Difficult Pieces

[melia]

Hi guys, I was wondering is it dangerous to learn pieces that are way above your level or should it be treated as a challenge that a good amount of practice can overcome? Do you stay away from such pieces as something your not supposed to play?  Anyway, just wondering cause I am shy to ask my teacher to teach or show me the 'difficult' pieces . So, I learn it quietly by myself by listening to recordings, 'wrestling' with those difficult passages, asking advice from this forum etc.. until I can finally play it! It takes months of hard work, but I like the challenge. I then play it for family and friends, and ask for their opinion. Is this wrong? I just don't know why I am scared to ask my teacher, I am doing all this by myself and kind of feel guilty too. I am just wondering if I can do this by myself, why am I paying her for?

[greyrune]

I wouldn't hugely recommend it.  I did spend months learning a peice that was too hard for me but even though i could then play a decent peice, if i'd worked on three or four less hard peices i could have worked to the same level during that time and had three or four peices to play instead of one.  Also being able to play one hard peice doesn't really help you get toward the level of that peice as much as working toward it with other peices.  On the other hand it is nice to be able to sit down and play something nice if you don't have any other fun peices to play yet.  It's up to you really but i wouldn't.  As for needing your teacher, if you learn a hard peice by yourself you may be able to play it but without a teacher you'll probably never see half the things you're doing badly, if not wrong, a teacher will always help you play better.

[shasta]

Anyway, just wondering cause I am shy to ask my teacher to teach or show me the 'difficult' pieces . So, I learn it quietly by myself by listening to recordings, 'wrestling' with those difficult passages, asking advice from this forum etc...

...I just don't know why I am scared to ask my teacher, I am doing all this by myself and kind of feel guilty too. I am just wondering if I can do this by myself, why am I paying her for?

Melia, million bucks your teacher would be thrilled to learn about your interest/desire to attempt more challenging pieces.  What are you afraid of? 

YOU HAVE EVERYTHING TO GAIN, NOTHING TO LOSE! 

At best, your teacher will say "Wow, I didn't realize you're so gung-ho!!  OK, let's tackle this piece together... let's start out by mastering the RH in the cadenza for next week..."   

At worst, your teacher will say "Well, you're not quite ready for that piece, but here's a piece by XYZ that's similar in structure/style to the piece you like that I feel you should master first... maybe next year let's come back to your piece." 

So what?  Even if he/she says the latter, it doesn't mean you still can't work on it in your own time!!  Again, you can only GAIN by informing your teacher of your interests!!  Good luck!

[Rach3]

Hi guys, I was wondering is it dangerous to learn pieces that are way above your level

Short answer: Yes, it's dangerous. If it's 'way above your level', not only will you not be able to master it, you will spend a lot of time forcing your fingers to do things they don't like doing, causing bad habits, poor technique and in the worst case physical injury. Also, you'll be spending much less time on music which could actually be beneficial to you.

Melia, million bucks your teacher would be thrilled to learn about your interest/desire to attempt more challenging pieces.  What are you afraid of?

YOU HAVE EVERYTHING TO GAIN, NOTHING TO LOSE! 

Unrealistic. There' s plenty to lose - the opportunity to actually learn a piece of music and master it, for instance. A teacher who would willingly encourage a student to overreach themselves would be inconsiderate. When I attempted a certain nameless concerto (hint: it's my name) at age 12, my teacher would have nothing to do with it - it's not that I couldn't work on it by myself in secret, he just would not give me any help on it. So I stopped and focused on my real repertoire then. Four years later, it was a different story... 

melia - Could I ask what pieces you were attempting on your own? They're not by any chance by Rachmaninoff, are they? 

[shasta]

Unrealistic. There' s plenty to lose - the opportunity to actually learn a piece of music and master it, for instance. A teacher who would willingly encourage a student to overreach themselves would be inconsiderate.

There is nothing to lose by bringing your musical interests to the attention of your teacher.

[Kassaa]

I once started the Op. 53 polonaise, I totally screwed it up. Although I memorised it and could play it from begin to end, it sucked arse, all the jumps were going wrong, no matter how long I practiced them.

My advise, don't start a too difficult piece.

[anda]

Hi guys, I was wondering is it dangerous to learn pieces that are way above your level or should it be treated as a challenge that a good amount of practice can overcome?

depends on why is *this* work so "way" above your level - can you really master it with "a good amount of practice"?

personally, i'm all for learning works above the current level, but not for rachmaninov 3rd after 2-3 years of piano

my advice: decide which works you would really like to play and talk to your teacher about them.

best luck

[steinwayguy]

I once started the Op. 53 polonaise, I totally screwed it up. Although I memorised it and could play it from begin to end, it sucked arse, all the jumps were going wrong, no matter how long I practiced them.

