The new generation pianist

[Dazzer]

What i am about to post is what, i feel, is the direction we pianists, as musicians, should take so as to preserve our livelihoods.

It would seem that just being a pianist isn't good enough anymore. Sooner or later, there will be little orchestras with enough sponsorship to survive, and as such, we will suffer the blow as well. Concerts may suffice to support those few who have the gift, as well as the privilege, to play in front of an audience.

What i'm about to propose may sound a little off... and might not sit well with many. But what i feel is that , eventually, only the musicians with the financial backing will be able to survive in what we can safely call a declining industry

So my solution to this, and i have put much thought into it, is that we should stop trying to become pianists, and put securing a solid financial buffer as a priority. What this means is that, in my scenario, our pianists won't be pianists anymore. What they'll be doing is building up their passive income with businesses, assets, real estate etc so that eventually they'll be able to comfortable set out to acheive what they want.

What will happen eventually is that, now orchestras have a demand. No longer do they have to pay people to play with them. They'll now be getting paid to play with someone else instead. Our musicians get paid, our orchestras get paid, we get exposure we need, and voila. We won't need sponsorship for our concerts. We won't need competitions to prove our worth.

Its 3 am in the morning, so i'm a little sketchy with the details. Haha felt like a rant after a long absence.

Anyway, do comment.

[e60m5]

Well, if this is the way things are set to go, then I'm on good footing... 

[alzado]

What I think is that too many people try to use their talent with the piano to make money or to make a living.  Oftentimes this is not a good avenue to attainment of an upper middle-class lifestyle and income level, which is necessary to buy a good grand piano and find the leisure to play same.

Instead of MAKING money, how about HAVING money?   Then you get a really nice grand piano and play it for self-fulfillment.  The idea of fine art is not to ring the cash register.

I think that is what you are saying.  I am retired, have lots of $$$$$,  and play my grand piano about 2 hours a day.  Mainly just for my wife and two cats.  And for me, of course.

Today I was working on some of the Chopin waltzes.  Why?  Because I like them.

[Mozartian]

Well I've decided that whatever I do, music must always make me absolutely happy and NEVER become a curse for me. Learning more about the lives of pianists, including ones I very much admire for their amazing skill, has lead me to the somewhat heartrending decision that professional musicianship isn't for me.

So I'm gonna be the best amateur everrrrrrrrrrr!!!!! 

[nedgerhart]

This reminds me of some thread I posted to a while back where I suggested that, to my experience, music is a fantastic hobby but a lousy career. I think it wasn't particularly well received.  I believe people underestimate the degree of skill/talent/motivation/charisma it takes to make a go of it, and achieve an income that will be anything like comfortable....let alone "upper middle class".

On the other hand, music as a second income in a household is not such a bad thing. My wife's career as a university librarian made it possible for me to be a "professional" musican for several years. We managed. But I could never imagine providing sole support for a family based only on gigs. And (modesty aside) I'm a good player.  I'm just not the sort of player with golden fingers who reads perfectly, anticipates the correct expression all the time, is a tireless self-promoter, and has consistently cheerful and outgoing personality.

[tac-tics]

So I'm gonna be the best amateur everrrrrrrrrrr!!!!! 

Quoted for excellence.

I went to the music store the other day inquiring about viola/violin rental and I asked how much one would cost. The clerk told me their student instruments cost about $1200. I joked with her that I would gladly spend that amount without regret even if the only returns I ever made playing the thing was fifty-some dollars for playing at for a friend at a party.

[Dazzer]

ah thank you all for the comments.

but i'm afraid some of you might not be thinking along my frequency...

I'm not talking about whether we're all amatuers or not... i'm suggesting a completely new breed of professionals. Those with the financial clout to survive, and with the drive and time to advance their skill to a level comparable with those of a professional today.

Because that's what this industry needs today, when sponsorship is rare, and reserved only for the best, and where the best are just as rare. There's no new blood. There's no new impetus to advance. Everyone's just about to go do the same things over and over again. Everyone is restricted to doing the same things simply because they have to conform to the norm, so as to win competitions.not to mention the amount of SUCKING UP you'd have to do... there're just so much politics its just not worth it.

[juliax]

A professional piano teacher can easily make over $100,000 a year if they have a degree and an excellent reputation.  That would be 67 students a week at $125/mo. per student.  I know teachers that charge more.  That would be a lot of work, but um, isn't that how people are supposed to make money?

I think that the secret to keeping music alive and making a living at it is teaching it, not just performing it. 

[Kassaa]

A professional piano teacher can easily make over $100,000 a year if they have a degree and an excellent reputation.  That would be 67 students a week at $125/mo. per student.  I know teachers that charge more.  That would be a lot of work, but um, isn't that how people are supposed to make money?

I think that the secret to keeping music alive and making a living at it is teaching it, not just performing it. 

Erm, 67 students a week? how long would a lesson be?

[plunkyplink]

I was wondering, couldn't someone, who enjoys performing and has the appropriate skill just simply rent a hall with a grand piano, (like the college in my town), organize a concert with other pianists, or go solo, or throw in a violinist for a duet or something, and just pay for their own ads and publicity? Then, there you go, you have your concert on your own terms, you don't have to audition, or anything, just fork over some initial investment. I was thinking of doing this in a year or two. What's to stop me? Other than small audiences, of course. If you hold enough of these self-made concerts, and push some CDs, book some interviews, and be persistant, you can become well-known and generate some interest.

