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Topic: I believe in love at first sight  (Read 8336 times)

Offline m1469

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I believe in love at first sight
on: May 24, 2012, 03:40:50 PM
It might not necessarily be the kind of love where you end up marrying that individual and having a lifelong commitment in that way to them, but I definitely believe in there being very deep and true connections very, very quickly and sometimes instantly.  My observation is that there can be something about two souls meeting where you just meet at a certain point in your life that there is some particular aspect of each other that you already and instantly understand.  Maybe because you have grown in particular ways before meeting them, similarly to picking up a piece of music at a particular time in your life and it just being a right fit from the get-go (when perhaps it wouldn't have been right years or even months before that, needing to have learned particular lessons prior to picking it up).  It's like you just meet at exactly some point, almost as though it was meant to be.  

Not that you know everything about that person (and part of the fun is in getting to know them), but that you instantly glimpse something about that person which may even be hidden from many or most other people.  I've had experiences like that and even after quite awhile of knowing them, there is something about the way I see them which is still traceable back to the very first time we met.  A person may grow and develop (hopefully, anyway!), but there is something so beautiful inside of them that you saw from the very first, and you just grow to see them more and more clearly.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline ahinton

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #1 on: May 24, 2012, 03:56:01 PM
It might not necessarily be the kind of love where you end up marrying that individual and having a lifelong commitment in that way to them, but I definitely believe in there being very deep and true connections very, very quickly and sometimes instantly.  My observation is that there can be something about two souls meeting where you just meet at a certain point in your life that there is some particular aspect of each other that you already and instantly understand.  Maybe because you have grown in particular ways before meeting them, similarly to picking up a piece of music at a particular time in your life and it just being a right fit from the get-go (when perhaps it wouldn't have been right years or even months before that, needing to have learned particular lessons prior to picking it up).  It's like you just meet at exactly some point, almost as though it was meant to be.  

Not that you know everything about that person (and part of the fun is in getting to know them), but that you instantly glimpse something about that person which may even be hidden from many or most other people.  I've had experiences like that and even after quite awhile of knowing them, there is something about the way I see them which is still traceable back to the very first time we met.  A person may grow and develop (hopefully, anyway!), but there is something so beautiful inside of them that you saw from the very first, and you just grow to see them more and more clearly (or sometimes you just grow apart).
I see that you've ported something from another thread in order to create a new one.

I think that there's a lot of sense in what you write here. I am also convinced that this is possible and can and indeed does occur, though how commonly it occurs and how well it is understood as a phenomenon by those who have not experienced it or have yet to experience it I cannot say with any certainty.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #2 on: May 24, 2012, 04:20:15 PM
I see that you've ported something from another thread in order to create a new one.

I think that there's a lot of sense in what you write here. I am also convinced that this is possible and can and indeed does occur, though how commonly it occurs and how well it is understood as a phenomenon by those who have not experienced it or have yet to experience it I cannot say with any certainty.

Best,

Alistair

Yeah, and just by glimpsing each other's souls, there is an element of light in the whole world that wasn't there before, and a brand new perspective, just because you have learned they exist.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #3 on: May 24, 2012, 08:05:30 PM
I believe in love at first sight with banjos, but not girls.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #4 on: May 24, 2012, 08:15:25 PM
I believe in love at first sight with banjos, but not girls.
That's your prerogative, of course - just as it may be m1469's not necessarily to believe in love at first sight with girls either - but don't you believe in love at first sight with pianos?

Best (albeit somewhat despairingly),

Alistair

Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline ted

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #5 on: May 24, 2012, 08:59:13 PM
It exists all right, nothing surer, and I consider its effects destructive, and far more likely to produce harm than good. I repeatedly fell prey to it from the age of about five through to thirty, at which time I made the conscious decision to get rid of it. We seem to be hard wired to do it to a certain extent, although the propensity varies with individuals. I didn't see the light until I read a wonderful book, "Lovestyles", by John Lee,  about the various types of love. Once I found better ways of loving my health and happiness took off and remained stable. I even wrote a piano piece, "Farewell to Eros", to celebrate the occasion.
"Mistakes are the portals of discovery." - James Joyce

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #6 on: May 24, 2012, 10:05:42 PM
Everybody's different, I guess, but I am not talking about an average, regularly occurring thing.  I am talking about a kind of connection which significantly/profoundly affects one's perspective on life and on themselves, upon even one/a first meeting with that individual and where something real is shared.  An interaction doesn't even have to look profound from the outside, it's something inward.  For me, that is quite unique and can be very positive, and -by its very nature- quite important.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline ted

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #7 on: May 24, 2012, 10:27:10 PM
That's right, I'm sure we're talking about the same thing. Maybe your sort of brain is strong enough to enjoy it without flying off the handle, whereas people like me are better off without it.
"Mistakes are the portals of discovery." - James Joyce

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #8 on: May 24, 2012, 10:34:24 PM
That's right, I'm sure we're talking about the same thing.

