Can Perfect Pitch Be Taught?

[goldentone]

And has anyone done so?  Or known of it being done?

I don't see why not.

If we can teach ourselves to identify intervals and chords, why can't we learn perfect pitch?  It is one step further of a finer aural distinction.  Currently I am teaching myself intervals and eventually I will move onto recognizing chords.  The key that I am using is middle C major.  I just tested myself, and from these daily sessions of the past few days, lo, I do know middle C.  It may be an ambitious endeavor, but it just seems a matter of time in exposing oneself to the particular pitch until it is engrained, and then we'll know it when we hear it and we'll be able to hear it in our heads, and sing it.

I am interested in your responses.   

[Etude]

I don't have PP but I can think of a note and hear that note in my head, I guess I just picked it up but the other way round is harder... I can name single notes, but I can't pick out notes from a piece with a whole other bunch of notes flying around.  And I can't do it with chords that aren't strictly tonal.  I played two stringed instruments, and when you have to constantly tune your instrument yourself the open string notes stay in your mind.  I did use the starting notes of pieces I was very familiar with to help me remember what each note sounded like, but the need to do that has become less and less.  It isn't true PP but it'll do for now.

[anna_crusis]

I think you have to start when you're really young (under eight) for it to work properly, just like you need to acquire a first language by that age (or never learn to speak). The longer you wait the more likely you're to end up with what I call  'pseudo perfect pitch' - that is, the kind of pitch sensitivity that most musicians have that allows them to mentally  hear pieces in their correct key but is easily fuddled by adverse conditions.

The kids I've met with real PP can instantly identify tones in atonal chords from any instrument. It's really scary.

[slobone]

My understanding is that what we call "perfect pitch" can't be taught. It means not only identifying any pitch, but knowing whether it's exactly in tune or is off by a few cents.

That said, I think most professional musicians do develop an excellent sense of pitch. Except pianists, of course...

[Etude]

And usually drummers since they don't normally deal with specific pitches.

[musicrebel4u]

That said, I think most professional musicians do develop an excellent sense of pitch. Except pianists, of course...

Absolutely wrong!

[musicrebel4u]

As other teachers and I already noticed for 7 years of teaching with Soft Way to Mozart, it in fact does develop perfect pitch in students of different ages.

[Essyne]

Absolutely wrong!

I'd have to agree w/ you, musicrebel - After all, how many pianists do you know that sit down @ the piano and are completely content w/ it being out of tune?

As other teachers and I already noticed for 7 years of teaching with Soft Way to Mozart, it in fact does develop perfect pitch in students of different ages.

I think that there's an extreme difference between innate perfect pitch and learned perfect pitch. . . . but frankly the student who has to "develop" their perfect pitch, in my opinion may be better off - Hard work only makes you stronger, yes?

[musicrebel4u]

I think that there's an extreme difference between innate perfect pitch and learned perfect pitch. . . . but frankly the student who has to "develop" their perfect pitch, in my opinion may be better off - Hard work only makes you stronger, yes?

I have to disagree 
Let's say: I am in Texas and you are in Texas. What different does it make if you (for example) were born in Texas and I had to come here from elsewhere? We are at the same geographical destination.

As it goes to hard work...Well, there is another anecdote:

One farmer was plowing and plowing his land every year and had no harvest. When he was dieing from starvation, he asked Almighty, what did he do wrong. He was working so hard and didn't achieve no results.

Yes, - was the answer. You were plowing very, very hard. But did you ever plant any seed after plowing?

You may teach any beginner to work really hard, when one sees results of such work.

[Essyne]

lol - I like you, musicrebel 

The student who has to work hard at something conveys extreme dedication to the art. If something is always handed to you on a silver platter, you can take it or leave it; frankly, it doesn't mean as much to you as it would to someone who toiled for years to get the same thing.

Of course, this is all a big generalization; therefore, my argument "holds no water," as they say. . .  (Don't ask who - I don't know  )

[musicrebel4u]

lol - I like you, musicrebel 

The same here! 

The student who has to work hard at something conveys extreme dedication to the art.

Oh, I wish to see THE STUDENT  Students like to work hard when they CAN.

If something is always handed to you on a silver platter, you can take it or leave it; frankly, it doesn't mean as much to you as it would to someone who toiled for years to get the same thing.

