Scales and correct finger position

[chadefa1]

I everyone. I am very new to this forum, and to piano in general. In fact, I have just started. It is however with much enthusiasm that I am practicing scales and Hanon.  Yet, before I go on, I would really appreciate answers to two questions:

1. Scales and Hanon: I don't want to start a thread on the utility/uselessness of Hanon. Somehow however, I believe that if I practice scales and Hanon intensively and regularly for a couple of months (or at least weeks), my skill should improve and it should make playing pieces easier in the future. The alternative would be to start learning some small pieces now. I have fun with scales and Hanon (yes, yes), but I wonder if I should include some "real" pieces in my training (say, during the next 2 months).

2. Reading many posts on this forum, I am scared of getting bad habits, which will be all the harder to suppress later on. Unfortunately I cannot afford piano classes and was therefore hoping that generous forum members would be willing to take a look at my "performance" (well, a right hand C scale really...) on a video: https://www.umich.edu/~chadefau/piano.avi  (about 700k). It's just 15 sec of video, to see if my position is correct.

I appreciate any comment.
Thanks so much,
Tom

[bernhard]

It is however with much enthusiasm that I am practicing scales and Hanon. 

Curb your enthusiasm.

I watched your video. You have three main problems:

1.   You are passing the thumb under. Have a look here for the alternative:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1918.msg15015.html#msg15015
(Thumb under/over – detailed explanation – Fosberry flop)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3100.msg27113.html#msg27113
(thumb over – hand displacement – practising with awareness – awareness is not thinking – learning by imitation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166
(Thumb over is a misnomer: it consists of co-ordinating four separate movements).


2.    In order to negotiate the smaller size of the thumb you are “twisting” your hand and “reaching” for the key with the thumb. Instead use your arm to position your thumb by moving it forwards.


3.   You have a general misalignment of the joints (possibly caused by trying to play with your fingers, rather than using the whole playing apparatus to direct your fingers). I am afraid that Hanon tends to direct on into this sort of (bad) technique.

It is not really possible to tell you what to do. You must have someone demonstrate the correct movements (or watch a video where such movements are demonstrated).

In the meantime, read about it here:


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/board,4/topic,4880.3.html#msg46319
(discusses how to acquire technique and what technique actually is)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2024.msg16583.html#msg16583
(how to aim the pinky – using the arm to move the fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2033.msg16635.html#msg16635
(finger strength)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2076.msg17157.html#msg17157
(Speed – the 3 most important factors)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2079.msg17335.html#msg17335
(Hand tension – not using fingers to play)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2359.msg20442.html#msg20442
(Fingering placement on the keys)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2230.msg20686.html#msg20686
(Octaves and fast octaves – excellent post by Robert Henry)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2477.msg21403.html#msg21403
(Double thirds – the movement)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2502.msg21594.html#msg21594
(Independence of the 3rd and 4thfinger – it is impossible, one should work towards the illusion of independence: it is all arm work)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2507.msg21688.html#msg21688
(Round fingers – the role of fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1808.msg23879.html#msg23879
(Ultra fast arpeggios – slow practice x slow motion practice – good post by Herve – Abby whiteside is also mentioned)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2814.msg24872.html#msg24872
(How a student’s physicality affects teaching – discussion on arm x fingers – moving from the centre: tantien and taichi – Seymour Fink gets discussed as well)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2809.msg25013.html#msg25013
(Body movement – piano playing and martial arts)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2948.msg25927.html#msg25927
(Czerny x Scarlatti to acquire technique – Ted gives an excellent contribution)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2973.msg25970.html#msg25970
(How to create a cantabile effect – several approaches: creating a mental image, outlining, the three basic ways to bring out a melody)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3036.msg26638.html#msg26638
(trills and melody in the same hand)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3530.msg31559.html#msg31559
(how to bring out a melody – 3 different ways – Importance of a mental representation: hear in your mind and the fingers will comply)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3726.msg33453.html#msg33453
(playing with curved fingers – worry less about movement and more about sound)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3987.msg36197.html#msg36197
(etudes and alternatives to them)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4082.msg37362.html#msg37362
(one cannot learn technique in a vacuum. At the same time one cannot simply play pieces – comparison with tennis)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4182.msg38775.html#msg38775
(Hanon: pros and cons – Robert Henry’s opinion)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4164.msg39149.html#msg39149
(CC Chang and relaxation for playing fast passages)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4282.msg39831.html#msg39831
(How to increase speed: slowly using metronome x fast with chord attack – juggling and skiping rope as examples)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4144.msg40259.html#msg40259
(improving speed of LH – move the whole LH not only fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4385.msg41226.html#msg41226
(technique is personal and relative to the piece – Fosberry flop – the best books on technique)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4734.msg44770.html#msg44770
(how to acquire virtuoso technique – aiming at 100 pieces in five years)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4880.msg46339.html#msg46339
(definition of technique: quote from Fink, Sandor and Pires – Example of the A-E-A arpeggio)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5034.msg47829.html#msg47829
(The finger strength controversy – some excellent posts by xvimbi)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5352.msg50998.html#msg50998
(Exercises x repertory – why technique cannot be isolated from music)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7887.msg79326.html#msg79326
(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7682.msg77042.html#msg77042
(hand independence: how to create a cue system and what is hand memory).

