how would you teach a student who is musically talented, but...

[etcetra]

I was thinking about my situation and problems.. and I was wondering how would you teach someone who is showing a lot of musical talent, but has very difficult time with the physical aspect of playing the instrument? 

Let's say you have this student... he has really good years, and he plays very musically.  But you can tell he has coordination problems even before you start teaching him.. (he is very clumsy).  He has hard time progressing technically.. it seems like it takes extra effort for him to do things that is easy for others.  But at the same time when you hear him play, you hear moments.. at his best you hear him play with such musicality and maturity that it surprises you.. he plays just as musically as any of your experienced, advanced student, if not more. 

what would you do if you have a student like that?  In some ways you are  frustrated with this student, but in some ways you really want to see him develop.. you want to hear what he can possibly do with more advanced pieces if he ever gets there.

[db05]

I am not (yet) a teacher but I'll give it a shot. Pretend I'm a teacher and this guy is my student (not you though).

I'd give him the advanced pieces that he has the musicality to play. The technique or coordination is a matter of time and patience. If the "ordinary" student spends a month learning a piece, I'll give him 2-3 months. I think being stuck on the lower levels will only frustrate him even more. I have to show him what he is capable of, if he hasn't realized it himself.

On the technique/ coordination side, there should be exercises, but the kind that take up very little time so we can dedicate the rest to the pieces. Stretches can be done away from the piano. Breathing exercises to relax. Easier pieces HT or scales and arpeggios HS and he should be warmed up and ready to go.

I cannot stress enough the importance of HS practice and memorization in this case. People with better coordination can sight read easily and even memorize HT without going through HS work. With bad coordination, one must rely on aural and muscle memory to fill in the gaps. Better yet, learn a lot of theory and strive to understand pieces from there.

[hyrst]

Someone who is very musical will possibly get incredibly frustrated playing pieces badly that they can hear should be played differently.  I would avoid pieces that are beyond the ability to play, but would spend more time on short exercises - and make them as fun as possible.  However, I would try to help them find pieces that are not technically demanding but are very musically demanding - use strengths.  I would be glad that they want to play and are trying hard.  I would seek to always identify their progress because undoubtedly there would be times when we both feel frustrated.

[etcetra]

btw  I want to let you know that I am not actually dealing with a actual student.. what I described is based on how I was as a beginning student, and from the experience of my piano teacher friends.

hyrst,

that is very true.. someone who is very musical can be more picky about their performance.. and maybe too sensitive/critical about what they do.  They can be picky about the pieces they want to play too.. i think the frustrating part about it is that the student is already hearing how they want to play the big pieces, but they are just not physically equipped to play them yet.

It's kind of opposite of how you teach most kids.. most kids learn the notes and you have to spend time teaching them about phrasing ..etc but musical kids have all the musical aspect of piece in mind when they play.

db05

I agree with what your saying.  I think in the end you just need to be patient and have faith that in the end this student will be able to do just as well as other, even if it takes more time for him.  I know I had trouble riding a bike, it took me a week to learn, but now i can ride the bike just like anyone else.

[db05]

I agree with what your saying.  I think in the end you just need to be patient and have faith that in the end this student will be able to do just as well as other, even if it takes more time for him.  I know I had trouble riding a bike, it took me a week to learn, but now i can ride the bike just like anyone else.

However, I am reminded of the fact that although I can hold a pen and write, my way (or technique) of holding it has always been wrong. Also I think very differently than everyone else. Some things cannot be fixed. There are just strengths and weaknesses.

[keypeg]

I would say that if you are musical then you will hear that something is missing and want to find that missing thing.  Secondly, you will have that musical vision and reach for it any way you can and can end up doing things awkwardly without waiting to be taught.  You may appear to know more than you do, to be advanced, say, but not have the technical underpinnings.  If you are musical or talented then you need the basics to be solid, because everything is built on them but there is a danger of being fast forwarded by a teacher because you seem to be learning so quickly.  At some point there will be frustration, because if technique and the underpinnings are not there you hit a brick wall, because again - you will hear and feel that something is missing that you want to have there.

[etcetra]

keypeg,

that is very true.. i think the problem with people who good ear/musicality is that their ears are  always ahead of what their hands can do... they might have the overall vision to tackle larger pieces but they simply do not have the facility to play those pieces.  It's also tough because facility on the instrument is something that just takes time to build.  So it becomes a challenge to find pieces that are not technically too demanding but musically rewarding for them. 

I remember when i was younger i played some of the easier chopin preludes and nocturnes, and they were very rewarding musically without being too difficult, and those pieces were where I seemed to have excelled in.

