"Pamina" for a scene from the "Magic Flute" by Mozart

[m1469]

Last February I had the opportunity to be Pamina for a scene from the Magic Flute, by Mozart.  This is with the choir that I sing with and it's a live recording.   We didn't do a full staging, so we more just stood and delivered, standing in front of the choir.  We did this scene along with our other musical selections in an all Mozart concert.

Right now, I am going in a different direction voice-wise and would probably never be cast for the role of Pamina because of that, but it was fun to sing this for a scene anyway, 2007 .

This was a good opportunity for me because I don't have a lot of actual experience with Opera scenes and singing with other characters and so on (that's going to be changing quite a bit this coming year).

I figure that you are only listening to this if you like Opera in general, so I have included the entire track/scene -- a bit over 13 mins long -- vs. editing to display just my part (which starts at about 3:30).

Thanks for listening .

[pianistimo]

that's exciting, mayla!  i hope that you continue to enjoy your vocal pursuits as well as piano.  you're obviously enjoying the idea of exploring character playing - which must be very hard. (to act and sing simultaneously).

[m1469]

Thanks, Pianistimo.  I actually find it easier to sing and act simultaneously, to an extent -- and, actually, I feel similarly about piano playing.  Hey, maybe life altogether is just easier while 'in character' .

[teresa_b]

If you probably won't be cast as Pamina in the future, that's too bad, because you sound lovely in the role!  Nice work--your voice is light and very nice for Mozart.

Teresa

[opus10no2]

I like it, and you sound technically accomplished, though I will admit a lack of familiarity with this type of singing, so it sounds a little anonymous to me.

I think this reminds me that most of the personality I percieve in vocal perfomance in popular music comes through in the consonant sounds, as opposed to the more purely tonal nature of this type of singing.

[m1469]

If you probably won't be cast as Pamina in the future, that's too bad, because you sound lovely in the role!  Nice work--your voice is light and very nice for Mozart.

Teresa

Thanks, Teresa.  I am actually heading toward more Dramatic/Spinto repertoire lately, and will be looking into some Verdi, Bellini, Strauss and so on.   At the time I sang this scene, I could handle holding back a bit (though I didn't want to), which is exactly what I had to do to sing in the tone and style you are talking about.  These days, I can't hold back like that anymore if I am going to let my voice continue to really develop.  So, without even really ever being cast for it, I have passed the role of Pamina right up, it seems  .

I like it, and you sound technically accomplished, though I will admit a lack of familiarity with this type of singing, so it sounds a little anonymous to me.

I think this reminds me that most of the personality I percieve in vocal perfomance in popular music comes through in the consonant sounds, as opposed to the more purely tonal nature of this type of singing.

I am not sure I understand, actually.  You mean, in your perception, because of this style, this sounds like it could be just anybody singing and hasn't any sense of personality involved ?  And, in popular music you don't think that ?

[beethovenlover]

m1469,

I think your voice is beautiful. Just curious, but why didn't you perform in German?

[m1469]

Hi, beethovenlover, thanks very much .  You know, I am not sure why we sang it in English -- I personally would have preferred to sing it in German.  Other than, there seems to be a movement in that direction these days ... in an effort to make Opera more accessible to the general public (here in the US).  Plus, the local Opera was running this show in the Spring, and some of the people cast for that (Tamino, for example) were singing with me here.  And, they were using the edition and lyrics that we used here.  Plus, the Director for the production is also the one who was conducting this scene (and is our choir director).   So, this fit with what they were doing.

[opus10no2]

I am not sure I understand, actually.  You mean, in your perception, because of this style, this sounds like it could be just anybody singing and hasn't any sense of personality involved ?  And, in popular music you don't think that ?

Well, a lack of familiarity with this kind of thing inherently means I am initially hearing the most superficial things.

It seems like the expression, and difference between different singers in this type of singing and music is defined by something different than I'm used to, seems like it is more defined by people trying to get a 'pure' voice, and the differences are in how the music is interpreted and not just in the sound of the vocal.

Can you explain why you think I, and surely most people, can hear a wider difference between singers in popular music than in operatic singers?

I don't think operatic audiences listen to the same qualities, they must listen to something different, see what I mean?

Actually, just briefly, what is the difference between popular singing and operatic singing to you?

[m1469]

Well, a lack of familiarity with this kind of thing inherently means I am initially hearing the most superficial things.

Well, I suppose that depends entirely on what a person considers to be superficial.  People listen for different things and with different expectations, no matter how familiar they are with a particular genre.

... and the differences are in how the music is interpreted and not just in the sound of the vocal.

