Reading the staff

[pizno]

I'm sure there have been a million posts about this, but I'm new to teaching, so haven't seen them.  I get the feeling that Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge is outmoded.  Why is this?  I have looked at a few different methods and can't really find a solid way to read the staff.  What do you all do?

Thanks so much for your help. 

Pizno

[jpianoflorida]

every good boy does fine....      FACE,   bass clef:all cows eat grass, Good boys do fine always

I never learned using these ,,i just learned what the notes were, but i still use these saying with students..they work..

[hyrst]

I remember being little and trying to learn Every Good Boy Deserves Fruit and the bass Good Boys Deserve Fruit Always - and it used to confuse me no end!  Even having to learn two different rhymes for the bass and two for the treble was a lot to remember.

I try and teach my students based on things that caused me problems as a child.  (Another one was learning thumb - 1st finger - always goes on middle C.  As a 4 or 5 year old, when my teacher then tried to change hand positions, I got very confused and felt like I had been lied to.  Before, she had been so strict about thumb on middle C - then she changed the rules!  So, I don't teach note reading by middle C position, or F or G  position, or anything like that!  I am still finding out if it works in the long term, but it does seem to - the way I teach is that the beginner can use any fingering, even thumbs under across 5 notes, so long as they have thought about the fingering and the hand position and the timing and notes are correct.)

Most of my students I teach using stepping up from the bottom line, and they pick up the letter names after some experience (it means only having to learn two letter names and one rule of stepping, to start reading any note at all).  They follow interval patterns based on the first note they read, and follow the patterns (that is what we do as more advanced readers, after all).  For those who struggle with the reading, or their playing is ahead of their reading, I do teach FACE and All Cows Eat Grass.  The lines are then a matter of stepping up or down from the space.

This is how I teach because of my own experiences in learning to read.  I have had some primary school kids come back to lessons and they have been taught the old mneumonics at school.  I admit it does help them - but mostly in theory exercises.  It doesn't seem to make much difference to their sight-reading fluency.  The old rhymes are obviously still 'in', in some places.

Annah

[sarahlein]

I've never used acronims (is that what they're called?) for learning/teaching notes.
I teach interval recognition right from the beginning and using that with keyboard topography my students learn to reasonably recognize the notes on the stuff within the first week of lessons!

read more here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2577.msg22247.html
(Keyboard topography – how to find notes by touch)


https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2406.msg20820.html
(the grand staff)

Also remember, one of the best ways to learn to note read is writing the notes on the stuff yourself eg. have your students copy, a little at a time perhaps, the piece they are currently learning. That will have the additional benefit of recognizing patterns and memorizing it at the same time-all that away from the piano!

[leucippus]

When I started the piano I already knew how to read the treble clef from having played other instruments.  So all I needed to do was learn the base clef.  At first, started out using the standard little phrases to remember the notes.

But Then!  I realized that the bass clef is nothing more than the treble clef shifted down by one space! Well, ok, maybe an octave and a space.  But the fact that it's an octave lower has nothing at all do to with reading it.   The fact that it's a space lower has everything to do with reading it.

Now I simply see the bass clef as nothing more than the treble clef shifted down by one full space.  Once I had that insight I no longer had any problems finding the notes on the base clef.  Well, maybe in the early going, it does take a little bit of getting used to actually "seeing" the treble clef shifted down by one space.  But once you get that visual in your head it's a done deal.  There's nothing more to learn if you already know the treble clef.

I have never seen it suggested to view the bass clef in this way.  This is something that I just happened to realize on my own purely by accident.  And once I did, all my troubles reading the bass clef vanished.

This unorthodox method may be frowned upon for all I know.  But it works for me.

[hyrst]

Leucippus,
That's how I teach my students reading form the bottom line (the bass is G and the treble E).  Conceptually, it is a little difficult for the younger ones - although it seems like it should be easier.  However, my adult begginners can grasp the concept and it does help them with developing their reading.  It reduces any unrelated rote learning.

However, I think you proabably found it extra easy because you could already read the treble.  I do think it is a worthwhile concept - it is how we would learn to read the tenor clef, for example, when we know the treble.  That is a standard approach once one clef can be read.

[eastcountypiano]

The older kids I use Every good boy, but some it just slows them down, they don't want to figure out the saying, then figure out the note.  I also use the notes going up the staff mean notes going up the piano, and repetition.  The very young students are just learning to read, so the Every good boy, etc., does not work well with them.  I use a lot of repetition, and flash cards.

[m1469]

I start by having them memorize what I call the "musical phone number" (and before this, they have already learned all the names of the white notes and how to find each of them on the piano).  I have them repeat after me each letter in sequence until they have said aloud the entire 7 letters :

G  -- G
GB -- GB
GBD -- GBD
GBD F -- GBD F
GBD FA -- GBD FA
GBD FAC -- GBD FAC
GBD FACE -- GBD FACE


The next aim is to say this from memory (it can be done almost immediately after they learn it, for most people).

The next aim is to be able to say this backwards.

And the final aim is to be able to say this backwards or forwards, starting from anywhere within the sequence and arriving back to where one started, all from memory.  For example, I may have them start at "A" and tell them to go backwards : AFDBGEC

This single musical phone number will eventually allow them to read any note on the entire Grand Staff, both lines and spaces alike, and even ledger lines !  And I do start with the entire Grand Staff as thee staff.  I do not separate out into "treble clef" and "bass clef" (I also do not teach the clefs as "treble" and "bass" but as "G clef" and "F clef"). 

Then I pull out a big foam board with a Grand Staff on it and starting at the bottom of the staff, we name all of the lines up to the top (with a red line drawn in for middle C -- In this photo, it's difficult to see the "middle c" red line in the middle of the staff, but it's there.) :



Then I bring out another big foam board with a staff drawn on it, and I set that on the back of the piano keys.  This shows them how the staff relates to the piano :



Then we play some games aimed at engraining the tools to find the names of the notes (and it REALLY works !).  One of the favorites is one that I have just started with them.  I made a spinner that has all of the letters of the musical alphabet on it, and bought a magnet/white board on which I drew a permanent grand staff :



They spin and whichever letter it lands on, we find that letter in line notes (we start with line notes and when those are mastered, we go to space notes) and then we place a magnet on that line (I have found that using these magnets works much better than having the student draw the notes in because it is much more precise and takes way less time -- especially for the little ones who are just learning how to do any of this stuff (including writing and drawing)). 

We also start memorizing "landmark notes" -- G2, F3, G4, F5.   They know the bottom line of the Grand Staff because that's how the "musical phone number" begins, and then they know the "F" line up from that because the "F clef" reminds us with its two dots where that line is.  They know the "G" line in the treble clef area because the "G clef" reminds us, and they learn the top line "F" as it follows a recognizable pattern of GFGF.   I also have them learn "middle c" as a landmark note at this stage :



It's amazing to me how quickly they start to find their way around the staff at this point.  And they love it, too !  .

