Comparative difficulty of the Chopin Etudes II

[cloches_de_geneve]

The "research project" regarding ratings of the comparative difficulty of the Chopin Etudes enters its second phase. Based on 51 votes, the first poll revealed that the the following 3 Etudes are generally perceived to be the most difficult ones:
1) op 25/6  (rated by 33% as most difficult)
2) op 25/11 (25%)
3) op 10/2 (10%)

The situation is more ambiguous for the other etudes. 10/1, 25/8, and 25/12 have been rated most difficult by more than just 1 individual, but this result could also have come up by chance (see Comparative Difficulty of the Chopin Etudes, Poll, for more details).

In order to arrive at a complete ranking of the Etudes, that is based on many expert ratings rather than on individual opinion, I decided to launch Poll 2. In this new Poll, the Etudes above do not re-appear as they come out quite clearly as the most difficult ones. I also did not include the slow etudes (op 10/3, 10/6, 10/9, 25/7) because their difficulties are of a special kind.

In a few days the rankings for the "intermediate" etudes will be available.

Put in your vote!

[m]

Well, the poll would carry any weight only under one condition--one should play all 27 in order to rank them accurately. Otherwise, it is not fair and is just... blah, blah, blah.

You see, if for example the person has played only one etude, let's say Op.25/12 and had some difficulties with that, it would be very natural to put it as the most difficult.

On the other hand, if the person never played any Chopin etudes, and then bases the judgement on just listening to recordings of Cziffra, Achkenazy, whoever else, or excuse me... Pollini, then what kind of vote is that?

Since I've played only 21 out of 27 (never learnt op.10 ##9, 10, 12, as well as Nouvelles Etudes), I refuse to vote, FWIW.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Of course there might be some distortion in the results for the reasons you mention. At the same time, the fact that the very easy sounding op 10/2 and not dramatically difficult sounding 25/6 come up as among the most difficult testifies to the fact the ratings were not done based on listening, but on actual playing.

[m]

... the fact that the very easy sounding op 10/2 and not dramatically difficult sounding 25/6 come up as among the most difficult testifies to the fact the ratings were not done based on listening, but on actual playing.

I have my doubts on that... mostly due to the fact that only 10% voted for 10/2 and 33% (!) for 25/6.

[cloches_de_geneve]

It seems quite obvious to me that if people had based their ratings on vague difficulty impressions from mere listening, a quite different ranking would have resulted, with etudes such as 10/4, 25/10, 25/12 etc... at the top -- which was not the case.

In addition, 10/2, 25/6 and 25/11, which came out at the top are regularly cited as the most difficult etudes by individual experts and in the literature.

This being said, the evidence of the current survey will be of course be indicative rather than conclusive.

[pianoperfmajor]

Yeah, this is a pretty unscientific, subjective poll.  Obviously there are a few things going on that make it inaccurate, namely that ideally, everyone voting should have played and studied each one to be able to vote.  And that alone lends itself to the fact that each person's technique and such is different and therefore would find different ones more difficult for different reasons.  I suppose that if you get enough people to form a conensus by a fairly wide margain, though, then it could represent a fairly accurate and widespread opinion.

[contrapunctus]

One would need to go through each etude and count and rate all the technical  elements and requirements to play the piece before one could vote. I am not sure that many people have done this, especially me: I would not waste my time on them.

[stevie]

I would not waste my time on them.

indeed, when ones playing is so painfully slow it would take alot of time indeed.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Yeah, this is a pretty unscientific, subjective poll ... I suppose that if you get enough people to form a conensus by a fairly wide margain, though, then it could represent a fairly accurate and widespread opinion.

I agree. As soon as many individuals agree on a certain position, an opinion is no longer "subjective", it becomes "inter-subjective". In terms of philosophy of science, this is as good as it gets in the soft sciences; aiming at establishing an "objective" ranking of the Chopin etudes would be absurd. The finding that almost 70% of the votes went to 3 out of the 24 etudes shows that there is a fair amount of consensus about which of the etudes are the most difficult.

[maxy]

Well, the poll would carry any weight only under one condition--one should play all 27 in order to rank them accurately. Otherwise, it is not fair and is just... blah, blah, blah.