My theory is why drive myself batty with trying to get my peice of paper, ARCT, and just apply the sweat and perserverance into the marketing side of it. I like what Dazzer is suggesting, it's putting your destiny into your hands as a professional muscian.

[juliax]

Erm, 67 students a week? how long would a lesson be?

30 minutes.  When I worked at a school, I had 50 students a week.  Granted, they came to me I didn't go to them, but I also only worked 25 hours a week.  I know many teachers who have more than that on their own.  Many of them also give group lessons for up to 4 children at a time for $65/mo per student for 30 minutes.  65*4=$260/mo. for 30 minutes a week of work+driving time. 
There is a lot of money in teaching if you have the right marketting skills.

[musicsdarkangel]

yep, so true.


What is the most highest in demand instrument in search for teachers?

Think about it, everyone has taken piano lessons at some point.


Every teacher I've ever had has been happy and wealthy, even the bad ones.


This makes me more than confident because I also happen to play violin and guitar at an advanced level and will be able to teach those as well 

[Dazzer]

yup plunky is on the right track.

The point of this is not about whether its possible to make a living in music, but rather, for the lesser musician to be able acheive something that he wouldn't normally acheive via the means available today (competitions).

Being a professional music teacher may be nice and all... but i feel ultimately what people want to do is to perform. And if say you're teaching 70 students a week, 7 students a day at an hour a student, you really wouldn't have alot of time to practice would you? I think most of the time you'd be mentally exhausted from it all to even bother.

[juliax]

yup plunky is on the right track.

The point of this is not about whether its possible to make a living in music, but rather, for the lesser musician to be able acheive something that he wouldn't normally acheive via the means available today (competitions).

Being a professional music teacher may be nice and all... but i feel ultimately what people want to do is to perform. And if say you're teaching 70 students a week, 7 students a day at an hour a student, you really wouldn't have alot of time to practice would you? I think most of the time you'd be mentally exhausted from it all to even bother.

Actually, 7 students at 1/2 an hour a day is only 3 1/2 hours.   This leaves plenty of time to practice.  Most guitar teachers i know are also performers and some are in multiple bands.  Teaching in no way conflicts with performing unless you are a travelling performer.  At the music school where I used to work, we dealt with this by having substitute teachers available.  This can also be done if you know a network of teachers. 
I have a friend who actually networks teachers and takes half of the tuition even though she doesn't even go to the lesson.  She simply coordinates it, and if that teacher doesn't work out, she coordinates another. 
I think being involved in competitions and being a performer actually makes you more valuable as a teacher, and therefore, you can charge more than someone who is less accomplished.

[Dazzer]

again... i have to re-emphasise the focus of my topic.

we're not talking about TEACHERS! nor are we talking about whether music is a viable career. What (yet again) i am suggesting is that we, as musicians, need to stop thinking that in other to have some sort of recognition in this field we'd need to slave over the piano and join biased competitions where the judges have had plenty of people sucking up to them. the other point is that we need a NEW DIRECTION if we are to do something about this dwindling (imhumbleo) industry. Because OBVIOUSLY whatever we're doing now is NOT working. no amount of government funding will save it. we need to stop depending on sponsorship and do it ourselves!!

(btw... when was the last time you gave a half an hour music lesson? god can you even cover scales in half an hour?... and who the hell charges $125 for half an hour? my teacher charges 60 an HOUR at a diploma level! you're WAY above your head if you think you command such rates... you may as well become a professional artiste charging 10000 per session)

[juliax]

again... i have to re-emphasise the focus of my topic.

we're not talking about TEACHERS! nor are we talking about whether music is a viable career. What (yet again) i am suggesting is that we, as musicians, need to stop thinking that in other to have some sort of recognition in this field we'd need to slave over the piano and join biased competitions where the judges have had plenty of people sucking up to them. the other point is that we need a NEW DIRECTION if we are to do something about this dwindling (imhumbleo) industry. Because OBVIOUSLY whatever we're doing now is NOT working. no amount of government funding will save it. we need to stop depending on sponsorship and do it ourselves!!

(btw... when was the last time you gave a half an hour music lesson? god can you even cover scales in half an hour?... and who the hell charges $125 for half an hour? my teacher charges 60 an HOUR at a diploma level! you're WAY above your head if you think you command such rates... you may as well become a professional artiste charging 10000 per session)

I have taught thousands and thousands of 30 minutes lessons very affectively.  Many of my students have gone on to major music schools.  Just because your teacher is not worth more, doesn't mean others are the same way.  Noone can charge more than they believe they are worth, but trust me, many teachers make a lot of money.  One of my teachers was a professional concert pianist who would not teach me unless I practiced an hour everyday.  He charged well over $100 a month.

The last 30 minutes less I gave was Saturday.  I charge $90/mo. because I don't have a degree and because the teacher they had before me was undercharging them, so I lowered my price.  Most of my students parents also give me Christmas bonuses.  Do not tell a piano teacher what is/isn't a fair price.  I've been in the business a long time, so there's really no point in telling me what you "think" is fair.  I know how much my fellow teachers in my area charge, and I know how to choose a fair price. 

But since we're being judgemental and rude, maybe doing competitions isn't worth that much?  Most people consider things like that a hobby, not a real job.  I wouldn't expect anyone to make a lot of money from performances alone unless they got famous.

Don't start topics if you don't like responses.  Teaching is a viable way to make money as a pianist, period. 