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg84684.html#msg84684
(circular movements to avoid co-contraction)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8322.msg84686.html#msg84686
(speed and muscle tension – 3 important components of speed playing)

 

I wish you good luck.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[chadefa1]

Thank you so much, Bernhard! This is really great advice and comes right before I develop habits. It should be no problem to change it now.
Actually, you have convinced more here of the "nocivity" of Hanon than all the theoretical posts I could read. Or at least, the nocitivity of his playing recommendation. I kept thinking: thou shall not move that wrist, or thou shall play "twinkle little star" for the rest of your life. 

Well, I can see that with a different technique, the ability to play in a fluid fashion is enhanced.

I'll check all these links right away!

Thanks again!
Best,
Tom

[bernhard]

Well, I can see that with a different technique, the ability to play in a fluid fashion is enhanced.

This is exactly it. Do not regard "technique" as some sort of fixed thing you must acquire.

Instead think of technique as a particular way to do something (in piano playing this basically means how to move and fingering - that is, which finger to use in which key).

Aim at a way of doing something that will result in ease and effortlesness.

Naturally this results in a very fluid concept of technique: All techniques (ways of moving) become equally good or bad depending on the context. So, the main quality of technique becomes "appropriateness".

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

And since you are at it, have a look at these threads on scales as well:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2153.msg18525.html#msg18525
(Fingering for chromatic scales)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2313.msg19807.html#msg19807
(Speed of scales – the important factors in speed playing - an alternative fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2533.msg21955.html#msg21955
(an structured plan to learn scales and arpeggios – includes description of repeated note-groups and other tricks -  complete poem that inspired La fille aux cheveux du lin)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756
(unorthodox fingering for all major and minor scales plus an explanation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2701.msg23134.html#msg23134
(Teaching scales – the cluster method and why one should start with B major).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2758.msg23889.html#msg23889
(scales & compositions – the real importance of scales is to develop the concept of key, not exercise)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2920.msg25568.html#msg25568
(how to play superfast scales)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2983.msg26079.html#msg26079
(Best order to learn scales – what does it mean not to play scales outside pieces)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268
(Scales HT, why? – why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical  x logical way of teaching – analogy with aikido – list of piano techniques – DVORAK – realistic x sports martial arts – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3499.msg31548.html#msg31548
(using scales as the basis for free improvisation)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg104249.html#msg104249
(Scaled fingering must be modified according to the piece – Godard op. 149 no.5 – yet another example of the folly of technical exercises)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[chadefa1]

Thanks Bernhard! On top of that, my thumb's joint were starting to be a little bothering, if not painful from this "passing under" process.

Now, what minimum monthly budget would I need to have a teacher look at my "performance" so that I remain focused with a proper technique. Would one lesson every two week, or even one every month be better than nothing, or even a good idea? I can't really afford more with a grad' student budget...

Also, I would imagine that music students at the university would have a good playing ability and might charge me less. Of course, they won't be as qualified as real, experienced teachers, but do you think this would be a good idea? (I really don't think I could go beyond $80-100 / month...)

Thanks again
Best regards,
Tom

[bernhard]

Have a look here to have an idea of how much lessons can cost:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9724.0.html

Videos/books demonstrating proper technique:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,8684.0.html

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5619.0.html

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9666.0.html

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5988.0.html

Taubman teachers:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5597.0.html

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,8947.0.html


Just the tip of the iceberg.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[chadefa1]

Great! From what I here, Taubman would be great for me who can't afford a teacher, plus they have it at my university library, so this is FREE!!
Of course I do not mean to offend any of the teachers here. I know this won't replace real lessons, but if you only knew (well, you probably do!) the budget of a grad' student...

Now, I just have to find a VHS player and a TV set... Oh well, that's a detail!

Thanks again Bernhard. I really envy your students!

