Most demanding piece for hand independence?

[sevencircles]

Hi!

I have always been impressed with people that can play in different timesignatures with each hand at the same time

What piece would you say is the most  difficult standard piece when it comes to left/righthand independence?

Who is the best pianist in the left/righthandindendence respect?

[orlandopiano]

Hi!

I have always been impressed with people that can play in different timesignatures with each hand at the same time

What piece would you say is the most  difficult standard piece when it comes to left/righthand independence?

Who is the best pianist in the left/righthandindendence respect?

By far the most difficult piece I've ever played in that regard is Godowsky's study on Chopin's Nouvelle Etude in A flat.

[musicsdarkangel]

Orland made a very good suggestion..... I'm sure more of the Godowsky studies would be great for that as well.

The Grieg concerto in a minor, 1st movement actually has a lot of 7 on 5, and such.

If you are talking poly rhythms, than I can't help you much.


But for hand independance, I would say the Fugue of the Barber Sonata is pretty nuts.

[thierry13]

Some part's of Opus clavicembalisticum, Sonata no.1 by Sorabji. Not the hardest, but sorabji put LOTS of polyrythms.

[chromatickler]

By far the most difficult piece I've ever played in that regard is Godowsky's study on Chopin's Nouvelle Etude in A flat.

i haven't played that one. but i believe his ignus faituus transcription of 10/2 is more difficult.

[ramseytheii]

i haven't played that one. but i believe his ignus faituus transcription of 10/2 is more difficult.

I was definitely going to suggest Ignus fatuus.  I also don;t know the Godowsky version of the New Etude, but I do know that this one requires the absolute perfection of eigth-note triplets in the RH, against a perpetual sixteenth note figure in the LH.  The problem couldn't be laid out in a more clear way.
By the way, does anyone know what "ignus fatuus" means or refers to?

Walter Ramsey

[jeremyjchilds]

Hi!

I have always been impressed with people that can play in different timesignatures with each hand at the same time

What piece would you say is the most  difficult standard piece when it comes to left/righthand independence?

Who is the best pianist in the left/righthandindendence respect?

Forget pianists, check out a jazz drummer with 4-way independance...and still swingin' from the rafters...

[thierry13]

Who is the best pianist in the left/righthandindendence respect?

Probably Hamelin. He's like the best pianist for mostly... all  I'm sure he can play octaves at least as fast as horowitz.

[sevencircles]

Probably Hamelin. He's like the best pianist for mostly... all   I'm sure he can play octaves at least as fast as horowitz.

I doubt that Hamelin is the best in this respect.

Some people can write different words with both hands at the same time and I assume that these people can become terrific independent players!

[chromatickler]

Some people can write different words with both hands at the same time!

it takes some practice and that's about it.

[thracozaag]

Hi!

I have always been impressed with people that can play in different timesignatures with each hand at the same time

 Fun for the whole family:


koji

[orlandopiano]

Fun for the whole family:


koji

Yikes!  For a piece like that, it'd probably just be easier for me to get the CD and try learning it by ear.

[ramseytheii]

I doubt that Hamelin is the best in this respect.

Some people can write different words with both hands at the same time and I assume that these people can become terrific independent players!

It ws Thomas Jefferson who could write in Latin with one hand, and simultaneously in Greek with the other hand!

Walter Ramsey

[pseudopianist]

Fun for the whole family:


koji

I believe we have a winner

[sevencircles]

Any recomended redordings of Tango?

[nanabush]

Wouldn't the Tango be easier if you broke up the time signatures into common denominator things like fractions, then wrote the whole piece on one stave?  Just a thought..because then you could see the exact space between each note..


edit:  I don't think that would work 

[JPRitchie]

The top two staffs might have been combined into a single (6/8) with two voices. Just re-label the top one (multiplier = 2/2 = 1) and then relabel while dotting everything in the middle one (multiplier = 6/4 = 3/2 = 1.5) and add it as a second voice. But the bottom staff isn't easily combined because the  multiplier is 6/5, = 1.2, which can't be written as an integer times an inverse power of two. This has been mentioned before and I would have thought it would be more easily comprehended.

It can be observed that, alternatively, the top staff could have been labeled as 6/8,  without any other changes. This would give time signatures of 4/8, 5/8, and 6/8. Weird.

The only possible hypothesis I can think of is that, Nancarrow wasn't attempting to transcribe, say, pastoral sounds (Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony) or locomotive sounds (Joplin's Crush Collision march) to sheet music. Instead, he was using a numerical approach of some sort, possibly based upon irrational fractions.

More info.:
https://www.tomate.com.mx/nancarrow/

Nancarrow Discography: (Tango is on Vol. II)
https://www.tomate.com.mx/nancarrow/recordings.html

Purchase:
https://www.cdemusic.org/store/cde_search.cfm?keywords=20thoriginals

More about James Tenney: (something contemporary)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tenney
-Jim

[thracozaag]

The top two staffs might have been combined into a single (6/8) with two voices. Just re-label the top one (multiplier = 2/2 = 1) and then relabel while dotting everything in the middle one (multiplier = 6/4 = 3/2 = 1.5) and add it as a second voice. But the bottom staff isn't easily combined because the  multiplier is 6/5, = 1.2, which can't be written as an integer times an inverse power of two. This has been mentioned before and I would have thought it would be more easily comprehended.

It can be observed that, alternatively, the top staff could have been labeled as 6/8,  without any other changes. This would give time signatures of 4/8, 5/8, and 6/8. Weird.

The only possible hypothesis I can think of is that, Nancarrow wasn't attempting to transcribe, say, pastoral sounds (Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony) or locomotive sounds (Joplin's Crush Collision march) to sheet music. Instead, he was using a numerical approach of some sort, possibly based upon irrational fractions.

-Jim

  Very interesting hypothesis actually, never thought of it in those terms.  More about this piece on PF here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,10728.0.html

koji

[Etude]

Some part's of Opus clavicembalisticum, Sonata no.1 by Sorabji. Not the hardest, but sorabji put LOTS of polyrythms.

Yes, have you seen the adagio?   

[perfect_pitch]

For the left hand - it is Goudowski's arrangement of Chopins Ocean Etude for LH only....

[JPRitchie]

I should say that by "irrational fraction", I meant the ratio of two irrational numbers, like natural log over pi. Normally, irrational numbers cannot be represented as fractions.

Second observation is that pitch is strictly based upon fractions. Doubling the length of a piece of string lowers its pitch by an octave. Taking 2/3 the length, raises it a fifth.
-Jim

[mozoot]

Check out the 7th piece in the Ligeti Musica Ricercata, titled Cantabile, molto legato........
you'll forget about the "tango".

[mlsmithz]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the Scriabin etudes - plenty of polyrhythms across those.  There's 9 vs. 5, 5 vs. 3 (this one is my personal favourite), and numerous others I can't remember offhand.

And for the record, it was James Garfield, president for around six months in 1881 before being assassinated, who was ambidextrous and could write in Latin with one hand and Greek with the other simultaneously - not Thomas Jefferson.  I wonder if he played the piano?