Rather flat fingers (anyone)

[danny elfboy]

I was looking at some classmates playing the piano and also typing at the computer keyboard. I noticed all of them tend to play/type with very high and curled fingers ... the fingers being at a 90 degree with the knuckles

I think this is one of the first cause of tendonitis, pain and poor accuracy
I suggested them to flatten their fingers but they won't do it as this goes against anything they have been taught: i.e. flat fingers are bad

I try to maintain the natural position of the relaxed hand at the side of the body when playing. In this position the fingers are at 35 degree to the knuckles and they are rather long and have a long arch form

So you can't call them flat but certainly compared to the 90 degree curcled finger position they're way flatter. I also think that this semi-flat finger position is the best to use because the whole 4th phalange is playing and not just the tip of the finger and that means that the kinestethic sense of a wider playing area is activated compared to just the tip or in certain cases just the nails

I though of calling this position where the hand is rather flat and in a straight line with the wrist and the arm, where the fingers are very long, slightly arched but rather flat and where one plays with the big portion of the meaty part of the fingers and not the tips "semi-flat" fingers

And I consider this position to by superior of any more-curved position
But I also know that most orthodox teachers would disagree with me

I want to point out that I don't refer to this as "flat" because the fingers is flat compared to the key (i.e. the whole finger lays on the key for all its legth) but because the finger joints are all "flat" "straight" "aligned" to each other compared to being bend at differet position and hence disaligned

This simple pic shows what I mean by "flat" as in joint flatness vs curved


What do you think?
You agree that the "semi-flat" position is better and that (talking about extremes) the lesser of the evils is "flat fingers" compared to "high curved fingers" ?

P.S.

Try the "semi-flat" fingers position on your keyboard while typing ... if you feel it is hard to just move your chair back a little and increase the distance between you and the keyboard till you can easily type with semi-flat fingers. You'll notice instantaneous incresed control, orentiation sense, ease and speed

[term]

I really don't care (me personally)

The fingers of every pianist should stay in *whatever* position feels relaxed. Second criteria is to produce the desired sound.
Don't care about semi-flat, degrees, or whatever, because it depends.

Of course if one of your classmates has naturally flat fingers and forces himself to curl his fingers while playing piano or curl them more just because that's how he/she learned it...thats bad.

[danny elfboy]

Of course if one of your classmates has naturally flat fingers and forces himself to curl his fingers while playing piano or curl them more just because that's how he/she learned it...thats bad.

I don't think anatomically there's a thing as naturally "curled" fingers
So if someone curl his or her fingers he or she is necessarily forcing a strained position

I showed the pic above (semi flat vs. curved) inspired by the fact that the first pic and joints aligned position is the natural one of the relaxed hand and I think this is universal in the anatomical structure of humans. So all other positions are necessarily unnatural and forced.

[ail]

I don't think anatomically there's a thing as naturally "curled" fingers
So if someone curl his or her fingers he or she is necessarily forcing a strained position

I showed the pic above (semi flat vs. curved) inspired by the fact that the first pic and joints aligned position is the natural one of the relaxed hand and I think this is universal in the anatomical structure of humans. So all other positions are necessarily unnatural and forced.

I never noticed how I play. When I was a kid and was beginning to learn the piano, I remember my teacher saying to me that I had to curl the fingers more. I guess I had them all flat, but I can't remember. I'm watching myself type now (and I type really fast) and I don't have my fingers as semi-flat as you say, but they're not 90º arched either. I see I curl them a lot in a kind of rest position but I tend to flatten them for the top row keys and curl them for the lower row. It's all very variable and I don't think you are interested in typing anyway, so, but I can't give you a straight opinion yet. I guess the main thing is to let the 'cushion' of the finger hit the key (in the piano) and not the tip where your nail would hit it instead.

Alex

[gonzalo]

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2507.msg21688.html#msg21688
(Round fingers – the role of fingers)

[danny elfboy]

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2507.msg21688.html#msg21688
(Round fingers – the role of fingers)

Therefore I do not believe at all in fingers curled. I believe in fingers naturally arched as in the positions just described.

However my fingers are never curled.

Perhaps my greatest emphasis apart from “neutral position” is on joint alignment

Bernhard seems to agree with me
What he calls "neutral position" I call "semi-flat" but it's just a matter or semantics

[term]

@danny elfboy
I don't know exactly. I can tell you that, when i let my arms hang down and i'm relaxed, my fingers are curled to some degree, as they are always (for example when i go to bed, i observed this). I just read somewhere that there are people who then have absolutely flat fingers and that this is some genetic thing.
But it also depens on hand position. When i let my hand (not the arm) hang down, fingers flatten (i use that for big chords). When i have 90° between forearm and hand my fingers are very curled (almost like a fist; more than 90°). Edit: naturally of course. I didn't force anything.