Best,
Tom

[xvimbi]

Great! From what I here, Taubman would be great for me who can't afford a teacher, plus they have it at my university library, so this is FREE!!
Of course I do not mean to offend any of the teachers here. I know this won't replace real lessons, but if you only knew (well, you probably do!) the budget of a grad' student...

Now, I just have to find a VHS player and a TV set... Oh well, that's a detail!

If you have the chance, by all means watch the Taubman videos. You will need to repeatedly watch them, because at this point in the game, a lot of it will not make sense. The material is also quite advanced occasionally, so keep at it. It's great that you are trying to incorporate good movements already from the start. So, now you just have to get rid of Hanon, and you are all set

[chadefa1]

Thanks! Yes, I have watched the extracts on their website and it does seem difficult, but I'll take a good look and maybe watch them again in a couple months, when it makes more sense.
As for Hanon, I must say I'm not sure I'll discard the exercises. However, I will ignore their "technique recommendations". I still believe it's a good warm up, and believe it or not I find them ...fun.
I'll be starting on Anna Magdalena now, which should be appropriate for my level although a bit challenging. And it will bring some melody to my room that has been filled by Hanon and scales for the past two days!

Thanks again for all your help, and be sure that I'll be on this forum for a while to read your  (and other people's) post assiduously!

best,
Tom

[rosana]

Ok, this is only slightly related to this thread, but I cannot view the video file piano.avi. Medial player tries to load a codec for it, but fails, and I only hear the sound with no image. Anybody has any idea why? Thanks.

[chadefa1]

Hi Rosana,

I posted a new version, in Mpeg format (however, it has increased in size and the quality is lower...):
www.umich.edu/~chadefau/piano.mpg


I hope it helps

Best,

[rosana]

I was able to see it now, thanks Tom.

Are you planning on posting another video after you do it with the suggestions of Bernhard and others?

[chadefa1]

Well well... I'm getting scared now. I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing, but I'll post a new video soon.

Thanks!
Thomas

[chadefa1]

Ok, here we go. Watching the two videos in a row, I am not sure anymore I have improved... But anyway, you'll find the video at (in mpg format this time):

www.umich.edu/~chadefau/piano2.mpg


Sorry Bernhard, I don't think I do justice to your help... But believe me, I try!

Best,
Thomas

[chadefa1]

I forgot to say that I'm probably deformed because if I put both of my hands facing the desk (fingers slightly curved),  the left one is relatively straight, while the right turns outward naturally. I have to make an effort to make it straight...

This probably explains some of what you see on the video.

Thomas

[xvimbi]

Bernard is right in that only personal lessons with a qualified teacher can help you develop proper technique. Still, I have the following to say:

You need to play much more deeply into the keyboard. Your fingers are at the edge of the keys, which is not good. Put your hand in a natural position (i.e. fingers slightly curved) on CDEFG, such that your thumb is in a comfortable playing position. You should realize that your finger 2 is probably already between the black keys, and finger three is next to the Eb well in the black area. Don't be afraid to play where your fingers fall naturally. This somtimes means that the fingers are all the way in, almost touching the fallboard.

If you want to place your fingertips somewhere else, you have three general options. a) curl your fingers or flatten them; b) angle the hand; c) move the hand into and out of the keyboard without destroying its natural form.

c) is by far the best way. So, even for a simple scale, you must constantly move your hand to place the fingertips. b) is acceptable too, as long as you angle the hand together with the forearm. They should be in a straight line at all times if possible. In other words, you should try to play with pinky-orientation (the pinky forms a straight line with the forearm), not in thumb-orientation (the thumb forms a straight line with the forearm, which is very bad). This means moving your elbows out and in, which requires movements at the shoulders. a) is by far the worst method. Curling fingers is very unnatural and creates a lot of tension.

Having said this, one sometimes must use movements that are not quite compatible with the human playing apparatus, but one should absolutely minimize those.

So, you should use your arms a lot more. They direct your fingers. Your fingers should ideally do very little. Using forearm rotation is now too much to get into. It's well explained and demonstrated on one of the Taubman videos.

Thumb under: this is a movement that is very awkard and unnatural, so try to minimize its use. You will need it for a legato effect at slow speeds, but there are ways to avoid the thumb from moving too much under the palm. They involve rotating quite significantly around the third (or fourth) finger. It looks a bit funny, but feels alright.

You may want to restrict your scales to one octave at the beginning, just to get the hang of the basic movements. Also, at the top of the scale, don't just stop, but immediately play the descending scale, without interruption. "Turning around" is an important aspect

Finally, use a piano sound, not a harpsichord. Only a sound that has dynamic variations will tell you how well you are doing with dynamic eveneness.

