Shostakovich - Fugue Op.87 N.1

[quasimodo]

See below, I replaced hte recording.

[pianistimo]

what an incredibly difficult piece and you played it!  my only crit would be that on the main beats you need a fast barely-there (not raised much) pedal to clear out some of the sound.  sometimes it's a quick two step (quick two raises ) if it's really muddled. 

pedalling is and was my biggest nemesis.  i am now listening for clear playing and pedalling in my own playing - so please know i'm not trying to be critical.  i love the fugue tempo and the contemplative feel!

[quasimodo]

what an incredibly difficult piece and you played it!  my only crit would be that on the main beats you need a fast barely-there (not raised much) pedal to clear out some of the sound.  sometimes it's a quick two step (quick two raises ) if it's really muddled. 

pedalling is and was my biggest nemesis.  i am now listening for clear playing and pedalling in my own playing - so please know i'm not trying to be critical.  i love the fugue tempo and the contemplative feel!

Don't worry, my point in posting recordings here is to get critics, so I am quite thankfull you gave your comments. Actually, I totally agree that my pedalling is not correct, this piece is a hell to pedal. Possibly it requires a Sustenuto Pedal (I wouldn't know, I have never experienced that device and don't have one on my upright!).  And, to be honest, I didn't work enough on that specific aspect of pedalling this fugue . For the moment I am without piano nor keyboard to work on, so I guess I will have to re-learn the whole thing like from scratch when I have one .

About the piece, though it's a tricky-fingering 4 voice counterpoint, I wouldn't say it's "incredibly difficult"  . But as we know each person has his/her own "difficult". Now, I spent months before having all the notes, so maybe you're right after all  .

[m1469]

I, also, am working on this fugue.  It is absolutely beautiful music.


Overall, I do appreciate your tempo, and am convinced of it.   Your forward motion is great and you carry your lines very well, however, it does not breathe.  I feel out of breath listening to it. 

Also, in the 39th full measure (not counting the very first pick-up measure) you are playing an "A" instead of an "F" (it should be an "F") on the "and of 2".  I only mention this because it sounds like you have learned it that way.

Whenever you get your piano, it would be fun to hear the prelude as well. 

Thanks for sharing,

m1469

[BoliverAllmon]

I find the recording very nice. congrats on learning it.

[quasimodo]

m1469, I like the idea of making you get out of breath just by depressing some keys  . Music is magical! Thanks for your comments.

Thank you too Bolliver.

[m1469]

m1469, I like the idea of making you get out of breath just by depressing some keys  .

Well, I had a suspicion you might appreciate that 

[quasimodo]

A new take, I look after commentaries about the pedalling. Is it still too blurry?

[m1469]

Dear Quasimodo,

You fixed the note  .   Most of what I said before is still true regarding breathing and those things.  Also, where is the climax ?     

The performance just doesn't really say much to me and it sounds more as if you are trying to match a recording than having it come from your own heart.

[quasimodo]

Dear Quasimodo,

You fixed the note  .   Most of what I said before is still true regarding breathing and those things.  Also, where is the climax ?     

The performance just doesn't really say much to me and it sounds more as if you are trying to match a recording than having it come from your own heart.

Could you be more specific? Somehow, your comment is rather re-assuring, I'm not that much into sentimental interpretation, and Shostakovitch's music especially does not tolerate sentimentalism nor romantism. It's more about harshness, sarcasm and sometimes fury.
However, one day after, I find many technical weaknesses in my playing, mostly the crappy voicing, high register too much emphasized. Tempo is also a little bit too fast maybe.

[m1469]

Could you be more specific? Somehow, your comment is rather re-assuring, I'm not that much into sentimental interpretation, and Shostakovitch's music especially does not tolerate sentimentalism nor romantism. It's more about harshness, sarcasm and sometimes fury.
However, one day after, I find many technical weaknesses in my playing, mostly the crappy voicing, high register too much emphasized. Tempo is also a little bit too fast maybe.

Sure.  First of all, I in no way said that it was not sentimental or romantic enough, I specifically said that it said nothing to me.  So that means it did not say anything about harshness nor sarcasm, neither did it say anything about fury.  When I said that it does not speak from your heart, I meant that it does not come across to me as your ideas, but rather somebody else's that you have heard on recording.

Also, I am not trying to re-assure you, nor am I trying to discourage you.

[zheer]

A new take, I look after commentaries about the pedalling. Is it still too blurry?

 

   Very nice.

[ingagroznaya]

I specifically said that it said nothing to me.  So that means it did not say anything about harshness nor sarcasm, neither did it say anything about fury.  When I said that it does not speak from your heart, I meant that it does not come across to me as your ideas, but rather somebody else's that you have heard on recording.

