Learning proper movements; reading and implementing ideas; concerns and Q's

[m1469]

I have just ordered the following books and will be expecting their arrival within the week.

Mastering Piano Technique : A Guide for Students, Teachers and Performers
By: Seymour Fink

What Every Pianist Needs to Know About the Body
By: Roberta Gary, et al

On Piano Playing: Motion, Sound, and Expression
By: Gyorgy Sandor

20 Lessons in Keyboard Choreography
By: Seymour Bernstein

I am planning to get to know specifics about the things these books entail.  I have some concerns and questions.

My concerns are along the lines of the millepede being asked how he manages to walk with so many legs, and upon thinking about it, he no longer can.  Also, learning about all of the technical terms for both body parts and "proper" movements is about the most counter-intuitive thing I can imagine for piano playing.  There are some specific reasons why I personally feel this way.  Some of it is my up-bringing where very little focus has been put on the workings of the body in general.  I did not even attend health classes.  I am explaining this in efforts to help anyone who may answer my thread here, to better understand my feelings of foreign-ness in this area of study.  Aside from that, my main concern is as I initially stated :  Becoming so aware of the body itself and the "proper" movements, that it may actually hinder the *just playing* aspects of the music I am attempting to create.

It has been mentioned numbers of times on this forum that one should, hear the sound you are wanting to have produced, and your body will conform, more or less.  How does this fit with tyring to intellectualize out all of the proper movements ?

Also, along those same lines, I am concerned that suddenly I will be placing false limitations on myself and on my students as a result of what I may learn.  "Oh, I see his hand is shaped like such, so he will not be capable of accomplishing such and such."  When if he just concentrated on the sound he wanted to hear, he would manage just fine.

Those are my concerns, and while I have not actually read the books yet, nor tried the concepts, this is simply an area I feel the most apprehension in with regard to learning about playing the piano.  It is a lot for me to have even ordered the books.

My questions following, are a simple wish for those whom have worked with proper body movements and such, and perhaps even these exact books I have ordered, to perhaps comment on how important you have found this knowledge to be in either your own playing, or in your teaching. 

Do you feel this knowledge has "changed" anything for you ?

If teaching, do you find yourself easily implementing the ideas (perhaps without getting too technical) ?

Has your confidence in playing and teaching grown as a result of this knowledge ?

Have you actually improved in facility as a direct result of this study ?

Have you actually avoided injury over the years as a result of this study ?

In the end, do you feel this knowledge is essential ?


Feel free to add any other comments you feel may be appropriate to the conversation.  I know this will not be a quick answer, and I appreciate VERY MUCH your willingness to respond.  It should help others as well, besides just me and my students.

Thanks very much,
m1469

[leahcim]

I have just ordered the following books and will be expecting their arrival within the week.

Mastering Piano Technique : A Guide for Students, Teachers and Performers
By: Seymour Fink

20 Lessons in Keyboard Choreography
By: Seymour Bernstein

These are the books I've got from your list. I'll add my 2p - but bear in mind it's from trying to use the books, rather than judging them from existing knowledge / expert viewpoint or teaching experience.

Firstly I'd say [I've said before] you reading them as a teacher is, I think, better than students buying them and trying to learn from them [although as a reference after some one-to-one demonstrations they are probably useful to have]

The 20 lessons is easier to follow than Finks, has better pictures, but seems less complete overall. It has very easy "pieces" simple notes played with the technique he's teaching [legato, staccato etc] at different dynamics, at very slow tempos. There are a few snippets from pieces, but they are Soldiers March type things - the kind of tune your average player has probably already played. You have to read carefully to make sure you don't miss the "invisible" movement points - otherwise you'd end up thinking piano is about wrists flying up and down and forearms twisting side to side.

I often think the pictures in the book show his wrists very low.

OTOH, Fink borders on your worries w.r.t making it so verbose that you end up not being able to move your hands. It starts completely away from the piano - fair enough, nothing there to confuse.

Once you get to the piano though, to me, it uses examples that sound too advanced [of course, a snippet from an advanced piece might not be the reason the piece is advanced, but...] That, along with the verbose description might lead you to the conclusion that it's a book for people who can play the piano rather than a book that's talking about something you should do from day one of learning to play - which to me seems wrong.

If you imagine Bernhard didn't stop at the point in his posts where he says "writing it is confusing etc etc, it's easier to demonstrate" and instead attempted to carry on explaining more and more, inventing his own words for particular movements along the way. The resulting incomprehensible and confusing post would be a fair way towards how I perceive Fink's book - and it largely is verbose, there's little in the way of illustrations, mainly pencil drawings and at least once it mentions "elbow" in the text, but the pictures for that bit don't have the elbows drawn.

But, I've still pulled lots of things from the book, you'll probably relate it to your own playing and it'll make far more sense. Perhaps the video is the key?

It has been mentioned numbers of times on this forum that one should, hear the sound you are wanting to have produced, and your body will conform, more or less.  How does this fit with tyring to intellectualize out all of the proper movements ?

My opinion is that the idea "proper sound means you must be using proper technique", which I've read on the internet, is bogus. If you can make a decent tone standing up holding a pencil, that wouldn't be the proper movement afaict. I don't believe engineering or physics supports the notion that there is only one way to get a specific tone nor that using any other method [pencil, twisted wrist, incorrect fingering or whatever] that the tone will necessarily show a flaw. OTOH, the sound is obviously a major part of doing the movements, so you can't just try to make correct movements either. IMO it's both - listening and feeling [and probably what Bernhard said about knowing how to find the correct movements for a snippet from a piece]

Do you feel this knowledge has "changed" anything for you ?

Yes. The books have improved my playing, but if nothing else, they've also made me aware that there is something I needed to be aware of in the first place - if that makes sense

I reached the conclusion that they aren't much use alone though - a teacher that is aware seems far more key from this student perspective.

OTOH, if you look at Bernhard's recent list, it's one item out of many, so I wouldn't consider it over everything [well I would, because it's the biggest stumbling block for me personally, but from a teaching pov, you might find your students play relaxed etc but struggle with reading music or theory and thus you don't need to focus on it]

I think it's a key one because (a) Some folk get injured and you don't get injured learning theory or reading music badly and (b) Much of the rest of piano playing is sort of intellectual / subjective things - the kind of things where in other subjects you stop once you've done that bit - before you have to make significant physical movements - e.g playing chess - you're unlikely to worry too much about how you move chess pieces w.r.t your game and (c) it's the one that's very difficult to describe - compared with the posts on practise methods for example.

[nyquist]

I have just ordered the following books and will be expecting their arrival within the week.
...


Do you feel this knowledge has "changed" anything for you ?

If teaching, do you find yourself easily implementing the ideas (perhaps without getting too technical) ?

Has your confidence in playing and teaching grown as a result of this knowledge ?

Have you actually improved in facility as a direct result of this study ?

Have you actually avoided injury over the years as a result of this study ?

In the end, do you feel this knowledge is essential ?

...

I own and have read each and every one of the books you list.  I also have a largish collection of older books:  Matthay, Ortmann, Schulz,  etc.  I have read them carefully trying to find out the secret of good technique.  (As you can see, I suffer of a bad case of OCD.)  My experience has been that I cannot learn piano technique from books.  

On the other hand, I have been taken lessons with a member of the Golandsky Institute faculty (a Taubman offshot) for a few months now.  These lessons have  changed completely my approach to the keyboard, but it has been and still is an uphill battle.  For me, the guidance of a real live human being is crucial.

Good luck in your project!

[rc]

You sure know how to worry yourself up, m1469. 

I have just ordered the following books and will be expecting their arrival within the week.

Mastering Piano Technique : A Guide for Students, Teachers and Performers
By: Seymour Fink

What Every Pianist Needs to Know About the Body
By: Roberta Gary, et al

On Piano Playing: Motion, Sound, and Expression
By: Gyorgy Sandor

I got these three books about 2 months ago, along with Finks video. I plan on working through the Fink book first (because it comes with the video) then seeing what the Sandor book can add/elaborate to what I've learned. Flipping through the Sandor book, it seems to describe the same ideas from a different angle. Sandors book also has some chapters discussing non-technical issues like interpretation and mannerisms.

Fink: begins with exercises standing away from the piano, then adapts these arbitrary movements to the piano and builds more complex movements from that foundation. I'm still in the AFK section, but flipping ahead the idea seems to build a repertory of movements that you can apply to the music. It explains a movement and provides a few examples of advanced literature where the movement would be applicable. Some of the advanced movements are difficult to understand in writing, that's where the video makes you go 'aha, that's what he means'. The video is worth getting.

The body book is Alexanders technique specifically applied to piano. It describes how the joints line up in good posture, how the arms work, balance... I'm about halfway through this one and have found it already useful in helping my posture at the bench. The idea is that you learn how the body works and develop a sense of when it's working in harmony, when it isn't and how to fix it. Even though it's anatomy, the book is very well written and easy to understand.

I am planning to get to know specifics about the things these books entail.  I have some concerns and questions.

