Ginastera - Danza de la Moza Donosa

[wzkit]

Second movement from his Argentinian Dances. Comments are welcome.

[wzkit]

Another take of it. Both recorded on my Sauter Delta

[ce nedra]

Not bad at all! Do you play the entire work? I generally like your playing there are just a few things I must point out (if you dont mind..)

I the very beginning. Left hand. The two most important things here are the bass notes, which must resonate more (but not much more, just bring them out a little) and the top B,C,B (those 3 notes basically being your melody line in the LH) Right now you are putting a slight accent on the middle E which isnt necessary.

Take more time in the theme in the right hand. The RH starts with 4 consecutive E's, the first 3 being like an upbeat to the 4th, so work up to it, with a crescendo, and sound that 4th E as if you never wanted to let it go. My teacher's words on this: "THIS must be the note you must love, my dear". Aim for a more legato line in this melody. I find that (correct me if I am wrong) you should listen more critically and should find exactly what you want the music to do, emotionally, where you want it to go, and how you execute it. Maybe a tad too fast on the whole?

Overall I like the first section. I also very much like your entry into the 2nd, it flows like it should. Be aware of the bass notes in the LH, they carry this section. From your entry of the 2nd section until you get to the bigger chords, I find it sits all on one dynamic level. If you look in the music there is a constant crescendo here. Be careful not to be come monotonous in this piece. Very easy to do so. Also, focus on the top notes of your intervals in the RH.

The next section is marked ƒ... dont play it at the same level as the preceding bars!! Also, use the first two chords as an upbeat to the 3rd, being the first beat of the bar. Like in the beginning of the piece, work towards the first beat by means of a crescendo. This section is marked "INTENSO"... I feel no tension or passion here... This piece translates as "Dance of the beautiful woman"... you can imagine with what sort of inspiration and passion Ginastera wrote this piece. That needs to be conveyed in the performance hereof. These chords for me, should sound like someone is weeping their heart out, yelling their pains to whoever finds the time to listen. Dont just play these notes!! Listen to them, and sing!

As an afterthought, I have attached a song from the soundtrack of Frida. The middle of this song relates quite well to what I am trying to describe in the middle of this piece.

With the return of the theme in 3rds. I will once again quote my teacher on this (I hope my translation is ok) "Miss the good times, that are long, long gone"
I quite like your sound production there. When you get to the 'Rit Poco' and the 'Rit Molto', no need to emphasize that counter-melody in the RH. It is there already, so if you just play it, it will be heard. The more important melody is the top line of the RH.

Take your time in the last 2 bars!! Molto Lento= Very slowly!

Overall, I like your performance. Your sound and musicality is good, you must just listen to yourself more critically. Its good that you record yourself. Well done on a good performance! My critique is only so extensive as I play the piece myself.. let me know what you think. (if you agree/disagree etc)

Good luck in the future,
All the best,
Nia

[ce nedra]

Oy! I didn't do this for my own health, nor because I like staying up till 1am analysing someone elses playing. What do you think? Do you agree with my comments? Disagree? Why?

I have a good mind to just remove my post, if it serves no purpose. I did it for your benefit, you could atleast acknowledge it.

[cjp_piano]

I love this piece, working on them right now actually   

I pretty much agree with ce nedra.  I prefer it a bit slower, take your time with stretching the RH melody.  There are sometimes that you DO take time, but it's not a gradual rubato, there's just all of the sudden a pause before a note or all of the sudden faster for 2 notes, just be careful.

At the end, be sure to slow down at the "rit. poco", I don't think you did at all.  Then it's "rit. molto" which is MUCH!  It should slow down alot!  And then "molto lento" is very very slow.

Dance of the graceful young lady is how I translated it, but it seems so sad doesn't it?  Maybe she lost a love or something?

Anyway, good job, well done, just be careful of the pacing and rubato.

[wzkit]

Thanks for your detailed and insightful comments. I only just saw this, so I did not reply earlier

Ce nedra gives some good pointers on the introductory bars in the LH, and phrasing in the RH. These are valid points which should have been observed, but somehow did not come out well in the recording.

On the question of tempo, one of the recordings seems quicker than the other, if I'm not wrong. My natural instinct was to play it slower than you hear now, but then again, the actual tempo taken does vary with my mood and state of mind on the day itself. I could slow it down somewhat, but the music still has to move. I listened to a number of recordings of this piece, by Argerich, Sergio Tiempo, and a couple of others, and I realised, they never took it that slowly. So the lesson I took away was not to play it too slowly, always let it move forward.

I would agree that there could be some more room for rubato. And towards the end, definitely should have slowed down much more. But not that much more rubato than what you hear now- and I'm usually criticized for too much rubato in other music. I thought that it flowed pretty nicely as it is, perhaps I might have slowed down a little more here and there, but overall I would still keep the basic interpretative framework.