If you ask me, I would prefer to fly from Houston to Dallas. Imagine how I would enjoy the destination place if I would walk there (especially at summer time)  !

[Essyne]

ehh . . . *no comment*    

[Bob]

I think it's possible, but more difficult the older someone is.  I dug into it more a long time and find some study that only found one person who developed it, but even then there was something off about it.

Becuase there are different kinds of perfect pitch, aren't there?  I met a guy with perfect pitch who couldn't tune flat or sharp though.  That was a surprise.  Pianist too.  Not much reason to listen for intonation that way.  He could tell what note was what, but couldn't tell between two of the same notes, which one was higher or lower.  

So I'm thinking possible, but extremely unlikely.

Not to say you can't always improve you hearing though.  

[musicrebel4u]

I think it's possible, but more difficult the older someone is.  I dug into it more a long time and find some study that only found one person who developed it, but even then there was something off about it.

Becuase there are different kinds of perfect pitch, aren't there?  I met a guy with perfect pitch who couldn't tune flat or sharp though.  That was a surprise.  Pianist too.  Not much reason to listen for intonation that way.  He could tell what note was what, but couldn't tell between two of the same notes, which one was higher or lower.  

So I'm thinking possible, but extremely unlikely.

Not to say you can't always improve you hearing though.  

Yes! Perfect pitch could be a nice cherry on the cake, but can't replace the entire thing.

[keypeg]

Perfect pitch on piano with its equal temperament would be an uncomfortable thing to have.

[anna_crusis]

Perhaps the very young fare better because they are being provided with reference pitches long before their hearing is ever fuddled by out-of-tune instruments, alternate tunings or (in the bad old days) analogue recordings running at the wrong speed.

If you had a clear, unambiguous reference right from day one, that would be a foundation on which you could build your sense of pitch. Whenever you heard a tone later in life, you'd be refering back to that vivid aural memory.

Most of us (me too) I think had our sense of pitch spoiled somewhat early on by being confused by a bewildering array of random variations. We needed someone there stating authoritavely 'THIS is a D and nothing else!'

[optima]

Perfect pitch on piano with its equal temperament would be an uncomfortable thing to have.

What do you mean? You can tune the piano...


Perfect pitch is sth i don't have and sth I am jealous of . Last week, a friend of mine told me about a guy that could hear a piece ( for example Beethoven's Sonate Pathetique) and could instantly play it.

Ok, maybe perfect pitch is sth useful and can't be taught.However, now that i almost reach the end of my "student" days at piano, I look back and see that we were taught things in the wrong way...what I mean is that (for classical studies) proper attention is given only to sight and not to the ear. Just thing about how we all started: by counting spaces at the pentagram to identify a single note at the key of Sol ( G), and now, after years of practising,many of us( if you have a good prima vista) can "decode" instantly even the most demanding piece.

I strongly believe that the same could happen if we would first listen to a musical piece and we were then asked to play it on the piano.It may sound difficult now, out of the blue, but I believe it would be feasible if we were exposed to this teaching method with pieces of gradual difficulty throughout our student years.. Of course, perfect accuracy (esp in rhythm)cannot be achieved without having the scores, but what i believe and always complain about is that  in the teaching procedure many times "acoustic memory" is neglected and we get more stuck with the score and  "visual memory"..

And this is, unfortunately, done not only in piano lessons but at foreign languages lessons as well!You stick to the book and u read more than you speak!Thank God there's internet and Greek television uses subtitles - you somehow have to find your personal ways to bridge the gaps made by the educational system


And how all these relates to our topic? But of course,we are pianists and we all want to reach the desirable result (good interpretation) with the least possible effort ( the example with Texas you gave above - a good reason to be "jealous" of someone with perfect ear ) A different teaching method that would help us realize our acoustic capabilities could be a real help towards this direction 

As for me, I decided to tackle with jazz piano a bit in order to gain a "balance"!

[slobone]

I'd have to agree w/ you, musicrebel - After all, how many pianists do you know that sit down @ the piano and are completely content w/ it being out of tune?

Hmm, are you going to make me dig up about a thousand Youtube clips? Some from members of this forum?

[thalberg]

I read somewhere that perfect pitch depends largely on genetics....more so than even math skills. 

