db05's long term plan (5 years)

[db05]

Here is my plan for the next 5 years. I am currently taking a music course that includes piano lessons. It lasts 3 years, and I'm on 2nd year so I graduate in 2 years. After that, graduation recital. I can teach piano at the school when I graduate. I also want to join the grand recital next year- if I choose to teach I'd probably be disqualified to  - I hope I'd be at an advanced level by then. After grad recital, I have to choice either to teach or to audition for conservatory.

In accordance with Sir bernhard's ideas, I made a list of pieces I'd love to play in 5 years. The pieces I'm totally crazy about don't reach 100. Add required work and it may be enough though.  I include some "cute little pieces"; please don't stone me. And I may miss some important composers/ works.

3 short pieces bernhard introduced here: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7810.msg78598.html#msg78598
Satie - 3 gymnopedies
Schumann - Traumerei, Happy Farmer
Beethoven - Fur Elise, Moonlight, Pathetique Sonatas
Schubert - Moment Musical
Chopin Preludes No. 7, 20, 15 (Raindrop), etc
some Nocturnes
Waltzes in Db (Minute) and C#m
Fantaisie-Impromptu
Kuhlau - Sonatina in C
Mozart - Bread and Butter, Sonata in C, Sonata in A (Alla Turca), Fantasia in Dm, Twinkle Star Variations
Scarlatti - K 040, 032, 034, 208, 175, 213, 183, 197, 466
Albeniz - Suite Espana, Espanola I
Granados - Spanish Dance, Oriental
Debussy - Reverie, Girl with the Flaxen Hair, Suite Bergamasque
Bach - some inventions, sinfonias, WTC
Ravel - Prelude
Rachmaninoff - Prelude in C#m, Concerto No. 2
Liszt - Consolation, Liebestraum
Gershwin - Preludes, Rhapsody in Blue
Strauss - Blue Danube
Hambro - Happy Birthday, Ludwig
Dan Pi - Oops Fugue

In accordance with Sir lostinidlewonder's suggestion, I've started sight reading. I want to start easy, and slowly go through all levels. Note that I'm limited by my stock of books. Here is my sight-reading plan.

Piano Pieces for Children
Indroduction to the Romantic Era
Kuhlau Sonatinas Bk 1
Bach Inventions
Sinfonias
Scarlatti Sonatas (30 pcs)
The Joy of Chopin/ Chopin Selected Favorites
Well Tempered Clavier Bk 1
Chopin Etudes

Is this plan good? Am I missing something? Suggestions are most welcome! Thanks! 

[frank_48]

i think its a good plan, well layed out, but the hammerklavier? seriously? thats really quite a b*tch to play. probably takes ages to learn as well. maybe add a few more chopin preludes, heaps of fun to play and not really that hard.

my suggestions are:

in addition to what you already have,

Op.28 No.4
Op.28 No.2
Op.28 No.6
Op.28 No.9
Op.28 No.13
Op.28 No.10
Op.28 No.11

and definitely add some nocturnes.

[db05]

but the hammerklavier? seriously?

OMG LOL you're right. It's terrifying, but it's one of the few sonatas I loved when I first heard them.  And I have a hardcopy, with some notes on it. I was like, if my uncle played this, so can I. Totally forgot how long the score was. 70 pages?

I noticed I put WTC and Chopin Etudes in the sight reading list. Wow. If I can actually sight read those, Hammerklavier would be no problem. 

I'll check out the pres and nocs, thanks. 

[antichrist]

good luck! some of them are quite easy

WE support you!

[healdie]

it seems rather ambitious just a question do you wish to be able to play these pieces or play them well? there jsut seems to be alot of pieces here that will take a long time to get to a decent standard

but it seems to be a very varied repotoire but you seem to have stopped at the beginng of the 20th century i would consider including some more modern works in there as well

[db05]

it seems rather ambitious just a question do you wish to be able to play these pieces or play them well? there jsut seems to be alot of pieces here that will take a long time to get to a decent standard

but it seems to be a very varied repotoire but you seem to have stopped at the beginng of the 20th century i would consider including some more modern works in there as well

Only the first "bernhard hundred" list. And scratch out Hammerklavier. Will edit it out. I want to be able to sight read most anything at half tempo at least.