Then, we continue integrating how this all fits into relating the staff to the piano.  For this I play another game with them where I hide flashcards in various places around the room.  We start with flashcards that only have line notes on them, and I leave the second big foam board up on the piano while we play this game.  They have to find the cards one at a time (and we often incorporate a game of "hot and cold" into the finding process (they LOVE this)), and first they name the note, but then they find exactly where it is on the piano using the big foam board as a reference.

On top of this, I will give them sheets to take home that ask them to name the line notes on the staff.  I used to do this without any supplement games, and it took WAY longer for them to learn what they are doing.  The games cut everything down into a fraction of the time.  I also start to have them read music that focuses on line notes and we go through the music together, highlighting the "landmark notes" in specific colors.

Somewhere in here we will talk about intervals, and I start simply with them learning the difference between 2nds and 3rds.  They learn how to play this on the piano, but then they learn how to recognize the difference on the staff.

This is where I am at with all of this.  In the process they are learning to see the "Grand Staff" as a single entity, reading from the bottom to the top (which is a good skill to have for sight-reading).  They are also learning exactly how this relates to the keyboard topography.   All of this combines together to create a very full experience for them.  I will often have all of these activities in a single lesson -- one activity helping the other(s) out.

Hope this helps .


m1469

[thalbergmad]

Sounds like fun to me.

Sign me up for a term.

Thal

[deirdre12]

I love reading about how all of you teach in your own ways!

For the treble clef, I use Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge and FACE.  For the bass clef, I use George Bush Drives Fast Always (because I find that two sentences with the word BOY in them confuse the kids) and All Cows Eat Grass.  We do lots of work on my white board finding and naming notes.  Another game I really like to play with them is to place small candies on various notes on the piano.  Beginner students can name the notes to me - if they get the note right, they get the candy and if they get it wrong, I eat it!  For older students, they can draw the notes on the staff.

Deirdre

[nicco]

Great post mayla! 

[pizno]

THANKS SO MUCH MAYLA!  I was thoroughly entertained and educated!  This was very very helpful.  I am starting with having them find all the Cs on the piano, then all the Bs, etc... and I time them each week, and record it (this is a Jane Tan technique) and we will eventually move to doing the same with intervals.  I made a foam board like the one you have done last year, after reading that suggestion on this forum.  I forgot all about it - I'll have to get it out, and I will definitely have to get a magnetic board with magnets.  I like the clock, too.  Or, they could reach into a hat.  Running around the room looking for flashcards, what a great idea.

Piz

[m1469]

Oh, Pizno, I am happy you found it helpful .   You are quite welcome.  Everything I mentioned is either exactly or some variant of things I have read or watched on video here at the forum, or read in some book (recommended from the forum  ).  Bernhard has been a big inspiration for me, as well as other posters.  I just found some things that inspired me and either worked as they were or helped me figure something out that worked better for me.

Happy teaching,
m1469 

[dannyc]

m1469 I can see your methods would work well with children. I am currently only teaching adults at the moment so I find that the methods I was taught work well for them. i.e FACE & Every Good Boy Deserves Fruit / All Cows Eat Grass & Good Boys Deserve Fruit Always...

Having said that I agree with Deirdre that the double use of the word "boy" will confuse the clefs. Bearing this in mind I invented my own accronym for the left hand lines (based in the UK it'll appeal more no doubt) George Best Dribbles Fast Always - or as someone else suggested George Best Died From Alcohol - which is another lesson in itself 

[m1469]

Actually, it works very well with adults, too.  I teach it the same way as far as viewing the entire staff as one entity, not two separate things.  This is a philisophical point for me, as I think it is in their best interest to begin them seeing it this way.  It aids in reading no matter how old one is.  It also is a much more accurate concept of how the piano is represtented on paper.

There is nothing inherently childish about seeing how the staff fits on the piano keys as I have shown in my second photo.  And there is nothing inherently childish about identifying the notes on the staff with a magnet board (or drawing them in).  The learning process does not have be done with games because the content is solid, though there is always some kind of magic trick involved when it comes to helping something click for the individual.  It's just not as "fun" without the spinner (and this does actually weigh into the learning and absorption equation).  But, then again, neither is any other "adult method" that I have seen.

My primary goal is to get the indivual finding their way around the staff and piano, and seeing how the two relate, as fast and as efficiently as possible, no matter what age they are.  This particular method of learning the "musical phone number" is the best way that I have found thus far in order to achieve everything I have in mind.

I have found that learning the staves as two separate identities, while obviously possible, can cause problems down the road that must be solved by changing the individual's view of the staff into one entity anyway.  So, I figure, why not start there ?  It just doesn't make sense to me any other way, plus, the results have been great, and it's tough for me to argue with myself because of that. 

So I generally think, why not ?   



m1469


ps -- you may have noticed, too, that the musical phone number only has three letters that do not directly spell a word (and one that people love to use in their acronyms) --

GBD FACE

The frist three all rhyme, too, which can help.  But the rest is just the word 'face', so it's VERY easy for adults to grasp (especially adults because they know how to read), but it covers absolutely *everything*.

[zheer]

  The first thing i teach, if am asked to teach, is very simple. The alphabet, A B C D E F G, i then show them the the first A on the piano,ie the lowest A, i then ask the to name the next note, then the next note all the way up to G. So once they see the connection between the alphabet and the keys on the piano, they can name all the keys by simply repeating that pattern on the piano , A B C D E F G.
  The same applies to the notes on paper, ie the second space beeing A then line = B and so on. So basically i can teach an Adult haw to read music in five minuts, and a child in 10 minuts using this method.

[m1469]

I would be interested to sometime see a video of this, if you were willing .  As a matter of fact, as mario mentioned a while ago, it would be interesting for a lot of us to post videos if we could.   I will be getting a video recorder quite soon.


m1469

[zheer]

I would be interested to sometime see a video of this, if you were willing .  As a matter of fact, as mario mentioned a while ago, it would be interesting for a lot of us to post videos if we could.   I will be getting a video recorder quite soon.


m1469

   I see, well you know am not a qualified piano teacher, it is just that when i play for people, they say i wish i could do that and look haw complex it is. It is at this point that i try to convince them ,that it is not complex, and that they could learn the basic in five minuts. Unlike the teachers i have come across, who like to make the piano and music to be such a complex and bla bla  thing, only to make them-selves seem more important.