Who knows?  But, I do think that just like with anything in life, it's important to learn from it and I suppose we all learn in different ways.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 07:33:15 PM
There are two possibilities:

1. physical attraction
2. behavioral attraction

or a combination of the above.

Physical attraction is obviously what it means.  However, it's behavioral attraction that is difficult to discern because it is embedded within the person being gawked at.  It's not simply what a person looks like but how he behaves that either lends credibility to his physical traits or takes away from it.  In other words, if it looks like a duck, it better quack like one.

One of the things we can identify very quickly is behavior.  How he walks, his body language, gestures, head nods... these are all behavioral traits.  All of these traits signal social dominance, a highly attractive trait for females.  For males, these traits signal sexual desirability.

I don't believe in love at first sight.  I believe a better way to describe it is infatuation based on a desirable stereotype.

Offline pytheamateur

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
Um, I can't really say as I have yet to find my soul mate.  I would say though that in relation to those women for whom I had the most intense of feelings, the attraction had not been instant.  My experience does not of course disprove what you say, as these have all been fruitless passions.
Beethoven - Sonata in C sharp minor, Op 27 No 12
Chopin - Fantasie Impromptu, Nocturn in C sharp minor, Op post
Brahms - Op 118, Nos 2 & 3

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #11 on: September 15, 2012, 12:36:01 AM
Valentina Lisitsa

That's all I can say...

Just... 

Valentina Lisitsa  ::) ::) ::)
Live large, die large.  Leave a giant coffin.

Offline chopin2015

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #12 on: September 15, 2012, 12:50:57 AM
Valentina Lisitsa

That's all I can say...

Just... 

Valentina Lisitsa  ::) ::) ::)

I agree. It is perfectly healthy for you!  I think she is great!   

I have not decided I am gay nor have I had any of such experiences. I am also not at all interested in these things. But it just does not and probably will not happen to me with anyone. I do love Chopin, but lately I have been falling for Beethoven. It is just healthier loving a "dead" man in some cases. Mostly just the lonely talk but not for long. I better go get to practice now.

Good luck, m1469!
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #13 on: September 16, 2012, 01:35:36 AM
There is a certain type of connection which cannot be faked, in my opinion, and it is one which you feel in your own guts and core, and both people feel it and also feel it within the other.  It's not just some outer behavior or just an infatuation from afar by just one person for another.  It's a certain kind of intensity, similarly to that star fire-ball that I love so much and as if it were sitting right inside your stomach!  It can be completely life altering and mind boggling and you don't even necessarily have to be in the same room!
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline chopin2015

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #14 on: September 16, 2012, 01:39:46 AM
and it is one which you feel in your own guts and score,

yes, that! :P
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #15 on: September 16, 2012, 02:59:38 AM
yes, that! :P

But, I thought you said this:

I agree. It is perfectly healthy for you!  I think she is great!   

I have not decided I am gay nor have I had any of such experiences. I am also not at all interested in these things. But it just does not and probably will not happen to me with anyone.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline chopin2015

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #16 on: September 16, 2012, 03:09:44 AM
I changed your spelling from "core" to "score" lol
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #17 on: September 16, 2012, 03:19:28 AM
Well, I noticed that.  I figured there was something to it, or that it was an accident.  But that was your whole point in quoting?  :P
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline chopin2015

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #18 on: September 16, 2012, 02:55:27 PM
Yes, unfortunately I have only one thing on my mind. On the same note, I got in touch with my really really long time crush! He was very pleasant and I have had such a hard time getting him off my mind! :) He lives on the other side of town. I used to see him all the time but I moved away. It has been heartbreaking.
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #19 on: September 16, 2012, 03:03:57 PM
Yes, unfortunately I have only one thing on my mind. On the same note, I got in touch with my really really long time crush! He was very pleasant and I have had such a hard time getting him off my mind! :) He lives on the other side of town. I used to see him all the time but I moved away. It has been heartbreaking.

