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Cheating, Rach 2 (Read 4040 times)

Offline zheer

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Cheating, Rach 2
« on: March 21, 2006, 06:15:22 PM »

     For those who have playd Rach 2, haw do you manage the LH opening chords.
Do you play the note F in the LH seperatly to the chords even though it is written clearly as F-C-Aflat, and is that exceptable. To me it sounds ok if done very fast.  ::)
" Nothing ends nicely, that's why it ends" - Tom Cruise -

Offline tompilk

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #1 on: March 21, 2006, 08:14:16 PM »
hahahaha... i had this problem.. i can only play the last and first page so i cant really give good advice, but maybe i can...
i can play that anyway.. my hand is big enough... thankfully... but i find it then hard to get the other notes in that arent teh c in teh LH.... so i do tend to split it but i wouldn't play it too fast - make sure it is actually noticable so that the audience think you are doing it on purpose and not actually blagging it like you actually are... lol
Thats my input anyway...
tom
Working on: Schubert - Piano Sonata D.664, Ravel - Sonatine, Ginastera - Danzas Argentinas

Offline zheer

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #2 on: March 21, 2006, 08:46:29 PM »
Tom you are a genious, play the middle C with the LH , what a great idea. Did not think of that possibility.
" Nothing ends nicely, that's why it ends" - Tom Cruise -

Offline steve jones

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #3 on: March 21, 2006, 10:51:28 PM »

I hate these chords!

My hand is just a tiny bit to small to take them in one. I can play it when the A is natural, but the A flat makes it just out of range (my pinky cant play the F without getting the G a bit too).

One way to deal with this is to roll the chords like Ashkenazy, but I think it sounds better to 'ghost' the bass F just before hitting the rest of the chord. It seems a lot of people do this and it often goes unnoticed. For example, Kissin does it on a couple of the opening chords in one of his rec's.

But I agree, they are a real pain. It frustrates the hell out of me, as I could nail it if my pinky were just a few mm's longer!


Offline steve jones

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #4 on: March 21, 2006, 11:03:45 PM »

Check this link out, its the intro from three different performances, using three different techniques. Should help.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=06W1R4WG

Incidentally, the RH chords are no walk in the park either! The second one is quite finger bending if I remember correctly.


Offline zheer

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #5 on: March 22, 2006, 06:32:25 PM »

Incidentally, the RH chords are no walk in the park either! The second one is quite finger bending if I remember correctly.


   The RH chords are a walk in the park if you play middle C with your LH.
" Nothing ends nicely, that's why it ends" - Tom Cruise -

Offline steve jones

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #6 on: March 22, 2006, 08:52:40 PM »

Ah, I see what you mean. Like, ghost the bass FF, then play the C octave with the LH. Actually, that does seem easier!

I can play the RH chords, but my pinky starts to purchase after a while. Its not like I'll be playing this piece any time soon, but I do like to have a mess around with 'big' pieces, just for fun  ;)


Offline acha114

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #7 on: March 22, 2006, 10:12:47 PM »
Ah, I see what you mean. Like, ghost the bass FF, then play the C octave with the LH. Actually, that does seem easier!

I can play the RH chords, but my pinky starts to purchase after a while. Its not like I'll be playing this piece any time soon, but I do like to have a mess around with 'big' pieces, just for fun  ;)



what do you mean by ghosting the base FF. i can't play the middle C with my left hand, I have to use my right hand for that as indicated on the score

Offline gorbee natcase

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #8 on: March 22, 2006, 10:48:57 PM »
Simply arpegate them if that is a word, I think it is acceptable if you are not being unfaithfull to the music ( I prefere them that way :))
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Offline steve jones

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #9 on: March 22, 2006, 11:23:06 PM »
what do you mean by ghosting the base FF. i can't play the middle C with my left hand, I have to use my right hand for that as indicated on the score

Sorry, I meant ghost the F.

By this I mean play just before you move up to play the rest of the chord. This is another way to 'break' a chord, but can sometimes sound better than rolling it.