Does your word "just" mean "solely" ?  Anybody singing or performing "somebody else's music" is under scrutiny for more than just sound production, whether it is "popular music" or something else.  In any case, I have heard a number of street pianists playing "their own stuff" whom sound a little different than those people whom are "merely" interpreting Liszt, for example.

Can you explain why you think I, and surely most people, can hear a wider difference between singers in popular music than in operatic singers?

Well, just to be clear, I don't think that there are really wider differences "out there," but it's a matter of perspective.  However, three things come to mind :

1.  Majority of people listen less to Opera singing than to popular singing, therefore, hearing the differences between various Opera singERS is not as trained.  But, it's just like hearing several renditions of the same Liszt Rhapsody -- an untrained ear will hear them as "all the same" whereas a person whom has spent some time in the field and knows what to listen for will hear worlds of differences between pianists.

2.  There are a greater variety of people singing (and being broadcast singing) popular music.  There are a lot of people whom just decide they want to sing and don't necessarily seek training (though I am not classifying "popular music" by how much somebody is trained, but providing an example of the fact that there are just MORE people doing it).  These people, it seems, mostly gravitate toward "popular music" (whatever that means in this context); at least I don't know a lot of people whom gravitate toward Opera unless they are seeking that specific training.

3.  I am assuming you are talking about people who are singing their own repertoire.  This will obviously provide some differences and you don't hear many people composing and staging their own Operas, whereas you get a lot of people strumming a few chords on the guitar in accompaniment to their own vocals, their own composition. 

Along those lines, though, if you have a handful of women all wanting to sing a number by Whitney Houston, if they know the characteristics of that music and of Whitney's voice (typically "voice-type" and chosen repertoire go very much hand in hand), an untrained ear listening to each of these performers will hear more or less the same thing between them.

I don't think operatic audiences listen to the same qualities, they must listen to something different, see what I mean?

No, not entirely, I don't see what you mean.

Actually, just briefly, what is the difference between popular singing and operatic singing to you?

What is "popular" singing ?

[m1469]

Just as sort of a caveat about this idea of "training" (because I think it plays a big role, to some extent).

There are basic principles to sound production which people whom are being trained by good teachers, in any genre of vocal music, will learn.  All singers will learn how to support their sound with their body and breath, and this will consequently bring about a "certain" sound and characteristic to their vocal production -- that wouldn't necessarily be there if they didn't have training.

The funny thing about that is that the kind of breath and bodily support a person learns to give to their singing is something that has actually already, at one time, just come more naturally for all of us.

I have been in several weeks worth of a vocal classes (incognito at first  ) where the target student was not the Opera singer.  People from all walks of life were in this class and they were each encouraged as individuals.  However, the focus of the class was on sound production, though a number of people brought their own "popular" music to sing.  There were several things we did in there to tap into our "natural" sound, but everytime somebody did that, though there was still an individuality to it, there were also basic, shared qualities between individuals, about the sound itself -- whether they were man or woman and no matter what the intention (as long as it was "true").

Two of the most naturally "well produced" sounds we each have made in our lives is crying and laughing when we are a baby.  We are built to make these sounds and these sounds reflect a true intention (which is part of the deal).  If you have a room full of 20 babies crying or laughing, believe me, they will all sound the same unless one of them is your's (the reason you would care about the differences) and you know, specifically, what you are listening for.  

Unfortunately, after being a baby we undergo years of "conditioning" as we grow up, affecting us psychologically and in turn, physically.  We forget how to carry ourselves, we forget how to talk, we forget a lot of things.  I think sound production "training" is more or less a mere reminder of stuff we already know/knew at one time (but that can be very tricky).

The point is, though, that the more natural/trained (ironic) a voice, the more similar will be its characteristics with other voices.  The biggest show of nuance and "differences" will be the particular repertoire and how this highlights the strong points of an individual's particular voice (and strong/weak points will vary with each individual and "voice type" -- voice type basically being a categorization of what an individual's strong points and weak points are).

[elspeth]

Can you explain why you think I, and surely most people, can hear a wider difference between singers in popular music than in operatic singers?

I don't think operatic audiences listen to the same qualities, they must listen to something different, see what I mean?

Actually, just briefly, what is the difference between popular singing and operatic singing to you?

Partially, it's a question of repertoire. By classifying clasical singing vs. everything else... it's hardly a fair split. 'Everything else' contains such a diversity of style and culture and voices. As you say, most people can tell the difference easier between 'popular' singers than classical... but in part it's because very often one singer is associated with particular songs so you hear a tune and associate a person. Classical singers all sing out of the same repertoire so there are very, very few cases where you can say 'that tune = that singer'. 'Nessun Dorma' with Pavirotti is the only obvious famous example I can think of offhand.