I don't know many modern composers. 

good luck! some of them are quite easy

WE support you!

Yay thanks. I know, I hope you like bread and butter LOL.

[loonbohol]

Try from composers of other nationality like Ryuichi Sakamato.
Though it may sound like Oriental.

1.) Merry Christmas Mr.Lawrence
2.) Etude.
3.) Energy flow
4.) Aqua
5.) Chanson

I have MIDI examples right down below.

[momopi]

^ I agree with loonbohol. Try non-western composers too - for variety. If I find someone interesting, I'll post it here.

Good luck.

PS: Can your post the link of bernhard's 100? (whatever that is...)

Loonbohol, I dl-ed the midi's...  Love them.

Momopi

[db05]

^ I agree with loonbohol. Try non-western composers too - for variety. If I find someone interesting, I'll post it here.

Good luck.

PS: Can your post the link of bernhard's 100? (whatever that is...)

Loonbohol, I dl-ed the midi's...  Love them.

Momopi

Thanks, momopi, loonbohol.

I believe I mentioned Sakamoto in loonbohol's other thread. I got some of his piano pieces, love Energy Flow by the way. But the title seems ironic. It drains the energy out of me.

Sir bernhard had a lot of posts in different threads, it's hard to find a specific one. Please pardon the delay.

Strategy for success...? - Bernhard's method
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2526.msg21829.html#msg21829

piano curriculum...? - "So, for 5-year plan proceed like so..."
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7872.msg79188.html#msg79188

Tip of the iceberg.

I'm not trying to convert anyone into bernhardism here, okay. 

[cai hong]

yay! good luck db! ^ ^ please catch up with me and I would love to share music with you! Well I would say some pieces that build up your skills are good!

*turns to chibi form,take pom-pom and smack the piano*
Go Go db
db,db,db
Go Go Go db
db,db,db,db,
yay!

[db05]

yay! good luck db! ^ ^ please catch up with me and I would love to share music with you! Well I would say some pieces that build up your skills are good!

If you take good care of *beep*, I will play ensemble with you. But if you are bad, I will take her and train her in my own method! 

I hear you cruel person.
Me no like you.

[cai hong]

If you take good care of *beep*, I will play ensemble with you. But if you are bad, I will take her and train her in my own method! 

I hear you cruel person.
Me no like you.

hey...me no like that...

[db05]

hey...me no like that...

Well you be good, little sis.

[cai hong]

Well you be good, little sis.

okay...

[db05]

okay...

I've wanted to ask you... cai, how did you learn to play like that? How long did it take, and what did you practice?

[cai hong]

I've wanted to ask you... cai, how did you learn to play like that? How long did it take, and what did you practice?

well I must say it's a long time and it's not easy...

[db05]

well I must say it's a long time and it's not easy...

I know someone who's been studying for more than 12 years and is still working on school of velocity, inventions, kuhlau sonatina and chopin waltz. His technique is good, he has good hearing, performance and memorization skill. Everyone agrees he's the best pianist in our class... and yet something is missing...

Considering that, this whole plan seems impossible. 

I don't want that type of learning. But most teachers here, they do the same things. And we all end up playing the same pieces. I want to show my teacher this list, but I'd have to convince her that this way is better than the old one.

[cai hong]

I know someone who's been studying for more than 12 years and is still working on school of velocity, inventions, kuhlau sonatina and chopin waltz. His technique is good, he has good hearing, performance and memorization skill. Everyone agrees he's the best pianist in our class... and yet something is missing...

Considering that, this whole plan seems impossible. 

I don't want that type of learning. But most teachers here, they do the same things. And we all end up playing the same pieces. I want to show my teacher this list, but I'd have to convince her that this way is better than the old one.

what do you mean is...you want more than the teacher set you up?

[loonbohol]

It is really a hard-setup yet I agree with the statement.

I thinks that he wants to be in one substance with the piano.

[db05]

what do you mean is...you want more than the teacher set you up?