[danny elfboy]

but they're not 90º arched either. I see I curl them a lot in a kind of rest position but I tend to flatten them for the top row keys and curl them for the lower row.

At resting position they're not curled
Curling fingers require shortening of the tendons and can only be achieve by consciously maintaining the tendons in that position. Naturally the resting fingers with the tendons relaxed are like the one in the first pic. My problem is that keeping fingers even slightly curved requires an effort, tension and tendon/muscle use wich is not only unnecessary but create co-contraction by causing the movements to overlap the already cronically tensed tendons/muscles.

What you say about keeping them flat for the higher row and curved for the lower row proves my point about distances
A lot of pianists sit too close at the keyboard (either piano or computer)

This causes a lot of problems including non-free movements, raised elbows and chronically raised shoulders. Another problem is that it is comes natural in a too-close position to curve the fingers even if that implies chronic tension

What happens is that when you are playing or typing far you can keep the finger in their naturally arched semi-flat position (hence long fingers) because there's enough room for the hand to move backward and allow the fingers to elongate

When you're playing or typing in the lower rows (closer to the body) the hands can't move back to allow the fingers to elongate IF this moves the elbows back toward the side of the body and LOCK them at the sides. So what one instinctively does is keeping the hand in the same position just shorting the distance between the playing part of the fingers and the hand (hence curling hence shortening)

For example let's say you have to press F8 with long arched semi-flat fingers
This mean the palm will be above the lower part of the keyboard near the space bar
Now let's say you have to play the J

You can do two things

1) keeping the hand in the same position but curling the fingers till you can reach the J

2) keeping the fingers in the same natural position but moving the hand backward till you can reach the J

The 1st one is IMO less natural, desirable and effective and is probably harmful and it's what come natural when we sit too close so that moving backward would automatically lock the elbows at the sides or ever worse move them behind the body

The 2nd one is what we should do and what would come natural to the instinct of the body AS LONG AS we sit at the correct position that allows the moving backward of the hand without locking the elbows at the sides

The correct position IMO at the computer keyboard and the piano is the length of your forearm minus the hand between you and your upper body

If you're doing this right your elbows should easily (if needed) go in front of your torso and without the side of your body stopping them

I guess the main thing is to let the 'cushion' of the finger hit the key (in the piano) and not the tip where your nail would hit it instead.

Exactly but if you do this (hitting with the cushions) while keeping your fingers high you will end up with a collapsed wrist, high knuckles, straight fingers with last phalange totally bend. Such position is even worse of the high fingers position when you hit the keys with the naily tips

The only way to naturally hit with the cushions (it seems to me) is to assume the position I showed in the first drawn pic (slightly naturally arched, all fingers joint aligned, rather flat position, long fingers)

Also that position is the only one that you would maintain without any kind of effort or strain. Your fingers would be in that positions even if you were sleeping or had lost consciousness wereas all other fingers position require a chronic conscious tension of the tendon/muscles to maintain the position and would be naturally lost (i.e. the finger would naturally return to the slightly-arched semi-flat position) as soon as the effort and control is lost or losened a bit

[danny elfboy]

@danny elfboy
I don't know exactly. I can tell you that, when i let my arms hang down and i'm relaxed, my fingers are curled to some degree, as they are always (for example when i go to bed, i observed this).

Yes. I just think curled is the wrong term here. I think arched is better
Flat fingers would just follow the direction of the hand and be a straight line with it
This is clearly not the position resting fingers are in so no they're not flat
I used the term "semi-flat" but still it is open to misunderstanding

Compare the difference between flat, semi-flat and curled
These are very big differences in degree



I'm pretty anatomically sure that neither the first one nor the third one are natural position the fingers assume naturally without any tendon effort and strain to mantain the unnatural position

When i have 90° between forearm and hand my fingers are very curled (almost like a fist; more than 90°). Edit: naturally of course. I didn't force anything.

I'm not sure I understand this. What do you mean by 90° between forearm and hand?

[dnephi]

OK.  Now, take your hand.  Relax it completely.  Dangle your hand and lower arm from your elbow.  Be completely relaxed.

The shape there should be the shape your fingers should take.  That would be curved.  Curved fingers allows greater velocity.  Flat fingers have a mechanical disadvantage.  See that pdf I showed you.

Dan

[danny elfboy]

OK.  Now, take your hand.  Relax it completely.  Dangle your hand and lower arm from your elbow.  Be completely relaxed.

The shape there should be the shape your fingers should take. 