[jpianoflorida]

   I see, well you know am not a qualified piano teacher, it is just that when i play for people, they say i wish i could do that and look haw complex it is. It is at this point that i try to convince them ,that it is not complex, and that they could learn the basic in five minuts. Unlike the teachers i have come across, who like to make the piano and music to be such a complex and bla bla  thing, only to make them-selves seem more important.

hmnnn....not that complicated, can learn the basics in 5 minutes??    ok are you sure you are talking about the piano...because that's not possible!   you may learn where the keys are in 5 minutes, but that would be about it......anyone else want to comment on this?   and your last comment about "piano teachers making themselves more important"...you have no idea what you are talking about!   

[zheer]

    * shrugs *

[m1469]

Well, it might be possible for zheer to do it.  I would like to see it done, especially if it was in a way that the student learned it for good in 5 minutes.   I would definitely switch, no doubt about it.  Afterall, I don't really care how it's done, as long as it gets the person where they need to go without adding problems down the road.

I will say, zheer, that I truly didn't mean to sound condescending.  I have read in another post, one of the last times this subject came up, that somebody teaches the way you described and I have been curious if it may be better.    But, you know, there are some teachers out there who put an awful lot of effort into figuring out what might work for the individual, so it's pretty sad that you feel the need to bash them as a whole, including the ones that are here on the forum, just because of whatever it is that you are feeling.

Anyhoo, I will again drop out of this conversation and off the forum if we can't be productive, as I have realized it is a great waste of time should people go online just to argue and ridicule each other.  Who gains anything from that ?

So, yes, I am genuinely interested in learning more about the way you teach.  If I can have my students truly learn how to read and understand the piano in 5-10 minutes, I am onboard.


Thanks,
m1469

[zheer]

So, yes, I am genuinely interested in learning more about the way you teach.  If I can have my students truly learn how to read and understand the piano in 5-10 minutes, I am onboard.
Thanks,
m1469

    well obviusly learning the names of the keys and reading the staff is the very basics of piano playing. So yes provided the the person beeing tought has an average IQ, learning to read and name the notes should only take 5 - 10 minuts.
   Am glad you are passionata about teaching, and i truly believe that your piano students are lucky to have you as a teacher. However recently i have met a number of piano teachers and it was frightning what they were teaching and believing about some aspects of piano playing, now dont get me started on University teachers, it's  personal.
   Anyway good luck with you teaching, am sure your are a very good teacher better than most.

[sarahlein]

If I may ...

I teach the way m1469 discribed above. However I have also taught the way zheer mentioned.

Talking about the average student, I have found that most would prefer to count every single line and space until they reached the note they were asked to name. Despite them being additionaly shown how to work it out using only lines or only spaces. It took forever!

So for some years now I stoped using what zheer mentioned and I must say I've seen quite a difference! I put more emphasis also on landmark notes like m1469 already mentioned- I find that this helps to makes the "identifying" a lot faster!

And most students do "discover" that going from a space to the next line up that makes up the alphabet. In fact I had my 4 year old student the other day come with such an excitment to her lesson because she found out the alphabet "hidden" on the staff.
 

[hyrst]

I'm with Sarah on this one! 
I really appreciated what m1469 had to say and the effort in her post.  Thank you.

Cetainly if a person knows their alphabet from A to G, knows the bottom bass line is G and can identify the lines and spaces as steps, they can figure out the notes.  Being able to do this with fluency, and fast enough to actually follow a basic line of music without having to write down all the letter names is another matter altogether.  I guess that's where the landmark notes really make a difference.

I don't know what you have against teachers, Zheer, but I think your comments were unkind.  This was a very interesting thread.

[m1469]

Glad to see some more conversation here and people who are commenting from their experiences.

The one thing I find necessary is the landmark notes.  So, what I have been curious about is whether or not using what zheer describes would be best, but also having the landmark notes.  I don't know.  As I have thought about it, that is what I would do should I switch to that method.

I could just try it and find out, it's just that while zheer is correct to a degree, that it doesn't have to be so complicated and complex, it can be a little tricky and I don't want to risk getting somebody confused right off the bat.  That's why I am interested in longer-term affects.

I do see, zheer, how you could show people the basics in 5-10 minutes, but I am curious what happens in the days after that (and this has been my curiousity all along in this conversation).  And it sounds like they are not enrolled with you as a formal student, so perhaps you don't know.  If you do know, I would like to know too .


Thanks,
m1469

[jpianoflorida]

good point! you CAN show someone that in 5-10 minutes, but then what? they have to apply, learn fingering, learn how all the theory works, etc etc etc....some people may have a good "ear" and be able to figure the rest out, but generally it's not going to happen overnight-and most people need a teacher to help them learn it all....I agree some people may be able to "teach themselves" but that's a minority.

[zheer]

I do see, zheer, how you could show people the basics in 5-10 minutes, but I am curious what happens in the days after that (and this has been my curiousity all along in this conversation).  And it sounds like they are not enrolled with you as a formal student, so perhaps you don't know.  If you do know, I would like to know too .
Thanks,
m1469

   Like i said am not a piano teacher, but the first thing i try to do when i am asked to teach , is to convince him/her that learning to read and play music is very simple and that anyone can do it . So i promise them that it can be done in 5 - 10 minuts. Now you asked what happens in the day after, well the practical, ie how to sit, how to position the hand and how to beging the process of learning a simple melody.
   I cant remember how i started, but i remember the teacher giving me a work book called piano book 1, then book 2, then a number of short pieces, then Beethoven sonatas. Anyway dont get me wrong, am not trying to say anything bad about your method or to bash, infact you seem like a dedicated teacher.

[m1469]

   Like i said am not a piano teacher, but the first thing i try to do when i am asked to teach , is to convince him/her that learning to read and play music is very simple and that anyone can do it . So i promise them that it can be done in 5 - 10 minuts. Now you asked what happens in the day after, well the practical, ie how to sit, how to position the hand and how to beging the process of learning a simple melody.

Well, I mean that I wonder if it sticks or what kind of process they are going through after they learn some tools.  That's all.  I just wonder how long it takes them to get to a point where they are more or less knowing *instantly* what the name of a line or space is and where it is on the piano, without counting up or down as sarahlein describes.   Those are the sorts of things that I want to have some sort of foresight about when it comes to starting somebody with certain tools.

BTW, I agree with something Bernhard mentioned quite a while ago in that, a teacher is somebody who has a student.  You may not advertise yourself as a teacher in a formal way, but if people are learning from you, then you are a teacher.   

Also, thank you for responding to my questions.


m1469

[hyrst]

I think the reading process in the longer term is very individual - including what mental processes a person uses to locate the notes.  All my students are different.  Age makes some difference, but learning style seems to make the most.