[Dazzer]

i apologise on two points:
1) i misread the previous posts, and thought you were charging 125 / hour / student.
2) that i may come across as being arrogant or rude. Trust words to convey expression. but being rude was not my intention. i retract my statements.

But that aside, we're STILL going off topic. Fine by me if you want to be a piano teacher all your life. I'm not doubting that its a viable career, and one that someone could make a living on. But what of those who want so much more? Is all our hard work for a stupid piece of paper all just so we can charge an extra few dollars / hour to students? I myself have done teaching, and i charge 40-50 an hour for lower grade. But i just don't see myself doing it for the rest of my life.

And there's also the issue of dwindling interest. Yes everyone still takes lessons. But when do most stop? Grade 5 is the average, i believe. Some make it to grade 8. And most of them end up playing pop songs. Those who don't, even less of them even think of taking it seriously. This isn't going to help the classical music industry at all.

and yes... with competitions in its dismal political state, its fairless useless at the moment. The non-winners at the competition may not be bad pianists, and the winners at the competitions may not be great pianists either. Its simply a shortcut for those lucky enough to get a recording contract and a tour.

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Most people consider things like that a hobby, not a real job.  I wouldn't expect anyone to make a lot of money from performances alone unless they got famous.
 
That's exactly my point. they take it as a hobby because they don't see themselves acheiving the kind of results at that level. how many a kid has given up on a dream just because they didn't make it to the juilliard? how many more couldn't afford to go to the juilliard in the first place?

So what i was suggesting in the first place is that we, as musicians, need to be trained in financial intelligence. Build up assets. Passive income. Time INVESTMENT.
No more can we depend on performances for money! But if we DO want to perform, how else will we do it, aside from teaching, which eats up so much time, its just simply not worth it for people like me, who want to live comfortably.

They say the music industry is a tough life to live. I don't think it has to be so, if we choose otherwise.

[gruffalo]

just an opinion, but for me (and i state again , FOR ME) money ruins music. I am dropping my set path for a degree in engineering (which would start next year) for a career as an Opera singer and a Concert Pianist and a composer. not because i want to better my chances into the performance world,but because i can only live happy by doing all three. Wherever music leads me, i intend only to leave a middle class life like i do now with my parents (im still 17) offcourse but with enough money for family and a grand piano and to support the music, and most i will put into a charity that i will set up. people say "yea, but you know you wont do this" but i will. and because i know that the more money a person gets, the more greedy he gets, which is why i already give away money to charity now even though i dont have much. i won $200 in a competition, so i decided to give away an amount that i didnt want to give, so i gave away $100. i dont even have $100 in my bank, let alone enough to give it away, but that made me happy. I think money would ruin me. so even if i gained an income as a Concert proffesional of millions, i would give most of it to charity work. thats just me.

[plunkyplink]

This reminds me of Art College, 20 years ago. There was always a division between the commercial artists and the fine artists. I chose a path in between. I was open to commercial opportunities and I wanted the fine art acceptance. It seems to be the same with pianists. Only a handful of pianists can become rich/comfortable as purely performers and not have to teach to supplement income. There are only a handful of artists that can make a living and even less who become rich while alive.

In Art College we all thought we had a shot at being one of those elite few. But, I quickly learned that it's nearly impossible without some type of divine intervention, like finding a sugar daddy, or inheriting millions. Most artists that can  work on the art full time are not living on their own income, they are living off someone else, plus grants from the government. These artists weren't more artistically talented than anyone else.

After Art College I applied for some art grants, like my peers did, and I got rejected each time. It was so much work to apply for these grants, weeks and hours and hours, only to realize the panel of judges picked the lousy artists who totally kissed their butts, they were more social than artistic. The critiques from the judges were always, about what they would have done with the idea, how can you predict what other people would do with the idea? The same deal goes for galleries, you usually need to be connected to the higher class somehow, in order to have shows.

I decided early on that this begging for money, and scrounging for pennies, and shmoozing to the a-holes was not for me. I decided to do my art on my own terms and make a living to be able to afford to do what I want to do. As it turns out, I'm doing just fine, I have a great self-made art career, and get recognition and respect from my peers. I'm applying these principles to my re-kindled love of piano, I'd rather be a self-made pianist than one who has to go through a similar process as the art scene. I just won't go on shmooze, I go on merit, let the audience be the judge.

[juliax]

i apologise on two points:
1) i misread the previous posts, and thought you were charging 125 / hour / student.
2) that i may come across as being arrogant or rude. Trust words to convey expression. but being rude was not my intention. i retract my statements.

But that aside, we're STILL going off topic. Fine by me if you want to be a piano teacher all your life. I'm not doubting that its a viable career, and one that someone could make a living on. But what of those who want so much more? Is all our hard work for a stupid piece of paper all just so we can charge an extra few dollars / hour to students? I myself have done teaching, and i charge 40-50 an hour for lower grade. But i just don't see myself doing it for the rest of my life.

And there's also the issue of dwindling interest. Yes everyone still takes lessons. But when do most stop? Grade 5 is the average, i believe. Some make it to grade 8. And most of them end up playing pop songs. Those who don't, even less of them even think of taking it seriously. This isn't going to help the classical music industry at all.

and yes... with competitions in its dismal political state, its fairless useless at the moment. The non-winners at the competition may not be bad pianists, and the winners at the competitions may not be great pianists either. Its simply a shortcut for those lucky enough to get a recording contract and a tour.