[keypeg]

If you're an adult in that situation (read: extremely late starter) and if you realize the situation, then you are not focussed on pieces, though.  You want the technical things and you'll actually have to slow down and backtrack in a sense.  I don't know if that would work in non-classical, though.  Like, does everything always have to be pieces?

[db05]

You know I COULD be wrong on my first post. Depending on the extent of the weaknesses, teacher should be able to break it to the student that he may never have the technical proficiency to play advanced works. And he's better off being a sort of critic or musicologist. Or a teacher. Not anyone can be a performer. But you don't have to be.

[etcetra]

db05,

I am not sure about that..  if i was a teacher i will take responsibility for their students failure first before I place blame on their natural ability.  I remember reading about how Einstein failed math in school, and i am guessing that people who taught him thought maybe he was just not teachable. 

And i've also seen people who made HUGE progress studying with the right teachers.. I know a lot of students who were ok at best when they started, but by the time they were graduating they were going to top graduate schools with scholarships.  Nobody expected them to play at the level they do now.

I know so many things in life that people thought i would just never be able to do.. i had a lot trouble with riding a bike, or driving a car, but i did manage to do it, it took me a while to figure out what it feels to do it right but i did find it.. i know people who are missing finger/s and they are able to play pieces like fantasie impromptu.

so i am reluctant to blame my inability to physical limitations because I can always use that as a clutch/excuse. .and i know people in worse situation who is able to achieve what i couldn't..

keypeg,

I don't really play much classical pieces nowdays.. i usually make differnt topics to practice.. like learning patterns in differnt keys.. i did A LOT of slow practice in the last 6 months and I made an unbelievable progress.. i feel like i progressed more in the 6months  than i did in the last 4 yrs. 

I don't know if this make sense but it seems like i had 4/5 criteria for good facility but i was missing that 1 that was holding me back, and now that I am fixing that problem, i seem to be 'catching up' to where i am supposed to be' .. its hard to describe, but fixing that problem made me realize that things are a lot easier than i thought...

its like whatever wall i was facing was not that big of an obstacle once I
change my perspective.. because I realize I can sneak past the cracks rather than climbing through it.

[db05]

I am not sure about that..  if i was a teacher i will take responsibility for their students failure first before I place blame on their natural ability.  I remember reading about how Einstein failed math in school, and i am guessing that people who taught him thought maybe he was just not teachable. 

And i've also seen people who made HUGE progress studying with the right teachers.. I know a lot of students who were ok at best when they started, but by the time they were graduating they were going to top graduate schools with scholarships.  Nobody expected them to play at the level they do now.

I know so many things in life that people thought i would just never be able to do.. i had a lot trouble with riding a bike, or driving a car, but i did manage to do it, it took me a while to figure out what it feels to do it right but i did find it.. i know people who are missing finger/s and they are able to play pieces like fantasie impromptu.

so i am reluctant to blame my inability to physical limitations because I can always use that as a clutch/excuse. .and i know people in worse situation who is able to achieve what i couldn't..

To quote myself:

However, I am reminded of the fact that although I can hold a pen and write, my way (or technique) of holding it has always been wrong. Also I think very differently than everyone else. Some things cannot be fixed. There are just strengths and weaknesses.

Yeah, Einstein was said to be dyslexic, so school didn't work out. But he was a genius, no doubt. People like these aren't "normal" and don't fit in "traditional schooling". Mozart might just make it to graduate school, but not Beethoven. (It's a joke LOL.)

Geniuses aside:

I assumed that the coordination problems were because of natural ability, and not faulty teaching. Faulty teaching can be undone. A mental or physical problem, no. So the people who made progress, they had great natural ability but were hampered by bad teaching. You can even have missing fingers but have incredible technique. 

You have to gauge for yourself the possibility of achieving something, but wouldn't using your uncommon strengths be a better use of your time than trying to be "normal", playing what everyone else plays? Also it is frustrating to feel that you have to cope with something or catch up on something. The problem becomes psychological.

It dawned on me recently that the piano repertoire is so huge, you can enjoy the rest of your life playing up to Grade 3 if you are so inclined. People are so obsessed with technique (myself included) when we should just enjoy making music. I'd prefer a beginner piece played musically to a virtuoso piece with no emotion any day.

And don't be too hard on yourself. You never really know if another person is in a worse situation. 

[etcetra]

thats true, the most important thing is that you enjoy music, I know a lot of asian pianists who are proficient but they end up hating music because they were forced to practice.. which is a shame.

