chopin prelude #2

[pianistimo]

here's my first try at prelude #2.

[counterpoint]

Oh, that's funny. After all this "too slow!!! too slow!!!" pianistimo is now completely confused and plays the 2nd Prelude as it was an acoustical illustration of "The Hare and the Hedgehog"     

There seem to be some pieces, where you should play "as fast as you can" -
and others, where you should play "as slow as you can" (or even slower)

Prelude #2 belongs to the second group 

[pianistimo]

what's so funny?  the time signature is cut time.  you are counting in two instead of four.  it sounds like horses.  probably he was imagining the russians that were on horses - coming into his town in poland and reeking havoc.  everyone in disarray. 

what does the prelude remind you of?  i try to associate something.

what exactly does 'slentando' mean?

[counterpoint]

what does the prelude remind you of?  i try to associate something.

what exactly does 'slentando' mean?

It reminds me of a big, ill animal, Dinosaur or Whale, in his life-and-death struggle.

Slentando means the same as ritardando.

[pianistimo]

i think i like you, counterpoint.  can you play this 'big ill animal.'  i want to hear it.

thanks for helping me understand slendtando, too.  (did chopin just make that one up?  i've never seen it before).

[counterpoint]

i think i like you, counterpoint.  can you play this 'big ill animal.'  i want to hear it.

thanks for helping me understand slendtando, too.  (did chopin just make that one up?  i've never seen it before).

Dear Susan,

I don't know if I can play this big ill animal the way, I'm thinking of.  This piece is really hard to play, but I will try it in the next days...

I didn't know, that this Prelude is in alla breve, since the Paderewski Edition has a C (4/4) as time signature. In the commentary, they write:

Both manuscripts and GE (original German edition) all give the indication alla breve. We have however kept the bar in common time, C, as in EE (original English edition), as this is better suited to the character of the work and also corresponds better with the prescribed Lento.


So this is a really surprising remark for me,  I have to think about and try perhaps some other tempo as comparison.

[pianistimo]

sorry.  i have dover.  maybe there is some mistake on my part, then.  hmm.

i have paderewski for the etudes - but i found more stuff for a better price with the dover on the complete preludes.  i'm wondering if dover isn't very reliable then for precision.  also, there are a few notes i'm unsure about in some of the other preludes. 

well, what does the autograph manuscript (polish one) have to say?  paderewski wouldn't change that, would he?

i just looked to see what jstor would say about this and i found the eidlinger(sp?) preferred the french edition.  'chopin's presence in paris, which allowed him to correct proof sheets and successive impressions of the french first edition, whereas he had no control over the publication process in germany and england.  we therefore tend to priviledge the french first edition and later printings thereof.'  (this supports your view that the german - but i think also the english versions - were possibly suspect).

raoul pugno - a student of chopin's student 'george mathias' wrote an edition that had marked pedalling, etc. and tried to be truer to the autograph manuscript and way that chopin taught.

also, alfred cortot put footnotes in an edition for much of chopin's works.

[rachfan]

Hi Everyone,

To solve the mystery of the time signature:

The editorial committee of the Paderewski Edition in its commentary stated that the manuscripts, and the original Catelin et Cie Edition and the Breitkopf & Hartel Edition all showed  alla breve--as played by pianistimo.  However, the editorial committee retained common time "... as this is better suited to the character of the work and also corresponds better with the prescribed Lento."  I believe that was a very wise choice.

[pianistimo]

how could it be a wise choice if chopin did not indicate it on the autograph?  playing it slowly does make it sound like a large sick animal.

[rachfan]

Because the very definition of the tempo Lento is "slow", as has always consistently been the performance practice.  I've yet to hear this piece in recital or on a recording by anyone played fast. 

[pianistimo]

in any case - i rest my case.  i like it lento - alla breve.

no hard feelings.  here's a little something i found from some old sheets. 

[rachfan]

That is in the style of the old salon music of Gottschalk's time.  The title reminds us that lento alla breve is definitely a mystery of life.

[pianistimo]

i call a truce (even if the editions themselves are the mystery of life). 

[rachfan]

OK, I agree.  We can come out of the trenches and remove helmets, at least for this piece, haha! 

[pianistimo]

not yet.  you haven't played it for me.

[rachfan]

OK, here's me playing the Prelude No. 2, or the creeping catapilla.  You may find it a departare listening to accoustic versus electronic.  I do.   So you might want to listen to this twice.