The key for all the beginners seems to be recognising intervals and patterns, so once they know the notes they are starting a piece from, they can read the notes in relation to the previous notes.  The problem I have found with that, though, is it only goes as far as the memory and hand position go.  For example, I am not making a lot of progress with the hand position of one 5 year old boy - he has a shorter attention span and keeps lifting his hand off the keyboard after playing a note (he'd rather spend his time doing theory!).  Whenever he lifts his hand, he also loses connection with the previous note, so we are having to read one note at a time.  It makes the process MUCH slower.

But, I have several students who are younger than this who are reading well enough for simple tunes.  For them, I have combined reading by step with a few landmark notes.  The problem with the landmarks notes at this earlier age is matching what stands out on the staf (i.e. the Fs, Gs and Cs) with what stands out on the piano (i.e. the F and C).  There is too much inconsistency for the little ones to understand.  This is where I resorted to using teble E and lower G - fewer concepts.  It does take a longer time, and there is more chance of counting to the wrong letter (missing a line, or something), but it is simpler and more logical for the little ones.

The student who I taught using the old mneumonics is one who has now turned away from reading - the reason I am not sure about yet, but she does not have the same sense of interval and connection between notes.  She does have an outstanding memory for a 7 year old, and finds it easier to learn by rote.  I do think the lack of fluent reading has something to do with the disjointed way that she learnt the notes, though.  (We did it that way so she could sit her first theory exam.  The learning context was separated from the keyboard.)

The most amazing reader I have is a 10 year old girl who has been learning for less than a year.  I wish I could bottle whatever it is she has!  There is no real indication what process she uses, but I think it is probably the same as the more advanced readers - a combination of recognition of particular notes (essentially landmarks - but ones that are visually more noticeable to each individual, i.e. different self-learnt ones), and use of intervals - especially in chord structures.  These are the basis of the method I used to teach her, a combination of everything we have talked about.  She sight reads at a lower intermediate level, and there is no observable delay in recognising any notes, including leger lines.

In the long run, I think we need to support students in a process of individually discovering notes, but then we need to move them to relating notes to each other.  I think this might be the problem that comes from learning by focusing on spaces and lines separately - although leaning space and line notes might be needed if progress is slow, it is easy to remember FACE.  Perhaps this should fit in after learning by step, or beginning to learn by step (even if just a few notes, afte all, they mostly begin with the octave around middel C) - then there is a conceptual link established.  If notes are learnt by stepping, than there is a connection between them that supports the transfer onto the keyboard.

I think we then need to discover what landmarks work for each individual, and the differences could be related to the visual (on the keyboard or the staff position), the kinaesthetic (e.g. the notes they play more often, so they know the feel of that note better) or similar for the aural (they know some notes better because they have an affinity for that sound).  Offering our own logical structures can help start the process of discovery.

(Sorry this is a long post.)

[m1469]

Interesting post, hyrst.  Thanks for your thoughts.

I will say that fundamentally, I have a bit of a different take on some of this stuff than I think you do.  For example, I do not start anybody out in the standard "middle c" position.  I purposely wish for them to develop, from the very first moment they sit at the keyboard, a concept of the piano that is not spacially limited any more than the instrument itself is.  We travel everywhere on day number one, and their first piece aside from nursery rhymes, given to them within the first few lessons, includes several octaves worth of music.  And it is the same thing with the music reading itself.  From the very first moment they start, they are seeing the "Grand Staff" in its entirety, even ledger lines, and their concept of the piano and of the staff match each other.

Of course I supplement with varying concepts for the individual, but I have not found a student for which this basic format does not work at all.  If it's not working, I focus on trying to present it in clearer and/or more creative ways, which has seemed to do the trick so far.  I will admit that a few months ago I was reconsidering this method, but then as I went back over my reasoning and focused my efforts a little more, I found ways to present the ideas that seemed to bridge the gaps.

Basically, a person must learn how to comprehend notes that are side by side, and notes that skip.  I don't think it makes a huge difference which one comes first, other than the repertoire one is limited to in the beginning stages, based on those two options.  One of the things I *love* about learning to view lines and spaces separately is that it actually lays the groundwork for chordal structure.  And if I had to say which concept I felt was more complex for the student, between stacked notes and single notes, I would say stacked are.  I feel like they can learn notes that are side by side any day, while figuring out the concept of stacked notes (chords) may take a little more of a thought process.

Also, regarding the student keeping their hand on the piano, once again I have chosen the route that we go down for the purpose of avoiding what I percieve of as possible problems in the future.   What I most want for a student to grasp is principles, especially if the student is just beginning, and the younger they are, the truer that feeling is for me.  I am all about laying groundwork.

With that having been said, I always relate what they are doing with their hand to generalities in the music, and then back to their hand.  We learn to look at groups of notes before we play, and figure out what kind of "hand position" we might want based on the group of notes (not just because we are in "middle c" position).  This lays the groundwork for one's individual ability to make decisions on fingering, vs learning that they must keep their hands in a certain spacial region on the piano and when there, in a certain physical position.

There are a few main things I tell them at this point when they are putting their hands on the piano, and for all three of these, it only works initially when they are playing something in a five-finger position :

1.  Give each finger a home. 

No matter where they are, they are learning to use each finger and have each finger on the keyboard.

2.   Keep your pinky on the keys no matter what.

We make a "game" out of it and whatever music they happen to be playing, this game becomes the aim of the motion.  The moment they develop the ability to do this once, they have grasped the concept and I generally leave it from there.  Their hand begins to mold to this general position.

3.  Keep your thumb on the keys no matter what.

Sometimes I will say this one before the other.  But I have found that when they can do this with both their pinky and their thumb at once, which has always been done within a single lesson, the rest of the fingers are also staying pretty close to the keys.  Once they have accomplished it just once, we leave it.

I will admit though, I wait for the perfect time to introduce this for each student so sometimes it will be awhile.  Once they get it though, I have found that they develop a very natural hand position wherever they are on the keyboard, without much commotion from me.  And, from what I have witnessed, it is a far better position than when I used to spend time and effort trying to get my students to form the perfect hand shape and hold their wrists just a certain way and all of these things.

Anyway, I have rambled here .



m1469

[pianolist]

There is an old film which you would all enjoy, and which can be downloaded free from British Pathe. It's a wmv file, but I can't upload it here, because it's copyright. It shows the English composer, Herman Darewski, with a group of children in the 1930s. He allocates different animals to the notes of the scale. It's all very sweet!

https://www.britishpathe.com/product_display.php?Search.x=0&Search.y=0&searchword=darewski+tears

You have to proceed through the shopping basket process, but there is no charge for the low-resolution preview version. There are also countless other piano films of the period to be found on the site, all similarly free.

[hyrst]

Thanks pianolist.
Thanks, too, m1469.