Have you been trained like my classmate? Probably not, since he's been playing as long as you've been alive. See, it's a horribly inefficient setup. No, I don't want more, but entirely different. See where I'm going with this? Am tackling some of my classmates pieces, to prove to myself and my teacher what is doable.

It is really a hard-setup yet I agree with the statement.

I thinks that he wants to be in one substance with the piano.

You lost me. I am a girl, and yes I want a better relationship with the piano. The current system is too time-consuming, with little variety in repertory.  Okay, am babbling here...

blahblahblahblahblah







Back to topic. So is my plan doable and good? 

[loonbohol]

You lost me. I am a girl, and yes I want a better relationship with the piano. The current system is too time-consuming, with little variety in repertory.   Okay, am babbling here...

blahblahblahblahblah

Maybe your beauty captivates and makes that pianists  admind to deviate his attention to the piano then to you.   

And I think I have fallen in love with you.

Oh so romantic !.    Piano Romance     

!Joking!.

Lets go back to the topic.
As a lady then your plan is exactly the same plan as I met a certain Chinese guy who was once my role model.     
Go to my forum " Help in composing for details"

[m]

Here is my plan for the next 5 years... 

Lucky you--you are so organized, you can make a 5 years plan  . I cannot make one even for the next month... in any case, even if I do so, it gets changed many times, until I completely forget what was the original plan.

Best, M

[momopi]

Back to topic. So is my plan doable and good? 

maybe if you'll start working now, you can guage if your plan is feasible or not, sweetie. it's always good to have a plan but be open to fact that in 5 years, you'll probably change your plan several times. your plan should exist for your own convenience (eg to help you be more disciplined, etc), not the other way around...


 
Momopi

[pianistimo]

it's not a bad idea to become familiar with three levels.  pieces you can sightread.  pieces you are working for repertoire.  and pieces that are a bit of a challenge (working towards next level).  also - to work 3-4 pieces for repertoire at the same time and learning to 'juggle' and have everything 'cooked' at the same time.

here in the usa - there is a certain assumption that when a person passes a 'level' that they can play piano at that level, know theory/sightreading at that level, understand musical terms at that level, understand rhythms, etc. 

for you - you may be wanting microwave treatment (ie going through 2 levels in one year instead of 1).  to do this - you must practice more efficiently.  don't spend hours on technical exercises.  get right to your music and pick out areas that are difficult and need more work.  explain them to good teachers on piano forum - and get help to work them through.  there are many teachers who can 'break things down' and then put it back together.  sometimes it's learning a better fingering.  other times, it's understanding the concept or the form/analysis of the piece.

a lot of pianists think it is a waste of time to analyze pieces.  i think it is the very first thing an advanced student should set out to do.  one teacher suggested also, for memory, to photocopy/enlarge the piece and put it on a wall where you can look at it during the day.  i thought that was a novel idea.  also, you can tape record yourself and play the music back - or listen to cd's of someone else playing. 

i think the biggest problem for younger students is getting distracted from their repertoire by other fun pieces.  they practice for a little while seriously and then just go into playing for fun.  to increase skill - you have to increase intensity each week and stick to the music that is chosen until you play it well (not just so-so).

intensity used to be thought of as finger independence, and 'work work work.'  actually, piano is more about 'relax relax relax' - while your brain is working.  you can build up 'endurance' by being a long distance pianist and getting into a practice mindset.  some like to work a piece from the end backwards.  i don't think it matters as long as you somehow keep from working the beginning 100x and the end 20x. i think piano performers are like sous chefs learning to cook a meal and have everything hot at the same time.

[pianistimo]

ps i'd break the five-year plan down into ten sections of six months.  every six months - a new set of repertoire.  it's really pushing it because most students take the entire school year for their 4-5 or 6 pieces.  maybe pick 3-4 each six months and after you learn them - write them down on your repertoire list and keep working some of them even after you drop them.

if i were guiding you - knowing that you want to teach - i'd use the inventions as sightreading material and have you practice one or two measures ahead each day and sightread it for me to where you have to stop.

however, the scarlatti i would use as repertoire and seriously work two of them (they are typically played in pairs).  you can even make up your own pairs (d major /d minor)

use the books you have and play a bit of chopin, too!  don't pick what everyone works.  play something different.  something less well known.  that's my motto.  maybe as frank suggests - take some preludes  - but practice a nocturne for repertoire list.

the last piece - maybe the contemporary piece you mentioned - or buy saint-saens 'toccata.'  i've got the fingering to that - and once you can play that - well - you can play thirds really well.  the saint-saens 'allegro appasionata' is fun and interesting to play as well.