Yet David L. Burge, who sells a perfect pitch training course, claims that it can be learned--but the amount and type of work he suggests is prohibitive for many people.  He claims that it can be learned because each pitch has its own unique properties.  F# is vibrant like the color red, Eb is sedate like the color blue, and so forth.

I also have read that the ear develops best before the age of 6.  Ten years of work between age 20 and 30 will not compare with 3 years of work between ages 3 and 6. 

Now for my own opinion:  Perfect Pitch is not a precise thing--every musician is on a continuum.  Even among people with perfect pitch, some people are drastically better than others.  And there's a lot of grey area between having perfect pitch and not having it.  Like having perfect pitch in only one register (like a violinist friend) or having perfect pitch only for your instrument, or having perfect pitch just for the notes you tune to when you warm up.  Or like having a great pitch memory so if you've heard any pitches that day you remember where they are for the rest of the day.

[jazz-piano]

Yes, I believe Perfect Pitch can be taught but teaching it to children is better.

An adult has much more difficulties to develop it.

[anna_crusis]

I think basically what it boils down to is how well you can remember a single tone without any context to put it in.

I can give you an E by a roundabout method, because I know that the first note of Fur Elise is an E... so by playing the first bar in my head I've got a E. But I have no clue as to how to refine that ability. Obviously if I'm required to pick notes out of a chord then that method is useless - the same as 'Every Good Boy' is useless for sight reading because it's too slow. There probably is a way, but we're too dumb to figure it out.

How many of us know what a C#minor sounds like because it's the first chord in Moonlight Sonata? Go on, try it. Or the sound of your ringtone? Or the pitch of your neighbour's car alarm? I think the ability is there in most of us, but is hopelessly muddled and underdeveloped because it was rarely taught to us as children.

[keypeg]

There is nothing hopeless or muddled about learning to recognize and produce pitch.  Nor should there be a rule that says children are better at learning it unless someone has an effective teaching method and has used that method equally for both child and adult.

It is something that can be learned through training: not intellectual analysis, and not passively by listening.  I got the beginning end of such training last year and whatever I have has stayed.  The odd thing is that I cannot recognize pitch name with my mind (yet) - it goes by intermediary of an instrument.  I can hear a tone, or sing a tone, and if I go to the piano or other instrument I play, my finger will accurately, each time, pick out the note, and then I will know which note it is after seeing what my finger picked.  So there must be a pitch awareness associated to the instrument which is sitting in an area of consciousness (um, unconsciousness).  It was definitely trained, though.  I was taught by singing scales, which had to be accurate, and being aware of both pitch and relativity as sound and name, being aware of the tone I wanted to produce before producing it, and then making certain that was indeed the correct tone.  It was a rather intense process.

It has a bit of a drawback on piano, because I was trained to adjust for the nuances that happen in a scale, where the leading note, for example, is sharpened, or to want a chord to harmonize within the notes.  The piano has been tuned in a compromising way to incorporate all keys, in equal temperament tuning.  I can hear that, and I want to reach in and adjust the strings becuase they sound "out of tune" even if it is a tuned piano.

Pianists don't have to produce pitches.  In fact, they can't if they wanted to becuase the piano is pre-tuned.  Is there any practical application to having this ability, other than to recongize that you are playing in the wrong key or to find your way to a modulation by ear (which is also and mainly relative, not absolute)?

[jlh]

Here's my view:  I believe that those with this ability are NOT born with some magical ability to hear A440 standard on any note at any time.  The A440 standard is not shared by many musical traditions, and is not only arbitrary, but also inconsistently used by many orchestras around the world, who tend to tune a bit sharp (or in baroque tuning, a half step flat).

Perfect Pitch is nothing more than a conditioned memory of the tuning standard we hear, associated with note names.  Therefore, musicians are more likely to possess perfect pitch than non-musicians, and as with anything related to brain activity, some people are able to develop this skill to a sharper level than others.  For myself, every pitch has its own character (hard to explain, it's not a visual color for me, but that's probably the best term to describe it), and so by that character I can instantly recognize or produce that pitch. 

For these reasons, I am convinced that anyone can develop perfect pitch, though children probably have the best chance for the most development in this area (plasticity of the brain - children can learn and memorize things better and faster than adults - same reason children learn language faster than adults). 