Also, I am not trying to re-assure you, nor am I trying to discourage you.

m1469, when you have  nothing to say, it is always wise to be quiet.
Yet you just keep talking and talking and talking....    Specifically when you have nothing   to say. Can't you shut up for a moment already with all your "clever" stuff?

[m1469]

m1469, when you have  nothing to say, it is always wise to be quiet.
Yet you just keep talking and talking and talking....    Specifically when you have nothing   to say. Can't you shut up for a moment already with all your "clever" stuff?

Ms Inga, I suppose you have relieved yourself of a modest bit of tension with your delightful sentiments here.  Congratulations on your fine display

[ingagroznaya]

It was a genuine suggestion, m1469.

You seems to post so much pathos on this forum...Although it helps me to relieve my tension, because your nonsense obviously makes me laugh, I do not want to take too much advantage of the situation. I'm not a terrible person, m1469, otherwise I would. I speak directly from my heart. Take it easy on your "clever". Sincerely. I meant that it does not come across to me as your ideas, but rather somebody else's that you have heard on recording.

Also, I am not trying to re-assure you, nor am I trying to discourage you in general. It's up to you to interpret my words any way you wish.

[m1469]

hee hee... okay, Inga.  For the most part, I have not found a single reason to take anything you say on my behalf seriously enough to consider it a suggestion that is truly worth my time and energy.   But who knows ?  As with you, someday I, too, may change my mind .

[ingagroznaya]

hee hee... okay, Inga.  For the most part, I have not found a single reason to take anything you say on my behalf seriously enough to consider it a suggestion that is truly worth my time and energy.   But who knows ?  As with you, someday I, too, may change my mind .

Any of you remember Bernhard's last quote? It was a good one. I think it was Bernhard's 

[ingagroznaya]

Hell with saving the world.... Back to my taxes... I have no chicken, nor a chicken husband...
Anyone wants to go to Moscow with me? I want a Russian guy. Sorry to steer off the subject, Quasimodo. I want a real BIG, dumb, good looking husband, who knows how to cook. Someone like m1469. Shostakovich was Jewish, who never lived on the farm.
This is not my thread.
I want a guy who knows how to breed chickens or at least make his own kilbasa.

[lostinidlewonder]

A beautiful piece, I teach this to one of my students and have a hard time working out fingering even for things which seem so simple! Try playing it without pedal it will reveal much more I think but well done.

[ingagroznaya]

Hal - ley- lu - ya!  Someone is positive here.

[ingagroznaya]

Dear Quasimodo,

You fixed the note  .   Most of what I said before is still true regarding breathing and those things.  Also, where is the climax ?     

The performance just doesn't really say much to me and it sounds more as if you are trying to match a recording than having it come from your own heart.

Climax is in your bed?
m1469, your married sex life must really suck. CLIMAX on Shestacovich, before you'll get on Quasi bum. Really!

You are so bloody boring, you have no idea.

[pianistimo]

ingagroznya,  once again - you shock me with your bluntness.  you seem to be the only person that knows how to makem1469really mad.  unless i've had some effect.  but, it's all bob's fault. 

are you SURE that you andm1469are not one and the same and you are just picking a fight?  i mean - you seem like the other half of maylas spit personality.  i was thinking last night that if i somehow ended up in jail - i would be cowering over in the corner with the likes of you or mayla.

ok.  nonetheless - the best place to find a big dumb looking husband is australia.  you know, surfing and beaching.  maybe a construction worker part-time?  tanned.  big muscles.  the only thing is you still ahve taxes to pay.  what would this do?  and, you'd have to be checking on him all the time.

now, if you found a man who played the piano - it would be reasonable to just go ahead and pay the taxes yourself.  but, then, the man wouldn't be dumb.  so, that kind of nixes the idea. 

[quasimodo]

you seem like the other half of maylas spit personality.  

Is it a mistype or a pun  ?

[pianistimo]

i accidentally typed it, then i thought 'hey, that sounds ok after all.'  but, really i do sense two very different types of personalities in ingagrozyna and mayla.  i knowm1469is 'deep' but ingagroznya is too, in another less philosophical and more pragmatic way.  i thinkm1469can be very pragmatic,t oo.  that's why i'm very confused.  they both live in russia.  now why ism1469mad at bob?

back to shosti.  lostinidlewonder always seems to hit the nail on the head.  your piano holds the sustain really well, so you CAN get away with connecting the notes with your fingers (thru fingering).  try it a couple times and only with the really hard to reach notes (unless you get some fingering from lostinidle on those spots) do a quick connecting pedal.

i had to do this with brahms op. 118 #2 and it was very difficult at first.  i thought my teacher was way off and wrong wrong.  but, then after i did it - it sounded 100 times better.  i started giving it a little pedal here and there - but not continuously through the entire piece.