My concerns are along the lines of the millepede being asked how he manages to walk with so many legs, and upon thinking about it, he no longer can.  Also, learning about all of the technical terms for both body parts and "proper" movements is about the most counter-intuitive thing I can imagine for piano playing.  There are some specific reasons why I personally feel this way.  Some of it is my up-bringing where very little focus has been put on the workings of the body in general.  I did not even attend health classes.  I am explaining this in efforts to help anyone who may answer my thread here, to better understand my feelings of foreign-ness in this area of study.  Aside from that, my main concern is as I initially stated :  Becoming so aware of the body itself and the "proper" movements, that it may actually hinder the *just playing* aspects of the music I am attempting to create.

I never knew a thing about the body either, and some of it is different from how I thought the body worked, but like I said it's very easy to understand and use. It tells you what you need to know to avoid injury and make life easier at the piano... I still play the same, just that my back doesn't get tense anymore.

It has been mentioned numbers of times on this forum that one should, hear the sound you are wanting to have produced, and your body will conform, more or less.  How does this fit with tyring to intellectualize out all of the proper movements ?

Consciously make the proper movements habit so that all you have to do is imagine the sound and your body does it. Same as if you learn any piece using any movement well enough, you don't have to think of the motions anymore.

Also, along those same lines, I am concerned that suddenly I will be placing false limitations on myself and on my students as a result of what I may learn.  "Oh, I see his hand is shaped like such, so he will not be capable of accomplishing such and such."  When if he just concentrated on the sound he wanted to hear, he would manage just fine.

Nothing I've read so far says anything limiting. It's more like "maybe he will have an easier time if his hand if shaped this way instead". I haven't been through the books yet, but I see it more as providing options than limitations.


These aren't books to just read through though, you've got to work through them. They each explain themselves completely in their introductions, so you'll see when they arrive. The video is good to have as a companion to the book, you can check the video to see if you're doing it right or to figure out what he's trying to get at in the book.

[m1469]

You sure know how to worry yourself up, m1469. 

Yeah... 

It just feels like an entirely different subject to me and it makes me nervous... like once I know, I can never go back... like my innocence will be gone ... LOL.


These posts are incredibly helpful to me, thank you to those people whom have contributed to this thread.


m1469 

[celticqt]

WOW.

I don't have too much to contribute (you just reminded me how little I know), but....

Do you feel this knowledge has "changed" anything for you ?

If teaching, do you find yourself easily implementing the ideas (perhaps without getting too technical) ?

Has your confidence in playing and teaching grown as a result of this knowledge ?

I recently read a book on the Alexander technique, and while not planning to take classes or study with a teacher, implementing some of those principles has helped me release tension while playing, especially in my arms and back.  I haven't used any of those ideas with my students yet, although I do emphasize relaxation in general with them.  I think most of what I do is intuitive, and I don't want to mess with it too much.
 
I can recommend another book, since you're in a reading mood.  It's called Anxiety and Musical Perfomance by Dale Reubart -- a very insightful and well-thought-out book that helped me put some things in perspective.

Oh by the way m1469......I have been working on that Schumann I was telling you about before for about four hours and for the first time I'm actually memorizing as I practice.  It's Wonderful!

[ramseytheii]

I don't know the books you are getting, except the Sandor, which I found interesting but honestly at the time of little help.  But a lot of this depends on if are minds are ready to process all this information about what we are doing with ourselves!! And, if we can relate some weird abstract information, which it always is, to an actual inner feeling.

I've also read Basic Principles by Josef and Rhosina Lhevinne; the Giesking book (can't recall the title); From the Pianist's Bench by Boris Berman; and the now hard-to-find Charles Cooke.  I found most help in the ideas how to practice, not from any physical descriptions.

But there came a time when I needed some physical help, I was able to manage a lot of repertoire without knowing how to do this or that, but some things I couldn't even approach.  I could only play two chopin etudes ofr instance: op 25 nos 1 and 2 ! And those not so so well.  When I learned more things (really learned!) about how the body and the keyboard work together, new worlds opened up for me.  I am trying to say you shouldn't be so worried about the millipede syndrome.  Because for me the knowledge didn't stop me from doing anything, rather, when I became stuck somewhere, I activated the knowledge to find a solution, where before I could find none.  I don't advise, if you learn something about the hand doing this or that, or th eelbow, to try it out in whatever passage.  Wait until you (or a student) reaches that place where no amount of inner listening, or imaginative pictures, seems to work, then apply that knowledge!
Also some people sem to be afraid that once they know "how" to play piano their instinct for playing will proportionaly decrease.  For me this has not been true and I don't find any less satisfaction now, only more.  For me the more I learned about how the body and keyboard worked together, the more I was amazed at all the music that was such beautiful music, and fit so beautifully on the piano!  It actually increased the mystery for me.  How could Chopin, for instance, come up with 24 etudes, all sounding totally different, representing so many characters, in so many different keys, and have them all be ultimately ipanistic ?!  It reminds me of what James huneker said of Chopin op.10 no.7 , 'Were ever Beauty and Duty so mated in double harness?'

I say go for it and read read read!

Walter Ramsey

[xvimbi]

I have so far watched this thread from the background...

I am a bit disappointed by the rather sparse discussion about this issue. I am also disappointed that, apparently, not many pianists think knowing about the basics of the human playing apparatus is a worthwhile endeavor. It almost looks like most people seem to be all too eager to go out and buy five more Rach3 recordings to find out what section pianist X is playing in which way, or to find the fastest performance of a Liszt etude.

Most will know that I am a stern believer that understanding one's tools and knowing how they work makes one a better craftsman. All this is not necessary up to a certain level, but beyond, it is vital. Anyway, one can't force people.

There is one aspect that I'd like to mention that hasn't come up so far, and that I think is important for teachers: sooner or later, a student will come and complain about some pain. The teacher is usually the first person who is confronted with this issue. It is crucial for a teacher to provide proper guidance in these instances, for various reasons. It almost breaks my heart when people write in here saying that they are in severe pain, and all they get from their teachers is a shrug.

First, the injury could have been caused by what the teacher has been teaching. That's clearly the worst scenario, but it happens, because one can't really now what works for one person and what doesn't without having extensive experience.

Second, a teacher should direct the student to get proper medical attention, if necessary. I would almost urge teachers to seek out specialists in their area, so that when the issue comes up, they have someone that they can send the student to.

Third, once an injury has been properly diagnosed, the teacher is the one who needs to help the student retrain.

Fourth, although it's not expected (I certainly wouldn't), it would be great if the teacher could help in diagnosing a problem. Many issues can be recognized by an experienced teacher, and retraining can begin before much harm has been done.

How does one get such experience? First, one must keep an open attitude that will encourage students to come fourth with any problems they may have, and that already in very early stages. Many students get pushed to perform in competitions, no matter what. They often hide the fact that they may have problems. Second, of course, observe and learn as much a spossible from every incident. Third, take a couple of students and work through those books together. I would assume, some adult students would be perfectly open to that idea. It's always best to get immediate feedback when acquiring new know-how.

Remember, I am not a piano teacher. I base my observations and recommendations on my area of teaching (science) as well as on posts in this forum. I wonder (and I'm looking forward to learn ) how people like Bernhard have acquired their knowledge and implemented it in their teachings, and what role it plays.

Teachers have a lot of responsibility towards their students. They not only must help their students to overcome hurdles, but also prevent them from crashing right through them.

[celticqt]

There is one aspect that I'd like to mention that hasn't come up so far, and that I think is important for teachers: sooner or later, a student will come and complain about some pain. The teacher is usually the first person who is confronted with this issue. It is crucial for a teacher to provide proper guidance in these instances, for various reasons. It almost breaks my heart when people write in here saying that they are in severe pain, and all they get from their teachers is a shrug.

You are unfortunately right, xvimbi.  Two lessons ago I approached my teacher about the pain in my forearm (which I think I've posted about here before) that comes during octave tremolos and quick repeated bass patterns.  He basically said that I would grow out of it as I practiced more and not to worry about it.  So I've been doing a lot of reading on this forum and trying to implement some of the ideas you and others have put forth.  Thank you for those ideas -- they help me a lot.

Sorry for the departure from topic . . . . now back to our regularly scheduled discussion 

[Herve]

m1469,
Have you forgotten something?

I have been approaching everything with the attitude that there is something completely easy, straight forward and simple about playing.  I just have to discover what that is for me.  Wow!   What a difference this makes!  I am not chipping away at something anymore nor am I forever reinventing the wheel, I am just constantly changing my perspective and approach until I find for myself something that was already there the entire time-- this is a much different sort of responsibility!  

Okay, I will stop ranting.  I am just so excited that I had to share with someone!!!  The best part is, I am just at the tip of the iceberg  !

Here's proof that what you said at that time is "right on". 

...............................     I was able to manage a lot of repertoire without knowing how to do this or that, but some things I couldn't even approach. ........................    When I learned more things (really learned!) about how the body and the keyboard work together, new worlds opened up for me.     ............................     , when I became stuck somewhere, I activated the knowledge to find a solution, where before I could find none.  ...................................................     For me the more I learned about how the body and keyboard worked together,  the more I was amazed at all the music that was such beautiful music, and fit so beautifully on the piano!  It actually increased the mystery for me.  How could Chopin, for instance, come up with 24 etudes, all sounding totally different, representing so many characters, in so many different keys, and have them all be ultimately ipanistic ?!  ..................