[thierry13]

True perfect pitch can not be taught. The ability to memorize or recognize pitches out of context can be developed not so hardly. For example I allways recognize D minor chords. I allways recognize low G. There are a lot of things I can just think of and be on it. And if I worked on it I could recognize more (some people develop it has childs and it becomes even more instinctive). But that is NOT perfect pitch. Perfect pitch has nothing to do with memorising notes or labelling them. Perfect pitch is physiological and is a finer ear to exact frequencies of sound. Recognizing or being able to sing exact pitches is a RESULT of perfect pitch, not what it is fundamentally. It's just way easier for people who have perfect pitch to do so.

[thierry13]

Therefore, musicians are more likely to possess perfect pitch than non-musicians, and as with anything related to brain activity, some people are able to develop this skill to a sharper level than others. 

That's where you're wrong. True perfect pitch is innate and has nothing to do with musicality. You probably do not even have it(I don't know you, do not take as an insult or w/e). You must simply have an amazing memory for pitches. But that's not having perfect pitch. The perfect pitch can indeed tell you the 440, how far you are from it. He can tell you the 435, 450, whatever you want. Perfect pitch is not a note thing. It's a frequency thing.

[keypeg]

Perfect pitch is not a note thing. It's a frequency thing.

And what is a note?

[jlh]

That's where you're wrong. True perfect pitch is innate and has nothing to do with musicality. You probably do not even have it(I don't know you, do not take as an insult or w/e). You must simply have an amazing memory for pitches. But that's not having perfect pitch. The perfect pitch can indeed tell you the 440, how far you are from it. He can tell you the 435, 450, whatever you want. Perfect pitch is not a note thing. It's a frequency thing.

I didn't say it had anything to do with musicality.  Only that musicians have more probably been exposed to more accurate tuning than nonmusicians on a regular basis that would lend itself to a conditional occurance.

Again, you're splitting hairs by saying someone can tell you if a pitch is 440, 435 or 450, etc.  I'd be willing to bet  that many people COULD tell you if one or the other pitch is slightly under or over by that small amount, but the ability to VERBALIZE the exact frequency difference from 440 is nothing more than a conditional memory.  Find me a 4 yr old with perfect pitch and have him/her tell you the exact FREQUENCY of a note and they will not be able to do it.  Perfect pitch is a frequency thing..................... BUT those frequencies must be memorized for them to be useful.

[thalberg]

Doesn't it make you mad, though, that some people have amazing ears since childhood without doing anything for it, and yet others of us labor and labor in the hopes that someday we might have just a fraction of their abilities?  Not fair. 

[thierry13]

I didn't say it had anything to do with musicality.  Only that musicians have more probably been exposed to more accurate tuning than nonmusicians on a regular basis that would lend itself to a conditional occurance.

Again, you're splitting hairs by saying someone can tell you if a pitch is 440, 435 or 450, etc.  I'd be willing to bet  that many people COULD tell you if one or the other pitch is slightly under or over by that small amount, but the ability to VERBALIZE the exact frequency difference from 440 is nothing more than a conditional memory.  Find me a 4 yr old with perfect pitch and have him/her tell you the exact FREQUENCY of a note and they will not be able to do it.  Perfect pitch is a frequency thing..................... BUT those frequencies must be memorized for them to be useful.

Someone with perfect pitch can not tell you this has 440 or 435 or 430 hz. Because they do not count lol. But if they hear it ONCE then they will allways know it is 440 afterwards. It's like if somebody who is blind wakes up and suddenly can see. He won't be able to name colors, but if you show him this is red, this is pink, this is blue, etc. he will never "forget" what pink blue and red is. And he will be able to see the different shades of same color instantly (equivalent of the difference between 440 435 445). Of course if you play 440 and then 420 to somebody without perfect pitch they will be able to tell you that it's lower. But not how much exactly is it lower. It's not about counting the number of HZ. Even perfect pitch is a relative thing. But if you want an instrument tuned to 440, and that one with perfect pitch has heard a 440 once, then he will allways be able to tell you if you're too low or too high even of 5 or even less HZ.