Ah, well, good luck with that  :D.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #20 on: September 16, 2012, 03:35:04 PM
You know, a connection is one thing and this can be amazing, great, enlivening, and life-modifying.  Love is maybe another, not so much excluding that connection, but "truth dwells -still as true- amid the darkest hour"  ;D.  That is something special :).

I'm not going to lie, we're living on one tiny little rock!  8)
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #21 on: September 16, 2012, 05:09:38 PM
I don't believe in any human love, because we are all very limited, and it doesn't do good to anybody if we "expect" anything like "love" from them, in any way.
We really shouldn't.  Let alone "unconditional love" which is a hypothetical construct, made up by the human intellect.
I believe in divine love though. Agape. Yes I do believe in this, because it's just much more real to me. Which might be called idealism.
So yes, I do believe in love, divine love, Agape, as a force which has the potential to make the world go round.

Offline philfribbit

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #22 on: September 17, 2012, 12:29:15 AM
I believe that love at first sight is something that occurs in some people's lives.
I am committed to waiting for the man that God has for me. He knows what I want in a man, and if I wait, then that means I won't make a mistake.
I know I'm bold in saying what I believe, but it's true.
Please don't take any offence, it's just my opinion, and I highly respect yours. :)
"No other acoustic instrument can match the piano's expressive range, and no electric  instrument can match its mystery."
-KENNETH MILLER

Offline marygreen

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #23 on: September 18, 2012, 01:40:29 PM
I also believe in this kind of love, but it didn't happen in such a way in my life... Inspite of it I still remember the day and the feelings when I met my husband, though it was 10 years ago... And I didn't even like him at first... And what about first love, then it definitely was from the first sight, but things just didn't get serious and to cut a long story short just didn't work out for us two...  Anyway it happens sometimes, so I say for sure that I believe in love from the first sight!

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #24 on: September 18, 2012, 04:02:04 PM
I don't believe in any human love, because we are all very limited, and it doesn't do good to anybody if we "expect" anything like "love" from them, in any way.
We really shouldn't.  Let alone "unconditional love" which is a hypothetical construct, made up by the human intellect.
I believe in divine love though. Agape. Yes I do believe in this, because it's just much more real to me. Which might be called idealism.
So yes, I do believe in love, divine love, Agape, as a force which has the potential to make the world go round.

I don't fully disagree with this, and there are parts that I fully agree with, but I do believe in a general way that we can expect man to be actually capable of expressing love, real love, in both an accepting as well as giving way.  But, yes, I agree it is wise to consider one's own expectations in the smaller scale (and to consider where those might be coming from) - as we are always evolving and growing and changing.  Sometimes it becomes apparent that two people have different goals in life and I believe it's important to acknowledge that for what it is and not try to rob that person of their own individuality, just because of these differences.  At the same time, sometimes adjustments and sacrifices are made, and perhaps in long term interactions we experience love as a form of balancing between taking steps alone and then taking them together.  

I also believe in this kind of love, but it didn't happen in such a way in my life... Inspite of it I still remember the day and the feelings when I met my husband, though it was 10 years ago... And I didn't even like him at first... And what about first love, then it definitely was from the first sight, but things just didn't get serious and to cut a long story short just didn't work out for us two...  Anyway it happens sometimes, so I say for sure that I believe in love from the first sight!

I am currently discovering new views of love, and right now this includes more facets than I've ever known it before.  I appreciate these facets as expressed through many forms of life, through many people, and in many ways.  And I believe there is much, much more.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #25 on: September 18, 2012, 04:08:25 PM
Lust at first sight... Yes.

Love at first sight? Maybe if you see your newly born baby, otherwise it is just way too superficial.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
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Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #26 on: September 18, 2012, 04:45:23 PM
It might not necessarily be the kind of love where you end up marrying that individual and having a lifelong commitment in that way to them, but I definitely believe in there being very deep and true connections very, very quickly and sometimes instantly.  My observation is that there can be something about two souls meeting where you just meet at a certain point in your life that there is some particular aspect of each other that you already and instantly understand.  Maybe because you have grown in particular ways before meeting them, similarly to picking up a piece of music at a particular time in your life and it just being a right fit from the get-go (when perhaps it wouldn't have been right years or even months before that, needing to have learned particular lessons prior to picking it up).  It's like you just meet at exactly some point, almost as though it was meant to be.  