I don't actually use middle C position (as a starting place for hand position or keyboard geogaphy) - remebering what it was like to learn as a young child, I don't believe in teaching that way.  My first lesson always starts with the alphabet, beginning on lowest A and playing every note on the piano.  We then move to crossing over hands and playing C and F up and down the piano and then C D E, etc.  I teach them to cross over hands well before any other hand position.  I find that this encourages lifting hands and wrists properly without trying to force any unnatural positions.  I then teach about reading steps and skips before locating any specific note name to the symbols - I use no lines or only 1 line at this point. 

I do think middle C is an easy note to learn, though - both reading and finding it on the piano, so I tend to use this as one of the first notes for beginners (it is also the first reading note in most lesson series.  I use a variety of these books, as I am still developing my own portfolios of music for beginners - I write something when a student needs something in particular.  I have written all the pieces for the 2 to 3 year olds because the books are inappopriate.)  It seems natural then to develop the concept of reading steps and skips either side of middle C - although the kids seem to find problems associating middle C with the staff - which is probably where presenting the grand staff as a unit is a better way to go.   (I will experiment with this. ) For some reason, the kids seem to think there is an extra space between middle C and D - I don't understand why and it really holds up their reading.

m1469, I am interested in knowing more about your 'methods' (for want of better words).  So, if you are happy to give your response to what I have explained, I would be appreciative.

I had actually been considering reverting to teaching a fixed hand position, wondering if some of these earlier issues with staying on notes was caused by my avoidance of these methods.  I do what you seem to do - I talk with the student about the most comfortable place to put their fingers, so they can reach all the notes in a phrase.  (However, I haven't had them keep contact with the keys - although I have tried.  I think one of the main problems with this 5 year old is that he has limited attention - he treats the piano like work, but theory like games.) 

If they choose to put thumbs under, I let them.  We try different fingerings for phrases even from the first lesson.  I want to separate the concepts of finger numbers from letter names as much as possible.  I also don't work a lot on hand position until they are reading fluently and beginning to need more specific technique - such as developing staccato and legato differences (timing and order of this stage is different with every student).

Apart from keeping place with the notes, to support following the music, is there any other important reason for teaching the kids to keep fingers located on the keys?  Thanks for you feedback.

[chocolatedog]

Actually, it works very well with adults, too.  I teach it the same way as far as viewing the entire staff as one entity, not two separate things.  This is a philisophical point for me, as I think it is in their best interest to begin them seeing it this way.  It aids in reading no matter how old one is.  It also is a much more accurate concept of how the piano is represtented on paper.

There is nothing inherently childish about seeing how the staff fits on the piano keys as I have shown in my second photo.  And there is nothing inherently childish about identifying the notes on the staff with a magnet board (or drawing them in).  The learning process does not have be done with games because the content is solid, though there is always some kind of magic trick involved when it comes to helping something click for the individual.  It's just not as "fun" without the spinner (and this does actually weigh into the learning and absorption equation).  But, then again, neither is any other "adult method" that I have seen.

My primary goal is to get the indivual finding their way around the staff and piano, and seeing how the two relate, as fast and as efficiently as possible, no matter what age they are.  This particular method of learning the "musical phone number" is the best way that I have found thus far in order to achieve everything I have in mind.

I have found that learning the staves as two separate identities, while obviously possible, can cause problems down the road that must be solved by changing the individual's view of the staff into one entity anyway.  So, I figure, why not start there ?  It just doesn't make sense to me any other way, plus, the results have been great, and it's tough for me to argue with myself because of that. 

So I generally think, why not ?   




m1469


ps -- you may have noticed, too, that the musical phone number only has three letters that do not directly spell a word (and one that people love to use in their acronyms) --

GBD FACE

The frist three all rhyme, too, which can help.  But the rest is just the word 'face', so it's VERY easy for adults to grasp (especially adults because they know how to read), but it covers absolutely *everything*.

I use a similar idea - inspired by Bernhard! - but my musical phone number splits the notes into GBDF ACE, which is the same split as in a tutor book from a long time ago - Jibbidy F & ACE. if anyone remembers it......If you climb up the lines it goes GBDF ACE GBDF, and if you climb up the spaces, it goes ACE GBDF ACE. I haven't made all the resources you have yet but I have the staves and the large stave to put behind the piano, although I can't take this into school with me easily so I only tend to use it for my private pupils.

[chocolatedog]

If I may ...

I teach the way m1469 discribed above. However I have also taught the way zheer mentioned.

Talking about the average student, I have found that most would prefer to count every single line and space until they reached the note they were asked to name. Despite them being additionaly shown how to work it out using only lines or only spaces. It took forever!

So for some years now I stoped using what zheer mentioned and I must say I've seen quite a difference! I put more emphasis also on landmark notes like m1469 already mentioned- I find that this helps to makes the "identifying" a lot faster!

And most students do "discover" that going from a space to the next line up that makes up the alphabet. In fact I had my 4 year old student the other day come with such an excitment to her lesson because she found out the alphabet "hidden" on the staff.
 

Yes I used to teach like Zheer too - it may make initial understanding very quick but pupils were forever counting up to find notes from C and never truly learning independently where the notes are - landmarks are better, I think...... so now I teach using Bernhard's method of finding all the Cs then the Fs then the Es Bs etc and the few pupils I have recently started like this don't have to count up from C every time they want to find G, for example.......

[hyrst]

So, it seems that it might take longer to learn notes by their individual placements (or in groups, like all the Cs and so on), but that it facilitates more efficient reading in the medium or possibly even longer term?  That's the conclusion I am coming to.

[m1469]

Yes, as I mentioned before, many of the ways I teach this stuff was inspired by Bernhard and other posters on this forum.  I don't see myself changing the way I teach the names of the white keys any time soon.

I did add one thing to this "method" that I have found to be quite useful.  Here is the order that I go in :

C  (left of the 2 blacks)
F   (left of the 3 blacks)

E   (right of the 2 blacks)
B   (right of the 3 blacks)

D   (middle of the 2 blacks)
 
Then here is the little addition that I made.  I decided to try teaching the two middle notes of the 3 blacks at once, as though together they formed a single note called "GA" .  I just have them press both notes together while they say "GA" and they go all the way up the keyboard and back down like this. 

Then I will ask them which note they think is "G" and which note they think is "A" and often they just guess the correct way.  If they don't guess it correctly then I go ahead and tell them, but it seems to always make sense and stick immediately.   I may then have them find these individually as they found the others before, but they don't seem as confused this way.  Of course, we always have a review in the next lesson, and I send them home with a sheet that asks them to identify the notes on the keyboard in almost exactly the same way that I presented it in their first lesson.

They do seem to learn this and have it stick within about 10 minutes (I have never timed it, but they always learn all the white notes in the first lesson along with various other things).