It also goes for things in popular music. Most people who don't listen to much rock would have a hard time telling you the difference between lead guitarists purely by ear, but to the rock afficionado different guitarists are entirely characteristic and easy to tell apart. It's a question of knowledge on the part of the listener, as much as of ability on the part of the player.

I work in a theatre with a resident opera company so spend a lot of time around opera people, both artists and audience. Opera audiences tend to be very, very well informed. They've mostly spent years and years going to opera. Taking the 'Magic Flute' example, they've probably seen it live regularly and listened to recordings often. Some of them will have taken the trouble to buy a score and follow it while listening to a recording. Almost all of them will have read up on the history of the opera and biographical and technical works about Mozart before coming to the performance. So, they have a very broad knowledge and experience base to listen to it from... if a singer misses a note, they hear it. Every error in intonation, tuning, pronunciation and dynamic is noted - and even if all that is done well they also demand artistry over and above that. A good opera singer must be technically and artistically flawless if they want to get to the top of their profession. The audience knows how the music ought to be sung and they won't compromise on quality. They're very, very demanding... but also very, very appreciative. When an opera singer gets adulation it's not because they're young, pretty, realease one catchy tune and have a horde of hormonal teenage fans, it's because an incredibly demanding and committed audience base appreciates their skill and reacts accordingly. That's also the reason serious opera fans will pay through the nose for tickets... they expect absolutely top quality from singers and are prepared to pay for it because they recognise the talent and skill they're paying for.

[beethovenlover]

Hi, beethovenlover, thanks very much .  You know, I am not sure why we sang it in English -- I personally would have preferred to sing it in German.  Other than, there seems to be a movement in that direction these days ... in an effort to make Opera more accessible to the general public (here in the US).  Plus, the local Opera was running this show in the Spring, and some of the people cast for that (Tamino, for example) were singing with me here.  And, they were using the edition and lyrics that we used here.  Plus, the Director for the production is also the one who was conducting this scene (and is our choir director).   So, this fit with what they were doing.

Hmmm, I would have preferred it in German. I think authenticity is better than succumbing to the wills of the masses. I don't think the language should make a performance any more or less accessible, but that it just my humble opinion.

Keep singing! and playing of course! 

[m1469]

hee hee... you guys are cute .  Well, thanks for listening (to those of you whom did) and thanks for taking some time to comment !  I am happy to see some interest in Opera in general (as happy as I can personally get about that at this point anyway ).

[daniloperusina]

May I just add a thought? I find it unbeleivable that someone interested in classical piano is 'not familiar with this type of singing'. That is not intended as a personal attack on anybody, so don't take it wrong. It's just that the piano and operatic singing is so intimately connected with each other. Chopin's and Mozart's pianostyles are completely based on opera. In almost every pianopiece by Schubert, you hear a singing voice in the melody. Liszt's operatic paraphrases. Endless 'Theme with variations' on an aria. More to the point, when we talk about 'legato' and 'phrasing' while playing piano, operatic singing is our main reference.

So, immediately off and educate yourselves!

m1469, listening to your recording now. You have an absolutely gorgeous voice! You certainly have to continue your singing lessons, who know's where that could lead you! You do beautiful phrasings, and the sound you produce is so sweet! The bass-baryton (?) is quite good too, isn't he? Post more of your singing!

[opus10no2]

It's just that the piano and operatic singing is so intimately connected with each other. Chopin's and Mozart's pianostyles are completely based on opera. In almost every pianopiece by Schubert, you hear a singing voice in the melody. Liszt's operatic paraphrases. Endless 'Theme with variations' on an aria.

I understand but disagree fundamentally, because if a piano exists to emulate something else, then it can only be second best.

Chopin wrote his piano works for the piano for a reason, alot of them include singable melodies, but why don't we transcribe them for voice?
The piano is different, and while listening to other instruments can inspire one to reproduce things which don't quite come naturally at first, it remains different, and can exist happily without anything else.

[furtwaengler]

Thanks so much for posting this! It is absolutely delightful, and you have a beautiful voice. Please continue to post your singing as you wish; I think there'd be no objection but instead, many thanks. I'm really impressed

On a side note, Thursday (August 2) was the first anniversary of the death of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, one of the greatest sopranos in history. She had a humongous voice with an unbelievable range of expression and colors unlike any other - I'm thinking now of her unparalleled Marschallin in Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier...Oh and the Last Four Songs, absolutely! (I am a collector of all every performance of Strauss's Last Four Songs I can get my hands on...its amazing how different singers make the songs a different piece...a different instrument, of course.)

Anyway, this is a terrible tangent...Schwarzkopf, even with her huge voice, played Pamina, and was ideal. In the right setting, maybe you wouldn't have to, as you feel, "hold back," though I think I know what you mean (But how could I? I've a little voice a bit ignorant of proper technique, and you sound absolutely fine!)