Not that you know everything about that person (and part of the fun is in getting to know them), but that you instantly glimpse something about that person which may even be hidden from many or most other people.  I've had experiences like that and even after quite awhile of knowing them, there is something about the way I see them which is still traceable back to the very first time we met.  A person may grow and develop (hopefully, anyway!), but there is something so beautiful inside of them that you saw from the very first, and you just grow to see them more and more clearly.

What's so surprising about the fact that some people are instantly attracted to each other? Sure, you can put it in poetic language or in mundane language but, either way, it's not exactly much of a shock. That's just how evolution works.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #27 on: September 18, 2012, 04:48:51 PM
It exists all right, nothing surer, and I consider its effects destructive, and far more likely to produce harm than good. I repeatedly fell prey to it from the age of about five through to thirty, at which time I made the conscious decision to get rid of it. We seem to be hard wired to do it to a certain extent, although the propensity varies with individuals. I didn't see the light until I read a wonderful book, "Lovestyles", by John Lee,  about the various types of love. Once I found better ways of loving my health and happiness took off and remained stable. I even wrote a piano piece, "Farewell to Eros", to celebrate the occasion.


The trick is to date various women at the same time. That way, the childlike infatuations and risks of crushing disappointment rapidly start to disappear. You don't have to be one of those pathetic types who sits around all day long wondering why someone didn't text yet, but can just get on with a healthy life. Even if one suddenly disappears, it doesn't seem like such a big deal anymore. If you do end up with something really special, you're much more likely to know it's authentic- rather than a case of grabbing onto something because it seems like the only thing available to you. Attachment is often grounded much more in circumstance than in absolutes. Give yourself options and it soon turns out that just because someone attractive who you get on with is currently interested, it doesn't mean that you won't find the same (or better) again.

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #28 on: September 18, 2012, 04:50:22 PM
What's so surprising about the fact that some people are instantly attracted to each other? Sure, you can put it in poetic language or in mundane language but, either way, it's not exactly much of a shock. That's just how evolution works.

Not so much as you put it, of course (but we are fundamentally talking about different things - it's not the same math).  What is a shock is for it to alter your life and perception of it in a fundamental and lasting way.  The first by its nature has no shock involved, the second is by its nature a shock to the entire system, and therefore a shock to the intellect (which placed concepts in a non-shocking box, before).
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #29 on: September 18, 2012, 05:07:10 PM
Not so much as you put it, of course.  What is a shock is for it to alter your life and perception of it in a fundamental and lasting way.  The first by its nature has no shock involved, the second is by its nature a shock to the entire system, and therefore a shock to the intellect (which placed the concept in a non-shocking box before).

True- but just because that sensation arises once, it doesn't mean that it won't happen readily again or even that it hasn't actually happened as strongly before. Who can really put themselves directly into the experience of a former emotional state? Is the childish "infatuation" of a kid necessarily any less real in the moment that it exists, than what would be considered mature love? You can't make proper comparisons in hindsight. It's like trying to make a list of your ten best orgasms. Sure, we all remember some good ones- but could you put them in a precise order? With time, memories get grossly distorted and there's no way to put yourself back in the moment (which is also how we falsely attribute more recent discoveries to the beliefs of how we "knew" a person from the start- the mind plays major tricks when you look back on things). Tim Minchin's song makes the point well:

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #30 on: September 18, 2012, 05:12:12 PM
True- but just because that sensation arises once, it doesn't mean that it won't happen readily again or even that it hasn't actually happened as strongly before. Who can really put themselves directly into the experience of a former emotional state? Is the childish "infatuation" of a kid necessarily any less real in the moment that it exists, than what would be considered mature love? You can't make proper comparisons in hindsight. It's like trying to make a list of your ten best orgasms. Sure, we all remember some good ones- but could you put them in a precise order? With time, memories get grossly distorted and there's no way to put yourself back in the moment. Tim Minchin's song makes the point well:



And, you can't tell me who I am, what I feel, how I should or shouldn't think.  Nor can I be somehow lolled into anything just because you typed the word orgasm.  :P
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #31 on: September 18, 2012, 05:12:31 PM


The trick is to date various women at the same time.
See m1469 that is what you have forgotten to do hahaha lol.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.pianovision.com

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #32 on: September 18, 2012, 05:18:18 PM
I am currently discovering new views of love, and right now this includes more facets than I've ever known it before.  I appreciate these facets as expressed through many forms of life, through many people, and in many ways.  And I believe there is much, much more.

