. Rather, the listener is always being carried along by the wave to its highs and lows.

(right, i am tired) 

hope this helps!!! please do listen to the piece again, and see if my "analysis" fits the bill....

thanks....

ps: nah, i am not at all experienced in recording! this is my first attempt at cutting an album.

[pianistimo]

cool.  thanks for explaining all that.  it makes me want to write in these things if i buy a score.  (unless it's downloadable on pf).  interesting how it is more like an ocean wave.  yes...i can see that.  so scriabin was really not trying to imitate a form per se - but more of an 'effect' on the hearer of being pulled out to sea, washed up, pulled out again - it's very tiring to a listener the first time - but then the second and third time - when u know what to expect - u can tell urself u need to concentrate.  it seems that it requires a lot of concentration to listen to well.

u know how a person puts all their listening emotion into 'the moment.'  well, this has a lot of intense 'moments' and so that's what i mean by tiring.  so many beautiful places and sights - but sometimes u need a little break to be able to concentrate on the next 'section.'  maybe the fourth time i listen - i'll hear the naturalness and yet distinct newness of this type of form.  it reminds me of mutations or something.  as u said - similar rhythms and keys but very different ways of repeating a section.

 

[rachfan]

Stylistically, I believe that for this Fantasy, an earlier opus of Scriabin, the composer took as his inspiration the innovative harmonies and bravura of Liszt, the overwhelming "storm and stress" of Wagner, and combined those elements with his own hyper-romantic themes--quite a beautiful and powerful wave! 

[sjskb]

Stylistically, I believe that for this Fantasy, an earlier opus of Scriabin, the composer took as his inspiration the innovative harmonies and bravura of Liszt, the overwhelming "storm and stress" of Wagner, and combined those elements with his own hyper-romantic themes--quite a beautiful and powerful wave! 

very true... thanks for the contribution! it's a gem of a piece, and i discovered it really by chance....a school teacher just lent me a scriabin CD of piano works, and out of all the tracks, it's the one i instantly love!

[wzkit]

very true... thanks for the contribution! it's a gem of a piece, and i discovered it really by chance....a school teacher just lent me a scriabin CD of piano works, and out of all the tracks, it's the one i instantly love!

Who was the pianist in that recording? I would strongly recommend you to listen to Sofronitzky's recordings...hard to find, but well worth the listen! He was Scriabin's son-in-law btw, widely regarded as one of the best Scriabin interpreters ever. Richter called him a God, and Horowitz said he played good Scriabin too.

Btw, did you record this in John Herbert's studio at Commonwealth? I remember the Yamaha C3 there was pretty harsh sounding. How old are you? Who is your teacher?

[sjskb]

yup...that was done in john's studio.... smart!! i'm going to be 26 soon.....by the way, i'm having my first recital in sept...hope u could come at support!!

[wzkit]

yup...that was done in john's studio.... smart!! i'm going to be 26 soon.....by the way, i'm having my first recital in sept...hope u could come at support!!

Sure thing. What's your programme? Do you do music professionally?

[pianowolfi]

is it my imagination or is the bass flatter and the treble sharper. 

Am I wrong or isn't that a common concert tuning?

I love the piece and I love the performance!

[rachfan]

I believe concert pitch is A442 versus standard pitch of A440.  I've never heard of making the bass flater than the treble though.  But on my own piano I always have the top half dozen notes of the highest treble register intentionally tuned sharp.  It adds brilliance to a high run or arpeggio.  A tuner once told me that others have requested that as well. 

[sjskb]

Wow! so my post is revived after a long period being dormant 

rachfan, i din know that concert pitch is A442. Maybe just for piano? I'm sure violins in the orchestra tune to A440. But most piano solo recordings (i mean the professional CD kinds) do tend to be slightly sharper.

Anyway, let's just say that the yamaha that i recorded on wasn't really in tune that day!
i have since did different editions to the scriabin. Sounds better this time. (hopeful look)

will post if possible.

[smxr]

Excellente!

[rachfan]

Hi sjskb,

On orchestra tuning, I would not bet the bank that the orchestra tunes to A440.  What I've always observed is that  the concert master, most often the first chair violinist (but it can also be the oboeist), gives the tuning tone for the orchestra.  The piano, however, has already been pre-tuned according to a tuning fork, which is more reliable than the concert master's or oboeist's ear.  At that point it is fervently hoped by all present that the piano and orchestra will be somewhat in tune with one another at the start of the concerto.  The idea of "concert pitch" is that because it is higher than A440, the sound will be more sharp, and, therefore, more exciting to the listener.  For several years I had my home piano tuned to concert pitch.  But after awhile, I found it to be too shrill or edgy.  So I had it lowered at the next tuning to A440 and have kept it there ever since. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Very nice to listen to. Take care when in louder sections, the tone is sometimes forced, sounds too harsh to me. Like the piano cannot get louder, and some climaxes just feel like they plataeu instead of continually increase to infinite ecstasy. Overall really well done! Thumbs up!

[gruffalo]

all i can say is... wow + everything rachfan has mentioned. You mentioned you are 26, could you tell us what you do, where you study, studied, if it is your full time career etc.

Gruff

[zheer]

  Great piano playing,sadly i cant comment on your interpretation since its the first time hearing this piece. What did stand out is the dynamic range ,very good,

[sjskb]

all i can say is... wow + everything rachfan has mentioned. You mentioned you are 26, could you tell us what you do, where you study, studied, if it is your full time career etc.

Gruff

thanks for your compliments....
i study at university of birmingham, UK, so it's not a pure piano degree, but a music one....
I did plenty of performing modules there though...it's my strong item.

Well, now I am an A level music teacher in singapore..i hope to one day succeed as a concert pianist....but it's harder to do so in my country then in USA. hmm. That's why i am having my debut recital in 2 weeks time!! this fantasy is one of the pieces to be performed.

wish me luck!

[sjskb]

Very nice to listen to. Take care when in louder sections, the tone is sometimes forced, sounds too harsh to me. Like the piano cannot get louder, and some climaxes just feel like they plataeu instead of continually increase to infinite ecstasy. Overall really well done! Thumbs up!

Hi, lostinidlewonder

thanks for your tips. I shall bear that in mind..

cheers....

[sjskb]

There...the so called "improved" version of the fantasy.....

Thanks for all your support....

recital in 7 days..