Chocolatedog -- You may want to consider something like this for school :



It is a bait box that I use to cart around many different things as I have one day that I travel to another town and teach there.  It holds a lot of stuff and I have found a way to take with me a white/magnet board, a fold up staff that will sit on the back of the piano keys, and many, many more things including little percussion instruments and so on.



Can you tell I like images ? 


m1469

[chocolatedog]

Yes, as I mentioned before, many of the ways I teach this stuff was inspired by Bernhard and other posters on this forum.  I don't see myself changing the way I teach the names of the white keys any time soon.

I did add one thing to this "method" that I have found to be quite useful.  Here is the order that I go in :

C  (left of the 2 blacks)
F   (left of the 3 blacks)

E   (right of the 2 blacks)
B   (right of the 3 blacks)

D   (middle of the 2 blacks)
 
Then here is the little addition that I made.  I decided to try teaching the two middle notes of the 3 blacks at once, as though together they formed a single note called "GA" .  I just have them press both notes together while they say "GA" and they go all the way up the keyboard and back down like this. 

Then I will ask them which note they think is "G" and which note they think is "A" and often they just guess the correct way.  If they don't guess it correctly then I go ahead and tell them, but it seems to always make sense and stick immediately.   I may then have them find these individually as they found the others before, but they don't seem as confused this way.  Of course, we always have a review in the next lesson, and I send them home with a sheet that asks them to identify the notes on the keyboard in almost exactly the same way that I presented it in their first lesson.

They do seem to learn this and have it stick within about 10 minutes (I have never timed it, but they always learn all the white notes in the first lesson along with various other things).


Chocolatedog -- You may want to consider something like this for school :



It is a bait box that I use to cart around many different things as I have one day that I travel to another town and teach there.  It holds a lot of stuff and I have found a way to take with me a white/magnet board, a fold up staff that will sit on the back of the piano keys, and many, many more things including little percussion instruments and so on.



Can you tell I like images ? 


m1469

Slight problem - I already take 3 bags full of music to use!!!! (For myself if pupil doesn't show, plus for pupils.........  ) so I'm quite weighed down as it is....... my arms are nearly longer than a rugby player..........(apologies to any rugby players out there........ )

[m1469]

Chocolatedog, I want to condense you ... hee hee  .   Well, I understand and I am not offended (very much) at your rugby comment  .  Anyhoo, is there any way that you can condense the music you bring with a couple of binders and into one bag that you have over your shoulder ?  I do have another big bag full of music that I carry with me over my shoulder, but then I have a free hand to carry my magical music box.  I find the tools are quite necessary and help the concepts so much that I found a way to make it work.  Just a thought. 


m1469

[m1469]

From hyrst (sorry, I was having trouble with the quote function) :

I don't actually use middle C position (as a starting place for hand position or keyboard geogaphy) - remebering what it was like to learn as a young child, I don't believe in teaching that way.  My first lesson always starts with the alphabet, beginning on lowest A and playing every note on the piano.  We then move to crossing over hands and playing C and F up and down the piano and then C D E, etc.  I teach them to cross over hands well before any other hand position.  I find that this encourages lifting hands and wrists properly without trying to force any unnatural positions.  I then teach about reading steps and skips before locating any specific note name to the symbols - I use no lines or only 1 line at this point. 

I do think middle C is an easy note to learn, though - both reading and finding it on the piano, so I tend to use this as one of the first notes for beginners (it is also the first reading note in most lesson series.  I use a variety of these books, as I am still developing my own portfolios of music for beginners - I write something when a student needs something in particular.  I have written all the pieces for the 2 to 3 year olds because the books are inappopriate.)  It seems natural then to develop the concept of reading steps and skips either side of middle C - although the kids seem to find problems associating middle C with the staff - which is probably where presenting the grand staff as a unit is a better way to go.   (I will experiment with this. ) For some reason, the kids seem to think there is an extra space between middle C and D - I don't understand why and it really holds up their reading.

I find it odd that you first state that you think middle c is an easy one to learn, both on the piano and on paper, but then that the kids have trouble with this.  In any event, the reason people get confused by it is often because the first staff they see is a standard piano music staff that has an enlarged space between F and G clef.  If you introduce the Grand Staff as I have shown up above, they get used to how the Grand Staff is actually layed out and how middle C fits into this mix.  Try it and see .

I think it's absolutely fabulous that you are composing to suit your students' needs.  I have yet to really do this, though I plan to as I continue to consolidate my teaching plans.

I had actually been considering reverting to teaching a fixed hand position, wondering if some of these earlier issues with staying on notes was caused by my avoidance of these methods.  I do what you seem to do - I talk with the student about the most comfortable place to put their fingers, so they can reach all the notes in a phrase.  (However, I haven't had them keep contact with the keys - although I have tried.  I think one of the main problems with this 5 year old is that he has limited attention - he treats the piano like work, but theory like games.

 

This is why I have made the commands of keeping contact with the piano very specific.  If a teacher tells the student who is just learning to keep hands on the piano at all times, and then proceeds to manipulate the hand, whatever else it may be doing, it most certainly is not engraining a "proper technique," or at least not any quicker than how I have described above.   I have found that this approach leads to endless comments, reminders, and further manipulations needed from me as the teacher.  It's tiring for both the student and for the teacher, and doesn't seem to lead the both of them in the desired direction.

However, I have found that, as I mentioned above, by giving a very specific command in the form of a challenge "see if you can keep your pinky on the keys at all times" (for a specific (set of) repetition(s)) they suddenly have something very specific to focus on in a way that is completely within their control.  And it is the same with requesting this of the thumb.  And, once they get this, it tends to keep the rest of the fingers close, too, and it really doesn't take long.

The more specific and condensed, the better, I have found.  So a command to keep a single, specific finger on the keys, vs a command to "keep your hand on the piano" makes *much* more sense to anybody who is (nervously) staring at the piano-beast and trying to figure out how to make it go.

Apart from keeping place with the notes, to support following the music, is there any other important reason for teaching the kids to keep fingers located on the keys?  Thanks for you feedback.

Effeciency of intent, and then motion.  If a child were told by her parent that she could enter the pet store when it opened and choose out a new puppy, she would not then stand across a busy street and wait on the other side for the doors to swing open.  Instead she would stand as close to the door as possible so she could enter as quickly as her feet would carry her, since her sole intention of entering the store is to get to the puppy pin.


m1469

[hyrst]

Thanks for all your time and effort again, m1469.