Keep us posted!

Cheers.

[rosana]

I think there is a definite improvement since the previous one.  But I will let the real teachers comment on that. Also, it seems you filmed from a different angle and this is a better one. Good luck on your playing .

PS. I also envy Bernhard's students. I might move to the UK one of these days and try to get on his waiting list ....

[chadefa1]

Ok, I really need to see someone do it the proper way. SO, I did two good things today: inquire about a teacher and request the Taubman videos. That should be a start.

Now, thanks a lot xvimbi for the great advice and Rosana for being encouraging. But now, I have a follow up question...:
 "the pinky forms a straight line with the forearm": how can this be. My bench is roughly centered on middle C, with a distance of about 50cm to the piano. Now, if I put my thumb on C, my elbow touches the side of my belly such that alignment with the pinky is impossible. Or I would have to be very far from the piano, so that my entire arm is almost completely straight (right now, it's about a 90 deg angle). If I don't do that, and if I want my fingers to be parallel to the piano, I have to turn my elbow such that my arm becomes aligned with the thumb, not the pinky...

I did not use a harpsichord sound... This is just the way it sounds through both my headphones and the poor camera's microphone... It does sound very nice in the headphones.

I'll work some more, watch the videos, hopefully find an affordable teacher (maybe an exchange: who wants chess lessons or learn about international politics in exchange for piano lessons in Michigan??)  and post other videos!

Thanks all, your comments are truly valuable and are much appreciated

Best,
Thomas

[xvimbi]

"the pinky forms a straight line with the forearm": how can this be. My bench is roughly centered on middle C, with a distance of about 50cm to the piano. Now, if I put my thumb on C, my elbow touches the side of my belly such that alignment with the pinky is impossible. Or I would have to be very far from the piano, so that my entire arm is almost completely straight (right now, it's about a 90 deg angle). If I don't do that, and if I want my fingers to be parallel to the piano, I have to turn my elbow such that my arm becomes aligned with the thumb, not the pinky...

OK, two things: you are sitting too close. The elbows should not touch the sides of your torso. You should be sitting so far back that the elbows can freely travel in front of your torso if necessary. Only then do you have the freedom to play in every region of the keyboard without running into cramped positions.

Second, your fingers should be in line with your forearm, but all this does not have to be colinear with the keys. You don't have to have your arms and fingers at 90 degrees to the keyboard. Not at all. First and foremost, your movements must be biomechanically correct. You will often find that hitting keys at 45 degrees is much better and allows you to move fluently from one key to the next.

However, you are right about one important observation: it is difficult to play in the middle of the keyboard! So, for practicing scales or any other movement pattern, shift an octave or two to the right for the right hand, and to the left for the left hand. Ultimately, however, you will have to spend a lot of time in the middle section. Refer to the above paragraph about the angle between arm and keyboard. You have also discovered another way, namely moving backwards with your torso. So, not only will you have to constantly move your arms in and out to position your fingertips, but you also have to constantly move your torso backwards and forwards (at the hip joint, not at the waist!). You move it in when the hands play at the extreme ends of the keyboard, and you move it out when you play in the middle. Now, this is not as dramatic as it sounds. Ideally, all movements should be evenly distributed between all joints involved, from the hip joint to the last finger joint. When you do this, the movement around each joint will be very little. It often looks as if nothing moves. When watching advanced pianists, one often gets the impression that only the fingers move. Don't get fooled - everything moves, but the movements are small and can only be detected when one slows down the film, if at all.

I did not use a harpsichord sound... This is just the way it sounds through both my headphones and the poor camera's microphone... It does sound very nice in the headphones.

OK.

I'll work some more, watch the videos, hopefully find an affordable teacher (maybe an exchange: who wants chess lessons or learn about international politics in exchange for piano lessons in Michigan??)  and post other videos!

So, you play chess... hmm, what do you thnk about the latest developments in the Botvinnik variation of the Slav?

[chadefa1]

Great, thanks a lot. So, there are now three angels helping me out

So, I've learned three things, which I will apply in my video tomorrow (don't feel forced to watch it, I understand it's terribly dull and you have better things to do!)