I quote again what I believe to be the "GOLD NUGGET" from WALTER"S post:

......... I learned about how the body and keyboard worked together  ..........., and fit so beautifully on the piano!  ..................

I will be so bold as to once again add that what it is that makes the works of Chopin "fit so beautifully"  on the piano is a particular rhythmic "dance".  The dance is the key, not the fingers.  The dance will teach the fingers what to do naturally. 

And more wisdom:

............................   not many pianists think knowing about the basics of the human playing apparatus is a worthwhile endeavor. It almost looks like most people seem to be all too eager to go out and buy five more Rach3 recordings to find out what section pianist X is playing in which way, or to find the fastest performance of a Liszt etude.
...........................   understanding one's tools and knowing how they work makes one a better craftsman. All this is not necessary up to a certain level, but beyond, it is vital.  ..............

I firmly believe that if the human race intensively "studies" and "teaches"  how we hear, speak, see and walk, in the future the world will be populated by "deaf, dumb and blind kids" trying to play "a mean pin ball" from a wheelchair. 

PS
(I apologize to the authors of the posts that I have quoted for removing some of what they have written, and I encourage folks to go back and read the original posts for a complete understanding of their authors'  intent.)

[xvimbi]

I firmly believe that if the human race intensively "studies" and "teaches"  how we hear, speak, see and walk, in the future the world will be populated by "deaf, dumb and blind kids" trying to play "a mean pin ball" from a wheelchair. 

That's a good one

Seriously, do you really believe that knowing how something works will all of a sudden make the ability to do it disappear? If you read my comment again, it was directed at situations where one needs to fix something when things went wrong. I doubt Chopin is going to help much when you develop tendonitis, and a gut-approach to making music or fixing my car will be useless too.

[rimv2]

The martial artist's cycle of learning:

"Before I began studying martial arts, a punch was a punch and a kick was a kick.

While I was learning martial arts, a punch was no longer a punch and a kick no longer a kick.

When I mastered martial arts, a punch a punch and kick was a kick."

Juss gonna leave it at that.

[bernhard]

I have so far watched this thread from the background...

I am a bit disappointed by the rather sparse discussion about this issue. I am also disappointed that, apparently, not many pianists think knowing about the basics of the human playing apparatus is a worthwhile endeavor. It almost looks like most people seem to be all too eager to go out and buy five more Rach3 recordings to find out what section pianist X is playing in which way, or to find the fastest performance of a Liszt etude.

Most will know that I am a stern believer that understanding one's tools and knowing how they work makes one a better craftsman. All this is not necessary up to a certain level, but beyond, it is vital. Anyway, one can't force people.

There is one aspect that I'd like to mention that hasn't come up so far, and that I think is important for teachers: sooner or later, a student will come and complain about some pain. The teacher is usually the first person who is confronted with this issue. It is crucial for a teacher to provide proper guidance in these instances, for various reasons. It almost breaks my heart when people write in here saying that they are in severe pain, and all they get from their teachers is a shrug.

First, the injury could have been caused by what the teacher has been teaching. That's clearly the worst scenario, but it happens, because one can't really now what works for one person and what doesn't without having extensive experience.

Second, a teacher should direct the student to get proper medical attention, if necessary. I would almost urge teachers to seek out specialists in their area, so that when the issue comes up, they have someone that they can send the student to.

Third, once an injury has been properly diagnosed, the teacher is the one who needs to help the student retrain.

Fourth, although it's not expected (I certainly wouldn't), it would be great if the teacher could help in diagnosing a problem. Many issues can be recognized by an experienced teacher, and retraining can begin before much harm has been done.

How does one get such experience? First, one must keep an open attitude that will encourage students to come fourth with any problems they may have, and that already in very early stages. Many students get pushed to perform in competitions, no matter what. They often hide the fact that they may have problems. Second, of course, observe and learn as much a spossible from every incident. Third, take a couple of students and work through those books together. I would assume, some adult students would be perfectly open to that idea. It's always best to get immediate feedback when acquiring new know-how.

Remember, I am not a piano teacher. I base my observations and recommendations on my area of teaching (science) as well as on posts in this forum. I wonder (and I'm looking forward to learn ) how people like Bernhard have acquired their knowledge and implemented it in their teachings, and what role it plays.

Teachers have a lot of responsibility towards their students. They not only must help their students to overcome hurdles, but also prevent them from crashing right through them.

This is a most excellent set of considerations.

It is actually heart sinking to realise how little help an average medical doctor can provide, so many times an injured student has to deal not only with the teacher’s shrugs, but also with the doctor’s standard behaviour of antibiotics, painkillers, and come back in two weeks if things had not improved. Then you have the ones eager to perform some (usually unnecessary) surgery – after all that is what medical insurance is for, right?

So, xvimbi’s idea of doing some research in order to find a medical doctor (or other kind of therapist) who knows about this stuff and has experienced success in dealing with it is very important – well before any injury occurs – so that if it does, you do not have to look at yellow pages with great urgency.

As for my knowledge in these areas, it was acquired like most knowledge is: through classes with more knowledgeable people, through reading, through being curious and investigative, through observing and experimenting. But above all, I dislike tradition and I am of the firm belief that there is no end to improvement, so I am always on the look out for ways to improve what I do/know. I am particularly intolerant and impatient with the authority fallacy (“So and so is an authority. Therefore if s/he said it must be true). Ideas should always stand by themselves, although sometimes some people express ideas with great felicity. If so, it is perfectly valid to quote them, not because they are authorities, but because they made an idea stand on particularly firm ground.
 
Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[lostinidlewonder]

....., hear the sound you are wanting to have produced, and your body will conform, more or less.  How does this fit with trying to intellectualize out all of the proper movements ?

There is no way one could write text or shoot photographs to demonstrate exactly how one should physically play the piano in the most efficient manner possible and producing the desired sound. It just cannot be done in a way which would help every single person studying piano. But we can make generalisations which act as a guide.

What to me seem to be most important when trying to improve physical action at the piano is understanding how we actually make physical changes to our hands to encourage efficient energy transfer to the keys. This is usually done by asking, "Does this passage feel comfortable when I play?" I always ask a student who has trouble with a section which notes causes the discomfort and work from there how we go about controlling it. The thing is, different notes give different problems to different people, this is something which is hard to address in a book.

When one is over obsessive about making everything they play automatic and totally effortless they will invest a huge amount of time on one piece to achieve it. But I think there needs to be restraint for the developing student because I find slowing your progress in repertoire memorisation can be more damaging to your piano development than having inefficiencies in your technique. I find many inefficiencies in our playing can be ironed out with a developing repetiore, but eventually we have to consider efficiency closely as repetiore increases in complexity.

I really find that best, most efficient physical action at the piano isn't so stressed early on in piano playing. But when you play more advanced pieces, an inefficient procedure at the keyboard can translate into bad playing. You can get away with inefficiency with easier piece, you can even practice inefficiently and control it in harder pieces, but to really improve your piano technique and to preserve your piano playing future you have to have a close relationship with the EFFORTLESS touch at the keyboard. Someone who plays inefficiently for 30 years will most probably not be able to physically control the inefficiency in their later years.

Every person does have unique difference in the precise way they touch the piano. There are guidelines to maintain efficiency that will help every one, for example, knowing where the center of your hands are while playing, aligning fingers with keys, flattening fingers to maintain a more natural playing form, familiarising shapes caused in your hands by chords and arpeggios and a million billion other things etc. These will help but can only be generalisations which will not help you unless you can actually form them around your own playing procedure and know when and where to use them. Books are good because they point out generalisations but none can tell you how, they can only say, watch out for, or try.

[pnorcks]

...my main concern is as I initially stated : Becoming so aware of the body itself and the "proper" movements, that it may actually hinder the *just playing* aspects of the music I am attempting to create.

m1469,

This is an important concern.  You'll find that both Mark and Fink (and Sandor to an extent) address this issue in their books.  I haven't read the book by Bernstein.

IMO, when you are learning how to move efficiently with the aid of a teacher or with any of these books, it will only hinder your music making abilities if you do not listen to the sounds being produced by these movements.  Let's say, for example, you are reading the section of Fink's book on "joggle movement," and you are in the process of learning it.  If you thoroughly ingrain the joggle movement kinesthetically, but not aurally, you won't be able to effectively execute this movement so that it makes "musical" sense in the context of a piece.  So, it is all about linking kinesthetic sensation to aural image.  If the pianist strives towards this goal, s/he will be able to incorporate these "efficient" movements into his/her technique.

It has been mentioned numbers of times on this forum that one should, hear the sound you are wanting to have produced, and your body will conform, more or less.

