Chang's finger independence exercise

[mosis]

Chang describes a finger independence exercise in which you press down all five fingers as a chord, and then play each individual note 3-5 times while keeping the other fingers depressed.

Now, is this a useful exercise, and if it is, how long should it be practiced a day? "Once a practice session" is a little vague.

[Rach3]

Sounds just like the Liszt technical exercizes, book I. My understanding is you spend very little time on FI exercizes - Dohnanyi rcommends (as I remember) 15? minutes a day.

[lostinidlewonder]

This is something you should do if you don't know how to hold your hand balanced at the piano. If one tends to tilt the hand towards the finger playing then this excersise forces that your hand maintains balance. Very much a beginners excersise, nothing to devote a lot of effort to.

[xvimbi]

I personally don't like these exercises, and it's one of the very few instances where I disagree with what is presented in Chang's book. Well, he says "Once a practice session", so I am not that upset

The biggest problem with this type of exercise is that one will be playing with constant anatgonistic muscle action, i.e. one set of muscles is engaged while an antagonistic set is also engaged. This is one of the most common reasons for injury, but like it is with everything that involves somewhat extreme measures, it is only really harmful if done repeatedly over a long period of time, such as in an exercise. Therefore, if you do these exercises, do them as little as possible. There is no denying that situtations like these exist in music; perhaps not where all the fingers are depressed and only one plays, but one, two or, three is quite common.

I also disagree with lostinidlewonder's post. I believe it is imperative that one tilts the hand towards the finger that is playing. It's not a bad thing; on the contrary, it's in fact the correct way to play. In other words, the finger that is playing should be aligned with the forearm and the entire arm, wrist, hand combination needs to be aligned such that force can be directed specifically to the finger in question. In other words, if you, for example, have a simple five-finger scale fragment, don't hold the hand still while playing it. Hand, wrist and forearm should be active at all times during even such a seemingly simple pattern.

[bearzinthehood]

I personally don't like these exercises, and it's one of the very few instances where I disagree with what is presented in Chang's book. Well, he says "Once a practice session", so I am not that upset

The biggest problem with this type of exercise is that one will be playing with constant anatgonistic muscle action, i.e. one set of muscles is engaged while an antagonistic set is also engaged. This is one of the most common reasons for injury, but like it is with everything that involves somewhat extreme measures, it is only really harmful if done repeatedly over a long period of time, such as in an exercise. Therefore, if you do these exercises, do them as little as possible. There is no denying that situtations like these exist in music; perhaps not where all the fingers are depressed and only one plays, but one, two or, three is quite common.

I also disagree with lostinidlewonder's post. I believe it is imperative that one tilts the hand towards the finger that is playing. It's not a bad thing; on the contrary, it's in fact the correct way to play. In other words, the finger that is playing should be aligned with the forearm and the entire arm, wrist, hand combination needs to be aligned such that force can be directed specifically to the finger in question. In other words, if you, for example, have a simple five-finger scale fragment, don't hold the hand still while playing it. Hand, wrist and forearm should be active at all times during even such a seemingly simple pattern.

An old topic, but I'd like to revisit it briefly.  If you're going for absolute evenness at speed then it make sense to me to use the wrist and arm only as  "facilitator".  That is, to bring the finger into the optimal position from which it can strike.  The actual force of hitting the key is still a task for the finger, as striking each and every note with a full arm motion is perhaps impossible at speed, and the resulting sound will definately not be even, even if such a method is possible.

Of course then, supposing you have certain patterns which resemble a 3-4 or 4-5 trill in a melodic line, then it seems necessary to have at least a sufficient level of finger independence in order to be able to play these with as little motion and tension as possible.  Shouldn't we then, train this kind of independence, if not in the form of explicit exercises, then with pieces in the repertory that contain passages with 3-4 trills and so forth?

[xvimbi]

An old topic, but I'd like to revisit it briefly.  If you're going for absolute evenness at speed then it make sense to me to use the wrist and arm only as  "facilitator".  That is, to bring the finger into the optimal position from which it can strike.  The actual force of hitting the key is still a task for the finger, as striking each and every note with a full arm motion is perhaps impossible at speed, and the resulting sound will definately not be even, even if such a method is possible.

Any note played on the piano has contributions from the arm, hand, and finger (and toes as Richter correctly remarked). There are very few instances where finger movement alone must be used, however, there are lots of instances where arm and hand movements alone are entirely sufficient. I think it is common to assume that arm and hand play a lesser role when the speed increases, but as you said, only their motions become less visible. Their impact is still enormous. The mere moving of the hand across the keyboard can be used to impart momentum on the keys through the fingers. The same with small wrist movements. Taubman goes to extremes here in that they are promoting preparative hand rotations even for each individual note in a fast scale. Wow, I can only say, if that's even possible, but watching Edna Golandsky play a scale is a sight to behold. However, it is clear that fingers play an active role as well, in addition to being mere extensions to the palm. So, overall, I would say, one should make an effort to use the large muscles as much as possible and resort to finger movements only as much as necessary, e.g. for evening out sound, for stressing individual notes in a group, trills.