[jlh]

Someone with perfect pitch can not tell you this has 440 or 435 or 430 hz. Because they do not count lol. But if they hear it ONCE then they will allways know it is 440 afterwards. It's like if somebody who is blind wakes up and suddenly can see. He won't be able to name colors, but if you show him this is red, this is pink, this is blue, etc. he will never "forget" what pink blue and red is. And he will be able to see the different shades of same color instantly (equivalent of the difference between 440 435 445). Of course if you play 440 and then 420 to somebody without perfect pitch they will be able to tell you that it's lower. But not how much exactly is it lower. It's not about counting the number of HZ. Even perfect pitch is a relative thing. But if you want an instrument tuned to 440, and that one with perfect pitch has heard a 440 once, then he will allways be able to tell you if you're too low or too high even of 5 or even less HZ.

So we agree then!! 

Do you see now what I meant by memory being a substantial factor in considering the phenomenon of "perfect pitch"?  It is not that those with perfect pitch are born knowing what 440 is, but that, once exposed to that standard and our classification and measurement of frequency and pitch are able to recreate that pitch on demand and name the pitch if one is given.  It is memory.  Pitch memory.  Some people are just better able to catalogue pitches and frequencies than others.  I also think that, just as memory can be improved by exercising and thinking a different way about data (hence all the memory courses available), pitch memory can also be improved by expanding the way one thinks about pitches and frequency. 

[keypeg]

Perfect pitch can be taught.  Others have it innately, and recognize a pitch the way we recognize cats and dogs but need to be told the name of what they have always seen.

Be that as it may, of what use is perfect pitch on the piano?  The instrument cannot be fine tuned by the player.  It is tuned in equal temperament.  That means to anyone with fine hearing of pitch, certain pitches in certain keys of certain notes sound "off" and the player hearing it can do nothing to fix it.  That is aggravating and uncomfortable, and I see no advantage to it.  Is there an advantage?

[slobone]

Perfect pitch can be taught.  Others have it innately, and recognize a pitch the way we recognize cats and dogs but need to be told the name of what they have always seen.

Be that as it may, of what use is perfect pitch on the piano?  The instrument cannot be fine tuned by the player.  It is tuned in equal temperament.  That means to anyone with fine hearing of pitch, certain pitches in certain keys of certain notes sound "off" and the player hearing it can do nothing to fix it.  That is aggravating and uncomfortable, and I see no advantage to it.  Is there an advantage?

Yes, if you're a piano tuner. Which any professional pianist needs to be, at least to the extent of knowing how to do emergency repairs when you arrive at a gig and find a horrific piano...

[goldentone]

Thanks for the info on David Burge, Thalberg.  I checked it out last night.
According to what he says, a person with perfect pitch is hearing music in a
more defined way than the rest, and they therefore know what they're hearing.
Music in High Def.

Well, I must have it.  I won't give up on this. 

We must press on. 

[anna_crusis]

It's like if somebody who is blind wakes up and suddenly can see. He won't be able to name colors, but if you show him this is red, this is pink, this is blue, etc. he will never "forget" what pink blue and red is. And he will be able to see the different shades of same color instantly

Actually I believe what really happens is that the newly-sighted patient is virtually colour blind. Similarly, children don't know colour names the instant they learn to speak. It takes a lot of time and effort before they learn to label colours. I'm not convinced at all that there exist children who would instantly remember what 443, 576 and 878.32 hz sound like.

I think it's just clarity of perception. The more vivid and lucid and objective one's inner hearing is, the better one is able to retain pitch.

[musicrebel4u]

Actually I believe what really happens is that the newly-sighted patient is virtually colour blind. Similarly, children don't know colour names the instant they learn to speak. It takes a lot of time and effort before they learn to label colours. I'm not convinced at all that there exist children who would instantly remember what 443, 576 and 878.32 hz sound like.

You touched a very important point, Anna. The evolution of human brain repeats itself in every individual. Recent study showed the right hemisphere of our brain develops first, because 'cave men' were relying on their senses. Abstract thinking, logic, conclusions – left hemisphere are developing later. Many music educators, unfortunately, don't know how gradually human perception is advancing from concrete to abstract. This is why the statement occurred: you 'label' color – they got it 'INSTANTLY'.

During my study in Music College and Conservatory I was unpleasantly surprised how poor the curriculum on psychology was made for musicians. Nevertheless, as far as I know, no music University teaches students the basics of physiological development and basic rules of human perception.

Sometimes, I think that many teachers treat students as aliens from different planet. It would be funny, if it won't be so sad

I think it's just clarity of perception. The more vivid and lucid and objective one's inner hearing is, the better one is able to retain pitch.