This statement presumes that an accurate aural image will activate an appropriate coordination of the body.  I believe this is true only if the mind isn't interfering with the process.  (The following is all IMO)  First, the body map (the mind's image of the internal workings of the body) must be correct.  Second, the pianist must realize that the body coordinates best by moving from center to periphery.  This means that the fingers, hands, and forearms shouldn't move without moving the upper arm first (as well as a minutae of movement in the shoulder girdle depending on the passage).  This is only one aspect of the center to periphery concept, and it'll take too long to explain the rest of it.  Third, the mind should be free of mental chatter (fears, doubts, judgments, etc.) so as not to disturb the image of the sound one wants to produce. 


I have absorbed a lot of content from these three books on the intellectual level, but I haven't successfully implemented many of them in my playing yet.  The best approach is to seriously work on the material presented to you as you go along, at the piano (or away from the piano in the case of Fink's Section One).  I tend to try and cram as much of this sort of material into my head as possible, and then work on applying it afterwards, but this approach doesn't work so well.

From Mark, I've learned that mapping the body is important in that if a certain joint isn't mapped, then it tends not to move at all while playing the piano.  This means that static muscular activity could be occurring (tension from holding something still).  Also, a joint may be mapped, but incorrectly, and this will cause tension due to the inefficient movement.

Seymour Fink's book as well as Abby Whiteside's books have left a deep impression on me.  It is this whole idea about moving from center to periphery that really clicks.

It's exciting to know that there is so much reading material out there regarding learning proper movements.  I think acquiring a technique free of unneccesary tension and effort is the best way to go (to avoid injury).  Now I just have to internalize it all (mentally and physically).

Good luck with your exploration, m1469! 

pnorcks

[Herve]

I’m sorry that I wrote that last bit about the “deaf, dumb”, etc., because now I have had to write yet another post, and it is not something that I enjoy doing.  So this will certainly be my last post for quite some time, even though someone has said on this forum that he’s buying a piano with a hard, stiff action in order that he’ll be more adequately prepared for what he and others must apparently believe is a world filled with Steinway pianos having such actions.  Amazing.

If they dare “run the gauntlet”, other brave souls will have to go to the rescue on that one.

Apparently people love to seek out “How to Play the Piano” recipes, so I’ve included my very own at the end of this post, and - joy of joys – (unlike the rest of the post) it’s short and sweet.

xvimbi,

Yes, I realized that your post was primarily about the issue of pain or injury and how it should be dealt with.  I quoted the parts of your post that interested me and which I thought applied to m1469’s original post, and I’m sorry if I used them for a purpose which you had not yourself intended – especially if you disagree with the “point” I was trying to make with them.  From the nature of your last paragraph, I guess maybe you did, but I liked what you said, nonetheless. (“Man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest” - it’s so true.)

I agree that you won’t get much therapy for tendonitis or a bum thumb by playing Chopin Etudes.

I meant what you quoted of my post to apply to those who don’t already do those behaviors – very young children.  If similar effort and methodology that I have observed  teachers employ hundreds of times to “impart knowledge of” playing the piano to students, were employed to “train” these “natural” things to very young children, I believe the success rate would probably be the similar to that in producing piano players, and we’d end up with the world I described. 

(Of course the reality is that a piano is, unlike ears, vocal cords, eyes and legs, separate from the body and far too large for a child to operate as an adult would.  This means that considerable time must pass before the child can dance the proper dance.  I think an innovative piano manufacturer would make some money producing a high-quality instrument sized proportionally to fit the bodies of children say from 3 to 6 or 7 years old – maybe one quarter or one third of full size.  The child’s earlier access to an instrument would be a tremendous help in their musical development.  Combine this with a parent who plays well, and the piano world would almost certainly be much different.)

I do not think that knowing how something works will necessarily make the ability to do it well suddenly disappear, just as I also do not think that “knowing how something works” will necessarily make the ability to do it suddenly appear – unless you conclude, a prori, that if someone plays well they “know how something works”.  (The latter cannot be the sense that this phrase is intended, because f it were, it would mean nothing unto itself and, therefore, add no explanation of why one plays well.)

If someone already does something very well, why would they then want to “know how it works”?  - perhaps so he/she could then “teach” someone else?  But if this knowledge is necessary for beautiful playing, the teacher must ALREADY “know how it works” - so he/she should be completely satisfied only in playing well and seek no further “knowledge”.
 
I think playing the piano is very different than fixing a car, but I think playing a piano is very similar to driving a car. 

I don’t think that playing the piano is similar to fixing a piano, either, and no matter how well a person plays the piano, and how many books that person has read about playing the piano, and how much that person knows about human anatomy, there’s still a very good chance that this person won’t also be able to fix and maintain a piano.

The brilliant physician, who is also an amateur piano technician, can “know everything about how a piano and the human body works” and still not be able to play a single piece on a piano.  . 

I did not have to “know (in a book-learning, teacher-”taught”, I-can-describe-every-muscle-I’m-moving-as-I-play sense) how something works” when I started to hear, talk, see and walk.  Once again, in the sense in which that phrase must be understood, TO THIS DAY I do not “know how” my hearing, speaking, talking, and walking “work”.  What I DO know is that I simply did them after being with my parents 24 hours a day for the very early part of my life.  (To paraphrase B. F. Skinner – Children learn to speak well and grammatically correctly long before “knowing the rules of grammar”.)

Later, as a young person, I threw a baseball a great distance and drove an automobile (at the age of eight; not on the road) by merely watching my parents, and I learned many other things by watching other people without  receiving any “formal” (you know what I mean) lessons for any of this, nor did I have to read any “how to” books. 

So what is it, exactly, that the brilliant physician/technician does not “know about” playing the piano, while I, on the other hand, can hear, speak, see and walk while “knowing nothing about” these acts?

I believe that the behavior of playing the piano is “generated” by exactly the same means as those “natural” behaviors and should be learned in exactly the same way – by emulation of a “role model”. 

The fact that I was - to severely understate it - strongly influenced by Abby Whiteside, is, rather than an endorsement for “knowing how something works”, a denunciation of everything that I had been taught before, and (from what I read on this forum) is still being “taught” and advised to poor souls who are endeavoring to play the piano.

With very little said and read, I believe that by merely watching another person learn and play piano pieces well, a person can  him/herself learn to do the same.  I am CERTAIN that if I had had such a role model, that I would have learned “what is required” to play the piano in an eternity less of time.

Like the abilities I mentioned above, people do not have to “know how things work” to play brilliantly, and, in fact, just as in learning a “difficult” piano piece, as more and more verbal and written attention is paid to the “details”, the less likely is a successful outcome.

So, yes, just as in learning the “natural” behaviors of talking, etc., a “gut approach” (imagination in emulating a role model) in learning to play the piano will be more effective than years of study and lessons in what other people have to say and write ad nauseum about piano playing, and decades of  another’s comments, criticism and observation of your own.  In fact, I would also say that the student’s mere knowledge of this fact will help produce a more satisfactory outcome than years of “study”. 

Even in an ideal world, however, just as baseball pitchers are “ranked” in the baseball world, some people will speak, hear, walk, talk and  play the piano “better” than others, but if everyone were to play the piano as well as they hear, speak, see and walk, that would be more than satisfactory - unlike this one, where good players are a relative rarity.

Attention all students of the piano!,

Look around you. 

What do you observe about the “world” of piano playing?   

Do you observe that your friends are successful in their endeavor to play the piano? 

What do you see happen to their excitement of music as they proceed in their “music educations”? 

What is by far the most common outcome of that education?

How would you rate the performance of the “education system” in producing excellent piano players and people who continue to love music?

How many people that you know continue to play the piano after their “educations”?

If you think everything’s hunky dory in the piano world, then stop reading right now and run to the keyboard!  Otherwise, keep on reading.

What your endeavor to play the piano needs is a ROLE MODEL, not a “teacher”, another book, more study and analyses.  If you want to learn a piece of music, find a person who plays it beautifully and use your entire body - as they use theirs - to COPY WHAT THEY DO! 

If you must have a teacher, find one that agrees with the “emulation” philosophy of learning, and is willing to do most of the playing when you interact with him/her. 

Remember, YOU are the model’s customer!   Know what you want “going in”, and be sure to ask for it.  Communication is the key.

If possible, sit or stand next to the performer and try to learn their rhythm as they play, and keep your attention more focused on the rest of their body rather than just their hands and fingers.   Once again, communicate what you want to your model.

If possible, make a video of the performance so that you can play it often while trying to learn the piece on your own between “performances”.  Do not be satisfied with a once-a-week, “pay-me-and-leave-me” style of “education”.

Do not attach too much importance to what is said or written by the model (performer).  Do what they DO, rather than what they SAY about the performance.

At first, learn pieces by ear and in an outlined, but still rhythmic, fashion.  DO NOT begin an intensive study of standard notation until AFTER learning “how to play the piano” (the understanding of the necessity of using the entire body).  The necessarily slow, stodgy, thoughtful behavior which learning standard notation cultivates, greatly inhibits learning the particular “dance on the piano” which is required for each piece.

Be prepared to fail and be frustrated at first, but be absolutely certain that with enough observation and emulation of the model, “it will come”.  Don’t be afraid to use your body in any way, shape, or form that will EASILY produce the desired result – the more imaginative, the better.  Keep watching that model for clues as to how to dance.

