Erratic Mistakes

[M_B]

I am working on Bach's Invention No. 1 currently, and am using it as a piece to learn Bernhard's method.  I am currently in the HS stage measures 1 - 15.  The piece isn't challenging technique-wise as I have been playing for quite a few years (wasted as they might be), but it really brings out a flaw that has always been in my playing.  Each of the 7 times I repeat the measures, I mess up in a different place.  I got the full seven repeats because its never perfect.

I know the piece really well, though.  If I had blank sheetmusic infront of me, I could write it out.  I don't know whether I'm not concentrating on what I should be, playing carelessly, or something else.

Any help?

>Mark

[guru_of_time]

It doesn't matter if you can write it down because that's using your mind. You need to have your fingers memorize it. Just practice each measure (or even half measure) slowly, and slowly work your way up. If you mess up, go down a click or two and think about why you messed up. After you get one measure perfect, go to the next measure. After you get that one perfect, play the first and then second like you would regularly. Keep repeating until you can play the entire song/section perfectly. Yes, it's tedious, but it works. Make sure that your really paying attention while working and not drifting off.

There's my 2 cents. Good luck!

[hans]

Hello,

sorry, what is "Bernhard's method"? Was there any thread in this forum? How can I find it?

Thanks
Hans

[mound]

Hello,

sorry, what is "Bernhard's method"? Was there any thread in this forum? How can I find it?

Thanks
Hans

Bernhard has close to 3000 posts on these boards, all incredibly informative.  Do yourself a favor and search for posts by him.. Make sure you have a few days free to read 

M_B - have you learned each voice seperately? "bernhards method" is a bit different for counterpoint - he has even outlined in great detail how to teach/learn this specific piece.

[Baohui]

It doesn't matter if you can write it down because that's using your mind. You need to have your fingers memorize it.

I would disagree completely. Your method involves building muscle memory which is horribly unreliable. Piano playing starts in the mind, it is your brain that coordinates everything - you can't think with your fingers.

think about why you messed up

This is better advice. This is what I would do:

1)Diagnose your problems - play a voice and remember where you mess up or hesitate.
2)In your mind imagine playing this bar, see the keys or notes. Usually I find that the same parts are bad.
3)Still mentally, concentrate on the notes that are problematic. (it will probably only be a couple of them or a single transition). Move between them 'playing' them perfectly in your mind.
4)Build up the rest of the phrase.
5)Go back to the piano and play it.

If you keep messing up in many places go back to smaller sections and practice them individually. Concentrate on mental practice.

[hans]

@ mound

Thanks,

Bernhard has close to 3000 posts on these boards, all incredibly informative. ... Make sure you have a few days free to read 

I wanted to avoid making (solving?) a puzzle and had thought there was an explicite summary of his method in any posting (or maybe a hint of a book of him).

See you
Hans

[Baohui]

Hans, take a look at this post:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=c0c8bf070bde138c6fc157f8ed25243b&topic=5767.msg56133#msg56133

[TheHammer]

As well as this book by C.C. Chang, available for free on the internet. It is often referred to on this forum and deals with an approach similar to Bernhard's.


 https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm

Most interesting read, have fun!


And on topic I agree with baohui. Muscle memory is nothing to rely on (experience speaking here!). Also good advice on mental practice which can help for trouble passages.

[hans]

Hello baohui and TheHammer,

thanks for your replies. The "C.C.Chang-method" is already downloaded for few months and it should be my next question what's the meaning here in the forum about it.

Tschüss
Hans

[M_B]

Mound, I did follow Bernhard's way for counterpoint, and more specfically his exact outline for the invention.

>Mark

[guru_of_time]

I would disagree completely. Your method involves building muscle memory which is horribly unreliable. Piano playing starts in the mind, it is your brain that coordinates everything - you can't think with your fingers.

If you have the piece well memorized, then you shouldn't even have to think about it. Concentrating too hard causes the fingers to mess up. Muscle memory is very important and you should be able to play it on auto-pilot. That's why the fingers are so important. It's best to practice with your eyes closed or where a bandana or something over them. Be able to play it without looking. It's just like dribbling a basketball.

[asyncopated]

I am working on Bach's Invention No. 1 currently, and am using it as a piece to learn Bernhard's method. I am currently in the HS stage measures 1 - 15. The piece isn't challenging technique-wise as I have been playing for quite a few years (wasted as they might be), but it really brings out a flaw that has always been in my playing. Each of the 7 times I repeat the measures, I mess up in a different place. I got the full seven repeats because its never perfect.

I know the piece really well, though. If I had blank sheetmusic infront of me, I could write it out. I don't know whether I'm not concentrating on what I should be, playing carelessly, or something else.

Any help?

>Mark

Try this --

Make sure you are completely relaxed -- there is no tension in your shoulders and your arms feel heavy.

Take take a couple of deep breaths, and expel everything.  Now imaging as you exhale that your arms start to feel light. 

Take one more breath, and lift your hand are freely, getting reading to play.  As you exhale start the piece = c d e f d e c g...

Now, keep breathing and dance to the piece.  Move your whole body as well as your hands as if you are dancing.

Tell me if it works!

al.

[Ruro]

It's best to practice with your eyes closed or where a bandana or something over them. Be able to play it without looking. It's just like dribbling a basketball.

Oh my giddy arm! No wonder I can't stop screwing up ANY of my pieces! Usually they include a fast pace where I go wrong, so it could be a bad habit or lack of technique still :/ But I swear I should be able to play innocence perfectly... I rarely do it eyes closed. With you saying that, I shall do that more! I just worry about making more mistakes.... and getting used to mistakes :O
And I admit... the frustration from this does make me concentrate alot ^_^;; Perhaps I can finaly MASTER a piece!

Thankyou! ^_^