This, to me right now, is the most important, and does not exclude individuals within my life.  I can't stress enough my gratitude for individuals who have been an example of love in my life, and that is not just one person.  I value these experiences very much, and as I say above, I believe there is much, much more.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #33 on: September 18, 2012, 05:23:41 PM
And, you can't tell me who I am, what I feel, how I should or shouldn't think.  Nor can I be somehow lolled into anything just because you typed the word orgasm.  :P

I'm not telling you how to think. I'm just pointing out that the romanticised ideal of profound love is based on success having already occurred. After years of success, a person looks back and remembers how amazing it was from the start (likely in an overly romanticised way that has been coloured by countless events that took place in the intervening years). However, if it fails half-way down the line, they will view the sentiments of earlier on in a completely different light. Throw yourself into something too soon, and you only risk either having to look back years down the line and thinking "whoops", I got that all wrong or perhaps having even forgotten what had seemed so profound, altogether (assuming that you don't spend the rest of your life sobbing about the one that got away, rather then moving on). It's all very easy to imagine that we "knew" a person from the look in their eye, but it's far from unusual for people to think that one minute and then decide they misjudged a person the next.

You're welcome to adopt whatever beliefs you wish- but I'm just saying that pragmatic consideration involves the realisation both that all success stories are being viewed in hindsight (or they wouldn't yet be success stories) and realisation that a wealth of failures didn't necessarily feel any different in the earliest stages, from those that succeeded. Nobody who rushes to a Las Vegas church to have Elvis wed them to someone they met less than a month ago is thinking- let's just see how it goes. How many of those last? Time is the only valid test- of what seems like profundity in the moment.

Offline m1469

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #34 on: September 18, 2012, 05:50:33 PM
I'm not telling you how to think. I'm just pointing out that the romanticised ideal of profound love is based on success having already occurred. After years of success, a person looks back and remembers how amazing it was from the start (likely in an overly romanticised way that has been coloured by countless events that took place in the intervening years). However, if it fails half-way down the line, they will view the sentiments of earlier on in a completely different light. Throw yourself into something too soon, and you only risk either having to look back years down the line and thinking "whoops", I got that all wrong or perhaps having even forgotten what had seemed so profound, altogether (assuming that you don't spend the rest of your life sobbing about the one that got away, rather then moving on). It's all very easy to imagine that we "knew" a person from the look in their eye, but it's far from unusual for people to think that one minute and then decide they misjudged a person the next.

You're welcome to adopt whatever beliefs you wish- but I'm just saying that pragmatic consideration involves the realisation both that all success stories are being viewed in hindsight (or they wouldn't yet be success stories) and realisation that a wealth of failures didn't necessarily feel any different in the earliest stages, from those that succeeded. Nobody who rushes to a Las Vegas church to have Elvis wed them to someone they met less than a month ago is thinking- let's just see how it goes. How many of those last? Time is the only valid test- of what seems like profundity in the moment.

I do not expect from you, to understand something which cannot be measured, quantified, nor valued with regular measuring devices.  But, I can appreciate where you're at, and value you, nonetheless :).

Now, unfortunately, my Opera Scenes have not, as yet, learned themselves and rehearsal is tomorrow with limited hours today.  I am actually a disappointment to myself lately and will need to make some changes regarding these things.  It's been an uncharacteristic month and a half, but I suppose much has been getting sorted through on a very fundamental level, and that will hopefully prove to be of value in my endeavors.  On the plus side, I have found it very helpful to listen to my opera scenes as I am drawing ... it's been helpful to both my learning of the scenes as well as to my drawing (and quite helpful for me personally), and this is a very perfect thing for me (though not the only needed learning tactic).

Ciao for now.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #35 on: September 18, 2012, 05:57:18 PM
I do not expect from you, to understand something which cannot be measured, quantified, nor valued with regular measuring devices.  But, I can appreciate where you're at, and value you, nonetheless :).