BELIEVE IN YOUR OWN INNATE ABILITY, IMAGINATION, AND THE “EQUIPMENT” ALREADY IN YOUR POSSESSION – THEY ARE ALL YOU WILL EVER NEED.
.
As I’ve just said, reading is a very poor substitute for a playing role model, but if you are desperately looking for “something” to lead you forward toward brilliantly playing the piano, you just may find some inspiration in my other posts here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,1808.0.html

and here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5573.msg54956.html#msg54956

and you will certainly find it in the writings of Abby Whiteside.

[xvimbi]

xvimbi,

Yes, I realized that your post was primarily about the issue of pain or injury and how it should be dealt with.  I quoted the parts of your post that interested me and which I thought applied to m1469’s original post, and I’m sorry if I used them for a purpose which you had not yourself intended – especially if you disagree with the “point” I was trying to make with them.  From the nature of your last paragraph, I guess maybe you did, but I liked what you said, nonetheless. (“Man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest” - it’s so true.)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts . I must say, however, that I do completely agree with them. First, in the above paragraph you said that you realized that my desire to acquire and dispense knowledge about the inner workings of piano playing is primarily aimed at fixing things, but then you are switching back to questioning whether knowledge is useful for learning how to play the piano. I maintain my opinion that knowledge is beneficial, but may not be necessary.

There is much to say about what you wrote, but I would like to restrict my comments to one aspect:

Attention all students of the piano!,

...

What your endeavor to play the piano needs is a ROLE MODEL, not a “teacher”, another book, more study and analyses.  If you want to learn a piece of music, find a person who plays it beautifully and use your entire body - as they use theirs - to COPY WHAT THEY DO! 

If you must have a teacher, find one that agrees with the “emulation” philosophy of learning, and is willing to do most of the playing when you interact with him/her. 

...

Do not attach too much importance to what is said or written by the model (performer).  Do what they DO, rather than what they SAY about the performance.

Frankly, I don't think this is a good approach at all. The reason being simply that what works for one person may not work for another person. If you choose Glenn Gould as a role model, you'll end up severely injured in a very short time. The same with Rachmaninoff. If you copy Bronfman while you are a lightweight, you'll end up in trouble, and so on.

Simply copying someone else, IMO, is more dangerous than trying to learn from books. A teacher is not somebody who sits there, plays and gets copied by his students. A teacher is somone who interactively works with a student to overcome the student's problems, not his own problems with the hope that they also solve the student's problems.

It is impossible to figure out the movements a pianist makes from watching him. How can one emulate something that one cannot reliably register in the first place?

[rc]

That's an interesting post Herve, I hadn't looked at it quite from that perspective before, thanks.

I do believe that many can learn very well intuitively. Some naturally know to find the easiest way to do something and have the kind of imagination to find a very effective way of playing. Some believe in 'no pain no gain' and one day their hands explode, oops. As I'm reading concepts explained in writing I'm sometimes amazed at the effeciency of motion I came up with for the first few pieces I learned, when I was completely ignorant.

I wouldn't go so far as to discount all the books/videos/posts. They're all based on general solutions that are 'natural' to our anatomy as it relates to the keys. I look at it as accumulating ideas, feeding your imagination to come up with effective solutions. The way I figure, it can't do any harm so long as you keep the spirit of ease as your objective. Sometimes it's a little tempting to continually analyse just how you're doing something, when it already works just fine. Becoming overanalytical can become a problem. I know more than a few people who're constantly fixing things that aren't broken (breaking them in the process, heh).

I do like to see how other pianists do things though. A lot can be learned in seeing how it looks when a certain passage is played with ease. I get a lot of ideas from recording TV programs featuring pianists. You can watch it over and over, and there are often close-ups and different camera angles... Since I can't see many live performances.

A combination of intellectualization and imitation works well.

[xvimbi]

I think we need to separate carefully a couple of issues, namely whether it is important or helpful for teachers to know about anatomy and proper movements, and then whether it is important or helpful for students to know about anatomy and proper movements. The previous few posts were focussed on the student, or generally, somebody who is simply playing the piano. And they were rather focussed on sound production and devloping musicality, it seems. This is not at all where I think knowledge of the basics is important. Instead, teachers and students should know about the basics for the following reasons:

Teachers: The role of teachers is to guide students and help them play the piano. Students must do so in a healthy way. A teacher must prevent students from doing the wrong movements. Very few students, and not a whole lot of experienced pianists, would realize when they are doing wrong movements. The last thing a teacher needs is students to get injured, because some basic anatomical concepts were misunderstood. A teacher also must help a student to heal from injuries.

Students: Just by spending time on this forum, it looks to me that most students do not bother getting aquainted with anatomy until they get injured. There were quite a few examples of students having had a very relaxed attitude towards the basics, and a few months later they were begging for advice about how to retrain. Only when injured do most pianists take some time to read up on proper movements. This, to me, is ludicrous. Most, if not all, of those injuries could have been prevented if one had the proper knowledge.

It is this area where I believe one should derive the impetus to get aquainted with anatomy. Proper movements are a very basic aspect of the human body. Knowing about them will not necessarily make us a better pianist, although in most cases it indeed will, because one can more readily recognize what effortless movements are and what inefficient movements are. It definitely will not make us a worse pianist.

What it will make us, however, is a healthy pianist. We will be able to prevent injuries much more efficiently, and we will recover much faster once we have some.

That is the whole purpose.

[m1469]

I'm feeling fairly overwhelmed 

[m1469]

celticqt :

I recently read a book on the Alexander technique, and while not planning to take classes or study with a teacher, implementing some of those principles has helped me release tension while playing, especially in my arms and back. I haven't used any of those ideas with my students yet, although I do emphasize relaxation in general with them. I think most of what I do is intuitive, and I don't want to mess with it too much.

Yes, these are the exact things I have been concerned about.  I do often take into consideration how my fingers, hands, wrists, arms, neck, etc. etc. are feeling.  I have made a point to be much more aware of these things in practice, at least I have made a point of recognizing when I am getting tense.  And then, in learning new movements for a new pieces, I ALWAYS pay the most attention to how it feels to be playing it and whether I am finding comfort or not.  But, I too have very much relied on intuition for this and have not wanted to mess around too much with it.  But, I am realizing right now that, perhaps what I will discover are simply ways of naming some things that I have been doing, and of course I am expecting to find new things too.

I can recommend another book, since you're in a reading mood. It's called Anxiety and Musical Perfomance by Dale Reubart -- a very insightful and well-thought-out book that helped me put some things in perspective.

Thank you very much for this book recommendation, I will add it to the list... he he

Oh by the way m1469......I have been working on that Schumann I was telling you about before for about four hours and for the first time I'm actually memorizing as I practice. It's Wonderful!

Well, this seems like happy news.  I like happy news

Thank you for your response  .





ramseytheii :

I don't know the books you are getting, except the Sandor, which I found interesting but honestly at the time of little help.

Did you find that the information sunk in over time ?  Or has it not been all that long since you read them?

But a lot of this depends on if are minds are ready to process all this information about what we are doing with ourselves!! And, if we can relate some weird abstract information, which it always is, to an actual inner feeling.

Well, even though I got overwhelmed, I feel ready to at least try to process this information.  And, I am really glad you mentioned this bit about relating weird abstract informations to actual inner feelings.  This makes sense to me, so I will look for that because I know I have already been doing some of this stuff.  Hey, now I am getting excited, actually

I've also read Basic Principles by Josef and Rhosina Lhevinne; the Giesking book (can't recall the title); From the Pianist's Bench by Boris Berman; and the now hard-to-find Charles Cooke. I found most help in the ideas how to practice, not from any physical descriptions.

I do have "Basic Principles in Pianoforte Playing" by the Lhevinnes, though I have not read it yet.  I also have "Piano Technique" by Gieseking and Leimer.  I have not truly read that one yet either, as I have not felt ready.  I will look for the other.

But there came a time when I needed some physical help, I was able to manage a lot of repertoire without knowing how to do this or that, but some things I couldn't even approach. I could only play two chopin etudes ofr instance: op 25 nos 1 and 2 ! And those not so so well. When I learned more things (really learned!) about how the body and the keyboard work together, new worlds opened up for me. I am trying to say you shouldn't be so worried about the millipede syndrome. Because for me the knowledge didn't stop me from doing anything, rather, when I became stuck somewhere, I activated the knowledge to find a solution, where before I could find none. I don't advise, if you learn something about the hand doing this or that, or th eelbow, to try it out in whatever passage. Wait until you (or a student) reaches that place where no amount of inner listening, or imaginative pictures, seems to work, then apply that knowledge!

Okay, this makes perfect sense to me.  I like what you say about waiting until it reaches a point of needing something more than what I have been doing all along to get myself around a passage, because it allows the freedom of intuition still.. that's very smart.