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Most people consider things like that a hobby, not a real job.  I wouldn't expect anyone to make a lot of money from performances alone unless they got famous.
 
That's exactly my point. they take it as a hobby because they don't see themselves acheiving the kind of results at that level. how many a kid has given up on a dream just because they didn't make it to the juilliard? how many more couldn't afford to go to the juilliard in the first place?

So what i was suggesting in the first place is that we, as musicians, need to be trained in financial intelligence. Build up assets. Passive income. Time INVESTMENT.
No more can we depend on performances for money! But if we DO want to perform, how else will we do it, aside from teaching, which eats up so much time, its just simply not worth it for people like me, who want to live comfortably.

They say the music industry is a tough life to live. I don't think it has to be so, if we choose otherwise.

I fully accept your apology, sorry I got defensive.  I definately think you have some good points.
I actually use my influence as a piano teacher to show kids how to enjoy classical music.  I have only taught classical music, and use my own love and power of pursuasion to instill a love of music in children.  I don't think a musician should teach all their life, or even be a full time teacher, but as a musician, teaching music to children will help guarantee a love for music in future generations.  Sharing your love for music will encourage others to do the same, and I truely believe if enough musicians learned to share their understanding of music, more people would be drawn to classical music.   I am actually taking my students on a "field trip" to the symphony in 2 weeks, and depending on how that goes (it's my first field trip) I will plan even more in the future.  Group rates make it extremely affordable ($15-adults, $9-children for this particular show) and turning it into a group activity helps people up to the experience.  
I have just recently started back to teaching on my own, and am discovering the benefits and how much money I can actually make for minimal work.  I am probably going to quit doing engineering (my full time job) and just teach because it makes so much more money.  I know your topic was to avoid talking about teaching, but to me it just seems the most obvious way to go.  Most artists in any craft teach to suppliment their income.  Heck, even teachers teach on the side these days.
All that stuff you listed about students quitting, etc, that's all stuff that you learn how to deal with as you gain experience.  I tackled those problems years ago, and now they aren't even an issue.  There is a very high demand for teachers and mentors.  Kids really need guidance, and they're everywhere, so why not profit off of guiding them?  Somebody needs to!  Especially if you can instill a love of music at such a young age.  It really isn't "just teaching" unless you make it "just teaching,"  If you make it about sharing a love for music, your student will NEVER outgrow your services.  See what I'm saying?
Also, that $100k a year number I pulled out was just kind of a starting point.  As you pointed out, most teachers dont charge $125, in fact, around here the average is $100, and 67 students would be a bit taxing, but even a $50k a year supplement to piano competitions would be nice, don't you think?   And this income could then be turned around into investments in property, etc.  Also, teaching provides an insane amount of tax right offs.  Gas, music equipment, sheet music, gifts for your students (trust me, it's a must), and things of this nature.  To tell you the truth, I really don't like kids and I have absolutely no patience, but I was trained by a professional and got really good at it.  It's so nice knowing all the work I've put into playing piano (20 years now) can actually pay off (I don't mean just financially either).  Teachers are in such high demand, you could choose only adults, or only people with flexible schedules, or only people who want to be professionals, and never charge less than what it's worth to you.  I don't like working during the week (after my fulltime job) so I charge more for weekday lessons.  
The possibilities are really endless.  But I see your point about it not being just an investment.  You would have to commit a weekly lesson per student and actually have to be there and what not.  Perhaps we could start a training seminar for pianists on how to invest their money in real estate or something?  Is this more along the lines of what you mean?  It would be nice if there was a financial company with a program for musicians to help them properly manage and invest their money so that they can maximize their profits.  
I have immense respect for performers and people who can make a living doing that.  I think it's just amazing.  One of the engineers that used to work with my dad actually left engineering to become a pianist, and now plays at local restaraunts and bars.  I would love to be able to do something like that one day, but I've only managed to perform at a coffee shop that wasn't busy.  I don't really like being on stage or being the center of attention, so it's either teaching or engineering for me!
Good luck, I hope everything works out!

[juliax]

After Art College I applied for some art grants, like my peers did, and I got rejected each time. It was so much work to apply for these grants, weeks and hours and hours, only to realize the panel of judges picked the lousy artists who totally kissed their butts, they were more social than artistic. The critiques from the judges were always, about what they would have done with the idea, how can you predict what other people would do with the idea? The same deal goes for galleries, you usually need to be connected to the higher class somehow, in order to have shows.

Same thing goes for music schools.  The judges/professors are usually just x-musicians who couldn't make it, and have to constantly validate themselves by insulting students.  And they definately favor certain people over others for reasons as insignificant as a "smile."   A graduate student at a local symphony-bound university practically bragged to me about how he deducted points while he was a TA just because he didn't like certain people, and bumped up scores for cute girls who smiled at him.  I have a 5 letter word for guys like that.  "Loser"

[juliax]

just an opinion, but for me (and i state again , FOR ME) money ruins music. I am dropping my set path for a degree in engineering (which would start next year) for a career as an Opera singer and a Concert Pianist and a composer. not because i want to better my chances into the performance world,but because i can only live happy by doing all three. Wherever music leads me, i intend only to leave a middle class life like i do now with my parents (im still 17) offcourse but with enough money for family and a grand piano and to support the music, and most i will put into a charity that i will set up. people say "yea, but you know you wont do this" but i will. and because i know that the more money a person gets, the more greedy he gets, which is why i already give away money to charity now even though i dont have much. i won $200 in a competition, so i decided to give away an amount that i didnt want to give, so i gave away $100. i dont even have $100 in my bank, let alone enough to give it away, but that made me happy. I think money would ruin me. so even if i gained an income as a Concert proffesional of millions, i would give most of it to charity work. thats just me.