[concerto_love]

sounds great, db!!  I should try it too!! well... I think cai's talent is a natural talent since her cousin is a genius pianist in my country... 

[healdie]

I don't know many modern composers. 

Well Prokofiev, Shostakovich and Stravinsky are the big russian names but you should also check out Bartok,  there of course are many many others but these are some of the big names

these composers are popular and are gernerally accesible

then there are always the serialist composers of Berg, Webern, Shoernberg but this is an aquired taste

[momopi]

for memory, to photocopy/enlarge the piece and put it on a wall where you can look at it during the day. 

Good idea!!! 

but you should also check out Bartok

Microcosmos!!! 

[pianistimo]

Got that idea of photocopy/enlarging from lostinidlewonder.  I think he has good, formulated ideas and like him a lot for his many ideas. 

Forgot to say, also, that when teachers say the word 'analyze' - students first think - must analyze every chord.  I mean a shorthand.  Looking for 'points of articulation' which might be every page or two.  With the Scarlatti, typically at the page turns there is some shift to an upper register or something different that takes a 'turn' (or a trill or fermata).  You memorize to these points and if you get lost - skip to the next.  Then, as you get better and better you work our memorization to closer points to where you 'lost it.' 

Some may disagree and work out all the chords - as chords do help you get through memorization difficulties, etc.  It's just that knowing the basic flow of the piece is good enough as long as you know the key and where it changes key (another point of articulation).  Where the 'development' is - and 'recapitulation.'

By the time you are in your final year (maybe of five year plan) - you SHOULD be able to sit down and write out most of the piece without looking at your book.  You know the basic outline.  Nobody really does this - but if someone were to ask you - at least be able to write out the parts that have given you memorization difficulties.  Writing it down solidifies it more.

If your goals are teaching and performing at the end of five years - i'd try to do equal amounts of practice and studies.  If your goal is to teach - then you have a dillemma because some of teaching is studying all the methods that are out there and knowing what repertoire is available.  The repertoire part is always helped by practicing yourself - but the teaching part - a lot of that is study, observation!!! (very many different teachers), and adaptation of things that you consider important to each level.

Basically, you get yourself a notebook (maybe three).  The first one would be notes from your teacher on how to play each piece and specific technique help.  The second notebook could be gleaned off piano forum and be repertoire listing with grade levels (Torp did this for us - and there are other books - and also Pianostreet's own level distinctions).

The third notebook, divided into  many sections and covering many things regarding methods.  Success rates of methods may really be also quite dependent upon the teacher and their own input.  So...to break it down and be correct about graphs and charts - you might graph at the bottom the teacher's experience and training - and at the side - the type of method (or non-method - and natural question/response of teacher/student).  I would be interested also to study the old masters and how detailed their lessons were compared to today when people have less time to really do each part of a lesson (including ear training and theory).

[db05]

Lucky you--you are so organized, you can make a 5 years plan  . I cannot make one even for the next month... in any case, even if I do so, it gets changed many times, until I completely forget what was the original plan.

Best, M

I'm doing this to inspire and motivate myself. And if I don't list the pieces I like, I might get caught up in the usual repertory and forget I ever liked classical piano music.

Please don't think I am so organized. I started listing this July, and this it the 3rd version of my bernhard hundred. I actually included a bernhard fifty, for my guitar study. I haven't made a 3rd version of that one yet, and it seems too ambitious (guitar is harder, and I have a hard time acquiring specific guitar pieces).

What I cannot plan is my day-to-day study. I get mood swings; in fact I am feeling low these days, and once again I need to find my determination. It is there somewhere. When I am in a good mood, though, I have much good progress! I want to make the most out of those days, too. Having a plan does the trick.

---

So many suggestions by pianistimom here, thank you very much!! 