Yes!
And sometimes inborn absolute pitch CAN be on the way of developing ability to hear chords as T S D (not C E G – F A C – G B D), but DEVELOPED absolute pitch is not having any defect. It is a great plus for overall music development.

[point of grace]

i am also jelous of it, but i know pp comes with your adn.
what ive seen at my conservatory, is that those freaky children get bored very easy and early because they know lots of things (or at least they consider themselves in a higher position than ordinary students) and they drop the career, what ive seen in 2 years, 7 out of 10 students with pp dropped.
i also can recognise lots of notes in piano pieces, but it is because ive play the instrument for a lot of time and i know it very well...

what i never prove is that teaching music to little children, gives them this quality of a pp...

has anyone proved this???

[point of grace]

oh, i also think that a "relative ear" (the capacity of recognise allthe intervals) is much better than a perfect ear pitch

[anna_crusis]

The key that I am using is middle C major.  I just tested myself, and from these daily sessions of the past few days, lo, I do know middle C.  It may be an ambitious endeavor, but it just seems a matter of time in exposing oneself to the particular pitch until it is engrained, and then we'll know it when we hear it and we'll be able to hear it in our heads, and sing it.

I am interested in your responses.   

I don't want to seem too discouraging but I think this is possibly the exact *wrong* approach to take!

It seems to me that the thing that really muddles a person's sense of absolute pitch is the instinctive tendency to think of a pitch relative to other pitches. It starts when we're taught that the way you find, say, a B on the staff by first finding E and then going "Every Good Boy..." It then gets re-inforced by learning the sound of intervals and chords. Everything is framed in a relative way. You then end up automatically transposing what's in your head to fit in with the real sounds around you.

If you memorise, say, the sound of a D major chord, it's pretty easy to keep it in your head if no other sounds intrude. But if you suddenly step into an elevator and 'Bright Eyes' is playing in the key of Db then your brain straight away does that annoying little thing of adapting to what your ears are hearing. So when you get out of the lift you've no longer got a D major in your head - it's surreptitiously changed to Db major, perhaps without you even realising.

It's as if I'm thinking of the colour red, and then step outside and look up at the sky and suddenly I'm thinking of blue instead. Nobody does that, of course. You're taught from day one that colour is absolute and red is red, no matter what other colours are around. But not with pitch.

I think what is required is to disconnect your aural memory not only from the real world but your own tendency to look for relationships between different pitches. You don't want to be thinking, 'I know this is an E because I can hear that it's a fifth away from an A. You don't even want to be thinking 'in key'. You want a completely unshakable mental playback of a note that is not connected in any way to anything else.

If you were going to try and develop absolute pitch, I think you'd be best trying to avoid thinking about any kind of keys, scales, chords or anything remotely tuneful.

[thierry13]

So we agree then!! 

Do you see now what I meant by memory being a substantial factor in considering the phenomenon of "perfect pitch"?  It is not that those with perfect pitch are born knowing what 440 is, but that, once exposed to that standard and our classification and measurement of frequency and pitch are able to recreate that pitch on demand and name the pitch if one is given.  It is memory.  Pitch memory.  Some people are just better able to catalogue pitches and frequencies than others.  I also think that, just as memory can be improved by exercising and thinking a different way about data (hence all the memory courses available), pitch memory can also be improved by expanding the way one thinks about pitches and frequency. 

Yes ... and no. What I mean is that there IS a physiological factor in PERFECT pitch that has to be there ... of course, everything you learn is based on memory, so if you learn what 440 is, it's in your memory ... but there is a physiological thing about perfect pitch that makes it even easier to detect the exact 440 once they heard it. As I said I think, even perfect pitch is a relative thing. 435 alone does not sound out of tune or 445 alone does not sound out of tune ( of course they know by memory it IS out of tune, but it does not hurt their ear). Even people with "absolute" pitch have some kind of "relative" thinking. Note recognition and note memory CAN be learned, this is often called perfect pitch, but it is NOT. The ability to perceive small frequency differences can be developed too, but it is still NOT perfect pitch. There is something physiological about perfect pitch. May it be a phsyiological change in brain section of the ear or physiological change in the actual ear, it IS physiological. Some non-musicians have it even if they know less than nothing about music. They would consequently need no training in music to recognize notes ... they would need to put labels on them once, and it's done. Ability to recognize notes develops with time and is far easier to implement to children, as they will develop musical thinking as one of their basic language. That's normal, but it is NOT perfect pitch (even if it is so often called so).

