Algorithm for learning hard and long pieces

[kghayesh]

I was wondering whether there is any algorithm or flowchart (like those in the Software industry) that one can follow in the process of learning new pieces especially if they were long and hard (15+ pages).

I know that there are main points (milestones) in this process.
- Sight read it slowly
- Know the technically hard parts and devise appropriate fingering for them
- Memorize the piece part by part
- Polish it by working on expression, dynamics and those stuff.

Advice pleeez....

[kghayesh]

 Well, i guess either nobody knows the answer of this question coz it is too hard or nobody wants to answer this question coz it is too dummy.....

I am really screwed up and i have 3 pieces to learn as soon as possible. (Pathetique, Chopin first Ballade, Revolutionary Etude)
I don't know how to plan my practice coz there is tonnes of work to do

Please i need a reply

[mound]

As Bernhard would say "your question is too big"

There is no specific "algorithm" or pre-defined set of steps to follow to master any and all pieces. It just doesn't work that way. There exists a vast array of problems (technical and musical) which must be solved for any given piece. To solve these problems, you need tools. What kind of tools? Practice tools. Analysis tools. Listening tools.  There are all kinds of tools you can use to solve any given problem. 

Those 3 pieces you mentioned you have to learn as soon as possible, they are by no means beginner pieces. How long have you been playing for? Surely you must have developed some sense of what is required of you to learn new pieces, if you are at a level to be learning those 3 big pieces "as soon as possible"


Here are some links:

Strategy For Success:
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2526.msg21829.html#msg21829

Fundamentals of Piano Practice by Chuan C. Chang
https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm

I suggest you read much of what Bernhard has said already on these forums. His posts provide a wealth of information on these "tools" and how to use them effectively. Chang's book is entirely devoted to this topic.

-Paul

[kghayesh]

Well...first of all, thanks for replying after all this neglection....

I have been playing for about three years. The 3 pieces listed constitue a big leap in my repretoire but that was my teacher's suggestion (of course she knows better)...

And BTW, i don't mean by as soon as possible that i am gonna play them in concert next week. I just don't wanna spend much time learning them, i mean that i wanna learn them at the fastest pace.

[TheHammer]

Well, i guess either nobody knows the answer of this question coz it is too hard or nobody wants to answer this question coz it is too dummy.....

I am really screwed up and i have 3 pieces to learn as soon as possible. (Pathetique, Chopin first Ballade, Revolutionary Etude)
I don't know how to plan my practice coz there is tonnes of work to do

Please i need a reply

Okay, now don't flip out and stay calm! You wanted to play the Ballade right, now you have the work...

I agree that there is no general "works-for-everyone" approach. The things that aplly to most pieces you already enlisted (except for listening to as many recordings as possible, and devising one's own technical exercises according to the difficult sections, ask your teacher... perhaps he is just giving you Hanon, which would be not so good IMO).

Now, I can say you something about your pieces.

Beethoven. Your longest work, not the hardest though. There are still some spots you should start on now.
I go from beginning to end, and please search the forum as well, I am sure there are hundreds of threads dealing with some technical issues here.

1st mov. sonata form, Allegro with Grave introduzione, reapparing throughout the movement in varied forms.

Grave: Disregard it the first weeks, it is not so difficult. When you start to learn it, make a harmonic analysis to memorize easier. Start learning the runs in the right hand with the correct accentation. Especially take a look at the downward chromatic scale at the end, these are 128th notes...

Allegro: Start working now! The biggest problem for most (perhaps not for you) is the LH broken octave accompaniment. Try to devise technical exercises to deal with that, and, most important, try to find a movement, most likely forearm rotation, that allows you to do these octaves for any time. This is a matter of endurance. And make sure you always know where you are in the measure, so you want to accent the first notes perhaps. Search the forum. Likewise, the RH of the first theme (double notes) and all similar sections (reprise) needs to be practiced HS a very long time. Also here, make sure you play 100% accurate, metronome practice helps a lot.
Next part is this hand crossing thing, you should at least learn RH from start so you know where you have to land, LH is easy. You find some Trillos in the Rh, can be an issue.
But again pay special attention to measures: 89-110. It is crucial that you get the right mov. that allows you to play at speed at to bring out the outer notes!