I personally enjoy the challenge, of being able to do new stuff, and the thought of what I can create with that high level of musicality excites me.  right now i only see the potential of what i can do, I notice it in my composition... I received so much encouragement from my friends, from people i look up, Its reassuring when a very accomplished musicians tells me how my composition was inspiring for them.. It's just that my facility is not there to physically play at the level where my ear/my compositions are

i guess thats why I really want to see it through to the end.  it doesnt matter when i get there as long as i get there.. as far as i am concerned i am not sure if i've done enough to really know what my physical limitations are.. I just think its hard to really know where one's limitation lies.. because it could be physical or mental. 

[kard]

I hope this natural ability nonsense dies. and all the other useless imagery with it. It is a terrible mindset to have because it just builds up this sense of immense difficulty. The problem is that hardly anybody has bothered to develop universal solutions to basic technique problems (and the definition of basic technique). Otherwise those basic ideas never hit mainstream because of the idea that "Some can't play it because they're simply not good enough/wasn't meant to be" or whatever. It blocks the learner/teacher from simplifying problems to find solutions and from developing patience. The isolationist culture of piano is also another huge contributor because knowledge and enthusiasm is not shared as quickly as with community instruments.

[etcetra]

kard,

I agree.. lately i am starting to realize that my problems may have more to do with being taught wrong than my lack of natural ability.  Its true that some people need more time to learn, but i think people are capable of  reaching high level unless they have some major physical/mental problems.  The problem with being taught wrong is that your bad habits makes it harder to learn.. its ironic but it gives the teacher the impression that you lack the sufficient talent to excel in piano playing when in reality its his/her method that is the problem. 

As i have said else where, i had chance to talk to several very talented people who people would call "natural".. and it really came down to the fact that they had excellent practicing habits.  They practiced with high level of intellegence, discipline and concentration...and they were the most meticulous students when it comes down to mastering technical problem  usually someone taught them to practice that way along the way. 

I think a good practice habit is very counter-intuitive but its an essential part of music, but a lot of people just don't have it.  If there is such thing as talent, its the ability to practice with intellegence and having the discipline and concentration to maintain that level of practice. once you have that you should be able to play anything.. as long as you have the patience to keep on going and not quit

[kard]

Definitely. I saw your other thread as well. I've seen my new teacher probably around 4 times now and I can definitely say I've improved. He insists on a specific sound or attention to detail and my practice time is devoted towards finding the most natural and comfortable way to achieving that. This addition doesn't just become a one time "I move this way for this song," it is a conscious re-evaluation of how the hands are used.

The major observation from my last practice is that good piano sound comes from a fast, vertical impact, like that of a mallet hitting a xylophone, but yet the grasping motion of the hand at the piano is almost horizontal. The resolving of this conflict comes through the multi-jointed structure of the hand and cutting through the lag between the key surface and the keybed all while being relaxed and natural.

I'm sure once I get back, I'll find something wrong with that simplification, but I'll find it, and fix it, and make sure to simplify the approach even more. 

[etcetra]

kard,

that is very true.. i remember my last teacher was very attentative about how to use your body naturally to produce the right sound, much like your teacher.. very few teachers seem to teach like that.

I think for me the biggest obstacle was keeping a steady support on my finger/hand when i play.. I had hard time supporting my arm weight with my fingers which resulted in inaccuracy and uneveness, its like playing with a mallet stick that is too flexible.. I am still working on it, but its light years better than what it was couple of months ago.. i just wish i knew this 7 yrs ago when i started college.. it would have saved a lot of trouble and maybe even injury.

[amelialw]

I have this problem too...it's just that over the years, i've been able to overcome it gradually. it's not gone yet but i will sometime. This problem of mine started to gradually lighten when I when to my teacher in canada about 6 yrs ago. I was very musical but technically very weak. She said that she took me as her student because I had something special.

When I went for competitions, exams for the past 5 years, the comments would always be something like this: needs more technical work but has some very nice musical passages, well expressed or Musically played excellently but needs more work on technical passages. My teacher was often astonished how well I was capable of expressing the music and she said in that sense I somehow managed to make up for the lost of marks by showing my strength. She made me practice alot of technique, many grueling hours of hard work, even up to now I still do it although i've improved alot.

[go12_3]

Good for you, amelialw!  Keep working on the technique.  It's hard work to keep it up, but in time, the technique will become more strengthened.  I have been working more on the technique because it wasn't my greatest strength.  And, of course, there will always be improvement.    

Good luck!

go12_3

[etcetra]

Ameliaw.