[jlh]

It almost seems like you believe there is something, like a light switch, that determines perfect pitch.  I believe the occurance and acuteness of the perfect pitch "physiological" factor is more like a dimmer than a switch.  Of course it's physiological!  Talent for playing an instrument is largely physiological as well, but we all know that talent doesn't make one play the piano well.  You're might be right about some physiological change or difference in the ear, but I haven't seen any studies to corroborate this - do you have any?  I'm sure people might have perfect pitch tendencies who know nothing about music, but it's impossible to test such a phenomenon. 

It sounds as if you are unsure yourself what perfect pitch is, and as such you can logically determine who has perfect pitch even if they have perfect pitch recognition without a reference (widely considered perfect pitch).  I'm still unsure what you consider perfect pitch then...

[keypeg]

A person with perfect pitch does not consider whether something is out of tune, but what pitch it is at.  In tune-ness is relative.  If an orchestra is tuned to 440 then A at 435 is out of tune relative to the orchestra's tuning.  A pitch has a particular characteristic, just as blue has a particular characteristic.  Blue is blue.  Sy blue is very different from dark blue but they are both blue, and we perceive them all as blue, as well as being different in their blueness.  If you see something that is sky blue, you will say "Oh my, look at that sky blue cat strolling down the street."  You don't need a dark blue cat, or a red cat, in order to tell that this cat is sky blue.  It just is.

[anna_crusis]

The more I consider this subject the more I'm convinced that perfect/absolute/whatever pitch is actually a *less* sophisticated and more primitive way of perceiving pitch than the conventional 'relative' method.

I did a lot of experiments today, and I found that it's actually vastly easier to do than I'd previously imagined. The trick is not to do more but to do *less*. You don't think about how the notes relate to each other or anything else... you just let them float in your head in a kind of limbo.

To approach this I memorised a short tune in Bb minor (actually the theme from the X Files, but never mind...) and played it a few times (single notes) to get the sound of the piano notes firmly set in my head. Okay, nothing difficult about that so far... I then tried to keep the tune in my head while playing a variety of sustained organ chords in distant keys like E minor. As you'd expect, your brain straight away tries to adapt the notes in your head to fit into the new key, which is exactly what you don't want. It took quite a while before I could manage to 'let go' and allow the two to co-exist. It goes against the grain because it's dissonant and every musical instinct in you is to fix it. But once you get the hang of it you have an internal pitch reference that does not change.

I've just had someone test me and I managed to get about 90% of single notes right, with an average of about 5-10 seconds to answer. If it's possible to do that after only a single day, then I'm sure it can't take that long to get to the point where one can instantly identify any note on the piano.

I don't know if that's 'perfect pitch' or not, but it's clearly what the original poster was asking, so the answer to the question is 'yes'.

[keypeg]

Well, I wrote a while back that I received training in pitch recognition aka perfect pitch, and I described how it was done.  I got accurate enough that I once set a stringed instrument to ringing from across the room because I hit the note spot on and I must say it startled me to hear "someone playing" it when there was nobody else in the house.  There is also someone I know who has the "natural" kind - that is he has always perceived pitch in the way that you and I perceive a cat as being a cat.  What I have written before is based on both those experiences.  Yes, I do think it is less complicated than what people might think.  What seems to be missing in these threads, if I go by how I learned, is the idea of producing that pitch in the course of learning, rather than just recognizing it passively after the fact.

I still question its use for the piano. Someone has suggested that it's good to have for tuning a piano in an emergency but that doesn't address its usefulness in playing the instrument.  I find it almost detrimental, because you will hear when a pitch in certain keys "should" be slightly sharper or flatter, and you can't do anything about it.  Equal temperament is a compromise which in effect renders the piano slightly out of tune for certain keys.  It is highly disturbing to hear that when you play.

So again - what advantage, if any, does pitch recognition hold for piano playing?  For my money, it's relative pitche, and recognition of things along the line of chords and scales, that help with the piano.

[thierry13]

It almost seems like you believe there is something, like a light switch, that determines perfect pitch.