The development is quite the same, now the octaves are in the RH. Recapitulation is also quite the same, but a bit transposed, but no new techniques.
So if you can play the first 4 pages, you are done with the first mov.

Second movement is quite easy. But I still recommend that you start PERFORMING this as soon as possible. Bringing out the melody here is quite difficult and requieres some sense for interpretation (as well as the Ballade, but that is another story). So you should make some practice away from the piano, outlining this mov., listening, memorizing without playing. There are some chords though and  turns that may be diffificult, but nowhere near the other stuff.

3rd mov. Besides eveness, you should look how easy these triplets are for you. Depending on your overall speed these might become an issue. And you should begin repracticing the Cminor scale downward, starting at the F (RH), and I think at the end there is also Fminor. After the theme is played the second time (around measure 80), there are some staccato runs in 8th, again, depending on your speed these might become leggiero, so start working on these. Overal, you have to sight-read through all of these to make clear which are the most difficult for you. My first weeks of practice would look so (this is just the order, do not assume the numbers stand for one week).

1. Start practicing LH broken octave. Harmonic analysis of all mov.
2. Start practicing all the RH runs in the first and third movement, trying to spot and work on the difficult LH things in the 3rd mov. (alernating practice).
3. Memorizin Grave and Adagio from the sheet. Practicing RH from Allegro first theme.
4. Devising exercises to find the correct movement to bring the outer notes out (1st mov.)
5.... depending on you

These four, except perhaps for the memorizing, are crucial, the rest depends, but I think you will end up having to practice everything... (Well, you should of course try to find the redundant passages in the first place!, so that you are not double practicing the theme of the rondo, or something...)


Revolutionary Etude

Start working solely on the Left Hand. The first page is really easy and makes up most of the rest. Therefore go straight to the other sections (i.e. 25-40, and 65-end, so, the 40-65 are the same as 1-25). Note how there are perhaps three or four different movements for the entire LH, but always transposed. Make sure you understand what your hand should do. Do it and transpose, not with the sheet music. Also, eveness and power are important, search the forum. The RH is as you can see, mostly chordal playing. And it is far from difficult, so you perhaps want to concentrate on the other pieces before, besides you have to play HS anyway.

I don't want to say anything for the Ballade, as I am learning it right now myself. Just want to see hw it goes. Makes sure thought that you start with the Coda and the various RH runs. The LH is more jumpy, so of course you have to practice this at well, but for me, runs and arpeggios are more difficult. And memorisation can be beneficial. And always pay attention how phrases are repeated, that occurs for nearly every phrase, so you can save some time.

Good luck. Scherzo would have still been easier

PS: Don't be disappointed if it turns out more difficult than expected. Therefore it is a big leap. It is by no means easy, as I pointed out in the other thread. Seriously, if you think you will have the sonata AND the ballade before january, that would be quite fast I think.
And ask and listen to your teacher.

[kghayesh]

Seriously, if you think you will have the sonata AND the ballade before january, that would be quite fast I think.

January?    I thought i can finish memorizing them and work on polishing them around September or something...

BTW thanks so much for this reply

[TheHammer]

Yes, of course I have no clue how your exact abilities are, so I don't want to discourage you. Try to give your best and prove me wrong! 
I was just thinking that there is some big disparitaty between Mozart K545 and Pathetique, and the Nocturnes and the First Ballade. And I meant that you would be finished, that is up to performance level before January. Sure you can memorize it until September you can do anything! (And, btw, if you make it to memorize it and have all the notes down at least slowly, you might be done before the end of the year...but don't forget that especially with the Ballade, one could spent months alone on the interpretational issue).
And after all, that is just my opinion anyway...