Awesome, a fellow engineer/pianist.  I say do both!  You probably won't make millions doing either one, but you can certainly make a confortable living doing both. 
Remember, it's not money that ruins people, it's people that ruin themselves.  Money just gives you freedom, it is up to you to choose how to use it.  If you choose to let it corrupt you, it is your own weak will that is the culprit, not the money itself.  (food for thought)

[dinosaurtales]

This is a very interesting topic, Dazzer, and I talk to my piano teacher about this frequently - it really ticks her off, too.  I really believe that the existing classical music community needs to take a very hard look at itself and realize that their very attitudes are turning people off, and frustrating what would otherwise be enthusiastic music students and concert goers.  It's the snobby I'm-a-fancy-musician-you'll-never-be-anything-no-matter-how-hard-you-practice attitude.  It gets applied to adults that are "too old to achieve anything" - I was turned down by several teachers who said they wouldn't take adults.  It gets applied to kids of all ages who are enthusiastic about music, but are told they just aren't "good enough".  it gets applied to concert goers when the musicians preen and talk themselves up and "non-musical-types" down.  They also like to play the liberal hate-corporate-America thing, quite openly, which is really biting the hand that feeds them - have you ever checked out the donor list of a symphony program?  it's loaded with corporate sponsors and local business people.

I truly believe that the classical music community is doing this to themselves, and they need to stop it.  Just because a kid isn't talented enough to "become anything" is no reason to discourage a lifetime of enjoying music.  Remember the good old days - like in Mozart's time - when folks would just get together at each others' houses and play music for each other?  That's the sort of thing that should be encouraged, not the current all-or-nothing approach that's being taught by many including my piano teacher.  She is one of those that was born and raised to play the piano - gave her first recital at 3, taught lessons from age 11 to now.  She really believes that without that kind of upbringing someone like me has no business attempting to get a masters degree in music - I mean, what for?  i agree with you Dazzer - major change is in order!

[gruffalo]

Awesome, a fellow engineer/pianist.  I say do both!  You probably won't make millions doing either one, but you can certainly make a confortable living doing both. 
Remember, it's not money that ruins people, it's people that ruin themselves.  Money just gives you freedom, it is up to you to choose how to use it.  If you choose to let it corrupt you, it is your own weak will that is the culprit, not the money itself.  (food for thought)

i understand your point. i chose to study physics, maths, history and music over the last two years because these are what i am good at. I am really good at all these subjects but i am way better at singing and piano. its my life and i cant deny it. these last two years for me have been such a struggle because i realise how much i hate physics and maths, even though i get great grades for them. I know that if i go to study Electronic Engineering (which i have 6 places at top Unis for) i will just fall into a pit of misery and i will be very stressed (not like normal stress) and unhappy. my physics teacher said "if you chose a degree something you dont like, you will do crap at it" in those very words.

im not interested in money. i have always been a charitable person, and i will continue to do so and i want to make a difference to the world, whichever path i choose. Im not just hoping to give the money away because i think it will ruin me, i want to give it away.  A million pounds can buy me a nice house, but whats that when it could save 1000s of dying Africans. Thats where my heart lies. i think i might even live in Africa for a bit to do what i can for them. Either way, i just had the priviledge of my Mum paying for me to do an Easter Revision course at a private school in preparation for my A-levels, and buy seeing the attitudes of the rich kids there, i am glad i havent been brought up rich. I intend not to spoil my children, but only with necessities. Im not saying that all rich kids are like that, its just the ones whose parents just let them have what they want.

Gruff

[Dazzer]

Perhaps we could start a training seminar for pianists on how to invest their money in real estate or something?  Is this more along the lines of what you mean?  It would be nice if there was a financial company with a program for musicians to help them properly manage and invest their money so that they can maximize their profits.

Yup that's more or less what I was trying to get at.

Apologies... had a bad day so i'm not going to comment anymore.

[gruffalo]

Dazzer i see your points. I dont like the way people talk of profits and business once actually at a known status. i think money shouldnt be the primary focus of a musician. But i do feel that the way things go, only the rich will become good musicians.

Is it just me, or was it slightly like that before? i mean we are blessed with student loans and generally the average income is slightly higher and fairer these days. but it seems like most pianists in the previous generations came from wealthier backgrounds. im not saying this in an anti-semetic way nor am a doubting the talent of the Jewish musicians, but it seems like a vast majority of musicians in the previous generations were Jewish because they were richer and more buisness-minded. Maybe thats something to discuss. i dunno, prove me wrong if i am.

Gruff

[Dazzer]

that is certainly a statistical coincidence worth going into.

but it is probably true that most musicians probably were rich enough to have good teachers, and go to good schools and fly around the world for competitions etc.

yes it is also nice to think that money shouldn't be the primary focus of being a musician. I agree. but whether you like it or not, money makes the world go round. however what i'm suggesting as well is not that we must be obcessed with money. rather we should have the knowledge to make use of our money wisely.