Also some people sem to be afraid that once they know "how" to play piano their instinct for playing will proportionaly decrease. For me this has not been true and I don't find any less satisfaction now, only more. For me the more I learned about how the body and keyboard worked together, the more I was amazed at all the music that was such beautiful music, and fit so beautifully on the piano! It actually increased the mystery for me. How could Chopin, for instance, come up with 24 etudes, all sounding totally different, representing so many characters, in so many different keys, and have them all be ultimately ipanistic ?! It reminds me of what James huneker said of Chopin op.10 no.7 , 'Were ever Beauty and Duty so mated in double harness?'

Okay, he he, now your description has increased the mystery for me.  I guess I am realizing that this study and learning does not need to exclude imagination, nor does it need to be dry.

I say go for it and read read read!

Walter Ramsey

Thank you very much for your encouragement, Walter Ramsey.

m1469

[m1469]

xvimbi,

I have so far watched this thread from the background...

I am a bit disappointed by the rather sparse discussion about this issue. I am also disappointed that, apparently, not many pianists think knowing about the basics of the human playing apparatus is a worthwhile endeavor. It almost looks like most people seem to be all too eager to go out and buy five more Rach3 recordings to find out what section pianist X is playing in which way, or to find the fastest performance of a Liszt etude.

Well, maybe this stuff is just not as interesting seeming to some people as it is to you.  And, maybe it just does not come as naturally for some as it does for somebody like you, so perhaps that mixed together plays into a more passive approach to this subject for many people.  It is a very big subject, it seems to me, and perhaps some people even share similar apprehensions as have I.

Most will know that I am a stern believer that understanding one's tools and knowing how they work makes one a better craftsman. All this is not necessary up to a certain level, but beyond, it is vital. Anyway, one can't force people.

Well, something that strikes me about what you say here is in regarding the playing apparatus as "tools" and understanding these better leading to better craftsmanship.  I have been intrigued by woodturning in the last several years and have tried my hand at it a number of times.  What I enjoy about it is this piece of wood, which has a natural grain, curls, smell, and colour goes on the lathe, and there becomes a motion to it that I will say is similar to me as is music in motion, then one handles the chisels to carve out shapes.  This particular tool is fairly easy to understand, but I think that if I, perhaps, can de-personalize my apparatus a little, and think of my body merely as a tool which will help me to carve out sound, this could really be helpful.

There is one aspect that I'd like to mention that hasn't come up so far, and that I think is important for teachers: sooner or later, a student will come and complain about some pain. The teacher is usually the first person who is confronted with this issue. It is crucial for a teacher to provide proper guidance in these instances, for various reasons. It almost breaks my heart when people write in here saying that they are in severe pain, and all they get from their teachers is a shrug.

Yes, okay.  A big part of the reason I am doing this is because of my students, not just me (I know you are addressing a bigger popluation than just me.. he he, but I just want you to know that I personally feel a response to what you are saying).  I have a student whom is quite mature and talks often about what strength she is lacking and what she cannot do because of that.  She explains to me that "when you get older..." and I will admit, I do not know how to help her with that.  For one, I don't know how much of it is actual vs mental (I personally believe almost everything is mental, complete with physical manifestations) because I don't actually know about the body.  Secondly, I don't have a clue how to help her involve certain muscles more, and I know that even if she is mentally placing limits on herself, it may help to ease those if I knew what to tell her in a way she is receptive to.  And, I can see how this would be with those whom are injured as well.

First, the injury could have been caused by what the teacher has been teaching. That's clearly the worst scenario, but it happens, because one can't really now what works for one person and what doesn't without having extensive experience.

Yes, I certainly want to avoid this.  However, I wonder if it is truly avoidable ?  I mean, that's one of my original questions, I think, is if this knowledge has actually prevented injury.

Second, a teacher should direct the student to get proper medical attention, if necessary. I would almost urge teachers to seek out specialists in their area, so that when the issue comes up, they have someone that they can send the student to.

This is very good advice, thank you, I will do this.

Third, once an injury has been properly diagnosed, the teacher is the one who needs to help the student retrain.

I would not have thought this clearly on it, had you not mentioned it.  Okay.

Third, take a couple of students and work through those books together. I would assume, some adult students would be perfectly open to that idea. It's always best to get immediate feedback when acquiring new know-how.

This also, is a great suggestion, thanks.

Teachers have a lot of responsibility towards their students. They not only must help their students to overcome hurdles, but also prevent them from crashing right through them.

Actually, I am really taking this to heart.  Thanks.



m1469 

[m1469]

Herve,

m1469,
Have you forgotten something?

Well, yes, actually.  But, you are reminding me, and I think I do need to remember what I felt then, because I think it is probably valuable in this whole package.  Thanks for reminding me of it




rimv2 :

The martial artist's cycle of learning:

"Before I began studying martial arts, a punch was a punch and a kick was a kick.

While I was learning martial arts, a punch was no longer a punch and a kick no longer a kick.

When I mastered martial arts, a punch a punch and kick was a kick."

Juss gonna leave it at that.

This is actually quite wonderful and very apt in my mind.  I had started thinking similarly to this just before you posted this, and then you posted it and my thoughts about it became more defined.  I suppose there is a process, and I realize that all of the new things I will learn will simply get added to a pool that seems like intuition to me now.  Eventually, all of this information I will read will get digested and will be ready to be called on when needed.  Probably it will become intuitive.  Thanks.



Bernhard :

As for my knowledge in these areas, it was acquired like most knowledge is: through classes with more knowledgeable people, through reading, through being curious and investigative, through observing and experimenting.

I suppose that's what I am embarking on.

But above all, I dislike tradition and I am of the firm belief that there is no end to improvement, so I am always on the look out for ways to improve what I do/know. I am particularly intolerant and impatient with the authority fallacy (“So and so is an authority. Therefore if s/he said it must be true). Ideas should always stand by themselves, although sometimes some people express ideas with great felicity. If so, it is perfectly valid to quote them, not because they are authorities, but because they made an idea stand on particularly firm ground.

I suppose this certainly sets the precedent for inquiry, experimentation, and realization.  There are no short cuts for anyone, I guess. 

m1469

[m1469]

lostinidlewonder :

There is no way one could write text or shoot photographs to demonstrate exactly how one should physically play the piano in the most efficient manner possible and producing the desired sound. It just cannot be done in a way which would help every single person studying piano. But we can make generalisations which act as a guide.

What to me seem to be most important when trying to improve physical action at the piano is understanding how we actually make physical changes to our hands to encourage efficient energy transfer to the keys. This is usually done by asking, "Does this passage feel comfortable when I play?" I always ask a student who has trouble with a section which notes causes the discomfort and work from there how we go about controlling it. The thing is, different notes give different problems to different people, this is something which is hard to address in a book.

This all makes a lot of sense and, for me, further drives home the fact that technique is so individual and personal.

When one is over obsessive about making everything they play automatic and totally effortless they will invest a huge amount of time on one piece to achieve it. But I think there needs to be restraint for the developing student because I find slowing your progress in repertoire memorisation can be more damaging to your piano development than having inefficiencies in your technique. I find many inefficiencies in our playing can be ironed out with a developing repetiore, but eventually we have to consider efficiency closely as repetiore increases in complexity.

This is a very interesting point.  I used to concentrate intently on one larger work, and struggle my way through.  I was determined to perfect this one piece until I moved onto any others.  These days, I think I prefer to get some kind of foundation, basically, for each piece, from which I know it will grow with time and my investigating other pieces, even if I don't touch that particular piece for a while. 

I really find that best, most efficient physical action at the piano isn't so stressed early on in piano playing. But when you play more advanced pieces, an inefficient procedure at the keyboard can translate into bad playing. You can get away with inefficiency with easier piece, you can even practice inefficiently and control it in harder pieces, but to really improve your piano technique and to preserve your piano playing future you have to have a close relationship with the EFFORTLESS touch at the keyboard. Someone who plays inefficiently for 30 years will most probably not be able to physically control the inefficiency in their later years.

Well, this leads me to think along the lines of the difference between somebody being able to achieve a certain thing vs somebody who struggles with the "same thing" is perhaps greatly a matter of efficiency and the ability one may have to harness it.

Thanks.


pnorcks,

IMO, when you are learning how to move efficiently with the aid of a teacher or with any of these books, it will only hinder your music making abilities if you do not listen to the sounds being produced by these movements. Let's say, for example, you are reading the section of Fink's book on "joggle movement," and you are in the process of learning it. If you thoroughly ingrain the joggle movement kinesthetically, but not aurally, you won't be able to effectively execute this movement so that it makes "musical" sense in the context of a piece. So, it is all about linking kinesthetic sensation to aural image. If the pianist strives towards this goal, s/he will be able to incorporate these "efficient" movements into his/her technique.

Yes, okay, this is similar to what ramsey was mentioning earlier about connecting these things to inner feelings.  I suppose though, in what you are talking about, pnorcks, it is almost as though you can actually hear the sound of a motion being put into action ?

Quote

It has been mentioned numbers of times on this forum that one should, hear the sound you are wanting to have produced, and your body will conform, more or less.

