thumb under, thumb over?

[Bob]

What is this?

I think I know thumb under.  What is thumb over?

[sissco]

https://members.aol.com/kwanmc/scale.htm This is Chang his book. I don't know if it is copy righted...if so I will delete it. It is a technique to play fast scales

[bernhard]

Have you lost the threads again, Bob? (Have you looked for them in the snail´s room? )

Here they are:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1918.msg15015.html#msg15015
(Thumb under/over – detailed explanation – Fosberry flop)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3100.msg27113.html#msg27113
(thumb over – hand displacement – practising with awareness – awareness is not thinking – learning by imitation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166
(Thumb over is a misnomer: it consists of co-ordinating four separate movements).

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=17061.new#new
(description of thumb movement when descending rh scales)

(And, as sissco said above, reread Chang)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[tunneller]

When I read Bernhard's summary of thumbover as having four separate components, I think I get it, but it seems to me different to Chang's in the emphasis on slanting the hand. What I got from the former was to place 3rd finger on E, slant hand by pushing elbow out and thumb will be brought to F. What I get from the latter is that with the 3rd finger on E then I really do have to pop the thumb over that 3rd finger to get to the F (tucking in the 2nd and 3rd fingers out of the way and moving hand forward slightly). I must be mis-reading one of them.... [The former keeps my hand in a more similarly position to a glissando too, which should be good for fast scales. It just feels a lot like thumb-under...]

In effect, I think the question is whether TO brings the thumb closer to the piano or closer to the edge of the key, compared to the previous note.

I've been practicizing thumb over without hand slanting and it is pretty cool on the white notes. When I have a finger on a black note, however, and need to thumb-over to a white note then the only way I can do it smoothly is to land my thumb almost at the top of the white key (near the piano) -surely not right. It's much easier to leave the finger on the black note and rotate the hand (elbow) and put the thumb into the large area of the white key.

I'm getting back into the piano and dont want to pick back up my old bad habits (hence my enthusiasm for TO). But which above the above should I be learning?

Thanks, John

[richy321]

Let's get to the crux of the matter.  In his 2004 update, C. C. Chang admits that the thumb does not cross over.  To quote,

"In the TO method, it is not possible to hold the 3 or 4 finger down until the thumb plays, unlike the TU method, and the thumb cannot pass over these fingers. For these reasons, some people object to the name TO because it is misleading."

Yet he inexplicably continues to use the term.  If he would only have the candor to clearly disavow the term TO, this dead horse could be finally given the oblivion that it deserves.

In my opinion, when analysed, it will be seen that Bernhard, Whiteside, Sandor, Chang all essentially follow the Taubman method of playing the thumb with an adduction motion after the arm moves the thumb past the 3rd or 4th finger, in ascending RH scales.  All these sources emphatically condemn the traditional TU method, and rightly so, IMO.  Only Chang calls the preferred method TO.  Moreover, he completely neglects the forearm rotary motion that is an integral part of the Taubman method, which, by the way, gives the only fully adequate treatment of the technique.  But, by far, the greatest problem is caused by the continued (if indeed he still promotes his method) use of the term TO.

Rich Y

[ramseytheii]

Let's get to the crux of the matter.  In his 2004 update, C. C. Chang admits that the thumb does not cross over.  To quote,

"In the TO method, it is not possible to hold the 3 or 4 finger down until the thumb plays, unlike the TU method, and the thumb cannot pass over these fingers. For these reasons, some people object to the name TO because it is misleading."

Yet he inexplicably continues to use the term.  If he would only have the candor to clearly disavow the term TO, this dead horse could be finally given the oblivion that it deserves.

In my opinion, when analysed, it will be seen that Bernhard, Whiteside, Sandor, Chang all essentially follow the Taubman method of playing the thumb with an adduction motion after the arm moves the thumb past the 3rd or 4th finger, in ascending RH scales.  All these sources emphatically condemn the traditional TU method, and rightly so, IMO.  Only Chang calls the preferred method TO.  Moreover, he completely neglects the forearm rotary motion that is an integral part of the Taubman method, which, by the way, gives the only fully adequate treatment of the technique.  But, by far, the greatest problem is caused by the continued (if indeed he still promotes his method) use of the term TO.

Rich Y

That's a great post.  Like most people I haven't read Chang's book all the way through, because it is just too dense, but the fact is little phrases like "Thumb over" are what eventually get disseminated from a large text, and we should indeed find a better solution.

I'm glad you pointed out the rotary forearm motion as an integral part of technique, since fast scales and arpeggios rely on this as much as tremolos or trills.

I think another problem with "Thumb over" is that people think the thumb never goes inside the hand, that it is always playing outside.  They try and do scales and arpeggios by just moving the hand over, but not moving the thumb at all, and I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that that's wrong.    If the elbow moves in a clockwise motion, it behooves the thumb to go a bit underneath the hand and not just stick out like a sore thumb.  Pretending that the thumb should be controlled entirely by the arm, is disregarding the flexibility of that amazing joint.

Walter Ramsey

[tunneller]

I like Walter's reference to the elbow. In an ascending RH scale during cross-over, is the general preference to push it away from the body slightly or pull it in towards?

This past week or so, I've been practicing pulling the elbow slightly in towards the body, tucking in the 3rd finger and that makes the thumb land slightly closer to the piano then fingers 2+3 had been (a "thumbs over"). It's a neat move on the white keys. But for those scales where the 3rd finger is on a black note, anything other than "elbow-away" seems nuts.

There also seems to be a contradition in Chang when he refers to rotating the hand in a similar direction as for a glissando. This also leads to an inherently "elbows out" kind of motion.

[tunneller]

Ok, that pretty much clinches it. The thumb goes under according to Chang's own video. His distinction between TO and TU is to do with the "reach" of the thumb under the hand.

https://members.aol.com/chang8825/TOscale.mp4

https://members.aol.com/chang8825/TOscale.wmv

Regards, John