You see, if for example the person has played only one etude, let's say Op.25/12 and had some difficulties with that, it would be very natural to put it as the most difficult.

On the other hand, if the person never played any Chopin etudes, and then bases the judgement on just listening to recordings of Cziffra, Achkenazy, whoever else, or excuse me... Pollini, then what kind of vote is that?

Since I've played only 21 out of 27 (never learnt op.10 ##9, 10, 12, as well as Nouvelles Etudes), I refuse to vote, FWIW.

out of curiosity, which ones did you find "harder"?

[etudes]

for me....op.25 no.8,op.10 no.2

[contrapunctus]

indeed, when ones playing is so painfully slow it would take alot of time indeed.

I am sorry I cannot play as fast as you stevie.

[arensky]

For me, Op.25 #8, "sixths"

[rimv2]

Opus 10 number 3 and number 6 are the hardest of all the etudes.

Any joe brown can play the other etudes and get their character as the notes speak for themselves.

These take hard work to make sound bootyful

[chromatickler]

any chopin etude difficulty poll that yields a result other than 10/2 is simply invalid.

a piece like the 25/6, i have no doubt the legendary sightreaders like richter, libetta, katsaris etc could play it up to speed at first sight. 10/2? not a chance

[stevie]

any chopin etude difficulty poll that yields a result other than 10/2 is simply invalid.

a piece like the 25/6, i have no doubt the legendary sightreaders like richter, libetta, katsaris etc could play it up to speed at first sight. 10/2? not a chance

hahahahhahahahhahahahahahahaha da MART

[pianowelsh]

Everyone has their own view on this topic so its really always going to be inconclusive.  i have read extensively from great teachers books on the subject and they all cite very plausible reasons for why each etudes is 'the most difficult' but noone really knows.  Of course it always depends on your ability and prior expertise too eg. If you have played doubled note studies all your life by czerny and moscheles and moszkowski etc if you come to the doubled thirds etude you will like as not find it fairly straightforward. You may however have a nightmare of a time with op25/12 which many teachers assign as the first etude of chopin to study. I personally think op25/12 has many hidden difficulties which puts it up there with the hardest of them.  There are also certain etudes if you have a small hand that are nigh impossible ie 'doubled 6th and op25/10 and the 6th/3rd combination one from op10 (i forget the number) therefore small handed pianists (which includes most women pianists) may rank these far higher than a predominantly male audience who may find the stretches more comfortable.

[m]

any chopin etude difficulty poll that yields a result other than 10/2 is simply invalid.

a piece like the 25/6, i have no doubt the legendary sightreaders like richter, libetta, katsaris etc could play it up to speed at first sight. 10/2? not a chance

I actually would not judge on "sighreadability" as the main factor. For example, the 25/11 might be much harder to read, but in fact, it is pretty much straight forward etude, ones brain and fingers  "remember" what to do.

The bottom line, any of the Chopin etudes might be whether "comfortable", or basically unplayable, depending on individual strenghts of each individual performer.

If one had a good professional training since childhood and has big enough hands (for such etudes as 10/1 and 11, 25/8 and 10) none of them should give particular troubles.

As for 25/6... once again, if as a kid you have learnt how to play double notes, you should have no particular difficulties there.

The 10/2 indeed stands out as THE MOST difficult one. But its difficulty is in patience of a few years of EVERYDAY 1 hour routine, which BTW, does not guarantee you can play it even then.

Let's put it like this--if you are able to play 10/2 with great control, very quitely, absolutely evenly all the way through, then MOST LIKELY the 25/6 will be piece of cake for you. The other way around might not neccessarily be the case.

But the REAL KILLER is 10/2 right after 10/1! Besides many hours of practicing, the trick is in absolute mental calculation. The good example of lack of one is Lisitza's live recroding.

Having said that, I have one particular etude I never had patience for--25/4. I just never could force myself to sitdown and for sometime work on LH alone to make it 100% accurate. So... I just don't play it in public--big deal.

[musicsdarkangel]

I have my doubts on that... mostly due to the fact that only 10% voted for 10/2 and 33% (!) for 25/6.