Regarding the level/year idea, my guitar study is actually done that way. 6 pieces and a few scales per grade. So if I get consistent, in 5 years, I'd have at least 30 pieces under my belt. That's not bad at all. But for piano, I find that really boring...

I'll always be sight-reading a few notches below my level, so those are 2 entirely different things. The sight-reading list, I think will take 10 years instead of 5. I've been debating memorizing vs sight-reading for a looooooong time, and decided I can't do without either.

I do have notes from this forum, printed out, reading relevant ones from time to time but not yet very organized about it. And I have the repertoire list; I needed it to gauge the levels of the pieces I want to play. Yes I did all that, and thank heavens I got lazy and wrote the list by composer. I intended to do it by difficulty. This is very realistic compared to other lists I've seen here that seem to include only virtuosic and show-off pieces.

I am THAT compulsive.

---

Yes, concerto_love, I suggest you get your goals on paper, too. It really helps. I actually got the idea not only from Sir bernhard, but also many self-help books/ articles. This is a well-known concept, effective but hard to carry out. So heaven help me.

[pianistimo]

Heaven can help you - but not always the way you expect.  Whatever you learn in college is really really important to your future job-market skills.  Spending hours practicing may not get you the best teaching position (which i think you are contemplating this problem).  If I were you - i'd start out by dividing up your time in such an organized way as you are doing with your studies.  To devote more than 15-20 minutes to sightreading, imo, is a waste of time.  Those minutes done every day will amount to  A LOT later.  Then, two hours or so of practice.  Get some exercise.  Do your other studies and include something that is totally NON-music related.  Might be a teaching certificate or something so you can teach music and math or music and art.  Music and art is a cool thing! 

Also, on the methods - you can just make a point on your own (withoiut taking a methods class, per se) of telling various teachers that you want to come and take a day to watch them teach if they will allow you to sit quietly in the back.  Then, take notes and start your thesis or paper early.  These things can only help you as a teacher later - and it won't be on some bizarre thing you'll never use - such as beethoven's last works (actually you might use that - but whatever - i'm just saying what the average person wants from piano lessons).  The things that pianists are typically interested in just don't pay.  I am extremely interested in beethoven's last works.  Who will pay me for that?  Nobody - unless i discover something extremely unusual that noone else has discovered.  Who even wants to touch or play the 'grosse fugue.'  The name itself sounds a bit repulsive - although - figuring out beethoven - he took music from haydn to the other extreme.  He really broke the sound barrier.  But, as i mentioned - nobody cares really excepting a few geeks that will talk with me at length about beethoven.

[concerto_love]

Can I copy yours for my basic project, db?

[db05]

Can I copy yours for my basic project, db?

Just use it as a template. You might not like everything I listed.

[concerto_love]

Yep, that was exactly what I meant!! sorry, it's hard to explain in English... >.<

[db05]

Yep, that was exactly what I meant!! sorry, it's hard to explain in English... >.<

Of course.  But ask Cai for suggestions. I think you need some technical exercises. Just don't overdo it. 1 hour for scales is too much.

[concerto_love]

Okay, thanks.  !!

[lostinidlewonder]

Your plan looks quite extensive and very exciting db! I would also add Czerny to your sight reading and perhaps some Burlow/Cramer Etudes? I like these pieces because of their close relationship to the standard patterns at the keyboard and their repetitive/transposition qualities.

Working on sight reading doesn't require you gradually increase the difficult of your reading as such, but rather that you target both your speed and accuracy of reading. Improving speed usually deals with music below your level, improving accuracy deals with music that harder, and trying to use both you should try music at your level. The exact method of practicing your reading skills however is a detailed discussion and depends on your current reading skills.

Such a long term plan requires smaller goals within it so make sure you stay on track. So as pianistimo suggested it might be a good idea to divide up your time.

[m]

I'm doing this to inspire and motivate myself. And if I don't list the pieces I like, I might get caught up in the usual repertory and forget I ever liked classical piano music.

Please don't think I am so organized. I started listing this July, and this it the 3rd version of my bernhard hundred. I actually included a bernhard fifty, for my guitar study. I haven't made a 3rd version of that one yet, and it seems too ambitious (guitar is harder, and I have a hard time acquiring specific guitar pieces).