[quasimodo]

back to shosti.  lostinidlewonder always seems to hit the nail on the head.  your piano holds the sustain really well, so you CAN get away with connecting the notes with your fingers (thru fingering).  try it a couple times and only with the really hard to reach notes (unless you get some fingering from lostinidle on those spots) do a quick connecting pedal.

i had to do this with brahms op. 118 #2 and it was very difficult at first.  i thought my teacher was way off and wrong wrong.  but, then after i did it - it sounded 100 times better.  i started giving it a little pedal here and there - but not continuously through the entire piece.

I tried this, but the problem is that it makes it sound weird, I mean, there are whole parts where it's leap after leap after leap so you have the pedal almost stuck on the floor for 3-4 bars. Then, playing it dryer on the other parts just make the whole thing not homogeneous. The sostenuto pedal would be the best.

[pianistimo]

keep practicing it both - for some time.  it didn't come easily in my brahms either.  i have smaller hands and large leaps were a problem too.  the speed can increase between the notes - even when you are trying to keep an even pace throughout the phrase.  i think the misnomer is that your hands HAVE to be going at an even pace to match the tempo.  but you can do 'zip' from bottom note to top in those large reaches and maximize speed so that some notes that are large chords, even, can sound connected.  once all that work is done - then you go back and re-add pedal very very sparingly.

the sound just is better.  i can't explain it.  it's the difference between VERY clean and clear and a little bit muddy.

[m1469]

Climax is in your bed?
m1469, your married sex life must really suck. CLIMAX on Shestacovich, before you'll get on Quasi bum. Really!

You are so bloody boring, you have no idea.

Ms Inga, I will say that you are reaching pretty low to bring in this kind of non-sense... it is obvious that you are feeling quite desparate by now. 

I will congratulate the "three" of you though, Inga, pianistimo and quasimodo, I will admit that I am feeling a bit down about all of this as well as some other things in my life (good timing I guess... but hey, if you stick with it long enough, you are bound to get me at a weak point) and it feels personal.  You have achieved what you set out to achieve, I believe.  Again, congratulations.

[nanabush]

Excellent, well played!  Inga, take this b*tch fight somewhere else 

[lostinidlewonder]

Regarding the use of the pedal throughout this piece, you can get away with a syncopated pedal (that pedal only to connect notes legato but not to sustain notes), do not let notes overlap one another with the pedal but with the held down fingers instead.

My student has been working on this piece for over half a year and could easily play the piece in a week using the pedal, the great difficulty came when playing it with a legato touch only with the fingers, this I think is the challenge we are faced with and it is only now I can start hearing it being played right when the pedal is removed. With excessive legato from the pedal you literally ruin the sound Shostakovich is trying to present (even though it does sound nice too it isn't what was intended.) The simplicity of sound and the sustaining of notes with the finger is what makes this piece sound absolutely lovely in my opinion.

I never touched this piece prior to teaching it, and I for one found this peice extremely interesting when we consider our fingering. Fingering becomes paramount and extremely difficult when we want to do everything without the pedals help. This really shifts us into a different state, and a very very difficult challenge.

Like Bach WTC, we do not need to bring out this, get louder here or this or that. The notes stand alone and a natural tendancy (to get louder as notes move up the keyboard for example). We make our playing sound fake if we start putting volumes here and there. The same applies for the Shostakovich P+F since I think he is trying to echo Bach in this book.

Some parts just need the pedal, especially if you have small hands. Reaching the the large 10ths later on in the peice can be impossible for most. My student has small hands so he must use the pedal to connect the sound with the large stretches, luckily they don't last long.

What about the tempo of the peice? Why do I always feel like it should be taken slower than how it is usually played? When I play this I play it quite slowly, probably 70% of the recording of this post. I guess everyone has their own ideas.

[quasimodo]

What about the tempo of the peice? Why do I always feel like it should be taken slower than how it is usually played? When I play this I play it quite slowly, probably 70% of the recording of this post. I guess everyone has their own ideas.

Actually, I had the same wondering. The score tempo marking has a contradiction, it says Moderato but the metronome would go your way. Keith Jarrett plays it maybe half the speed, accordingly to the metronome indication. All other performers do it roughly at the speed I chose, more or less 5% maybe.

[ingagroznaya]

they both live in russia.  now why ism1469mad at bob?

Because Bob does not know how to breed chickens or make his own kilbasa? Quick Books is the answer. There was no Quick Books in Russia. Russian m1469? Are you kidding?  How do you do your tax, guys? Seriously. How do you do it with out Quick Books? Am I the last person who got them?

[ada]

Hahaha how does it feel to have your post hijacked by this extraordinary personal attack on the lovely m1469?

To the matter at hand: I'm not mad on this piece as such but I think you play it very proficiently 

[debussy symbolism]

kilbasa?

Do you mean "kalbasa"?

[letters]

wow i really enjoyed this. never heard the piece before either! i think sometimes you hold the pedal a little too much which spoils the clarity at the beginning.