Mmm, I think this is one of the teaching issues I have been trying to sort out.  I have used Middle C because it can be read as a starting note for going up or down on the piano without the use of the staff - middle C being unique in that it is the same symbol for the bass and treble.  The reason I thought it was easy was being able to give this symbol by itself and then one note is recognised.  The student doesn't have to worry about how many lines there are (and at 2 it's hard work counting all those lines -  I have a 2 year old student who recognised middle C, symbol and key, in only a few minutes - then we began working on applying rhythms to this one note - by rote and by reading note values. ) By this method, I have taught working out from that point by step. 

Perhaps this is teaching middle C position, except I do other exercises that involve using the whole keyboard and finding letter names across the whole keyboard, etc.  The other difference with the traditional middle C position is that I don't agree with fixing finger numbers to the keys (1 on C, etc) because it does lock the student into the centre of the piano and it can lead to mixing up letter names and finger numbers - which means not much reading is being learnt.

What I was having issues with, though, is the concept that the grand staff is a continuous entity.  I think in this way I am teaching the way I was taught - and thus the way I tend to think cognitively - not musically - when I am reading myself.  If I slowed down my reading processes, I am sure I would be thinking "bass C", "treble A", etc (very simply put).  I have tried to teach kids about the old 11 lines, but that doesn't seem to make sense to them - the way I have tried to present it, at least.  They seem to sigh with relief when we focus back onto one staff - so I didn't pursue that angle.  Maybe it's in the initial presentation of the lines - I introduce the lines by having 5 drawn on the floor that we stand in the spaces or on the lines and take steps up and down, before getting a little more random. 

So, at what point do you start calling the bass and treble?  OR is this why you use the white board against the keyboard to see where the lines fit compared to the notes?

I like your metaphor with the pet store :-)
I understand what you mean, but surely keeping fingers on keys doesn't overcome posture problems?  Isn't it possible that kids can keep fingers on the top of keys while resting palms on the fall board?  When I have suggested to the young boy I have mentioned that he does stay in touch with the keys, this has been the result - and because I don't focus on 'wrists up, fingers bent' (I teach specific techniques, but general posture and watch for any ongoing problems in how the hand position develops), I have only encouraged him to give his fingers a home key - and he usually chooses to cross his fingers over.  It's strange, but the younger kids seem to do that - I guess it's making more use of the middle, stronger fingers.

I didn't fully understand wht you meant by:
"This is why I have made the commands of keeping contact with the piano very specific.  If a teacher tells the student who is just learning to keep hands on the piano at all times, and then proceeds to manipulate the hand, whatever else it may be doing, it most certainly is not engraining a "proper technique," or at least not any quicker than how I have described above."  Would you mind explaining a little more, please? I am really keen to be the best teacher I can be, and it helps a lot by learning from others - rather than stumbling along looking for the best ways - reinventing.

THanks again.

[m1469]

What I was having issues with, though, is the concept that the grand staff is a continuous entity.  I think in this way I am teaching the way I was taught - and thus the way I tend to think cognitively - not musically - when I am reading myself.  If I slowed down my reading processes, I am sure I would be thinking "bass C", "treble A", etc (very simply put).  I have tried to teach kids about the old 11 lines, but that doesn't seem to make sense to them - the way I have tried to present it, at least.

I think it's just fine to think in terms of clefs (if I am understanding you correctly), but I have them thinking in terms of "clef areas/regions" of a single Grand Staff, rather than thinking in terms of two separate staves with a strange looking symbol on each one (btw, what does "treble" or "bass" mean to anybody just starting out ?  It's just a name they are told to associate with that particular staf, where as giving them their other names from the beginning --F clef and G clef-- actually have a discernable purpose, even for the complete beginner).

They seem to sigh with relief when we focus back onto one staff - so I didn't pursue that angle.

So can you imagine how difficult it can be for somebody who has spent 15 or more years reading them as two separate staves to be able to make that shift, as well as the resistence they will feel toward it ?  The thing is, without seeing the Grand Staff as one entity, one's reading ability will forever be stalled and in need of making the shift anyway.  This is why it must be *introduced* this way from the very beginning, in my opinion.  I have found it to be much less confusing for the students, actually, than trying to get them to understand it the other way.

Maybe it's in the initial presentation of the lines - I introduce the lines by having 5 drawn on the floor that we stand in the spaces or on the lines and take steps up and down, before getting a little more random.

 

That's a great idea.  And yes, how a person is initially starting out will stick with them for longer than they may want.  That's why it's so important to get them started on solid footing.  Anyway, why not draw 11 lines ?

So, at what point do you start calling the bass and treble?

 

When they have really grasped the names of the clefs as I introduce them, and what their purpose is, I start to casually use their other names and make no big deal of it whatever.  I simply start to call it "treble" or "bass" clef and begin to intermix the names.   They simply begin to pick up that this is just another name for this symbol (and I will tell them exactly that, very briefly, the first time I casually bring it up).  This happens in everyday language for young ones ALL THE TIME.  They suddenly hear a word that they didn't know before, and it can be immediately associated with something that's already meaningful in their life (which by this point, they are grasping what a staff is and what purpose a clef has -- it has meaning for them). 

As a side note, I will admit that I subtley integrate their general reading and verbal learning-skills into our lessons, too (along with math as well).  I do this for A LOT of reasons that I don't feel like getting into at the moment.  But, one of those reasons that I will comment on has to do with the fact that music has it's own verbal lingo, aside from being considered a language itself.

OR is this why you use the white board against the keyboard to see where the lines fit compared to the notes?

I don't have a real idea as to why this question went with your other, but, I will say that the reason I have the foam board against the piano keys is indeed for them to see how the lines (and spaces) fit in with the keys.

I will need to come back for the rest.



m1469

[m1469]

I understand what you mean, but surely keeping fingers on keys doesn't overcome posture problems?  Isn't it possible that kids can keep fingers on the top of keys while resting palms on the fall board?  When I have suggested to the young boy I have mentioned that he does stay in touch with the keys, this has been the result - and because I don't focus on 'wrists up, fingers bent' (I teach specific techniques, but general posture and watch for any ongoing problems in how the hand position develops), I have only encouraged him to give his fingers a home key - and he usually chooses to cross his fingers over.  It's strange, but the younger kids seem to do that - I guess it's making more use of the middle, stronger fingers.

Unfortunately, almost this entire paragraph is very unclear to me.   

I didn't fully understand wht you meant by:
"This is why I have made the commands of keeping contact with the piano very specific.  If a teacher tells the student who is just learning to keep hands on the piano at all times, and then proceeds to manipulate the hand, whatever else it may be doing, it most certainly is not engraining a "proper technique," or at least not any quicker than how I have described above."  Would you mind explaining a little more, please?

I am not clear on what you are wanting me to clarify  .  With both this paragraph and the one before it, I will be happy to answer any specific questions that you may have of me.  For that, however, it would probably be best to start another thread or to contact me in private as I believe we are venturing out of the scope of the topic of this thread.

THanks again.