Offline Motrax

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #10 on: March 23, 2006, 02:11:02 AM »
If you aren't doing so already, play the RH chords by using your thumb to hit both bottom notes of each chord. So you'll be playing C and Db both with your thumb - it's quite easy and makes things a lot simpler to do.

Sorry if you already know about this.  :P
"I always make sure that the lid over the keyboard is open before I start to play." --  Artur Schnabel, after being asked for the secret of piano playing.

Offline tompilk

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #11 on: March 23, 2006, 05:11:43 PM »
ive cut the chords out of the video of weissenberg and uploaded it...
look how easy he makes it look... :)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/b0vylw
Tom
Working on: Schubert - Piano Sonata D.664, Ravel - Sonatine, Ginastera - Danzas Argentinas

Offline zheer

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #12 on: March 23, 2006, 05:37:05 PM »
ive cut the chords out of the video of weissenberg and uploaded it...
look how easy he makes it look... :)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/b0vylw
Tom

  Where is it, love to see it.
" Nothing ends nicely, that's why it ends" - Tom Cruise -

Offline steve jones

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #13 on: March 23, 2006, 06:05:24 PM »

There is also a vid of Kissin playing this, and it gives a good closeup on the start. I have it, but a very poor quality version.

The Wissenberg vid is good, but you can still see his RH straining a bit!

To be fare, the real issue with this passage is the LH. If you can comfortably play that minor tenth, then you're in business. For me, I struggle with the 'white to black / black to white' tenths. So Im stuck with the dilema of how best to spread to the chord.

It remains my firm believe that dropping just the F first, then hitting the rest of the chord solid is best. The sound of this big chord rolled is not nice to my ears.


Motrax,

Thats a good suggestion. I tend to do this alot on similar colour notes, but never tried it on opposing colours. Will give it a try though, thanks!



Offline zheer

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #14 on: March 23, 2006, 07:33:41 PM »
Thanks Tom very nice, i still think you are a genios  ;D.
" Nothing ends nicely, that's why it ends" - Tom Cruise -

Offline tompilk

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #15 on: March 23, 2006, 09:04:15 PM »
Thanks Tom very nice, i still think you are a genios  ;D.
lol... i only do my best  ;D
Ill upload the full vid sometime but its huge... 400mb.. ill split it into the separate movements then upload separately...
Tom
Working on: Schubert - Piano Sonata D.664, Ravel - Sonatine, Ginastera - Danzas Argentinas

Offline steve jones

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #16 on: March 23, 2006, 11:23:12 PM »

Tom,

You are the man, cheers! I love that video, Wissenberg does a grand job imo.


Offline cjp_piano

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #17 on: March 24, 2006, 05:13:44 AM »
I can almost reach all of them so when I played it, I rolled it quickly.  I heard recordings done this way.  I've also heard recordings (I think Helene Grimaud and someone else) where they play the low F first and jump up to hit the rest. 

You realize Rachmaninoff could reach a 13th with his left hand! (Like from C, skip the next C and play the next A - almost 2 octaves!!!!)

Offline jlh

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #18 on: March 24, 2006, 08:46:50 AM »
Even though Rach himself had a large reach, he didn't usually play the LH chords all at once.  He usually played the F and then the C and Ab together.  I personally don't think it sounds good if you arpeggiate the LH chords.  I played this concerto with orchestra last Fall, and I experimented with various ways to solve that problem.  I can reach the 10th fine, but still I think it sounds better if it's broken between the F and the other notes.

Edit: Just to be clear, arpeggiating the LH and breaking the chord up between the F and C/Ab etc. are 2 different things.  I'm not sure if that was clear in this post. I've heard many recordings and performances of this concerto and think the way Rach played it sounds best.  Take a listen to the recording in the post under this and you'll see what I mean.
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
                 ___/\___
  L   ______/             \
LOL "\         [ ] \
  L              \_________)
                 ___I___I___/

Offline cjp_piano

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #19 on: March 24, 2006, 02:34:42 PM »
Even though Rach himself had a large reach, he didn't usually play the LH chords all at once.  He usually played the F and then the C and Ab together.  I personally don't think it sounds good if you arpeggiate the LH chords.  I played this concerto with orchestra last Fall, and I experimented with various ways to solve that problem.  I can reach the 10th fine, but still I think it sounds better if it's broken between the F and the other notes.