[pianistimo]

your last two sentences seem to be the core idea.  how to use your money wisely. no matter how much or how little money people have - if they manage it - it will grow or at least cover their expenses. 

when i got  my bachelors degree i thought i would bring in a pretty good income teaching.  but, even if i had brought a full-time income teaching piano when i got married - i would still have taxes and state taxes and expenses (gas, car repairs, eating out - when very busy, travel expenses, etc).  this eats a huge chunk of what you think you are making.  so you try to get thrifty and learn ways to save.  this helps a little bit - but what financial experts really are trying to do is to obtain clients that are willing to just learn how to make more money quickly and have the extra to invest or save BEYOND the basics.  that IS very hard.

the only way gruffalo will even see his dreams of going to africa (which may be more rather than less expensive if he is extra charitable) - and not depend on his parents money is to GET THE ENGINEERING DEGREE.  YOU ARE AN IDIOT if you are making good grades in MATH AND SCIENCE and don't get it.  a double major is going to make the difference between you sailing high in your dreams of piano and singing or slumping into the depths of depression when it comes time to pay off those dastardly student loans.  just those alone can make people think about suicide. 

i think you are too smart, gruffalo, to not take advice from people who've tried to follow their dreams but without a good plan.  ask at least 15-20 people who are doing what they like.  most are RETIRED!!!  you can't do what you like in your average day without adding a lot of stuff you might not be extra fond of.  for instance, i can get an hour or two of practice in - but have  load of stuff to take care of (household, children, paperwork, driving around doing errands, doctor appts, etc etc).  if i simply quit doing the other - it would be selfish of me.  real life is like this.  you have load of * and you have this dream over here.  you have get through the load (LONG TERM THINKING) and then still make time for your dream.  if you just dream dream - you will get the load dumped on you full force at some short-term point.   

[gruffalo]

my point earlier, a few posts up, was that i would not be able make it in music if i go for my engineering degree. i am already slightly behind in music because of my concentration on studies and taking very difficult subjects. Furthermore, i want to be a composer an opera singer and a concert pianist. not just one, but all of them. i cant live without music. This is a fact: Maths and physics drives me nuts. i cant stand it anymore, i have not had enough. By doing an engineering degree, i am pretty much shutting out any time i have to do music. The only way i am getting through my exams without falling into complete stress, is that i still have time to exercise a good amount of music, but still not enough. A degree in engineering would not give me the time i need for music, i will lose my connection with music, and to pick it up again would be like starting again at a stage when i was like 12 or something. I will fall into never-ending stress if i went to do engineering degree which needs about 50% more dedication to maths itself than what i give now.

My mission to go to Africa would only be if i had a serious amount of money to give. Whatever path i go in in life, i intend to give the same proportion of money to charity, an amount that will leave me a comfortable, but not rich lifestyle. so if i get an engineering degree and earn a salary of 60000 pounds or probably less than that a year, i wont be going to Africa. i want to make a difference, build entire villages out of my income if i were to become a concert proffesional.

My life ambition is not to become a concert proffesional, nor is it to build villages in Africa. My life ambition is to fulfill what i can out of music and my dream is just to live with music. The concert proffesional idea is something to aspire to. if it was my life ambition, i would be unhappy by not succeeding such a status (if i were not to succeed it). My mission in Africa would just be a good deed to do if i were to earn the income of a concert proffesional.

Gruff

[pianistimo]

dear gruffalo,

i took a hiatus from  professional studies and practice for 15 years (i still played and performed but at a lesser level).  then i went back to grad studies and caught up within about 2 years (with a lot of effort, i might add, but it was fun).  as you say, piano and singing, and opera, and composing is something you love.  then that will be EASY.

take the hard FIRST.  get the degree.  quit whining and make up your mind (there are so many people jealous of your ease in getting A's in these subjects).  DO BOTH.  get the engineering degree first.  then focus soley on your music afterwards (4 more years if you want).  or, just go for the composition and lessons in piano/voice.  you'll probably have a good paying job and HEALTH INSURANCE (very important) and BENEFITS that you do not get in a rashly paid opera gig.  payments from opera, concertizing, etc. barely cover your costs of practice.  why not LIVE COMFORTABLY. 

and, when you go to africa, you can then have three talents.  to help build the villages, to minister, and to sing and teach piano/voice/composition.  with so many things you can do - if one fails you always have a back-up plan.  when there are lots of people unemployed in one field or another - you will not be.  my husband was like this.  he got a physics degree, and then went and got a library science degree.  he also, sings and took a lot of vocal lessons.  he could be a professional singer if he wanted - but he knows on that income he couldn't support us.  it is a sacrifice i suppose - but a reality sacrifice.  you can still practice, perform, compose - etc. but it might be secondary (after your day job).  lots of people sing in a chorale, or play in a symphony after work.  in fact, if you took a percentage that were full-time  100% practicing all day - and those that practice after work - probably the ones that practiced after work had the money to be in the chorale/symphony LONG TERM.  parking in philadelphia for one practice session can take money - plus eating out - and paying for gas.  car repairs, health insurance, benefits (retirement) you can't get from jobs like this.  only from corporations that have a lot of people and can afford GOOD benefits.  that's how you'll have EXTRA for music!!!  buying music, score paper, etc. won't be spent on the dentist or doctor. 

my broken leg costed $22,000. all told.  that could have put our family at risk of losing our home and many other things if we didn't have health insurance.  things like this just multiply the older you get.  you might find a girl.  get married, have children - and then you're in a downward spiral if you can't keep up.  it's like chasing the wind - if you have music degree and nothing else.