1. More distance to the piano: I've tried it and it makes me more comfortable and I don't hit the keys like mad now. Instead, I feel I hit them more... well, better (might be just an impression). With distance, the pinky seems to be better aligned with my forearm, which is good 

2. Shake your body... Well not quite, but accompany my fingers with my body

3. It's incredible how much gets revealed with just a basic scale

4. Where is my chess opening book...?

 I'm having a really hard time finding ANY teacher in Ann Arbor, Michigan. The only one I could find charged $20 per half hour, which is above my budget (I know, it's a very decent rate, but...). The other one was the head of the music department, so I don't even want to know how much he charges. However, I wrote to the "Ann Arbor piano teacher guild", asking if they know anyone willing to teach me.  Hopefully I'll get something our of that.
I'm sure there are tons of musicology student at the university who would want to teach for pocket money, but where to find them???
If I can't find anything better, I'll get 30 minutes 2-3 times in a month. This will avoid me pestering you 

In any event, thank you so much again. It is really nice to "feel" the progress and see how some technical help makes a great difference (hmm I shouldn't say too much, you'll be disappointed by tomorrow's video...).

Best,
Thomas

[rosana]

It's good that you are able to watch the Taubman videos. I am watching them now also, and it amazes me the amount of detail in technique that there is. A lifetime ago , I took several years of piano lessons from 2 different teachers, but I never got that kind of instruction on technique. Their main purpose is to avoid injury and it all seems logical. Without a teacher, though, it seems that it would be hard to put in practice. THe other thing is, how many teachers use those techniques? At any rate, I think the basic points that they have as far as the correct position of hands and fingers and use of forearm rather than just your fingers is extremely useful.  You'll see. And as you saw, xvimbi and bernhard are fantastic resources and so generous with their time.

I know you will find a teacher, Thomas. You seem to have a strong drive to learn. 

Rosana

[chadefa1]

Hi everyone.

I finally seem to have found a teacher and actually... two! So my questions are simple:

1. Should I stick with one, come what may, or alternate between two (one week one, the other another), so that I get different perspectives.

2. One of them has offered to give me a trial lesson, and the other might too if I asked. Should I use this opportunity? Well, of course I should, but on what ground would I then say :"no thanks, your method is really awful", or "you really are an annoying person, no way I'll spend 1/2 h with you every week". This would be really awkward. Of course I could be subtle, but it sounds to me as if the "trial lesson" is some sort of trap out of which people only get out if they are blunt enough...

Any thoughts?

Here is part of the answer from one of the teachers (both are members of the local music teachers' guild):

I have not read the book by Chuan Chang.
In my lessons
I have the students start with a technical exercise or
warm-up. I usually expect my students to be working on
three pieces of music at a time.  Regular practice is
important for progress to be made in music.  I
encourage daily practice.  In the beginning you might
start with a 1/2 hour a day as a goal and gradually
increase the amount of practice time.   

I have had adult students as beginners and I teach
children as well as adults. 

In answer to your question about how long it takes to
play well, it really depends on the amount of time
that you put into the activity.  Everyone progresses
at different speeds.  It also depends on how far you
want to progress musically in order to work on your
own. 


Thank you,
Thomas

[bernhard]

Hi everyone.

I finally seem to have found a teacher and actually... two! So my questions are simple:

1. Should I stick with one, come what may, or alternate between two (one week one, the other another), so that I get different perspectives.

Having two teachers at once, besides not being ethical, will lead to all sorts of problems you do not really want in your life (I will exapnd on this if it is not obvious).

2. One of them has offered to give me a trial lesson, and the other might too if I asked. Should I use this opportunity? Well, of course I should, but on what ground would I then say :"no thanks, your method is really awful", or "you really are an annoying person, no way I'll spend 1/2 h with you every week". This would be really awkward. Of course I could be subtle, but it sounds to me as if the "trial lesson" is some sort of trap out of which people only get out if they are blunt enough...

Yes, have a trial lesson - this will give you a better idea of what it is like. However, it really takes 2 or 3 months for you to truly know if a teacher is for you. In any case, prepare an excuse beforehand so that you can tell the teacher you rejected so that s/he does not feel rejected (or utterly disapointed).

Here is part of the answer from one of the teachers (both are members of the local music teachers' guild):

I have not read the book by Chuan Chang.
In my lessons
I have the students start with a technical exercise or
warm-up. I usually expect my students to be working on
three pieces of music at a time.  Regular practice is
important for progress to be made in music.  I
encourage daily practice.  In the beginning you might
start with a 1/2 hour a day as a goal and gradually
increase the amount of practice time.   

I have had adult students as beginners and I teach
children as well as adults. 

In answer to your question about how long it takes to
play well, it really depends on the amount of time
that you put into the activity.  Everyone progresses
at different speeds.  It also depends on how far you
want to progress musically in order to work on your
own. 


Thank you,
Thomas

This seems a very reasonable answer (although I am a bit shocked with "not knowing Chnag's book" )

Best wishes,
Bernhard.