This statement presumes that an accurate aural image will activate an appropriate coordination of the body. I believe this is true only if the mind isn't interfering with the process. (The following is all IMO) First, the body map (the mind's image of the internal workings of the body) must be correct. Second, the pianist must realize that the body coordinates best by moving from center to periphery. This means that the fingers, hands, and forearms shouldn't move without moving the upper arm first (as well as a minutae of movement in the shoulder girdle depending on the passage). This is only one aspect of the center to periphery concept, and it'll take too long to explain the rest of it. Third, the mind should be free of mental chatter (fears, doubts, judgments, etc.) so as not to disturb the image of the sound one wants to produce.

he he... I feel like my dreaming may become lucid afterall... LOL.  Again, I am feeling like a de-personalization might be called for and would be helpful here as one develops a map fo teh body.  And to view the entire body as a tool to make music with.   

I have absorbed a lot of content from these three books on the intellectual level, but I haven't successfully implemented many of them in my playing yet. The best approach is to seriously work on the material presented to you as you go along, at the piano (or away from the piano in the case of Fink's Section One). I tend to try and cram as much of this sort of material into my head as possible, and then work on applying it afterwards, but this approach doesn't work so well.

Duly noted.

From Mark, I've learned that mapping the body is important in that if a certain joint isn't mapped, then it tends not to move at all while playing the piano. This means that static muscular activity could be occurring (tension from holding something still). Also, a joint may be mapped, but incorrectly, and this will cause tension due to the inefficient movement.

This is very interesting.  I have not thought much about static muscular activity before.  I suppose the it will be addressed in my reading.  It seems quite important.

Seymour Fink's book as well as Abby Whiteside's books have left a deep impression on me. It is this whole idea about moving from center to periphery that really clicks.

Okay, I know I have heard of moving from center to periphery before, but I have not really consciously thought about it.  Probably I have experienced this in various activities already.  Athletics, including weight lifting, definitely include this concept in training.  So, perhaps I can pull on some of my experiences with athletics, along with pianistically, while exploring this aspect.

It's exciting to know that there is so much reading material out there regarding learning proper movements. I think acquiring a technique free of unneccesary tension and effort is the best way to go (to avoid injury). Now I just have to internalize it all (mentally and physically).

Good luck with your exploration, m1469!

Yes, I am becoming more and more inspired by this subject as I read thoroughly through these posts.  Thank you very much for your response and encouragement.

m1469

[m1469]

Okay, he he.  I still have a couple questions, believe it or not  , somewhat regarding your last post, xvimbi.  But, I can hardly think any more after what was for me an epic response effort.

Thank you very much everyone for what you have contributed to this thread thus far.  As you might see, this subject is quite important to me, as are your reponses.   I am feeling much more inspired at this point than I actually ever thought I would be about this subject... and my books aren't even here yet  !  I am so fascinated by the diversity of responses that have manifested in this thread on this particular subject.  It has helped me to see more clearly the immensity of this subject, as well as the personal nature of it all.

Thanks again,
m1469 

[m1469]

MY BOOKS CAME !!! 

Now, I could not understand what the heck was going on and I thought that the video came with the Fink book ?  Or was it the Sandor... I am confused  :-  But at any rate, I have to buy it separately ?


m1469

[rc]

MY BOOKS CAME !!! 

Now, I could not understand what the heck was going on and I thought that the video came with the Fink book ?  Or was it the Sandor... I am confused    But at any rate, I have to buy it separately ?


m1469

It's the Fink book that has a video, and you have to buy it seperately. Those jerks.
 

[m1469]

.

[celticqt]

m1469, are you getting all these books from amazon.com or a similar website?  I checked the local library system here and they don't carry them.  This discussion had piqued my interest and I'm thinking of poking around for some of these books.....

[m1469]

m1469, are you getting all these books from amazon.com or a similar website?  I checked the local library system here and they don't carry them.  This discussion had piqued my interest and I'm thinking of poking around for some of these books.....

 "yes" 

oh by all means, YES, celticqt, be piqued   I am currently piqued and let me tell you, it's great fun... he he




pssst... hi, would you like to be friends ? 


Look'it how big I can blow a bubble....

[celticqt]

oh by all means, YES, celticqt, be piqued   I am currently piqued and let me tell you, it's great fun... he he

pssst... hi, would you like to be friends ? 

Look'it how big I can blow a bubble....

Hmm, I have a strange vocabulary sometimes, don't I?    

I would love some musically inclined friends.....my SO gets really sick of hearing me blabber about dead composers.  So ~~ yes!    LOL

[Souza]

Okay, thanks rc.  I guess I ought to purchase that .... 

m1469


Here are some links  where I've bought  some book and videos:



Mastering Piano Technique - VIDEO

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?cart=33360574432355988&type=rec&item=4972403


**********************

You and the Piano - Seymour Bernstein - VIDEO

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?cart=33360574432355988&item=3179618



**********************

Thomas Mark - What Every Pianist Needs to Know about the Body: Video Companion

https://www.giamusic.com/scstore/P-5883.html


**********************

PETER FEUCHTWANGER -  Video with the "Piano Exercises"

https://www.peter-feuchtwanger.de/english/startenglish.html

**********************


{}s Pedro

[m1469]

Hmm, I have a strange vocabulary sometimes, don't I?    

I would love some musically inclined friends.....my SO gets really sick of hearing me blabber about dead composers.  So ~~ yes!    LOL

Fabulous ! 

m1469


Here are some links where I've bought some book and videos:



Mastering Piano Technique - VIDEO

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?cart=33360574432355988&type=rec&item=4972403


**********************

You and the Piano - Seymour Bernstein - VIDEO

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?cart=33360574432355988&item=3179618



**********************

Thomas Mark - What Every Pianist Needs to Know about the Body: Video Companion

https://www.giamusic.com/scstore/P-5883.html


**********************

PETER FEUCHTWANGER - Video with the "Piano Exercises"

https://www.peter-feuchtwanger.de/english/startenglish.html

**********************


{}s Pedro

Thank you very much, Pedro.  This is quite helpful to me (and others too, I am sure).  I take it that you trust these sites... anyway, this makes it quite easy for me to order them, thanks again for taking the time to put these together and post them !


m1469 

[xvimbi]

I just wanted to remark that the Mark book can be had from Amazon for $10 less ($20 instead of $30). I haven't checked the other books or the videos.

[m1469]

Wow, how interesting to come back to this thread !  I actually completely forgot about its existence until I saw somebody else reading a thread with such a catchy title  , decided to visit it myself, and realized that I myself had started it !  As I read through the thread, I could not help but notice how much my perspective has changed on these matters, and so I feel inclined to come back and answer my original questions myself, and explain a little bit about what my path has been like since I started this thread.

I have to admit that I have still not read or watched most of what's listed on this thread.  I have actually read very little, that being mainly from the Thomas Mark book, and probably relatively close to the time my books and materials had arrived (over two years ago by now  ).  But, let me tell you what happened.

Recently I have read Walter on the forum, talking about building a fortune with a penny.  I think this is along the lines of what happened for me, though I would not claim to be at a place where I am ready to be done building, by any means (I still plan to milk the resources in this thread, including the posts, for all they are worth  ).  But what happened is that I gained some solid ideas on some very basic things.  For me, I have realized that although I have indeed learned to walk and talk and these things through observation, my concept of them was still different than what it is now; mainly, I see more clearly that these things are what we are physically designed to be doing, and they are NOT things that one must "make" oneself do.  Though I learned to sit and walk long ago, my concept of these things still benefited from better understanding the design and function of our structure.  And if even if sitting, walking and talking were simply decent analogies to piano playing, it would still be helpful for me to mention that aspect.  However, for me now, it all directly relates.

I also had the good fortune to run into somebody knowledgeable and generous, who was willing to share with me some specific techniques.  From there, I had a much more clear idea on how to sit at the piano, and how to move about the piano.  I become so entirely engrossed in this that before I knew it, everything about how I approached my playing had drastically changed (for the better) !  I still consider myself to be on the road of discovery, and I am still excited to learn something new, but my level of confidence within myself is so much different now than it was back then. 

Do you feel this knowledge has "changed" anything for you ?

Yes, it has changed everything for me.  It has changed my playing, it has changed my teaching, it has changed my entire concept of playing the piano.  I can see that "we" are literally built to play the piano, it's not just some privilege for those people whom defy the laws of nature, it is something that we are each built to be capable of doing -- like sitting or walking --  and that includes me. 

If teaching, do you find yourself easily implementing the ideas (perhaps without getting too technical) ?

Yes, it depends on the student, too.  I have a mixed bag of students who need different things at different times.  If we are not addressing technical issues as such, I am using these gems in my everyday association with my students, when I play for them, in hopes that they will have a good example etched into their mental impression of piano playing.

Has your confidence in playing and teaching grown as a result of this knowledge ?

Most definitely .

Have you actually improved in facility as a direct result of this study ?

Without a doubt.

Have you actually avoided injury over the years as a result of this study ?

Thus far, yes.

In the end, do you feel this knowledge is essential ?

As I have explained above, my current "knowledge" is a result of some light reading, somebody actually showing me some specific techniques, and then hoards upon hoards of experimentation, investigation, and deep thinking and processing of my time at the instrument.  And, the ideas have built upon themselves.  As I have gained one concept, more would fall into place.