*we were initially planning to just have one child and ended up having three.  i wouldn't trade them for anything in the world, but they all have the same expenses (hair cuts, shoes/clothing, school supplies, dental work, doctor, fun stuff/toys, games, birthday parties, school pictures, activities, summer camps, you know!)  if one child can cost X  you have to times X by the  number of kids you have. 

[gruffalo]

ok, i could be petty and say things like "in England we automatically get health insurance" but i know what you mean. THe thing is, i understand how lucky i am being able to do physics and maths, but i think i would end up killing myself doing an engineering degree. maths makes me depressed. i cant handle the music and the school work right now, so how will i handle it with an engineering degree. music is what is keeping me going and aiming for good grades. When i say i get good grades, it doesnt mean it is easy. i work my arse off with the physics and maths to acheive those grades. now i dont know anyone else who works just as hard as me at  something they really really hate. i know people who work at something they dont like, but doing maths and physics when you really hate it is almost impossible, but i manage it. i wont manage it at degree level. i want to dedicate my life to music. also, i want to aim to become a concert proffesional. i dont think i will make concert proffesional status if i dont launch into it now. i am already behind.

this is a big decision. i have offers at university, which i can put forward a year till 2007. so even if i go for the auditions next year and take a year out, i can still turn back. i think many of musicians from the past and to this day have faced similar decisions and stress with their parents etc. i am very stressed out. not only do i work my ass off for these exams, hoping to do my parents proud, i balance this with music (giving not much time for relaxation or tele etc.) and at the same time i have mass rows with my parents. why cant they just lay off till i finish my exams? i havent cried since i was about 13 and i have been crying a lot recently. im not the crying type. this has driven me mad and i try and keep myself happy but it doesnt last long.

I also know that God will back me whicever path i choose, and i prayed about this a lot. Im sorry but think of the very thing you dont like, and see how long you will last doing that thing (considering it needs two years of dedicated effort). Thats what im going through. i am literally at my wits end with the science subjects.

Instead of having a break this summer like everyone else, i will be pushing myself as hard as possible with music to give my best shot for the auditions. Please dont say "quit whining" because i have kept myself silent for almost two years about this. i could have been whining everyday, but no, i did what i still think is best;  i gave engineering the best shot, so it still has its chance. i think most whiners would have sulked and failed the subjects. i get good grades, but i have to push myself very hard to get them.

[pianistimo]

i wasn't saying 'quit whining' because i think i know how you feel (because i don't).   passed entrance level math and science courses, and barely understand the pressure but didn't get as far as you.  what i do understand is the amount of persistence it takes to accomplish something of worth.  if something comes easy (music/singing/vocal) it is good.  you may well be an accomplished artist.  but it doesn't end there.  you also have to be a business person.  you have to know about something other than music.  if it is not math and science, make it computers  or something that pays!

don't settle for 'i like this, this is easy, i get good grades easily, easy easy easy.'  that's where PAY GRADES enter the pic.  my husband has been frustrated until the last two years with the pay grade not going up as he wished.  it only goes up when you are at the management level.  managers have at least 4-6 years of training beyond the usual 4 years of college level.  they are basically SMARTER.  you have to be aiming at your highest and not what you feel you are capable of.  if you say - oh, i can just do what i like and be happy.  well, you can.  but, money does help, as dazzer says - to complete your course and be happy long-term.  to not cut your chances of going as far as you want with music - lessening your work hours (as you make more pay for less time being in management) and so are basically working smarter.  you set your pay grade when you are in college (unless you are extremely self motivated). 

[gruffalo]

i think over these last two years i have proved my motivation for anything. When i get my results i will not be proud of them or myself, but i will feel a small sense of acheivement. I dont see numbers, formuale and bla bla bla (could go on endlessly with the physics and maths). i feel acheivment when i perform, or finish a compositionm or perform a composition.

Also about the 'im good at this, this is easy' statement. i dont think choosing music is at all the easier path. i think it is an enormous amount of times more difficult than engineering, but i think i will crumble trying to study for an engineering degree. i wont have the perseverance to do it. Please dont think i am choosing music because i think it is easy. i do not in anyway think this.

[plunkyplink]

This thread has gone from, "how do we become entrepreneurial-minded pianists?" to "should I choose a career other than music?" It's interesting and all, but I was enjoying hearing Dazzers and others ideas on how we can turn the antiquated music system around 180 degrees. Personally, I think universities and degrees and so forth are good places to kill any entrepreneurial molecules in anyone's head. It's set up from the get go to compete with your peers. It discourages any shred of creativity, and collaboration, and most profs and teachers have their heads so far up their butts you wonder how they function in the real world, until you realize that once you're a prof with tenure it's easy street from there! I'll take exception with the medicine profession, but I'm talking about entrepreneurial aspirations. I've noticed that every school teaches about a particular profession, such as music, and they'll teach everything you can think of of music, except what you need to do to make money from music, how to market yourself, how to market your industry.

I gave a talk at a University for my chosen profession, and my adviceto the kids was to not listen to everything your teachers tell you, and keep yourself tuned into the real world because you can get really lost in the university ecosystem and function poorly when you get out. And, if you want to work in movies, why aren't you working in movies? In this case, If you want to be a comper/singer/pianist, then why aren't you composing, singing and performing? If you want to help Africans, then why aren't you in Africa helping them now? If you want to be an Engineer, then why aren't you engineering something right now?