That is very nice to know.. I was in a same situation but i was not blessed with a good teacher... instead i had teachers who gave me too much finger exercise and encouraged me to play with tension.. I started having problem with my hand 4 month into the program and I've been struggling with tendonitis ever since

Lately i am wondering whether the same teacher would say the same thing about my technique back then if i was 10 years younger.. I mean if I was 8 and I was playing Bach invention in my second year, that doesn't seem so bad at all.  maybe the idea of where your technique is "supposed to be" that is misleading... maybe its a bias.

Technique is something that just takes time to build, and if you start late, its normal to have a developed technique later in your life, it may be simple as that.  Maybe it would be a lot easier if teachers just drop this idea that a student has to be develop by a certain age in order to make it, and so on, and just be there to assist the students in their path, at whatever level they are... because if they have potential, it will develop and blossom over time.. and I dont think finger exercise on steriods is the answer.

[dan101]

I try to get my 'clumsy' students to slow down. It's not an easy sell, but it's vital to their quality of playing.

[etcetra]

dan101

that is a good point.. I also realized that often times 'clumsy' students play that way out of nervousness.  It may even be a challenge for these students to 'relax', but its important to get over the psychological part.. I think the important thing is not to blame the student's apparent lack of talent for their lack of progress and explore other possibilities.

Besides you never know when that growth spurts hits.. There are so many people I met in college who were clumsy when the started, but with the right instruction they went really far with their playing, way beyond most people's expectations.

[loonbohol]

THat is like me (the teacher) teaching me, Myself and I.

THat is also my problem.

[franzliszt2]

I think if a child has coordination problems with the piano, you should remove the piano from the problem. Get him to play the piece on a table, and then all he will focus on is coordination. He will get used to the feeling of the hands and fingers doing small movements together. You must do this with the student though, and make it sound like a game. Usually they will just do it.

Then tell them to do it on the piano, but again make it just sound like a game, and then hopefully it should have solved the problem. Demonstrate to the child a lot as well, you will be amazed how much they will learn from watching and listening. If they are very talented they will probably play things back to you from ear. If so, you could play a one line melody to the child, and make him repeat it back to you. Do this a few times, then add one LH note, and tell him to repeat the passage, and I bet you will find he will play it, and then just get more and more complicated and see how far you can go with it.

[go12_3]

Ameliaw.

That is very nice to know.. I was in a same situation but i was not blessed with a good teacher... instead i had teachers who gave me too much finger exercise and encouraged me to play with tension.. I started having problem with my hand 4 month into the program and I've been struggling with tendonitis ever since

Lately i am wondering whether the same teacher would say the same thing about my technique back then if i was 10 years younger.. I mean if I was 8 and I was playing Bach invention in my second year, that doesn't seem so bad at all.  maybe the idea of where your technique is "supposed to be" that is misleading... maybe its a bias.

Technique is something that just takes time to build, and if you start late, its normal to have a developed technique later in your life, it may be simple as that.  Maybe it would be a lot easier if teachers just drop this idea that a student has to be develop by a certain age in order to make it, and so on, and just be there to assist the students in their path, at whatever level they are... because if they have potential, it will develop and blossom over time.. and I dont think finger exercise on steriods is the answer.

I really like that idea.....thanks for sharing!   = ) 

[etcetra]

I think if a child has coordination problems with the piano, you should remove the piano from the problem. Get him to play the piece on a table, and then all he will focus on is coordination. He will get used to the feeling of the hands and fingers doing small movements together. You must do this with the student though, and make it sound like a game. Usually they will just do it.

Then tell them to do it on the piano, but again make it just sound like a game, and then hopefully it should have solved the problem. Demonstrate to the child a lot as well, you will be amazed how much they will learn from watching and listening. If they are very talented they will probably play things back to you from ear. If so, you could play a one line melody to the child, and make him repeat it back to you. Do this a few times, then add one LH note, and tell him to repeat the passage, and I bet you will find he will play it, and then just get more and more complicated and see how far you can go with it.

That's very good point.. maybe all that these kids needs is a little catching up in areas that they are lacking.. after that they will be in the same place as everyone else.  Maybe its not so much talent but for one reason or other they did not develop these skills at an early age. 

It's harder as you get older, because they are more like to assume that its the lack of natural ability.  I had the same problem, I actually had to learn what good coordination was suppose to feel like but after that, things became much easier.  It's not so much that I was uncordinated but I didn't know what that was supposed to be like, I was just not used to using my mind/body that way.

Go12_3,

thanks =)  It's funny I feel like I am improving a lot more now that I am done with college and working things out on my own.. I know my teachers and others accomplished musicians who were thought of as being "hopeless", and they all seem to make tremendous strides only after they finish  college ..nobody would have thought that they would be where they are right now musically.  so i guess great achievements can happen at any time.. (at least in jazz)