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Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition? (Read 6938 times)

Offline abstractentity

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Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition?
« on: July 12, 2005, 03:02:31 AM »
Does anyone else have this edition published by G. Schirmer?  How is it compared to the Kirkpatrick edition? 

Offline bernhard

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Re: Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition?
«Reply #1 on: July 12, 2005, 10:53:05 AM »
Hashimoto is pretty much identical to Kirkpatrick’s as far as the edition (minimal) of the scores are concerned (This has been the case since Kirkpatrick published the facsimiles of all the original manuscripts in the 1950’s). The main differences are the extensive performance notes that Hashimoto provides in the preface  - always interesting to read (Kirkpatirck also provide extensive – and superb – introductory notes on his edition of the 60 sonatas) and the fact that Kirkpatrick only edited 60 sonatas, while Hashimoto edited 100.

As you can see neither are complete editions (there are 555 sonatas).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition?
«Reply #2 on: July 12, 2005, 11:01:02 AM »
By the way, if you are interested in other editions, here are a few:

I. Complete editions:

Alessandro Longo – “Opere complete per clavicembalo” - Ricordi/Kalmus – First published in 1906, this was the first more or less complete collection of the sonatas amongst the existing editions then. Consisting of ten volumes and a supplement it has all in all 546 sonatas, edited from the Venice, Vienna and Cambridge manuscripts, plus the original edition of the “Essercizi.”  Here is Kirkpatrick’s evaluation, writing in 1953:

“Unfortunately, Longo’s numbering, and his arrangement of the sonatas in suites, completely disrupts the chronological and stylistic sequence of Scarlatti’s keyboard work. Numerous inaccuracies and copious insertion of editorial markings render a more satisfactory complete edition of the Scarlatti sonatas urgently desirable”.

“ The dynamic indications of Longo’s edition, while effective in terms of pianism and by no means unmusical in terms of nineteenth-century chiaroscuro dynamics, have little in common with Scarlatti’s own practice, and frequently end up by pulling Scarlatti’s musical structure ruthlessly apart. […] Longo’s markings often demonstrate a profoundly sensitive musical instinct, but one which is so distorted by 19th century conventions that most of its value is completely cancelled out by the violence his markings do to Scarlatti’s real style.”

One consideration in favour of Longo, however, is that it is available on CD (together with the Haydn sonatas) for less than £20! (compare with Gilbert’s complete edition below which costs around £500).

Ralph Kirkpatrick – facsimiles – In 1953, Kirkpatrick made all of the manuscripts available in facsimile, so if you can get your hands on it, you have the closest to the source version of the sonatas. Unfortunately, he never edited a complete edition (he did edit a limited, 60 sonata edition for Schirmer, see below). Most modern editions refer to this work.

Kenneth Gilbert – “Complete sonatas” – Heugel (11 volumes) – Scholarly work, following closely Kirkpatrick’s edition (limited to 60 sonatas) and facsimiles, plus an exam of the first printings. Although prettyclose to the original, Gilbert has modernised substantially the notation (he uses modern beaming rules, for instance, and transposes awkward clefs, e.g. C-clefs).

Emilia Fadini – “Sonate per clavicembalo” – Ricordi (8 volumes out of 10 planned have alaready been published – 457 sonatas so far) Ricordi says:

“This critical edition of all the sonatas of Domenico Scarlatti is justified by the necessity of offering performers and scholars a text which is philologically faithful to the author's intentions (in so far as this can be reconstructed through a comparative study of the surviving printed and manuscript sources) and which is presented as authentically as possible, free from editorial interference or suggestions for performance or interpretation. The study of musicology and especially of the performing traditions of baroque music has advanced considerably since Alessandro Longo achieved the mammoth task of publishing the entire corpus of Scarlatti's sonatas for the first time, and today we can deal with problems of text and interpretation with a surer and deeper methodological awareness; all of these will be adequately treated in the Appendix to this edition, which will contain also a general thematic catalog of the complete sonatas.”

Fadini is also in the process of recording (for Stradivarius) all the sonatas on the fortepiano (presently in vol. 5).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition?
«Reply #3 on: July 12, 2005, 11:02:36 AM »
II. A few selected partial editions.

Although not complete, the editions below are particularly recommended in view of their textual fidelity, reliability and the often extensive notes and performance explanations supplied by the editors.

Ralph Kirkpatrick – “60 sonatas” (in two volumes) – Schirmer. This is highly recommended. It has a wonderful preface detailing many aspects of performance and analysis of the sonatas (including ornamentation). Kirkpartick also recorded (on the harpsichord) all 60 sonatas.

Maurice Hinson – “At the piano with Scarlatti”  - Alfred – Sixteen sonatas – the first 25 pages are devoted to the historical background and performance directions for Baroque music in general.