My advise, don't start a too difficult piece.

Sounds like my Mephisto Waltz a year ago...


The only way you're going to improve is by playing pieces "above your level". And as firm a believer of "if there's a will there's a way", don't waste your time by playing pieces that are just    to you.

[faulty_damper]

It depends on what "above your level" means.  There are many aspects to music and they all have varying degrees of difficulty.  It could be rhythm, tempo, technique, musical, reading, etc.  If you break a piece down to the simplist aspects, and learn it, it will be much easier to grasp than to do all of it at once.

A piece may have complex rhythms that are very difficult to read with correct pitches but if only the rhythm is isolated it will be much easier.  Once rhythm is grasped, the correct pitches can be taken in isolation.

If it is technique that is "above you level" this could potentially be harmful if it is practiced inefficiently/incorrectly.  Unfortunately, "technique" is too general a term to describe the many processes that occur in movement.

[pianocrazy]

i think playing such pieces is great. of course, dont play pieces that are way way abov ur levl  as it might turn out to be a waste of time if after that you still cannot play it well.

playing abov-level pieces is good, (i think), cos it let u play nice pieces and improves ur skills. 

[Dazzer]

Personal story.

2 years with my old teacher: haydn sonata. bach prelude and fugues. beethoven sonata. countless czerny.
3rd year :
me- man i don't want to do this. i want to do something else.
result: rachmaninov etudes-tableaux bk2no1, prokofiev suggestions diabolique, rach preludes.
4th year
more rach etudes. plus some other stuff from teacher - prokofiev conc 1.

etc etc.

For me, i didn't actually tell my teacher what i was working on . I'd work on what i wanted along the side with what my teacher asked me to work on. Then when i had a recital or an assessment, this happens:

natalya i have an assessment coming up like... next week.
she: really!? what will you play?
me: well... i was thinking maybe of playing this (takes out score) i've been learning it for awhile now and was hoping you can help me fine tune it?
she: okay. lets have a look then.

eventually she got the hint, and rarely gave me any new repetoire unless i asked for it. lol. of course, if i felt the piece is wayy over my head, i knew i should stop. which i did for the rach 2nd sonata. If in doubt, consult the teacher. simple. she'd tell me bluntly whether i'd be able to play it or not. (of course, much to my dismal she told me i wasn't ready for any rach concertos... ) but i feel at least you aren't just following directions . you're taking control of yourself, and with some guidiance, you're leading yourself down your own path. And at least it should be an enjoyable one. for why else would you pick a piece?

dangerously though, you might end up with very unbalanced repetoire, as you see with my case... severe lack of baroque, classical pieces. Barely anything else other than russian music. Big disadvantage to me, i guess... So i guess... consult your teacher before anything else.

[026497]

What is the meaning of "difficult pieces"?
If you like the piece, nothing is difficult.
When I was young(although i am not old now), I was 'in love'with a grade 6 sonata(i was grade 2 at that time). I didn't know it at first and nobody told me. I was known after i finished the piece and my teacher encouraged me to join a grade 5 competition. I won the third prize! Isn't is amazing?
I advise you don't mind the grading of a piece too much. Sometimes, a piece of grade 2 can frustrate you. The piano tenique of it is grade 2, but it is hard to play it good.   

[Rach3]

What is the meaning of "difficult pieces"?
If you like the piece, nothing is difficult.

This is terrible advice. That's the only reason people crash trying to play something they can't - they've fallen in love with the piece, and deluded themselves. I've been there. If you really like one particular piece, and people tell you you shouldn't attempt it, then you need to realize you're only human, and enjoy the piece in other ways than learning it.

[026497]

That's the only reason people crash trying to play something they can't - they've fallen in love with the piece, and deluded themselves. I've been there. If you really like one particular piece, and people tell you you shouldn't attempt it, then you need to realize you're only human, and enjoy the piece in other ways than learning it.

Please tell us your experience. I really want to know.

[Rach3]

"Rach3" says it all.

[6ft 4]

Here's the thing:


You play a v. difficult piece and learn it after about a year.

OR

You play pieces at ur level for 6 months get some nice repetoire
you play a more difficult piece after this but having improved it takes less time, around 6 months.
Thus u have the difficult piece AND other pieces AND you've gotten more experience.