Of course then, supposing you have certain patterns which resemble a 3-4 or 4-5 trill in a melodic line, then it seems necessary to have at least a sufficient level of finger independence in order to be able to play these with as little motion and tension as possible.  Shouldn't we then, train this kind of independence, if not in the form of explicit exercises, then with pieces in the repertory that contain passages with 3-4 trills and so forth?

It is imperative for a pianist to develop finger independence, but one has to be clear what that term means and how to achieve it. Finger independence means to make a finger strike a key independently from the other fingers. It does not have to, and cannot, be achieved by moving from the knuckles only.

[bearzinthehood]

It is imperative for a pianist to develop finger independence, but one has to be clear what that term means and how to achieve it. Finger independence means to make a finger strike a key independently from the other fingers. It does not have to, and cannot, be achieved by moving from the knuckles only.

Perhaps, but, given that in general the goal in refining a passage is to make the knuckles move as little as possible, how is it possible to play with "perfect" clarity notes in a passage without being able to strike with any finger without causing the surrounding ones to play?

We can say that we don't impose that ideal, perhaps a small amount of compromise is possible, but generally a speed wall will be created that's proportional to the size of the motion involved.  You can talk about arm weight and how the fingers are pivots, but no matter what kind of motion occurs from the knuckle on up, the most fundamental contact with the keyboard still comes as a result of finger flexion and extension.

[xvimbi]

We can say that we don't impose that ideal, perhaps a small amount of compromise is possible, but generally a speed wall will be created that's proportional to the size of the motion involved.  You can talk about arm weight and how the fingers are pivots, but no matter what kind of motion occurs from the knuckle on up, the most fundamental contact with the keyboard still comes as a result of finger flexion and extension.

Finger flexion and extension are of little help if one can't get the fingers to the right key at the right time in the right orientation.

[bearzinthehood]

Finger flexion and extension are of little help if one can't get the fingers to the right key at the right time in the right orientation.

Of course I agree with this, as stated in my first post in this topic.  I'm thinking about, even in a simple scale, when finger 4 is in a position to strike it must strike it must be able to descend independently of fingers 3 and 5.

[bernhard]

Of course I agree with this, as stated in my first post in this topic.  I'm thinking about, even in a simple scale, when finger 4 is in a position to strike it must strike it must be able to descend independently of fingers 3 and 5.

And it does. the sharing of tendons (which makes independence anatomically impossilbe) only applies to lifting the fingers. So lifting - if at all necessary - should always be done by the arm/forearm/hand. And the best way to do it is rotation of the forearm (but there are other options as well).

Have a look here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7887.msg79326.html#msg79326
(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)

And this thread may interest you as well:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7341.msg114168.html#msg114168
(repeated note-groups for difficult passages – correct technique is never uncomfortable – rotation as the solution to 5th finger weakness – criticism to misguided technical exercises – trusting the unconscious)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bearzinthehood]

(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)

Interesting, the example you gave about lifting was very potent.  Now, the question is, is it possible to do a 3-4 trill with finger 3 on a white key and finger 4 on a black key?  Based on what you are saying, this would be impossible without a pronounced wrist motion.  If we encounter such a situation would it be advantageous to try our best to avoid such a fingering?  What if alternative fingerings are costly in other ways?  Is it ok to "slide" the finger 4 off of the black key when it's done playing, thereby achieving the effect of lifting the finger?  But then again, this would only work if finger 4 has to play once....

It seems like there are so many dimensions in which to vary our motions, it's often difficult to find what is optimal. 

[xvimbi]

It seems like there are so many dimensions in which to vary our motions, it's often difficult to find what is optimal. 

That's why it is important to keep exploring different and new options. That's true not just for movements, but also for the interpretation of pieces when re-learning them. It's true for life in general! Wow, what a deep insight!

[bernhard]

(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)

Interesting, the example you gave about lifting was very potent.  Now, the question is, is it possible to do a 3-4 trill with finger 3 on a white key and finger 4 on a black key?  Based on what you are saying, this would be impossible without a pronounced wrist motion.  If we encounter such a situation would it be advantageous to try our best to avoid such a fingering?  What if alternative fingerings are costly in other ways?  Is it ok to "slide" the finger 4 off of the black key when it's done playing, thereby achieving the effect of lifting the finger?  But then again, this would only work if finger 4 has to play once....

It seems like there are so many dimensions in which to vary our motions, it's often difficult to find what is optimal. 

Yes, if I can avoid trilling with 3-4 or 4-5 I will. However sometime it is impossible, and one has to do it.

Rotation is one way - and make a difference between rotation motion and rotation exertion. On the second one, you will not see any movement whatsoever and you may be fooled into thinking the fingers are doing all the work (but the internal feeling is completley different).