It's not about measuring anything though. That's my point. The solitary test of any value is not how things feel in early moment but whether that lasts- which is what we all come to ultimately judge things on. In the short term, nobody can honestly say whether a 12 year old kid's infatuation with his teacher is any less profoundly heartfelt compared to a couple who have decided that they are in love after just a week. The passing of time and the events that occur in the longer term is what determines the difference. Only that determines whether something was what might be deemed "profound" or merely a fleeting fad.

Offline iansinclair

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #36 on: September 18, 2012, 09:17:31 PM
Yes, it can happen and occasionaly does.  One does, though, need to distinguish rather carefully between a near-instantaneous oh wow golly gee reaction -- which may be behavioural or sexual -- and a much deeper, more complete reaction -- which is what I think m1469 may be getting at.

For a very very deep look at the subject, read the book "I and Thou" ("Ich und Du" in German) by Martin Buber.  It -- and the phenomenon in question here -- are among the foundations of existentialist philosophy and theology.

And absolutely HAVE to be experienced to be understood at anything other than a very superficial level.  (been there...)

Might also have a go at Erich Fromm's "Art of Loving" (not what it sounds like -- heavy, man, heavy)

I might add that sex/sexual orientation does not enter into it.
Ian

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #37 on: September 19, 2012, 01:32:49 AM
And absolutely HAVE to be experienced to be understood at anything other than a very superficial level.  (been there...)

Such an argument simply does not work, sorry- unless grounded in either blind optimism or the ability to look back upon success in hindsight. If the above argument stood up to even an iota of scrutiny, the rate of success in marriages between people who have decided that they are "in love" within mere weeks of meeting and jumped into a quick marriage (based on the belief that their relationship is "different" from prior ones) would be high. It is not high. It is very low.

This illustrates the unquestionable fact that sentiments that exist in the short-term are hopelessly unreliable- no matter how intense or real they may seem in the moment. Human attraction is not based on what creates long term happiness or life-time relationships. It is based on what furthered evolution- which is why short-term sentiments are often inescapably powerful yet equally short lived. Pragmatically, we cannot even separate the first stages of what might potentially be viewed as love at first sight from the childish "infatuation" (that most adults will raise an eyebrow at the assumed superficiality of) between a teen and his first crush. There is nothing to objectively separate between the reality or validity of such feelings- INCLUDING how real they might seem to the person experiencing them at the time. Everyone thinks they "just know" something extra special in the short-term, regardless of how it later pans out. Only the ability to look back distinguishes something special from a silly crush.

Sorry if that doesn't sound very romantic, but unless love has already succeeded, anyone who "just knows" does so out of either blind optimism, or the self-important belief that (unlike most humans) they have some kind of special right to an unusually profound love that is rarely to be witnessed and which few other humans get to have. Evolution has succeeded in its current form because attraction readily creates delusion. Until something has stood the test of time, the belief that you "just know" it's something special is of no credibility whatsoever. Once something is long failed, hindsight makes us think we knew something wasn't right from the start. If something has long been successul hindsight makes us think we knew it was right from the start. In reality, the emotional state and belief at the start is not a remotely reliable indicator- until we have the opportunity to look back on it with hindsight (and the according alterations that our brains distort memories with).  

Offline chopin2015

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #38 on: September 19, 2012, 01:38:31 AM
What happens to love when it is just you, you are on your own and the other person doesn't care if you are dead or alive?  How does love work?
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline j_menz

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #39 on: September 19, 2012, 01:42:20 AM
In reality, the emotional state and belief at the start is not a remotely reliable indicator- until we have the opportunity to look back on it with hindsight.  

So, you believe in love at first hindsight.  ;D
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #40 on: September 19, 2012, 01:56:16 AM
What happens to love when it is just you, you are on your own and the other person doesn't care if you are dead or alive?  How does love work?

That's why you should date lots of people. It's easy to be in that situation simply because you put everything into one option. If that fails, you are left with nothing. The pain of lost "love" is often nothing more than the pain of being left with nothing. Just as you'd be more sorry to lose one bread roll more if you had nothing else to keep you alive (rather than if you lost one of a massive pack of bread rolls), losing your only option is necessarily more crushing. It's not necessary about "love" at all- but the sense of being left with nothing. If you've also been dating a few other people who you get on well with, losing that very same person may not be a massive deal at all. Call me cold and analytical, but the reality is that feelings are often relative to situation and circumstance- rather than simplistic and idealised absolutes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory

PS. In the pickup community they call this "oneitis"- where people get superficially attached to someone out of fear of not being able to find anyone else, rather than out of that person being truly special. The feelings do not seem any less real as "love"- but are simply born out of fear and lack of confidence. All too often, those who constantly mope after lost "love" are just stuck in this mindset.