Also I agree on the need for a constant crescendo in the second section. Well I did try to add in these dynamic contrasts, but keeping them rather subtle in order to reserve the real fortissimos for the climax. Also perhaps they didn't come off too well in the recording - the piano is not yet totally broken in, so perhaps the full dynamic range didn't come off as it should have.  And maybe the room acoustics played a part too - it is a 6 foot grand piano in my bedroom, so there really isn't sufficient space for the sound to bloom fully (though I like it as it is, especially in the soft passages)

Similar issue with the part leading up to the climax , marked forte. I wanted some contrast, but not to "yell" it out. Yes it is INTENSO, I did try to bring it out, but as I said, I did not feel the need to exaggerate too much. Perhaps it is true that I could bring it out a little more, but still I would not throw in everything at this point. I think there still needs to be enough reserve for the real climax at the end of the second page. I wanted to give the impression of more intensity, but not to the extent of yelling it out at that point. Still wanted some room to phrase, play at a mezzo forte/mezzo piano for awhile before finally building up to the real climax. My point is that I never felt the need for  all the dynamic contrasts  to be played "in your face", but rather more subtlely.

All things considered, my interpretation in this recording is a much more "straight" one compared to what ce nedra and though hopefully not so straight as to sound robotic! I could of course exaggerate and add in more rubato, but that would have me changing to a totally different interpretative framework. Not that its not impossible, but I just didn't feel it in me at that time.   I'll go back to this piece and try out some of the suggestions mentioned here, though what cjp and ce nedra have in mind seems to be quite a different interpretative framework  I'll to end off by saying that there's always room for different interpretative framework(s) of the same piece, and its always good to keep an open mind to explore the other possibilities out there!

[pianistimo]

very beautiful harmonies!  u are pleasant to listen to.

ps i like the way ur hands talk to each other.

[cjp_piano]

wzkit - -  You don't have to defend your recording or say that it would have sounded better if it weren't a 6 foot grand in your bedroom. 

Anyway, I guess what I really meant with prefering it slower (which is just MY preference), was that it shouldn't sound rushed at the beginning.  It's strange how you could play something 2 times with the exact same tempo, but somehow one seems faster and one seems slower. 

You know when you are flying in an airplane or driving on the highway how things really far away seem to pass by rather slowly, but things that are close speed by?  Even though you pass them at the same speed, the one viewed from a distance seems to gradually make it's way past. 

So I feel that some music (like the beginning of this piece) lends itself to be viewed from a distance.

Hm, not sure if that analogy works . . . 

I'm simply typing my thoughts.

[wzkit]

wzkit - -  You don't have to defend your recording or say that it would have sounded better if it weren't a 6 foot grand in your bedroom. 

Anyway, I guess what I really meant with prefering it slower (which is just MY preference), was that it shouldn't sound rushed at the beginning.  It's strange how you could play something 2 times with the exact same tempo, but somehow one seems faster and one seems slower. 

You know when you are flying in an airplane or driving on the highway how things really far away seem to pass by rather slowly, but things that are close speed by?  Even though you pass them at the same speed, the one viewed from a distance seems to gradually make it's way past. 

So I feel that some music (like the beginning of this piece) lends itself to be viewed from a distance.

Hm, not sure if that analogy works . . . 

I'm simply typing my thoughts.

Apologise if I came across as sounding defensive - didn't intend it as such (although it IS true that the dynamics are limited by the room acoustics).. I think your analogy of distance is quite apt, and the way you put it, it does make alot of sense. You're right that the first section of the piece could be a little more languid I think, and it would still work very well.  The trick is being able to do so without disrupting the sense of forward motion, not something I find too easy in this piece. Maybe it needs a little rethink.


 

[quasimodo]

I'm currently learning this piece and the first Danza as well.
Your performance is cool, yet you can improve it. I mostly agree with the comments that you can take it slower. I don't really like the Argerich tempo. This piece gives more at slower pace.
Also your rubato is too cliched, too regular. Your ff is still shy and don't break the flow at this place.
Anyway, great job!

[dorfmouse]

What a lovely piece! Thank you. Warm and wistful ... I want to learn it right now but can't find the score on any of the usual free sites.    More  money will be spent, I foresee.
Are the other danzas as beautiful?

[ce nedra]

Here are the Danzas for you..

The other 2 are... um.. not so gorgeous... I enjoy them though. Just took them to a masterclass and played them for Joseph Banowetz.. he had some very interesting things to say. Anyway, enjoy!


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[cjp_piano]

Here are the Danzas for you..

The other 2 are... um.. not so gorgeous... I enjoy them though. Just took them to a masterclass and played them for Joseph Banowetz.. he had some very interesting things to say. Anyway, enjoy!

Not so gorgeous?  You just mean that they are wonderful in another way, right? lol

Any insights that you want to share from your master class experience?  I'm working on these pieces right now as well and would be interested in what he had to say