Then there is a "walking" movement (easy to show, difficult to describe), where the fingers are like little legs walking back and forth on the keys. Again, as this movement becomes minimized, you may not realise what it actually is, and mistake it for pure finger movement. (However if you look ath the elbow of the piaist, you will be able to see clearly the back and forth movements even though they may not be visible at the hand).

Better than either movement is to combine both so that you can decrease the range of movement of each. When you do this, the wrist/arm movement may truly become invisible.

And of course you can slide the 4th finger if this will provide you the result you want. No need to limit oneself unnecessarily.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bearzinthehood]

Thank you very much both of you for making me realize something crucial about my own anatomy. 

[joachimf]

Question, Bernhard: You say lifting the fingers is the only limit, but I'm not able to, for example bend all the joints in the 4. finger and touch the inside of my palm without all the other fingers bending as well (while the thumb gets stiff). This happens, though, only when I try to bend the last joint on the finger. This actually happens to all my fingers, even the thumb which I thought were more independent (and the 5. finger). When I try to bend all joints in the thumb the second finger is forced to join... I know a lot of people don't have this issue and I don't really think it matters for my playing either. I'm just curious since we're in on the topic. =)

[xvimbi]

Question, Bernhard: You say lifting the fingers is the only limit, but I'm not able to, for example bend all the joints in the 4. finger and touch the inside of my palm without all the other fingers bending as well (while the thumb gets stiff). This happens, though, only when I try to bend the last joint on the finger. This actually happens to all my fingers, even the thumb which I thought were more independent (and the 5. finger). When I try to bend all joints in the thumb the second finger is forced to join... I know a lot of people don't have this issue and I don't really think it matters for my playing either. I'm just curious since we're in on the topic. =)

Touching the palm, interesting... let's see.

when I bend the thumb, nothing else moves
when I bend finger 2, finger 3 and finger 4 (to a lesser extent) also bend a bit
when I bend finger 3, finger 4 bends a lot, fingers 2 and 5 are not affected
when I bend finger 4, fingers 2,3,5 bend a little, and I get some pain in the wrist

I'll start a poll with people around me.

[joachimf]

Clearly we have differences here. When I bend the thumb as far as it is possible to bend it, both finger 2 and 3 are affected (finger 3 less affected than finger 2, but still noticeable). In fact, all my fingers are less independent than yours, xvimbi.
I wonder why this is? And if it's possible - in some excersize or method - to (over time) eliminate these dependencies?

What happens when you bend finger 5 as much as possible? In my case finger 3 and 4 are affected, but I'm able to keep the 2. finger and thumb still. Have you noticed, that if you try using your other hand to hold the fingers that are affected still and straight, it is impossible?

[xvimbi]

What happens when you bend finger 5 as much as possible? In my case finger 3 and 4 are affected, but I'm able to keep the 2. finger and thumb still. Have you noticed, that if you try using your other hand to hold the fingers that are affected still and straight, it is impossible?

Oops, I forgot finger 5: finger 4 bends as well, almost as much as finger 5. Finger 3 bends a little bit, finger 2 even less; no effect on the thumb.

I do find the total bending a bit extreme and probably not very important for playing the piano, because one doesn't bend that much. I think a better test is to put the hand on a five-finger pattern and then try to depress individual fingers and see how that affects the neighboring fingers. Do not lift the fingers back up, but simply relax the muscles and let the key come up again on its own. That would be the most economic solution, because no muscle action is required to return the fingers to their starting position. Some people claim that is really all that's required, and that even at high speed, one does not really have to actively lift the fingers. The only thing one has to do is not depress them. I think that is in fact an excellent exercise.

[joachimf]

Yes I agree. Speaking of it, that actually sounds very much like the first excersize in Cortot's daily gymnastics my teacher wants me to do:
you are supposed to place your hand on different patterns (there are four in the book), but only in silent contact with the keys, resting lightly on their surface(in difference to many others where all the keys are supposed to be pressed down). Then (quote) "lower each finger affected by the execution of the semi-quavers, counting four on each crotchet:
 - 1, to strike the note,
 - 2, to press the finger down as far as the key will go (without cramping or stiffening the other fingers)
 - 3, to let the key rise with finger,
 - 4, to cease the pressure.

[bearzinthehood]

Heh, I know, I'm sorry, I keep bumping this topic.

So...

Going back to the dependence of fingers 3-5.  I can lift 3 and 4 together, independently of the other fingers.  This means that I can do a 4-5 trill quit easily while holding down 1 and 2.  I have a very tough time lifting fingers 4 and 5 together while keeping the rest still, which is not so good for 3-4 trills while holding down 1 and 2.  My teacher, however, can easily lift 4 and 5 together, just about as high as he wants, keeping the rest still, without any trouble whatsoever.  How can I train this kind of independence?  Is this kind of independence an innate thing?  Or is it something like moving your ears that's seemingly impossible if you haven't been doing it?