Offline chopin2015

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #41 on: September 19, 2012, 02:00:52 AM
Yeah, you mean...it is possible to like and get along with different people, not just the one? I am afraid I am changing the subject from love at first sight to...love only happens once.
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline ed palamar

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #42 on: September 19, 2012, 02:07:50 AM
Yeah, and just by glimpsing each other's souls,

On the topic of glimpsing into soul :

https://www.pcmsconcerts.org/blog/artist-interview-peter-orth
Regular updates to the Countdown to the Day of the Lord by the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven (Matthew 24:30) - https://risen-from-the-dead.forumotion.com/

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #43 on: September 19, 2012, 02:09:33 AM
Yeah, you mean...it is possible to like and get along with different people, not just the one? I am afraid I am changing the subject from love at first sight to...love only happens once.

Maybe. But I've certainly had the experience of thinking that I'd lost something better than I could expect to get again. Next thing you know, you're looking back on it as a mere passing infatuation- after having realised that there are plenty of other options available to you that are equally appealing or even more attractive. Suddenly, what felt like "love" at the time is almost forgotten altogether. As I say, it's all relative to circumstance. Emotions are not absolutes. Nobody should ever believe that they've "used up" their magic one.

Offline chopin2015

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #44 on: September 19, 2012, 02:12:56 AM
Hey, I mean...sometimes they are...
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline iansinclair

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #45 on: September 19, 2012, 06:16:45 PM
Such an argument simply does not work, sorry- unless grounded in either blind optimism or the ability to look back upon success in hindsight. If the above argument stood up to even an iota of scrutiny, the rate of success in marriages between people who have decided that they are "in love" within mere weeks of meeting and jumped into a quick marriage (based on the belief that their relationship is "different" from prior ones) would be high. It is not high. It is very low.

This illustrates the unquestionable fact that sentiments that exist in the short-term are hopelessly unreliable- no matter how intense or real they may seem in the moment. Human attraction is not based on what creates long term happiness or life-time relationships. It is based on what furthered evolution- which is why short-term sentiments are often inescapably powerful yet equally short lived. Pragmatically, we cannot even separate the first stages of what might potentially be viewed as love at first sight from the childish "infatuation" (that most adults will raise an eyebrow at the assumed superficiality of) between a teen and his first crush. There is nothing to objectively separate between the reality or validity of such feelings- INCLUDING how real they might seem to the person experiencing them at the time. Everyone thinks they "just know" something extra special in the short-term, regardless of how it later pans out. Only the ability to look back distinguishes something special from a silly crush.

Sorry if that doesn't sound very romantic, but unless love has already succeeded, anyone who "just knows" does so out of either blind optimism, or the self-important belief that (unlike most humans) they have some kind of special right to an unusually profound love that is rarely to be witnessed and which few other humans get to have. Evolution has succeeded in its current form because attraction readily creates delusion. Until something has stood the test of time, the belief that you "just know" it's something special is of no credibility whatsoever. Once something is long failed, hindsight makes us think we knew something wasn't right from the start. If something has long been successul hindsight makes us think we knew it was right from the start. In reality, the emotional state and belief at the start is not a remotely reliable indicator- until we have the opportunity to look back on it with hindsight (and the according alterations that our brains distort memories with).  