[bernhard]

Yes, as Mound said above, your question is too big. Anyway:

Start here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2255.msg19129.html#msg19129
(practising long pieces – Good discussion if one should or should not listen to CDs - Slow motion practice, comparison with walking/running)

Then:

First step is to get rid of the idea that “long and hard” pieces exist. They don’t. Long and hard pieces are a perception and unless you change that perception to “easy and manageable” you will never be able to play them. This is the mental part of this step.
The practical part of this step is to carefully analyse the music in order to :

1.   discover repeated sections (e.g Chopin’s scherzo no. 2 has over 800 bars. After you analyse it you will find out that it reduces to about 70 bars)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7810.msg80415.html#msg80415
(How to organise the breaking down of a piece over several days. Examples: CPE Bach Fantasia, Blow Sarabande, Chopin Cantabile; Chopin Scherzo no. 2)

2.   Simplify the piece by separating it in layers and learning the layers separately. This is a very necessary step in counterpoint music (e.g. Bach), but can be extremely helpful in other music as well:

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,9285.msg94312.html#msg94312
(outlining: example – with score – Chopin etude op. 25 no. 1)


3.   Break the piece in small manageable sections that can be fully mastered in a 15 – 20 minutes practice session. Organise the order of learning from the most difficult sections to the easiest.

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7664.msg77057.html#msg77057
(How to break a piece in sessions – Example: Invention no. 1).

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7810.msg80415.html#msg80415
(How to organise the breaking down of a piece over several days. Examples: CPE Bach Fantasia, Blow Sarabande, Chopin Cantabile; Chopin Scherzo no. 2)

Most of this work is done away from the piano, using a notation software on the computer. As you do so, keep listening to CDs and to the midis associated to the notation you are creating.

When you finally get to the piano to actually practice the movements you should already know your piece back to front and have a pretty good idea of the sound you are aiming to produce, so you do not waste time learning the wrong thing. What you do once you get to the piano, is detailed here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1867.msg14268.html#msg14268
(Getting technique from pieces – several important tricks: hand memory, dropping notes, repeated note-groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4988.msg47452.html#msg47452
(Summary of links to optimise practising and planning)

Finally have a look here where many isolated aspects of the above are discussed in depth:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3561.msg31700.html#msg31700
(Questions about Bernhard’s method – Bernhard’s answers – mostly about the 7 X 20 principle, how do you know when you mastered a section, when to use the methods, and when they are not necessary – investigating the reasons for difficult)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4689.msg44184.html#msg44184
(Bernhard answers questions and elucidates further about: 20 minutes – practice starts when you get it right – definition of mastery : learned – mastered – omniscience – Aim for easy – final speed in practice must be faster than performance speed – Example: Chopin Op. 10 no. 2 – outline – repeated note groups – HS x HT)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4710.msg44538.html#msg44538
(Bernhard explains once more about 7 x 20 minutes – Progress is the ultimate decider – How to break a piece in practice sessions – Example: Satie gymnopedie – importance of planning – aim at 100 pieces per year – Example: Bach Cm WTC 2 -)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4750.msg45125.html#msg45125
(more details: learned – mastered –omniscience – why repertory must be paramount – how to work on 20 pieces per month – a case for easy repertory – importance of discipline and of having a plan – analogy of mastering a piece and making wine – musicality is ultimately good taste – Example: Beethoven op. 49 no. 2- A list of progressive repertory to lead to Rach prelude op. 32 no. 5 – mastery is when it is easy)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4797.msg45744.html#msg45744
(No skipped steps – Bernhard enlightens further and tells the usual places where students go wrong – Ht x HS)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4858.msg46087.html#msg46087
(Paul’s report on B’s method. Feedback from Bernhard including: HS x HT – Example: Lecuona’s malaguena – 7x20 – need to adjust and adapt – repeated note-groups – importance of HS – hand memory – 7 items only in consciousness – playing in automatic pilot - )

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5177.msg49229.html#msg49229
(more on 7x20 – what it means to master a passage -

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5298.msg50376.html#msg50376
(alternative to the chord trick – Rhythm variations  - repeated note-groups – starting with the difficult bars – how to break down a piece in sessions – ways to tackle speed that do not involve the chord trick)

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.