Dan

No. That would be arched or as I call them semi-flat
Curved would like the third picture of the degree of curveness I have drawn
You will never seen at reast finger assuming the positon of the third pic

I just tried what you said. Dangling my hand from the elbow
This way the fingers are in the shape they're in the second picture (arched) not in the shape they are in the third picture (curved)

Of course they're not flat (first picture) and of course that flatness would have mechanical disadvantage. That's why I used the term semi-flat (half-flat)
But semantically I realize that semi-flat is the same of semi-curved (the middle position between the two)

Long arched fingers move way faster than short curved fingers
I read the pdf thanks and I think it says the same thing I'm saying it's just we give different meanings to different terms.

[dnephi]

Curved fingers in my sense of the word, not necessarily your sense.  Whatever you're asking, the finger position you should have is when you are dangling and completely relaxed.  There's nothing more to it.  You'll even find, if you then put your hand on a flat surface, staying that relaxed and exerting no muscles, that your fingers are more curved than you think.

Regards,

Dan

[danny elfboy]

Look at the pics I posted (what an artist uh ?  )
Curved fingers (in your sense of the world) is more like the third pic or the second pic?
Because both my hand and the hand of my sister, and my friend, and my mother (yeah I'm asking around for evidence that I'm not just anatomical strange) when dangling and completely relaxed are exactly in the position/shape I've drawn in the pic2 (arched) and nothing like the position/shape I've drawn in the pic3 (curved)

[dnephi]

Your pic 2 is a bit too flat.  Pic 3 is too curved.  Your position should be somewhere in between the two.  You will find that there is a spectrum of different "curvatures" which you can use depending on the tone you want and the passage (reaching for notes, etc.). 

My hand looks much closer to 3 than 2, though.  My teacher says that my finger position has improved greatly since I began studying with her.

I am impressed by your pictures .

Dan

[term]

I'm not sure I understand this. What do you mean by 90° between forearm and hand?

Can't explain it better^^ - have a look at this picture:

like this (the hand, not the fingers).

I understand your point and you're right. But you definately can't generalize how fingers *should* be because thats different for everyone.
I'll give you an impression of my hand, since i can't make a picture...
it's approximately like this:

I hold my hand in a straight line with my forearm. Relative to that line, my fingers are curled ~ 40°. Fingertips somewhere between semi-flat (arched) and curled.

Actually it's not that important. There are as many different hands and fingers as there are people.

You will find that there is a spectrum of different "curvatures" which you can use depending on the tone you want and the passage (reaching for notes, etc.).

true.
I can reach a 9th comfortably and a 10th is also doable. Most time when i play the piano my fingers are not curled like usually, because I often have to stretch a little bit, of course hand, fingers, arm moves etc...
but when i don't play my fingers are as i described above.

As I said, you're certainly right, but how much curled fingers is too much depends, so there's no point in making these drawings to show how it "should" be (although they're very nice  )

[danny elfboy]

Can't explain it better^^ - have a look at this picture:

like this (the hand, not the fingers).

I see
My fingers to are curled in this position
But this position is abductive and press on the median nerve
Such position should never be used at the piano and we often tend to use it when holding stick, sweeping or moving down the handle of a door
Yet it still is a problematic position and even for the actions described above it would be better to mediate with different positions that leave the top of the hand on the same line with the top of the wrist and the forearm

In this position fingers curls naturally because the tendons are pulled like elastics

I understand your point and you're right. But you definately can't generalize how fingers *should* be because thats different for everyone.
I'll give you an impression of my hand, since i can't make a picture...
it's approximately like this:

I hold my hand in a straight line with my forearm. Relative to that line, my fingers are curled ~ 40°. Fingertips somewhere between semi-flat (arched) and curled.

I know it's just semantics but I still wouldn't call that curled
It's probably what dnephi said too, between my second picture and the third picture although the fingers in this pic look a lot more like the second pic of mine (semi-flat) than the third pic of mine (curved)
Then of course my pic was to provide a general idea, of course it doesn't have to be exact. For example "right bench at the piano" provides a general idea. It's not a bunch of centimeters less or more that make the difference

Semantic aside it seems we agree
The playing position should be the natural position the fingers have when resting in the natural position. Such position is definitely not curled and definitely not flat
All other position requires an effort to maintain the tendons pulled and are therefore bad when playing. The problem is people that play with really curled fingers and instead of maintaining a relaxed natural position/shape of the fingers they create an artificial ball with the hand ... keeping the fingers high and very curled

Actually it's not that important. There are as many different hands and fingers as there are people.

I still think it's a matter of semantics
The pic you provided looks exactly like my hand and all the hands I have seen look
While there are difference in fingers length and shape we all have the same tendons to do the same task of pulling, grasping, throwing, picking and therefore the fingers are universally in the same position when at rest.