[pianistimo]

definately a sick large animal.

[rachfan]

Possibly an elephant with indigestion.

[counterpoint]

Finally here is my version of the big, sick animal  (3:09  minutes  )   

plus the Prelude #5  (50 seconds)

Sorry, my piano is totally out of tune   

[pianistimo]

here's my take 3 of chopin prelude #5  - although i just figured out that the chord before the last has a G in it instead of an A (so it's not all an A chord).  chopin is so sneaky!

also, measure 17 - there's an A natural.  i think i have to work on that, too.

this prelude reminds me of chopin's somewhat indecision about george sand.  she was nice on the one hand - and then - kind of irritating on the other.  this piece reminds me of his indecision.

ps i figured you out counterpoint.  you're my teacher. ok.  play it the way it should be.  PLEASE.

**my casio output thingy gets hot and then gives this background static.  i have to wait for it to cool off to make a better recording.  and a better ending.

[counterpoint]

ps i figured you out counterpoint.  you're my teacher. ok.  play it the way it should be.  PLEASE.

Hehe, I didn't know, I am your teacher     

What's that "play it the way it should be.  PLEASE." ?

I play, as I think, it should be. As good as I'm able to play.

No.2 sounds nearly perfect with 3 mins to me (the tempo, not the sound of my piano  )

No. 5 should be still much faster as I played it.
Perahia plays dotted quarters around 92,  Pollini around 72.

[pianistimo]

i thought you were joking with both.  excuse me.  the first is WAY too slow and not even.  the second is too sporadic with the tempi.  it is atrocious.  i thought you were exaggerating what i was doing.

[pianowolfi]

@counterpoint: I like your no 5. This is the first time I really HEAR what's happening in this piece. Most of the pianists rush through it like mad. No 2 however is a bit extremely slow for my taste. Even if you indeed play lento you could also play in cut time. Like in no 4. Pianistimo's no 2 is definitely too fast, even for cut time. . Just my opinion

[pianistimo]

you can't drive a horse 2 mph and swipe someone with a long russian saber.  you have to have a rush.  listen again.  the horses.  the mayhem.  the stabbings.  the dead - quiet.  i hear a polish horseman chased and killed.  where he is stabbed is 'piano'  he falls over as he hears the other horses running away.

[pianowolfi]

Yeah well but these imaginations don't fit to me. Btw listening to these recordings and trying these pieces out for myself I figured out that there is a sort of dies irae fragment in no 2 in the accompaniment. Hee hee. I don't know if Chopin did that on purpose or not though...? Anyway fascinating

[pianistimo]

if you speed it up just slightly more - it fits.  interesting about the dies irae.

think of the tempo in two.  one e and a  two e and a...  the one and two are lento - even when speeded up more than i played it - (by a fraction).

[counterpoint]

@counterpoint: I like your no 5. This is the first time I really HEAR what's happening in this piece. Most of the pianists rush through it like mad.

Thank you so much for your support 

I think, it must be possible, to play no.5 really fast and keep it as comprehensible as in my moderate tempo. If I succeed, I will upload a better (faster) version.

No 2 however is a bit extremely slow for my taste. Even if you indeed play lento you could also play in cut time.

It's extreme slow, extreme sad and extreme hopeless.
Yes, I understand this Prelude like that. The most depressive piece of music I ever encountered.

[counterpoint]

you can't drive a horse 2 mph and swipe someone with a long russian saber. 

Pianistimo, you're totally right with this statement - but where did you get this story with the horse and the russian sabre from?
There are other Preludes, where this story would fit much better, for example nos 9, 12, 14, 16, 18. But why especially no.2   

[rachfan]

Hi counterpoint,

I agree with pianowolfi regarding the Prelude No. 2.  It is, in fact lento, but you play it much more largo.  Also, I notice that quite often you anticipate or precede the RH by sounding the LH first rather than playing the hands together on the beat.  Just my opinion.

[pianistimo]

my imagination.  i mean - when i play the major minor - it reminds me of jostling on a horse.  and the harmonies make it sound 'war-like.' 

i haven't played that many preludes.  yet.  can anyone play number 8?  i want to hear it.

ps  have any of you hear any of the recordings of andre wasowski?  supposedly he's the one that plays the mazurka's the way chopin intended.  students would get into trouble with chopin for not playing them in 3 - but then, apparently chopin himself would make the third beat quieter than the rest.  making it sound like 2 or 4.  wasowski, apparently (who, btw, was polish - per his name) understood everything perfectly and played as such.

