Fingering Question & Practicing issues

[dnephi]

A piece that I really really want to learn is the Liszt Mazeppa, and I've been working on it for a while now, and I still don't have the main theme vesrions 1 and 2 solid at full speed. 

Now for fingering-do you adhere to Liszt's suggestion as we are told by Cortot, or do we facilitate it as Berezovsky does?  The facilitation seems awkward but would probably be easier after I practice it. 

And finally, what practice techniques do you think would be most efficacious for this kind of figuration?

Thanks for your help!  This is still my favorite musical work after about 8000 hearings and messing with it for months .

[leucippus]

I'm a raw beginner, but I learned very early on that fingerings are a highly personal thing.  I would use whatever feels most natural for me.  It might be one of the two you've suggested, or I might actually devise my own.  I'm not familiar with the piece you are talking about.  But it doesn't matter what piece it is, I approach them all the same way from the viewpoint of fingering.  In other words, I always use whatever feels most natural for me, even if I have to make it up myself.  Everyone's hands are different, everyone's minds are different.  Very few people ever do the same task in precisely the same way.

[lostinidlewonder]

what bars, what fingering do you use?

[dnephi]

what bars, what fingering do you use?

For all the passages in chromatic thirds, I don't have the music with me, but basically the initial mainn theme and the first transformation of it (with bass anticipation and is in triplets instead of 16ths), I use 24  24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24, but with Berrezovsky's choice, it seems that it might be more accurate, although in my practicing, I merely came to the conclusion that I needed to play more slowly for the time being.

[pianistimo]

not sure if i should suggest this, as i'm not familiar with the passage - but would 24, 15, 24, 15 ... work?

[dnephi]

Here is the Busoni Edition.  I have the Henle and it says 24 24, because it's Urtext and Liszt chose it.
The Cortot edition says to use 24 24 because it facilitates a sort of glissandoed martellato effect and Grove Music Dictionary says that 24 24 makes the hand a two-pronged fork for traveling the keyboard at high velocity, and I am somewhat afraid of my accuracy at 24 24, although for, say, a studio recording (I flatter myself? lol), I would use 24 24. 

What would you practice to make these more accurate, or would you sacrifice speed and the martellato and "glissé" effect for more accuracy?  Berezovsky seems to achieve all three of these in his facilitation, using the fingering shown in the 1902 Schirmer Students Edition, even though he "cheats." 

[pianistimo]

not having played the piece - my first reaction is to play the lh 42, 31 ...

and the rh 24, 15, 24, 15...

i have not ever practiced thirds with a glissando effect.  how does berezovsky 'cheat?'  does he revert to 24, 24, at the end or something? 

[dnephi]

He plays it with 53 24 or something in the left hand, modifying it ovre the different keyboard locations, IE, he facilitates the fingering by deviating from Liszt's instructions.

The "glissé" is like repeated notes, so a way to think about it is repeated notes, except on the repeated note you hvae to move up a half step in that time to make it clean.

[pianistimo]

i've never tried that with a chromatic type of third passage.  but, it's probably possible!  obviously, if cortot wrote that fingering - he must have thought it possible and quite possibly the fastest one.  after day and a half of testing it - he probably could move his hand the slight amounts needed (precisely) to accomplish the feat.  for us, it might be harder to move incrementally perfectly.

[ramseytheii]

A piece that I really really want to learn is the Liszt Mazeppa, and I've been working on it for a while now, and I still don't have the main theme vesrions 1 and 2 solid at full speed. 

Now for fingering-do you adhere to Liszt's suggestion as we are told by Cortot, or do we facilitate it as Berezovsky does?  The facilitation seems awkward but would probably be easier after I practice it. 

And finally, what practice techniques do you think would be most efficacious for this kind of figuration?

Thanks for your help!  This is still my favorite musical work after about 8000 hearings and messing with it for months .

Your questions about fingering were already answered, I think the most important answers being that fingering has to feel natural, but still achieve the musical result.  It doesn't matter what fingering you use if it sounds like porridge.

For this kind of music which depends so much on the athletic, I would practice "in the Zone," haha I just thought of that, what I mean to say is I would practice in "stages."  The difficulty here is just one thing, the complicated series of movements, the hands crossing each other at a very fast rate, and making big leaps.  The notes are supremely easy to learn, and the difference between melody and accompaniment could not be more brutally lined out for you.  Therefore practice in stages, that is, you play the first chord (on the second page, where the melody begins); then you play the first chord, and the next (left hand g# and e), then add the third, and so on and so forth.  If you ever mess up in any of these stages, just practice it until you get it right.  The trick is to visualize what you are going to play before you play it, and when you break it up into small digestable portions, you can visualize it without problems.

I used to believe with all my heart, to endless frustration, that there was some alchemy of motions that would render all things easy, and technical thoughts superfluous.  To play chromatic scales in minor thirds, I thought, no, I knew, there was just a universal combination of movements that, once learned, never had to be studied again.  How stupid I was!  Sometimes there is no magick movement that will solve all the problems.  Sometimes, one just has to practice, and practice, and practice.  This Mazeppa is such a piece.  It simply has to be practiced all the time, and that is the only way to succeed at it.  I actually think it is worth it - the exhiliration you can feel from a succesful performance of this is just unparalleled.  But be prepared to shove a lot of other things out the door, because this is just making insane demands.

Walter Ramsey