“Piano Sonatas” – Alfred – 27 sonatas (2 volumes), with an excellent preface and indepth discussion on ornamentation.

Stoddard Lincoln – “The Scholar’s Scarlatti” – Novello – 42 sonatas in 3 volumes, in ascending order of difficulty. Excellent introductions and performance directions for each sonata (with a very good discussion on ornamentation choices and possibilities), Lincoln’s explicit aim was to use the sonatas as teaching devices (as originally intended by Scarlatti): “You will become ‘scholars’ of Scarlatti and enjoy many of the same lessons that Maria Barbara [Scarlatti’s pupil and Queen of Spain] worked on. Your training, like hers, will be thorough in both its technical and musical aspects.”

Schwerdtener – “Domenico Scarlatti” – Schott – 48 sonatas This is a reliable edition, based on manuscripts and first prints. Unfortunately, neither K or L numbers are supplied. However I am including it here first because it is a very good selection, second because the sonatas are presented in progressive order of difficulty, and finally because fingering is provided (even if you disagree with the fingering, it is always good to have a starting point).

Joseph Banowetz – “Domenico Sacarlatti – Selected sonatas” – Kjos – One interesting feature of this edition is that the editor’s markings are printed in red, to differentiate them from Scarlatti’s markings. The preface is excellent and extensive.

Richard Jones – “The Five fugues” – ABRSM – As usual with ABRSM editions, this is a reliable and carefully researched edition where the editor’s markings are clearly differentiated from Scarlatti’s, and fingering is provided.

Howard Ferguson – “Nine sonatas” – ABRSM – Another scholarly edition from the ABRSM, and although there is lots of editor’s suggestions and fingering, they are consistently excellent. Ornament realisations are provided in small face just above the staff.

Eiji Hashimoto - Schirmer: 100 Sonatas in 3 volumes. Pretty much identical to Kirkpatrick’s edition. Extensive performance notes.

Gyorgy Balla - Editio Musica Budapest: 200 Sonatas in 4 volumes. Follows closely on Kirkpatrick’s footsteps, but a more extensive selection.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.



The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline 00range

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Re: Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition?
«Reply #4 on: July 12, 2005, 06:29:36 PM »
II. A few selected partial editions.

Although not complete, the editions below are particularly recommended in view of their textual fidelity, reliability and the often extensive notes and performance explanations supplied by the editors.

Ralph Kirkpatrick – “60 sonatas” (in two volumes) – Schirmer. This is highly recommended. It has a wonderful preface detailing many aspects of performance and analysis of the sonatas (including ornamentation). Kirkpartick also recorded (on the harpsichord) all 60 sonatas.

Maurice Hinson – “At the piano with Scarlatti”  - Alfred – Sixteen sonatas – the first 25 pages are devoted to the historical background and performance directions for Baroque music in general.

“Piano Sonatas” – Alfred – 27 sonatas (2 volumes), with an excellent preface and indepth discussion on ornamentation.

Stoddard Lincoln – “The Scholar’s Scarlatti” – Novello – 42 sonatas in 3 volumes, in ascending order of difficulty. Excellent introductions and performance directions for each sonata (with a very good discussion on ornamentation choices and possibilities), Lincoln’s explicit aim was to use the sonatas as teaching devices (as originally intended by Scarlatti): “You will become ‘scholars’ of Scarlatti and enjoy many of the same lessons that Maria Barbara [Scarlatti’s pupil and Queen of Spain] worked on. Your training, like hers, will be thorough in both its technical and musical aspects.”

Schwerdtener – “Domenico Scarlatti” – Schott – 48 sonatas This is a reliable edition, based on manuscripts and first prints. Unfortunately, neither K or L numbers are supplied. However I am including it here first because it is a very good selection, second because the sonatas are presented in progressive order of difficulty, and finally because fingering is provided (even if you disagree with the fingering, it is always good to have a starting point).

Joseph Banowetz – “Domenico Sacarlatti – Selected sonatas” – Kjos – One interesting feature of this edition is that the editor’s markings are printed in red, to differentiate them from Scarlatti’s markings. The preface is excellent and extensive.

Richard Jones – “The Five fugues” – ABRSM – As usual with ABRSM editions, this is a reliable and carefully researched edition where the editor’s markings are clearly differentiated from Scarlatti’s, and fingering is provided.

Howard Ferguson – “Nine sonatas” – ABRSM – Another scholarly edition from the ABRSM, and although there is lots of editor’s suggestions and fingering, they are consistently excellent. Ornament realisations are provided in small face just above the staff.

Eiji Hashimoto - Schirmer: 100 Sonatas in 3 volumes. Pretty much identical to Kirkpatrick’s edition. Extensive performance notes.

Gyorgy Balla - Editio Musica Budapest: 200 Sonatas in 4 volumes. Follows closely on Kirkpatrick’s footsteps, but a more extensive selection.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

If someone were to pick up all of these editions, would they wind up with many versions of the same sonata, or would these texts compliment eachother nicely?
'Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can *** off.'