[counterpoint]

Hi counterpoint,

I agree with pianowolfi regarding the Prelude No. 2.  It is, in fact lento, but you play it much more largo.  Also, I notice that quite often you anticipate or precede the RH by sounding the LH first rather than playing the hands together on the beat.  Just my opinion.

It's somewhat funny for me, that people tell me, how I do play 

I know, how I am playing - the slightest change of tempo (5 percent), the extreme tempo changes (500 percent), the delay of one hand compared to the other hand, these things are not random, I am doing all this in full control and awareness. If you don't believe me - I could show you my sheet music, where I have written it in with pencil. It may sound like it's uncontrolled and random - but it is not.

As I wrote somewhere else, people often tell me "you can't play it this way!"

But I can 

[pianistimo]

it wouldn't be so sad and depressive if you just got it over with and let the guy die.  after all - what about your signature?  the piece has grown on me by NOT playing it lento in 4/4 but lento in 2/4  (or rather largo).  ok.  mine is largo - but even yours in lento would be much more interesting than a sick animal.  who's going to listen to a sick animal very long?  it borders on hilarious. 

ok.  say you have  a recital and are playing these gorgeous preludes and come to this one.  it just ruins it for the rest of them.  played too slowly you have people dying of laughter and falling off their seats.  i mean - too slow is simply hilarious.

[rachfan]

Hi counterpoint,

First, I did assume correctly that you were playing the LH early rather than together with the RH, not unconsciously, but by choice.  Of that I had no doubt.

Just a bit of history.  (I'm old enough now where I remember history first hand, haha!)  The anticipation of the RH by the LH was very common practice in the 19th century, as you probably know.   The theory at the time was that by playing the LH octave or chord in isolation and in anticipation of the RH, it better established the rich harmonic underpinning in the ear of the listener, and could also be used for dramatic effect. 

Once the 20th century rolled around, there were some old school artists at the height of their careers, whose teachers harkened from the 1870s and 1880s and who instilled that same practice in their students.  So those artists carried on the tradition for awhile longer.  By the 1960s, the practice was considered somewhat archaic.  Since the 1970s, it's been classified as an undesirable mannerism in conservatories, private studios, and in recital halls alike.  I must admit, I was once guilty of it myself, but with some work, abandoned the anticipatory LH in the early 80s--and for good.  Thus, my own bias. 

You've probably read several good books on performance and pedagogy, where this mannerism is addressed.  So it's no surpise to you that this practice now enjoys a bad rap, and is quickly noticed and criticized by teachers, adjudicators, sophisticated audience members, music critics, etc.   It would almost certainly become a topic if noted in a master class as well.

On the other hand, there is also nothing wrong with being a maverick, swimming upstream, or preserving something which you believe is valuable.  So anyone here would fully agree with you that retaining the anticipatory LH is totally your call, especially if it gives you pleasure in performing music the way you like to play and hear it.   

[counterpoint]

You've probably read several good books on performance and pedagogy, where this mannerism is addressed.  So it's no surpise to you that this practice now enjoys a bad rap, and is quickly noticed and criticized by teachers, adjudicators, sophisticated audience members, music critics, etc.   It would almost certainly become a topic if noted in a master class as well.

Dear rachfan,

to say it straightforward: "c'est moi, qui fait la musique"

Other people - like adjudicators, sophisticated audience members, music critics, etc. - are free to criticise the way I am playing, but they will not make me change it. If they don't like it, they can easily avoid to hear me playing. 

When studying at the music university, I had the great luck to have a teacher, who gave me much freedom to experiment with these things. There were others, who were very hostile against it. That's life. In the end, it's you yourself, who has to be content with your playing. If they don't like it - it's their problem, not mine.

counterpoint


I found an interesting about rubato on the web

Tempo Rubato

by Ignacy Jan Paderewski


Chapter 28 in Success in Music and How it is Won by Henry T. Finck
edited by Maja Trochimczyk



https://www.usc.edu/dept/polish_music/PMJ/issue/4.1.01/paderewskirubato.html

[rachfan]

Hi counterpoint,

Yes, I agree.  If you believe that leading with the LH enhances your performance, then you should do exactly that.