You're welcome.



m1469 

[hyrst]

OK. THanks

[pizno]

m1469, you will be happy to know that for my lessons yesterday, I made a board exactly like yours, a magnetic dry-erase board, drew the staff on it, and had my students put the magnets on the lines, and find the notes on the piano.  I also made a clock, and had them spin to a note, then find it on both piano and dry-erase board.  It was a huge success.  It also has helped clarify, in my mind, what range of notes each student is comfortable with, and what we need to focus on next.  I have one 9 year old who this really appealed to.  She is definitely a game person, and though probably not the sharpest kid on the block, I think this is the way to reach her.  The following student is a year older, and could probably do just fine with any gimmicks.  That's OK, though, because she also responded to them, and when their lessons overlapped for a few moments, I had them testing each other while I went to the bathroom.  They were totally into it. 

This second student is excelling so fast I can hardly keep up with her.  She is 10 years old, and after 2 weeks I started teaching the her staff.   By 3 weeks, I gave her a piece to practice (her mom helped her, and she came back by week 4 with it memorized, and the dynamics perfect (!!!!).  My problem with her (not that it is really a problem) is that I need slow down and give her the basics of loose wrist, firm finger joints, etc....  this part she doesn't pick up quite as fast as reading music.  It is fascinating having a student like this!

Thanks so much for your tips - I have had a lot of fun with them.  I think the dry-erase board will serve us very well in the coming months.  I also taught GBD-FACE to one of my students - I'm curious how this will work!

By the way, the older sister (13)of the younger girl comes the same afternoon.  She arrived and said 'I forgot to practice'!  I said 'I hate it when that happens' and then said 'OK, you can listen to me practice'.  I did that for a bit, then decided I should probably teach her something, and we went over the same exact things we did last week.  OH well, this is the way it will go, I guess.  I can only hope that at some point she will decide to do it on her own.  I was able to teach her different ways to learn new music, so, maybe it was helpful in some way. 

Thanks again for all your help,

Piz

[hyrst]

Hi Pizno,
I have a ten year old like this - learning for 8 months and now playing the level of Bach's two part inventions.  From her first lesson, she memorised every piece within a week - I didn't even ask her to.  She still memorises about half of a new piece a week, at her current level, and has pieces under good control in about 3 weeks. 

The reason I mention her is the hand technique that you mentioned.  I pondered with my student about how much I should comment on her hand position.  At first, her playing was too delicate - her dynamic range was almost inaudible to soft.  This caused some insecurity in her playing.  I did make comments about important things, like not playing on the side of her little finger.  The things that I mentioned she corrected during the week - I only had to say it once.  I have also taught her the specific techniques for octaves, arpeggios, and other things that have come up in her pieces.  In the end, I didn't say much about the intitial hand position, but I haven't needed to.  Her hand position and technique have developed naturally as we have focused on the musical demands - phrasing, expression, etc. 

I wouldn't ignore real issues, but I am glad that I allowed her to develop naturally.

[pizno]

Hi Hyrst

Thanks for telling me about your student.  I think you are right, some of students hand and arm movements will develop on their own.  I hate the thought of not teaching them correctly from the beginning, though!  I started a student today who has studied Faber for 3 years, with a teacher who plays quite tensely himself.  I hope to correct her stiff movements, but I'm not experienced enough yet to know what the most effective way will be.  She seemed to really get what I said, though.

Piz

[m1469]

m1469, you will be happy to know that for my lessons yesterday, I made a board exactly like yours, a magnetic dry-erase board, drew the staff on it, and had my students put the magnets on the lines, and find the notes on the piano.  I also made a clock, and had them spin to a note, then find it on both piano and dry-erase board.  It was a huge success.  It also has helped clarify, in my mind, what range of notes each student is comfortable with, and what we need to focus on next.  I have one 9 year old who this really appealed to.  She is definitely a game person, and though probably not the sharpest kid on the block, I think this is the way to reach her.  The following student is a year older, and could probably do just fine with any gimmicks.  That's OK, though, because she also responded to them, and when their lessons overlapped for a few moments, I had them testing each other while I went to the bathroom.  They were totally into it. 

This second student is excelling so fast I can hardly keep up with her.  She is 10 years old, and after 2 weeks I started teaching the her staff.   By 3 weeks, I gave her a piece to practice (her mom helped her, and she came back by week 4 with it memorized, and the dynamics perfect (!!!!).  My problem with her (not that it is really a problem) is that I need slow down and give her the basics of loose wrist, firm finger joints, etc....  this part she doesn't pick up quite as fast as reading music.  It is fascinating having a student like this!

Thanks so much for your tips - I have had a lot of fun with them.  I think the dry-erase board will serve us very well in the coming months.  I also taught GBD-FACE to one of my students - I'm curious how this will work!

By the way, the older sister (13)of the younger girl comes the same afternoon.  She arrived and said 'I forgot to practice'!  I said 'I hate it when that happens' and then said 'OK, you can listen to me practice'.  I did that for a bit, then decided I should probably teach her something, and we went over the same exact things we did last week.  OH well, this is the way it will go, I guess.  I can only hope that at some point she will decide to do it on her own.  I was able to teach her different ways to learn new music, so, maybe it was helpful in some way. 

Thanks again for all your help,

Piz

Hi, Piz.  I am quite happy to have helped.


m1469 

[m1469]

I write something when a student needs something in particular.  I have written all the pieces for the 2 to 3 year olds because the books are inappopriate.) 

Hyrst, I just wanted you to know that you have inspired me to actually start writing music for my students, and actually, I am doing this right now !! 

Thanks,
m1469

[hyrst]

That's awesome! :-)  Thanks, m1469.

I also would like to let you know I used some of the new approach to staff reading with a 4 year old this afternoon.  I added the idea of the ten lines with middle C inbetween.  It went well.  She followed all the letters up by step, starting with bass space A.  We put letters on each line and space and found the names of letters on the lines and then of letters in the spaces.  She is a very bright child, but she went well and undrestood. 

[pizno]

Hi m1469 and Hyrst

I was just looking at my dry erase board and the magnets (I have posted letters on the front of each magnet) and thinking another variation of the clock game would be to have all the magnets on a table (my board is resting on a cabinet against a wall), mix them up, have the students close their eyes, pick one, and put it on the appropriate space on the board.  If you only wanted them to work in a small area on the staff to start, I suppose you could cover some of the staff with paper.  I might try this only because the whole thing would go faster.  In fact, this could be timed, to see how fast they could get them all on the board correctly.  I could also move the board over the the piano and also have them play the note on the piano.

Just another idea!
Can you explain to me what F2, G3, G4 etc... means?  I can't quite figure out the system.

Thanks - I am enjoying this discussion!

Pizno