10/2 too was much much easier for me than 25/6

op 10 no 2 is the same technique throughout

op 25 no 6 is thirds, yes, but they do all sorts of configurations.... about 3 patterns per page that require totally different fingerings.

[m]

10/2 too was much much easier for me than 25/6

op 10 no 2 is the same technique throughout

op 25 no 6 is thirds, yes, but they do all sorts of configurations.... about 3 patterns per page that require totally different fingerings.

How long have you been working on each? Did you bring each of them to condition suitable for performing in concerts (i.e. with PERFECT control and accuracy, up to tempo, and most of all, making them sound not as etudes, but as beautiful pieces of music)?

[nanabush]

Shouldn't 10/7 be [somewhere] up there?  It's all double notes, but there's a whole bunch of different patterns...

[musicsdarkangel]

How long have you been working on each? Did you bring each of them to condition suitable for performing in concerts (i.e. with PERFECT control and accuracy, up to tempo, and most of all, making them sound not as etudes, but as beautiful pieces of music)?

op 10 no 2, yes, but op 25 no 6 i'm still working on.  It's definitely giving me more difficulty than any of the others..... even the Winterwind, which I once had feeling very good and musical.

[cloches_de_geneve]

It seems that there are two kinds of pianists: The former find 10/2 more difficult than 25/6, the latter find 25/6 more difficult than 10/2. The latter group appears to be slightly larger.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Thank you for participating in the Chopin Etudes Comparative Difficulty Poll II!

As can be seen from the figure, the results are relatively clearcut: After the most difficult triad composed of the etudes 10/2, 25/6 and 25/11, in average, 10/1, 10/4, and 25/12 are perceived to be the second most difficult triad of the Chopin Etudes.

[m]

in average, 10/1, 10/4, and 25/12 are perceived to be the second most difficult triad of the Chopin Etudes.

The idea itself 25/12 made to top 5 makes such a "poll" completely worthless.

[cloches_de_geneve]

There have always been individuals who know better, who prefer to decide for others what is right and wrong, instead of letting others express their opinions and remain open to revise one's preconceptions ...

That 25/12 comes up high does not surprise me that much. I've just heard three live recordings by renowned pianists who played beautifully and accurately through 25/11 just to produce a morrass of wrong notes in 25/12. Going up and down is one thing, going up and down reproducing all notes accurately is yet another -- especially after having played 25/11.

[m]

That 25/12 comes up high does not surprise me that much. I've just heard three live recordings by renowned pianists who played beautifully and accurately through 25/11 just to produce a morrass of wrong notes in 25/12. Going up and down is one thing, going up and down reproducing all notes accurately is yet another -- especially after having played 25/11.

I won't argue here. Your logic is quite amusing, besides, this post shows that you even don't seem to understand the object of the poll you started YOURSELF.
As such, let's consider... you won.
Congratulations!

Oh and BTW, did anyone ever told you that talking to people as to a 3rd party considered as quite a low trick? Just wondering...

[cloches_de_geneve]

I understand very well what I am doing and what this poll is about. You may want to consult the introductory comments to Poll III, which explain the limitations of the polls and, btw, also acknowldge YOUR own criticisms.

AND

Once and for all:  The Polls are not here to confirm your own personal prejudices, but to collect a broad range of experiences and opinions. Capito?!

[chromatickler]

That 25/12 comes up high does not surprise me that much. I've just heard three live recordings by renowned pianists who played beautifully and accurately through 25/11 just to produce a morrass of wrong notes in 25/12.

this is a very amusing scenario and actually not uncommon. From talking to a few professional pianists i can tell you this is one etude that most simply REFUSE TO PRACTISE. One even told me it is the one chopin etude that could be learnt completely away from the keyboard. It's partly due to ego, as in they feel any practice time spent on THIS PARTICULAR ETUDE would somehow raise doubts about their 'talent'. Sad but true, as it does deserve much better performances.

and marik is right.  this poll is unlikely to be helpful to anyone if the majority of opinions are based on random deduction from listening to recordings rather than any solid experience with the etudes themselves.