What I cannot plan is my day-to-day study. I get mood swings; in fact I am feeling low these days, and once again I need to find my determination. It is there somewhere. When I am in a good mood, though, I have much good progress! I want to make the most out of those days, too. Having a plan does the trick.

It is great if you feel it helps you and you feel inspired by this plan. Hopefully, you will find great artistic inspiration and satisfaction in the repertoire chosen.
I have no idea what the Bernhard's hundred, or even fifty means, I however very much hope that in those 5 years you will expand this list considerably, and find out that, for example, Schumann wrote much more than Happy Farmer, or Traumerei, and Beethoven had some other pieces than Moonlight or Fur Elise.

Best, M 

[db05]

sis concerto, I'm glad you feel inspired by this. I hope you write your own plan, too and post it here. Verify with me and cai.

Sir lostin, Czerny is required work in our school. Actually, I hate it but it MUST be done. I don't sight read on or above my level because memorization is my SOP and I tend to focus on technique. Truth is, you can't really gauge my level since I'm working on different pieces at once and I get technique from those.

Short-term goals aren't really gonna work without my teacher's consent. I don't know what she'll give me next; I am surprised she brought up Kuhlau sonatinas this early! That's ahead of my plan. I haven't factored in required pieces and sonatas, grand recital and graduation recital!!  I have no idea what exactly to play. Grand r. is a competition. Graduation r. I think requires works from different eras. A suite, concerto, pieces and sonata maybe. Not sure how I'm going to fill in the holes in this plan.

It is great if you feel it helps you and you feel inspired by this plan. Hopefully, you will find great artistic inspiration and satisfaction in the repertoire chosen.
I have no idea what the Bernhard's hundred, or even fifty means, I however very much hope that in those 5 years you will expand this list considerably, and find out that, for example, Schumann wrote much more than Happy Farmer, or Traumerei, and Beethoven had some other pieces than Moonlight or Fur Elise.

Best, M 

LOL, I got only the idea from Sir bernhard's posts and gave it a name. Also known as Bernhard's Five-Year Plan. The list of 50 is something I made up myself, for my minor instrument.

I know there are many works by these composers, the problem is I don't know if I like them or if they are even possible to play in 5 years. At first I included Hammerklavier sonata, which I actually like, but it doesn't seem feasible so I edited it out. Schumann sonata is also very difficult. I'd definitely expand the list to accomodate lesser-known/ underrated composers. Let all the other students play their Beethoven, Chopin and Liszt. There are more interesting works that might even be technically more accessible.

Thanks for all the suggestions!! Am feeling sick right now   ; so more work... in the mind/ planning level that is...

[tanman]

have you considered adding some scriabin to the list?

[db05]

have you considered adding some scriabin to the list?

I don't know. I have only like, 3 pieces on audio and a few sheets. Nothing I really liked.

[tanman]

I don't know. I have only like, 3 pieces on audio and a few sheets. Nothing I really liked.

or what about some more modern?

[db05]

or what about some more modern?

Yes please. And I shall rethink the Scriabin.

[shinerl]

or what about some more modern?

Definitely you might get sued to court due to copyright infringement.

[loonbohol]

Is it public performance?

[ptyrrell]

no brahms.............shame

[tanman]

what about sorabji OC? 

[db05]

Is it public performance?

Hopefully I get to perform in public as much as I can.
All of you guys are invited to my graduation recital.  If you can come.

have you considered adding some scriabin to the list?

no brahms.............shame

what about sorabji OC? 

Sure, sure, either I'll replace some of my list or I'l work on them after 5 years. I still have the rest of my life, you know. Certainly not gonna die after just 100 pieces. 

[tanman]

what about sorabji OC? 

Certainly not gonna die after just 100 pieces. 

are you sure about that? 

[db05]

are you sure about that? 

Well, I did include Fantaisie Impromptu, Moonlight, Pathetique, Hammerklavier and Rach 2 in my list... I might die trying one of these pieces. In that case, I won't live to hear myself play Sorabji.

Now I'm curious, what so special about OC? Can you send me a copy?