That's interesting, how did you know that Rachmaninoff played it that way?

Offline Motrax

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #20 on: March 24, 2006, 03:54:06 PM »
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000003FB7/sr=8-6/qid=1143215519/ref=pd_bbs_6/102-2081329-7360153?%5Fencoding=UTF8

You can listen to his opening chords on amazon, but you should really buy the set - it's priceless.  :)
"I always make sure that the lid over the keyboard is open before I start to play." --  Artur Schnabel, after being asked for the secret of piano playing.

Offline zheer

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #21 on: March 25, 2006, 03:51:55 PM »
Thanks Mortax, and WAW no one plays the piano like that anymore. Anyway the Rachmaninoff plays Choipn, is on my chopinliszt  ;D.
" Nothing ends nicely, that's why it ends" - Tom Cruise -

Offline der wanderer

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #22 on: April 24, 2006, 11:38:50 AM »
Sorry to re-open this thread, just found the topic..
Yes in interpretations from Rachmaninoff himself, or in Grimaud's you can hear the chords are rolled. Even if the composer could reach a 13th, he couldn't stretch his hands in that way while playing normally !! I know you can see pictures of his hands, but they had elasticity limits  ;)
I have small hands, for the two first chords i struggle but the rest is fine.  ::)

In the interpretation from Jean Philippe Collard (=killer!) the chords are played like written.
Interesting topic thanks...

Offline steve jones

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #23 on: April 25, 2006, 03:53:57 AM »

Loads of people play them correct - Kissin (usually), Lang Lang, Gavrilov, Weissenberg, Cziffra etc.

An equal amount seem to prefer the broken sound (or have to play it this way) - Rubinstein, Hough, Ashkenazy, Lisitsa and even the big man himself. Not sure if this is an aesthetic choice or what, but Im beginning to prefer this sound, with the bass F detached. Some seem to mix it, playing some solid and some broken.

One thing that I feel is important is not to roll the chord. This can sound crap, like in Ashkenazy's recording. Much better to detach the bass F and play the remainder solid (imo).

SJ

Offline martha argerrrrrich

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #24 on: April 25, 2006, 05:18:29 AM »
Loads of people play them correct - Kissin (usually), Lang Lang, Gavrilov, Weissenberg, Cziffra etc.

An equal amount seem to prefer the broken sound (or have to play it this way) - Rubinstein, Hough, Ashkenazy, Lisitsa and even the big man himself. Not sure if this is an aesthetic choice or what, but Im beginning to prefer this sound, with the bass F detached. Some seem to mix it, playing some solid and some broken.

One thing that I feel is important is not to roll the chord. This can sound crap, like in Ashkenazy's recording. Much better to detach the bass F and play the remainder solid (imo).

SJ


blah ....blah...blah....
Missing the whole point...another proof that most pianists are closet pianists...The whole of idea the concerto is Rachmaninov concieved it based on the BELLS of RUSSIA. The sound of BELLS doesnt sound like arpeggios....The Piano Concerto opening sounds are supposed to be imitated like that of BELLS.....and so it sounds ethereal and does justice when u play the LH with F Detached,  very similar to how the bells are usually rung( not because the whole chord is difficult to play in L.H)...GOD save the Classical music interpretation...blind interpretation without giving a wee bit attention to what Composers have done, what motivated them to write and the history of the piece.....will often result in ridiculous analysis

Offline steve jones

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #25 on: April 25, 2006, 08:24:26 PM »
Are you insane?

"One thing that I feel is important is not to roll the chord."

What do you think that means?