Offline bernhard

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Re: Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition?
«Reply #5 on: July 13, 2005, 12:36:55 AM »
Since Kirkpatrick published the facsimiles for the sources of the sonatas, most editions follow it. There is not much difference between these different editions except that sometimes the editors differ in the following areas:

1. Articulation and phrasing (Scarlatti supplied none - they mnay have been obvious to the musicians of his time).

2. Ornamentation. Scarlatti notation for ornaments is pretty poor and in most cases ambiguous. Some editions provide realisations. However there is no general agreement.

3. Performance notes. Again you will find conflicting ideas.

So, do the editions differ much? Not really (except for the Longo edition which should be avoided or complemented).

Do they complement each other? Not necessarily. Mostly they provide different alternatives, and then you must decide which one you are going to follow.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline Abstract Harmony

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Re: Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition?
«Reply #6 on: July 13, 2005, 10:58:33 PM »
Thanks Bernhard! 

I have one more question and it is about the Longo edition on the CD collection.  Are the fingerings and hand placement correct on this edition?  If its piece specific, I'm working on K213/L108 and K201/L129. 

Offline bernhard

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Re: Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition?
«Reply #7 on: July 13, 2005, 11:09:34 PM »
Thanks Bernhard! 

I have one more question and it is about the Longo edition on the CD collection.  Are the fingerings and hand placement correct on this edition? 

I have the Longo edition on CD, and it is not good  >:( if you are a purist. Fortunately my local library has the Gilbert edition, :D so whenever I learn a sonata, I go to the library and correct the Longo scores. (Read Kirkpatrick’s comments on Longo above). :P

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline Abstract Harmony

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Re: Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition?
«Reply #8 on: July 13, 2005, 11:22:37 PM »
I have the Longo edition on CD, and it is not good  >:( if you are a purist. Fortunately my local library has the Gilbert edition, :D so whenever I learn a sonata, I go to the library and correct the Longo scores. (Read Kirkpatrick’s comments on Longo above). :P

Best wishes,
Bernhard.


Eh...well I guess I'm going to have to cross my fingers and hope my teacher is fairly familiar with Scarlatti and will give me appropriate fingerings.  Figuring out fingerings isn't hard,  but I don't want to lose the technical aspect the piece is supposed to train. 

Offline bernhard

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Re: Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition?
«Reply #9 on: July 13, 2005, 11:34:00 PM »
Eh...well I guess I'm going to have to cross my fingers and hope my teacher is fairly familiar with Scarlatti and will give me appropriate fingerings.  Figuring out fingerings isn't hard,  but I don't want to lose the technical aspect the piece is supposed to train. 

Scarlatti never provided any fingerings. use whatever fingering is the most comfortable. You see, this idea that you should use a fingering that is uncomfortable because this si what you want to train misses the point completely.

Have a look at this very interesting site where these things are discussed in more depth:

http://www.sankey.ws/scarlattirec.html
(Sankey’s site)


(And if you can, read the Kirkpatrick preface to his edition of 60 sonatas for Schirmer).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline viktorradic

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Re: Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition?
«Reply #10 on: October 24, 2013, 02:06:17 PM »
Hello!
I have read all your messages. I can't decide what edition to buy. Some of them don't have the sonatas I want to play, and in some editions I don't know what sonatas are in wich volume (ex:Ricordi)! What do you prefer? Which one is "the best"?
Thanks,
V.

Offline outin

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Re: Scarlatti, Hashimoto Edition?
«Reply #11 on: October 24, 2013, 05:12:26 PM »
There are 3 Henle editions which are otherwise nice, but the fingerings are often weird...at least for my hands. But I just ignore them.
The list of sonatas included in these editions is available on the Henle website:
http://www.henle.com/en/detail/index.html?Title=Selected+Piano+Sonatas%2C+Volume+I_395
http://www.henle.com/en/detail/index.html?Title=Selected+Piano+Sonatas%2C+Volume+II_451
http://www.henle.com/en/detail/index.html?Title=Selected+Piano+Sonatas%2C+Volume+III_476

If you have a lot of cash to spend, you can buy them all, either the Heugel (notice the paper/print quality does not match up with the price) or Ricordi (Fadini editions). For Ricordi if you want to know which sonatas are in which volume, they are all listed here:
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/search?Ntt=scarlatti+fadini
Just click on the volume and then go to "song list".
I will probably end up buying all of these eventually. The only thing I don't like about them is they don't lay flat...In that sense Henle is superior :)

Peters also has a pretty good selection in two volumes. If you like I can PM you a list of the sonatas included in each.

You can get the Schirmer 60 sonatas (Kirkpatrick) quite cheap, so that is a good buy.