[lung7793]

I didn't get to read through all the responses, so sorry if I'm repeating anything that's been said, but interest in classical music is declining (especially with younger people)  .  Or maybe it's not declining, it's just the fact that there are more people on the Earth today than before.  This creates an increase in talented musicians, more competition between them, and more people who just aren't interested or who have no clue what classical music is about or what to listen for in a performance. 

It also seems that everyone is ready for a brand new sound.  I for one am starting to get tired of all the recycled stuff, pop music and classical, and i'm only 24.  However, I think classical piano music holds a special place and the tradition needs to be continued.  I'm a pianist, but I get my money from teaching music in the public schools.  I'm trying to turn kids on to classical music....it's hard to do when you see some of their backgrounds. 

I listen to classical music and more specifically classical piano because it's what I like, it's what inspires me, and it's something that keeps me in wonder constantly.  I think that the "key" (hehe) is to expose more people to it and not strive to dazzle them, but to show them why music and the piano are so important for us.

[gruffalo]

This thread has gone from, "how do we become entrepreneurial-minded pianists?" to "should I choose a career other than music?" It's interesting and all, but I was enjoying hearing Dazzers and others ideas on how we can turn the antiquated music system around 180 degrees. Personally, I think universities and degrees and so forth are good places to kill any entrepreneurial molecules in anyone's head. It's set up from the get go to compete with your peers. It discourages any shred of creativity, and collaboration, and most profs and teachers have their heads so far up their butts you wonder how they function in the real world, until you realize that once you're a prof with tenure it's easy street from there! I'll take exception with the medicine profession, but I'm talking about entrepreneurial aspirations. I've noticed that every school teaches about a particular profession, such as music, and they'll teach everything you can think of of music, except what you need to do to make money from music, how to market yourself, how to market your industry.

I gave a talk at a University for my chosen profession, and my adviceto the kids was to not listen to everything your teachers tell you, and keep yourself tuned into the real world because you can get really lost in the university ecosystem and function poorly when you get out. And, if you want to work in movies, why aren't you working in movies? In this case, If you want to be a comper/singer/pianist, then why aren't you composing, singing and performing? If you want to help Africans, then why aren't you in Africa helping them now? If you want to be an Engineer, then why aren't you engineering something right now?

yea, sorry about that. i kind of turned the thread personal because i need help in this. Just out of interest, what is it you do and did at university? about the what am i doing now? i do compose, i do play and i do sing now. i do it a lot, even though i have minimal time do it. i give up my free time (which i should be using to relax from revision and keep stress levels low) but i love music. Im not in Africa right now, because that is something i want to do if i earn a lot of money i.e. concert proffesional wages. If i have an average engineer's salary, i will just give to charity.

All the people who have argued that i should go through the engineering side first, have not said what i want them to say: Its unlikely to become a concert proffesional in anyone of those three categories (even though i want all 3) whilst and after having done an engineering degree. When i went to the university interview, i asked about using pianos. they all said the same thing "pianos only available to music degree students". Ok, so i dont need a piano to practice singing, but my piano will drop. i also need the piano sometimes to do composition. my music will deteriate (spelling?) if i do engineering. its also impossible to fit in extra time for music in the 2nd and 3rd years of this particular degree.

[plunkyplink]

gruf, I was invited to speak at a Unversity in Arizona about the Culture of Geeks, and to talk about what my partner and I do, which is make a living doing what we enjoy, an online comic strip. It was a lot of fun, the University specializes in computer graphics and animation for movies, and creating computer games. The computer game industry is quite lucrative, all these kids had a bright future ahead of them as long as they don't get sucked into a downward spiral of being addicted to gaming and online role gaming.

I think there is some relation to your studies of engineering and math. I'm sure you'd fit in very well with game design and architecture, and of course you'd be able to compose your own music which saves a ton of expense with copyright issues. Come to think of it, I don't remember any students that were composing their own music, that would have stood out as a huge asset to have. Ever think of the computer gaming industry as a possible career? There are also a lot of entrepreneurial opportunities there too. I'm sure you'd be able to get a lucrative career in computer game music if you were going to go for that niche. It would be fun, too.

[Barbosa-piano]

 Alzado expressed one of my concerns. I must say, I love playing the piano, and I dream of being a performing and recording artist. Maybe even giving lectures, composing and conducting. But I am afraid I will not get enough money to make ends meet (probably the most discouraging fear of the deal).

[gruffalo]

gruf, I was invited to speak at a Unversity in Arizona about the Culture of Geeks, and to talk about what my partner and I do, which is make a living doing what we enjoy, an online comic strip. It was a lot of fun, the University specializes in computer graphics and animation for movies, and creating computer games. The computer game industry is quite lucrative, all these kids had a bright future ahead of them as long as they don't get sucked into a downward spiral of being addicted to gaming and online role gaming.

I think there is some relation to your studies of engineering and math. I'm sure you'd fit in very well with game design and architecture, and of course you'd be able to compose your own music which saves a ton of expense with copyright issues. Come to think of it, I don't remember any students that were composing their own music, that would have stood out as a huge asset to have. Ever think of the computer gaming industry as a possible career? There are also a lot of entrepreneurial opportunities there too. I'm sure you'd be able to get a lucrative career in computer game music if you were going to go for that niche. It would be fun, too.

i gave up computer games a year ago, i was very hooked on them and it was having a bad effect on my studies and my music. so unless i could approach it with maximum maturity, maybe. but i dont want to dig up old habits. i did used to think about composing for computer games. But i just want to give music my best shot to become a known proffesional.