All I can say is I listened, you sound lovely, I really enjoyed, and I hope you continue singing! 

...One final note...Opera in English is not really a new trend. The Covent Garden in England has long had an opera in English series, and many recordings have been released on Chandos. I suppose some of the recordings with Mackerras and Daniels of, Fidelio, Wozzeck, Lulu and some of Janacek's operas are more recent productions and recordings (at least in the past 20 years), but Sir Reginald Goodall's famed English Ring (Wagner) released on Chandos goes back to the 1960's or later.

(Tangents, tangents, tangents...sorry!)

[m1469]

Thanks very much for stopping by, Daniloperusina and Furtwaengler.  Great comments .

I had the opportunity to talk with a friend of mine about this, actually, and she mentioned to me why it is sung in English.  I am going to take the liberty of copying and pasting what she wrote to me -- and, I am going to also mention that this is our very own "whynot" from here on the forum (whom is also the pianist in this recording -- brava !  ). 

I hope I will not offend in anyway by posting this and by mentioning you, whynot, but if I do I will happily adjust this post and ask that you forgive me .  So, I will quote because I don't think I could say it any better :

"There are two reasons why English-speaking countries usually perform this work in English.  One is that Mozart didn’t call the work an opera, he called it a “singspiel in 2 acts”, singspiel meaning sing-play, a play with singing.  There is a lot of dialogue (we cut a lot, as most people do now— mainly Masonic references that the original audience would have recognized that we would not), so the speaking parts were important and really intended to be understood. 

The even bigger reason is that he wrote the play as a favor to a friend who owned a failing theatre, to try to save the business (which it did).  It was crucial that it be a big hit from the beginning and remain popular, that people would understand all of the jokes and have a good time.  He wrote it in the native language of the audience so it would be completely understood (he wrote many other works in Italian).  This history is familiar to directors and conductors, who usually honor the original intention of the vernacular by performing this work in the language of the country or region— Italians sing it in Italian, English-speakers in English etc.  (...) the truth is that your singing it in English was perfectly authentic for this work, much more than using the original language would have been."

I sure as heck didn't know that but am very happen to learn it !  Thanks, whynot .

[pianowolfi]

m1469: the most beautiful connection between two notes Brilliant and very opera-like.

*off for cycling*

[berrt]

once again, mayla, i am deeply impressed!!

B.

[m1469]

Well, thank you very much to both of you .

[jlh]

I understand but disagree fundamentally, because if a piano exists to emulate something else, then it can only be second best.

Chopin wrote his piano works for the piano for a reason, alot of them include singable melodies, but why don't we transcribe them for voice?
The piano is different, and while listening to other instruments can inspire one to reproduce things which don't quite come naturally at first, it remains different, and can exist happily without anything else.

Please educate yourself and then see if you still disagree.  In emulating other instruments and voice, the piano doesn't become "only second best".  One might say that the piano is better because it can emulate everything else.

[jlh]

m1469, your voice is beautiful!  I asked earlier if you had any other gems you'd like to share, not seeing this thread until just a few minutes ago...  suffice it to say, I got my "m1469's voice fix" that I was seeking...  great performance! 

[daniloperusina]

The even bigger reason is that he wrote the play as a favor to a friend who owned a failing theatre, to try to save the business (which it did).  It was crucial that it be a big hit from the beginning and remain popular, that people would understand all of the jokes and have a good time.  He wrote it in the native language of the audience so it would be completely understood (he wrote many other works in Italian).   

And if I remember correctly, this place was a sort of vaudeville theater, as opposed to the 'serious' opera houses in the city centre. It was located in the outskirts of the city, and was known for it's use of 'special effects' like actors hanging in the air, various machines and whatever. A sort of 'folk's theater'. The director was called Emanuel Schikaneder and he wrote the libretto, and Mozart the music. Mozart was composing especially for that theater, so the language had to be native for the slightly less educated audience, and for the music he attempted a more 'folksy' style.

Mozart composed at least one opera in german, The Abduction From The Seraglio, and The Magic Flute is not his only singspiel. The other most famous one is Bastien und Bastienne, which he composed when he was twelve, also in german.   

[daniloperusina]

And, for you americans, I just heard Stuart Neill, sensational tenor (met, la scala, covent garden etc), doing Radames in Aida here in Sweden. Fantastic!!

[m1469]

m1469, your voice is beautiful!  I asked earlier if you had any other gems you'd like to share, not seeing this thread until just a few minutes ago...  suffice it to say, I got my "m1469's voice fix" that I was seeking...  great performance! 

jlh, thank you very much .

And, thanks to you, too, danilopiano for your contribution .