If certain people are born with flat fingers as you said then that's probably considered a pathology and they're invalid who can't do much with their hands

(although they're very nice  )

 

[ted]

My complete lack of tuition in technique precludes my making general statements. I can say what I do myself, however, for interest's sake. Whenever I let my fingers go too flat my sounds seem to lack clarity and, from a haptic point of view, I cannot feel individual keystrokes quite as well. This sometimes causes my playing to become sloppy and I tend to lose control more easily. I went to the extent of making many recordings using each and the superior sound of curled fingers was very obvious. Therefore I have erred on the side of curling for many years now.

It has to be said though that just because I like somewhat curled playing and such a general mechanism suits my improvisation, it does not follow that it is generally good. Indeed, perhaps flat suits most people and I am an anachronism; it wouldn't be the first time.

[cygnusdei]

Probably curled fingers are only for playing scales? If your hand is reaching for an octave or ninth or tenth it's impossible to do it with curled fingers anyway.

OK, how about this: playing with your knuckles? It sounds silly but in a few occasions it's the best position! (for me anyway).

[counterpoint]

Flat fingers on black keys, curled fingers on white keys

it's that simple 

[danny elfboy]

Flat fingers on black keys, curled fingers on white keys

it's that simple 

No if curled fingers are really anatomically harmful (which I believe they are)
Whatever kind of curling that requires the chronic pulling of tendons is just not the correct for playing.

As I have explained above flat on black and curled on white is the first evidence of a wrong position. The fingers curled on white keys on orther to conpensate for the lack of room between the hand and the playing flashy part of the fingers tips. By curling the distance is decreased. On the hand hand the black keys being more distant from the hand allow a complete release of the fingers for all their lenght

Ideally would be instead of curling to allow the hand to move back a little so as to accomodate for more room between the hand and the fingers. To do this instinctively and without problems one need to increase the distance between the bench and the piano so that even when moving the hands backwards the elbows are not locked at the side of the body

Also what is bad with playing with curled fingers on the white key is that it promotes deviation of the ulna and collapsed wrist because of the different lenght of the fingers
The way to avoid them is to allow the arched (not curled) fingers to play closer to the body with thumb, pink and fourth and to extend almost in the black area (almost in between black keys) the index and the middle finger

[counterpoint]

Danny elfboy, could you please show me one pianist, who plays the way you tell us, it's the only "right" and healthy way? No tension, fingers never curled. I want to see this for example with playing Waldstein Sonata or a WTC Fugue!?!?

[danny elfboy]

Danny elfboy, could you please show me one pianist, who plays the way you tell us, it's the only "right" and healthy way? No tension, fingers never curled. I want to see this for example with playing Waldstein Sonata or a WTC Fugue!?!?

Just watch whatever video of Rubinstein
For example him playing Falla or Granados

I just knew the first time I saw him playing that he was the greatest example of perfect technique and real efficient body use and just lately I found out that

"Rubinstein was mentioned as a prime example of a human being moving the "right" way, and was oft praised for his seemingly effortless playing"

His not slouching, tensing, moving the head furiously doesn't make his interpretation any less emotions and passionally strong

[counterpoint]

Now look at Rubinsteins flat fingers 

Beethoven Concerto No.4  third movement

[danny elfboy]

Now look at Rubinsteins flat fingers 

Wait a moment. I have never said flat
Even when playing on black keys what you refer as "flat" is not flat at all
I showed in my pics  what is flat fingers and such position is almost never used. I have also showed what is curled and that position is harmful for the tendon
The right position is in the middle of these two extremes and it's what I call "arched" fingers. Of course arched doesn't look neither flat neither curled

Rubinstein fingers are arched. In some passages he raised the wrist (while keeping it in a plane with the forearm) and this naturally increases the arch degree of the fingers ... but still they're not "curled"

I said this at the beginning of the thread: this will become a semantics controversy
We're just assigning different meaning to the words curled, flat and arched

Of course sometimes one may need to either really curl the fingers a lot or abduct the wrist. But if they are just momentary diversions from the correct neutral position and one goes back to the neutral position as soon as possible they're not a problem and often unavoidable

Rubinstein as you can see mostly mantain the arched natural position (notice also that the angle of the camera changes the perceived angle degree between the wrist and the fingers

[danny elfboy]

Also: although curled fingers are very bad this doesn't mean one that knows this automatically is never going to use curled fingers.
Even the pianist with the most efficient technique is going to slip into the bad habit of curled fingers. This happens easily and often unsconsciously when moving from black to white keys. The habit is that of not moving the hand to reposition it over the white keys but to keep the hand when it is and curl the fingers to reach the white keys.
This happens more often when there's a very fast alternation of white keys and black keys
What I mean to say is that Rubinstein is 95% perfectly aligned and his fingers are correctly arched. That 5% where he uses more curled fingers instead of compromising with hand movement doesn't prove that it's okay to just that sometimes we do it unconsciously even if it's bad. It's like cratching because it stings ... even if you know that scratching will worsen it.