Yes. Note recognition is a result, an effect of PP. It is possible to teach note-recognition without having PP, but if you do not have it you will have to work at it. Or some child can learn the recognize notes instinctively. But that's still not PP. PP is much more than note-recognition.

[jlh]

Yes. Note recognition is a result, an effect of PP. It is possible to teach note-recognition without having PP, but if you do not have it you will have to work at it. Or some child can learn the recognize notes instinctively. But that's still not PP. PP is much more than note-recognition.

But given that there are varying degrees of the acuteness of perfect pitch among those clinically determined to possess the ability, how can you say that?  The very fact that varying degrees of proficiency exist indicates that it's not an ability one either possesses to the highest level or not at all.

I have determined you agree someone has perfect pitch ONLY if they possess a brain capable of deducing individual frequenciesto the acuteness of a spectral analyzer.  There are more levels of perfect pitch than a pure computer ability.  PP IS note recognition to a degree.

[keypeg]

Does it really have to be "clinically determined"?  It's not a health or science issue - it's music.  Has nobody at all worked with this or encountered it first hand?

[jlh]

Does it really have to be "clinically determined"?  It's not a health or science issue - it's music.  Has nobody at all worked with this or encountered it first hand?

I don't think it does.  thierry13 seems to dismiss most basic abilities commonly associated with PP as NOT being PP.  By thierry13's definition, I don't think it's humanly possible for one to possess PP.   I have PP.  I have been blind tested by university professors and colleages, by internet tests (the California one), and by casual testing of everyday noises such as desk bells and horns and fan buzzing.  thierry13 believes he can determine if one has PP without physically testing that person.  That alone should disqualify his reasoning.

[mikael.kallin]

I don't think it does.  thierry13 seems to dismiss most basic abilities commonly associated with PP as NOT being PP.  By thierry13's definition, I don't think it's humanly possible for one to possess PP.   I have PP.  I have been blind tested by university professors and colleages, by internet tests (the California one), and by casual testing of everyday noises such as desk bells and horns and fan buzzing.  thierry13 believes he can determine if one has PP without physically testing that person.  That alone should disqualify his reasoning.

Have you experienced any negative aspects of having pp? I've heard of people that has been laying sleepless hearing the radiator humming somewhere between e and f.

[jlh]

Have you experienced any negative aspects of having pp? I've heard of people that has been laying sleepless hearing the radiator humming somewhere between e and f.

haha that would be hilarious... but yes there are negative aspects.  Something I deal with on a regular basis (since I'm a staff singer at a church) is sight-reading a bass part when the song is transposed or when the wrong pitch is blown on a pitchpipe.  The latter I actually called the director on, because nobody noticed the wrong pitch had been given, even after singing it through once (song in E, pitch given in Eb), but I'm like "is this the key we're performing it in?", and the director said "yes, in E", and almost laughing, I told him he blew an Eb.  He repitched in E and we continued.

Transposing a bass part doesn't seem like a big deal, but when you're sightreading something, if you have perfect pitch, you're singing what you know those pitches to be, rather than JUST singing the intervals, as we're all taught to do.  Imagine sightreading something on an alto clef if you are not familiar with that clef and it's about the same.  If you know the song it's usually not a big deal, though.  I performed the Bach Passion of St. John last week and in preparation for that I was listening to one performance that was done in a Baroque tuning which was about a half-step flat from A440.  Reading along in one key and listening to it in another is a bit annoying! 

Listening to choirs or groups singing can be tough unless they have a good sense of pitch and a great deal of control (style aside).  Sometimes I find myself singing sharp, but then realizing everyone around me is singing flat, then in order to blend I have to also sing flat.  Out-of-tune guitars bug me, pianos needing a tuning usually make me look for a new practice room (the one I played on yesterday had an A at about A430...).

My parents' first piano was very old -- like 105 years old.  Too old to be tuned properly.  It was tuned to itself about a half step flat.  This posed problems for me when I started piano lessons...  I had gotten used to playing my pieces on that piano and when I'd go to play on the teacher's piano I could not ever play very well because I thought I was hitting all wrong notes!!!

Having people looking over your shoulder in a theory dictation exam because they know you always write the right notes down when the professor plays them gets old too. lol

[Bob]

jlh, how did you learn pp if that piano was out of tune?