I suggest you actually read posts before you quote them...  ::)

SJ

Offline acha114

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #26 on: April 26, 2006, 08:44:24 AM »
Check this link out, its the intro from three different performances, using three different techniques. Should help.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=06W1R4WG

Incidentally, the RH chords are no walk in the park either! The second one is quite finger bending if I remember correctly.



I just downloaded this file. Who are the three performers, and what techniques are you referring to? I think the first one is done by Ashkenazy?

Offline steve jones

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #27 on: April 26, 2006, 05:36:38 PM »

Did I not say?

Sorry, I forget which order they were in, these were the techniques I wanted to illustrate:

1. Playing the entire chord solid as written. Kissin, Cziffra, Weissenberg and many others play this way.

2. Detaching the bottom F, as performed by Hough, Rachmaninov etc. This achieves a similar effect, and seems to be the most common method.

3. Rolling the entire chord, as performed by Ashkenzay. Destroys the effect of the chords.

These appear to be the three ways of playing this passage. Only the first two are satisfactory imo, but clear some prefer the sound of the rolled chords (or why else would they do it?).

Here is another little set, this with seperate files labelled with the performer and technique used:

http://download.yousendit.com/0CC45C33101417DA

Hope this clears up any confusion.

SJ


Offline kaiwin

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #28 on: May 01, 2006, 07:04:40 PM »
People who have small hands roll the chords.  ;D
Fun piece :-D

Offline jlh

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #29 on: July 01, 2006, 10:22:50 AM »
People who have small hands roll the chords. ;D

Funny, except for the fact that once you play the bottom F, the rest of the chord fits well with any small hands there may be. ;)
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
                 ___/\___
  L   ______/             \
LOL "\         [ ] \
  L              \_________)
                 ___I___I___/

Offline steve jones

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #30 on: July 01, 2006, 05:55:52 PM »

Its funny but Rach2 to isnt really that dependent on having large hand, regardless of the rough intro chords. There are some tenths in there, but no more so than with Chopin or Liszt.

Ofcourse, I cant play this piece so take that with a pinch of salt!

SJ

Offline houseofblackleaves

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #31 on: July 03, 2006, 08:39:09 PM »
In my interpretation I sort of *rolled* the left hand, that or played the f seperate.

Offline tompilk

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #32 on: July 07, 2006, 02:56:25 PM »
I recently bought Stephen Hough's new live recordings on Hyperion and I have to say they are amazing... hardly any wrong notes - (i havent noticed one yet and I've listened through both discs twice!!!). All recorded in a space of 2 weeks and next to no editing time, these are supposed to be better than Horowitz's performances - and even better than Rachmaninov's!!!
I can only agree that it's the best i've heard.
Here's the first movement of Rach 2 - he just attacks the piece, successfully and it seems just how rachmaniniov imagined - not sentimental but emotional when it needs to be:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LDE7HPE3
Enjoy!
Tom
Working on: Schubert - Piano Sonata D.664, Ravel - Sonatine, Ginastera - Danzas Argentinas

Offline avetma

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #33 on: July 07, 2006, 03:56:42 PM »
I recently bought Stephen Hough's new live recordings on Hyperion and I have to say they are amazing... hardly any wrong notes - (i havent noticed one yet and I've listened through both discs twice!!!). All recorded in a space of 2 weeks and next to no editing time, these are supposed to be better than Horowitz's performances - and even better than Rachmaninov's!!!
I can only agree that it's the best i've heard.
Here's the first movement of Rach 2 - he just attacks the piece, successfully and it seems just how rachmaniniov imagined - not sentimental but emotional when it needs to be:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LDE7HPE3
Enjoy!
Tom

Second that  :D

Offline steve jones

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Re: Cheating, Rach 2
«Reply #34 on: July 07, 2006, 10:48:15 PM »

I thought that Hough played it a little quickly, until I heard Rach play it. Then I remembered hearing that he said his interpretation was inspired by Rach's own playing, so it made sense.

His complete Rach Concerto's is available (I have it, very good!),

SJ