I knew that someone would come up with this counter argument to my remarks, and I'm not surprised at all -- nor dismayed.  However, the variety of relationship of which I was speaking has nothing to do with marriage; nothing to do with dating -- and everything to do with a complete and absolutely inevitably momentary sharing and melding of souls.  Philosophically, at least within the transcendental existentialist philosophical framework, it is a logical consequence.  Practically, it is so rare as to be only just this side of finding a unicorn in your back yard.  I had studied the concept, academically, as part of my philosophical and theological studies, and must admit I reacted in a sort an "oh that's a nice concept; never happen" way.  Until it did.
Ian

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #46 on: September 19, 2012, 07:31:58 PM
I knew that someone would come up with this counter argument to my remarks, and I'm not surprised at all -- nor dismayed.  However, the variety of relationship of which I was speaking has nothing to do with marriage; nothing to do with dating -- and everything to do with a complete and absolutely inevitably momentary sharing and melding of souls.  Philosophically, at least within the transcendental existentialist philosophical framework, it is a logical consequence.  Practically, it is so rare as to be only just this side of finding a unicorn in your back yard.  I had studied the concept, academically, as part of my philosophical and theological studies, and must admit I reacted in a sort an "oh that's a nice concept; never happen" way.  Until it did.

I certainly don't begrudge anyone who should come across a time where they would be shocked to feel something that stands out to them. I just think it's reasonable to put it alongside the experiences of others who had likely felt exactly the same in the moment- in order to get it in perspective. Relativity is everything. Perhaps some people experience a big moment out of contrast to prior experiences- which makes it seem outstandingly special, when the reality is that similar sentiments could actually happen again? However, there's literally no way to compare and to know whether it truly is something remarkably special- unless the sentiments go on to last years and years. Just because something is spectacularly different from a person's prior experience, it does not mean it would necessarily stand out from even the repeated experiences of others, which had ultimately proved to be fleeting. Everything is situational.

This probably reads in an extremely pessimistic and cynical way, but realising the relative nature of everything (rather than getting caught up in the idealised belief that you've met the solitary "one" for you and that nobody else could ever compare, ie. if you lose them then you may have to spend your entire life moping about disappointment of everything that follows) can actually be a lot better for the happiness.

Offline outin

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #47 on: September 19, 2012, 07:38:29 PM
Yeah, you mean...it is possible to like and get along with different people, not just the one?

Of course it is!

I personally cannot see how it is even possible to be together with then same one person for years, even decades. But I guess for some people it is possible...I'd go grazy...

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #48 on: September 21, 2012, 05:16:13 AM
I don't believe in any human love, because we are all very limited, and it doesn't do good to anybody if we "expect" anything like "love" from them, in any way.
We really shouldn't.  Let alone "unconditional love" which is a hypothetical construct, made up by the human intellect.
I believe in divine love though. Agape. Yes I do believe in this, because it's just much more real to me. Which might be called idealism.
So yes, I do believe in love, divine love, Agape, as a force which has the potential to make the world go round.

I don't fully disagree with this, and there are parts that I fully agree with, but I do believe in a general way that we can expect man to be actually capable of expressing love, real love, in both an accepting as well as giving way.  But, yes, I agree it is wise to consider one's own expectations in the smaller scale (and to consider where those might be coming from) - as we are always evolving and growing and changing.  Sometimes it becomes apparent that two people have different goals in life and I believe it's important to acknowledge that for what it is and not try to rob that person of their own individuality, just because of these differences.  At the same time, sometimes adjustments and sacrifices are made, and perhaps in long term interactions we experience love as a form of balancing between taking steps alone and then taking them together.  

I am currently discovering new views of love, and right now this includes more facets than I've ever known it before.  I appreciate these facets as expressed through many forms of life, through many people, and in many ways.  And I believe there is much, much more.

Yes of course you are right :)

I am just extremely negative when it comes to that subject, perhaps because I never found the right match and I keep meeting the wrong people, and that makes me frustrated about it all.

Like for instance last April. There was one of my friends on a social network site who had a crush on me for a while, she's even a pianist and musician, and does her own stuff, like me, and we share more common interests. We never met in rl, but we talked on the phone for a week. And after a while she was not only "in love at first 'sight'" but also "convinced" that I must be the love of her life.
But then she started to say things like "oh we have time to practice for the rest of our live, now we should care for relationships, because that's all that will remain. And you think you need to realize yourself in the material world by taking part in a competition, that's materialistic" And more and worse stuff like that. Needless to say, that not only I was gone as fast as the wind, but that she had spoiled it with me for once and forever.
I am not willing to be a wheel in prearranged life concepts that others make up for me, to fill up the huge black holes they have in their lives while they behave like those huge black holes were a sign of enlightenment.

Offline goldentone

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Re: I believe in love at first sight
Reply #49 on: September 21, 2012, 08:06:44 AM
Count me in. :)  For the magic is in the soul.
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
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