I have to point out though, that this "knowledge" is not the end unto itself for me.  What I think is essential is not merely the knowledge, but more that I have gained a sense of investigative power (I will call it for now) when something is not feeling right, or if something doesn't sound right.  Years ago I could feel that something was "off" in my playing and I would try as best I could to investigate what was going on, but I would run into dead ends and find myself in tears upon tears with a terrible heart-breaking sense of frustration about my playing.  I didn't understand why things weren't working right, and I couldn't hear or listen right because I was so terribly distracted by the "static" that I was experiencing in my motions.  My perception of sound was so terribly messed up that I had no idea about almost anything (I felt like) !  It's so interesting for me to watch videos of me playing back then !  I can now hear myself playing because I don't have the same physical perception linked to the person that I was back then.  I can hear that I was never truly in the same musical distress that I had perceived myself as being in back then.  I simply had some particulars standing in my way, but the great part is, I could identify now much of what was standing in my way back then, and the even better part is that I have already "fixed" those problems !

So, now when something is not working as I would wish, I can ask myself more specifically why that is ?  And, as I investigate, I discover answers to my problems.  I *never* had this kind of power before, or at least I didn't know it if I did.  This doesn't mean that I currently play everything that I want to play, I am still very much in discovery-mode.  But, I grow in confidence that I can be one of those people, one day, who plays something as though it emanates straight from their soul, without the physique standing in the way, but rather serving completely, the purpose. 

Thanks so much to everyone who put the effort into posting in this thread.  The encouragement was what helped me take the steps on a new path.  And, it has been quite interesting to come back and read through the thread, realizing that I had felt overwhelmed even at the hearty response I got back then, and reading it now as though it were written then for who I am today.   

[slobone]

m1469, that's great that you got good results -- but you don't say with which method! Could you share a few more specifics with us?

[m1469]

Well, I have explained a bit here :

As I have explained above, my current "knowledge" is a result of some light reading, somebody actually showing me some specific techniques, and then hoards upon hoards of experimentation, investigation, and deep thinking and processing of my time at the instrument.  And, the ideas have built upon themselves.  As I have gained one concept, more would fall into place.

What I read was about body mapping, as I mentioned, from Thomas Mark's book.  I learned how to better sit at the instrument, how to better use my body, and once I clearly grasped a couple of concepts, I stopped reading (maybe about the third chapter ?).  However, I don't think you could call that a "method" per se, it was just that I gained a better concept on how we are all built, so I put my build to better use. 

And, somebody showed me forearm rotations, thumb over, a couple of other things, and talked with me about alignment, showing me some basic concepts on this.  These, I would say have more to do with technique than with anything else, though I suppose they have become a "method" of moving around the piano.

My "method" to learning this stuff was actually mainly my own experimentation with the ideas that I gained about posture and these technical aspects of playing.  There have been some things that I have payed very close attention to in order to consciously learn them better, and then sometimes it was just a matter of something not quite working right, or not quite feeling right, and so I would investigate why that might be, and I would always find something that I could fix.  Often when I would fall upon one idea, it brought others with it.  Sometimes I would video record these particular things, sometimes not, and when I would video record I had a chance to watch what was happening in a different way (from a teacher's perspective), and often this would bring about more ideas for me or clarify the ones that I was working on.

I will say that I did a lot of improvising, also.  I am pretty certain that a lot carried over into that, and that during that time I was learning and practicing these things at another level.

I am not sure if this answers your question or not.

[slobone]

Pretty much, I see now that you did mention Thomas Mark's book, only it wasn't clear from the context that that was the method you were talking about. I'll look into it.

[m1469]

Pretty much, I see now that you did mention Thomas Mark's book, only it wasn't clear from the context that that was the method you were talking about.

Yes, you're right, it wasn't clear.  Sorry about that.
 

I'll look into it.

Yes, I think it's probably a good idea for anybody to look a bit more into how our body is built and how it functions.  How our body functions is not a man-made "method" however, and how our body functions at the instrument in a natural way is also not a man made "method" -- if it were not natural, why would we use it ?  What the book (and many other resources) can do is provide you with information on something that is already intact and already exists within you.  It can bring some clarity and shine some light in areas that may need it. 

For me though, I have to say here that I definitely did not get all of my answers from one place, and I can't even say that I got most of them from one place (though some particular things and people have been quite helpful).  And, I suspect the reading alone would not have yielded nearly the results had I not been shown -- around the same time -- those specific technical matters that I mentioned above (and those specific technical matters were very well complimented by what I had read). 

I will reiterate that the majority of my progress took place with my own experimentation, investigation and deep processing of what I was learning and experiencing when applying the ideas I gained.  Without that process, which I would consider the "method" if we want to talk about methods, there is no amount of ideas that would have helped unless somebody walked straight into me and actually made my body and mind do things differently than what they had been doing, and then left my body and mind with some kind of perfect memory of this event (maybe that is exactly what actually happened ).

In any respect, it is a decent read -- but no one thing will answer everything.

[nick]

I own and have read each and every one of the books you list.  I also have a largish collection of older books:  Matthay, Ortmann, Schulz,  etc.  I have read them carefully trying to find out the secret of good technique.  (As you can see, I suffer of a bad case of OCD.)  My experience has been that I cannot learn piano technique from books.  

On the other hand, I have been taken lessons with a member of the Golandsky Institute faculty (a Taubman offshot) for a few months now.  These lessons have  changed completely my approach to the keyboard, but it has been and still is an uphill battle.  For me, the guidance of a real live human being is crucial.

Good luck in your project!

Nyquist,

Just curious what you thought of schultz, i believe the book was something like " the riddle of the pianist's finger". I remember reading it many years ago, thinking this is the answer, he knows. but also realizing what he said was in conflict with reality, the many pianists that play with raised fingers incredibly fast. This is a good example of on paper it looked good, but in reality as Borat would say "not so much."  What say you?

[nyquist]

Nyquist,

Just curious what you thought of schultz, i believe the book was something like " the riddle of the pianist's finger". I remember reading it many years ago, thinking this is the answer, he knows. but also realizing what he said was in conflict with reality, the many pianists that play with raised fingers incredibly fast. This is a good example of on paper it looked good, but in reality as Borat would say "not so much."  What say you?

I never was sure that I was understanding what he meant.  There might be something useful in Schultz's  book but it defeated me.

FWIW, I play  with raised fingers, with a twist:  raising the finger is the active part of the movement, the descent is more or less a passive drop  (or at least that is the way I think of it).  If one thinks of the descent of the finger as a drop (there is some forearm rotation involved), one has to raise the finger to play.  The school of "fingers close to the key" must use an active descent (a press), I guess.

nyquist

[slobone]

I guess I don't raise my fingers. But doesn't that waste motion anyway? You're not really doing anything when your finger is above the surface of the key. Maybe it depends on how solid the action on your piano is. Mine is pretty flabby, it doesn't take much energy to press the key down.

[nyquist]

I guess I don't raise my fingers. But doesn't that waste motion anyway? You're not really doing anything when your finger is above the surface of the key. Maybe it depends on how solid the action on your piano is. Mine is pretty flabby, it doesn't take much energy to press the key down.

I am very leery of engineering logic applied to piano playing, as it is such a complicated activity.  What seems at first sight to be logical, might end up not being the best way.  In the end I believe in what works.  There are many top-flight pianists that play very fast, very accurately, etc., while raising their fingers. For example:

Murray Perahia playing Schubert opus 20 #2

or

Martha Argerich playing Scarlatti

or, a good example of not keeping the fingers, hands, close to the keyboard:

Grigory Sokolov playing Beethoven

or, a pianist I just discovered, Jorge Luis Prats playing Scarbo by Ravel

These videos are "existence proofs" that one can play wonderfully while raising the fingers.  I am not saying that it is the only way. 

nyquist

[slobone]

I guess I'm not really understanding what the terms of the debate are here. Perahia keeps his wrist position high, but his fingertips don't come up much, at least when he's playing legato. Same with Argerich -- I would say she doesn't lift her fingers up much at all, and she's definitely not playing legato. Sokolov does lift his hands quite unnecessarily high off the keyboard, but if that works for him, fine. Or could be doing it for purposes of showmanship. But in this clip where he's playing a more legato piece, he's not that different from the others:

&feature=related

Prats doesn't seem that different from the others. So what are we actually talking about here?

PS Here's an excellent clip of Prats where he demonstrates his technique:

[nyquist]

Prats doesn't seem that different from the others. So what are we actually talking about here?

Sorry to be unclear.  I find similarity in the technique of these players: they raise their fingers high (my impression) even when playing legato.

nyquist

[slobone]

Sorry to be unclear.  I find similarity in the technique of these players: they raise their fingers high (my impression) even when playing legato.

nyquist

Raise the fingers or keep the wrist high and lower the fingers from there?

[nyquist]

Raise the fingers or keep the wrist high and lower the fingers from there?

The finger tip is at some distance (say 7/16" :-) ) from the key surface right before playing the note.

nyquist